Ret Traits:
So to sum it up - there is nothing here that is going to let a Captain do 100% more damage on all of their moves. On the contrary - they are increases along the lines of 5% - 15% and are on SPECIFIC SKILLS ONLY. The largest increase these traits provide is a 50% d.
Yes only specific skills but the skills are the 95% of damage skills you the rest is sure strike and maybe a devensive strike if all skills have cd and this is only the fact if you have time to only dps. In situations where you have to heal too you will only use this specific skills.
Georg Schramm "...wir brauchen Idioten sonst frisst keiner Gammelfleisch!"
I usually trait 4 red and the rest is usually whatever is needed for the particular raid. Most of the time I go two yellow and one blue. Saruman is real helpful to switch marks, F/F CM is essential to have extended last stand, and the +5 seconds to To Arms is a very very important trait to have for any DPS race. Every captain should have Now for Wrath traited, if you don't you will have the LM going crazy. Now for Wrath and Tactical Prowess should always be traited. Now going 5 deep for LtC is not worth it and I have never done it. It is more important for my group to always have iDome, fellowship brother, and Oathies. I have gone LtC on some zerg runs for fun, but we have most stuff on farm now, so it is purely for my own ego to see where my DPS is I am planning on going LtC with 3 piece perserveance set to try to get F/F CM with one burg. Having shadow's Lament available every 9 to 13 seconds depending on DPS rotation should allow me to DPS like a poorly geared champ
Having 4 red is extremely important for the extra crit chance. Not only is our strongest heal is unlocked on a crit, but keeping up War Cry is also extremely important. Having more blue will give you stronger heals, but you will get more heals for having 5 red. Especially having the Perserveance set with 6 second rallying cry, 4 Red is the strongest captain setup IMO.
However, I am one of the few people in my kin that has a main captain, and I am usually a tad more offensive because I have top end gear and spend a lot of time doing so. Depending on content, some captains in our kin will go more blue and even HoH. Sometimes we even have a captain trait SoD.
So let's examine this logically... and as a result from Red Traits a Lead the Charge captain can:
Do their battleshout 5 seconds faster - Do 5% more damage on their routing cry - Do 10% more damage with their Pressing Attacks or Devasting Blows - Do 15% more damage on their Blade of Elendil - Do 50% more damage with their Shadow's Lament. They will aslo have an extra 5% melee crit and an extra 15% Melee Skill Critical Multiplier.
Now while all of this is significant - it's not so huge that it will turn your Captain into some incredible offensive raiding machine that's obviously better than all other Captains. All of the damage increases for the Captain here are directed at specific skills. They are not overall damage increases.
So to sum it up - there is nothing here that is going to let a Captain do 100% more damage on all of their moves. On the contrary - they are increases along the lines of 5% - 15% and are on SPECIFIC SKILLS ONLY. The largest increase these traits provide is a 50% bonus - and again, that is ONLY on a single skill and not an overall damage increase. So the offensive increases these traits provide are being exagerated here in my opinion. And this is meant generally, and I'm not pointing to any single Captain on this thread.
So bottom line is Red Traits will give you a significant boost to your dps. But it's really no more significant than the increases the other trait-lines will give you in their respected areas in my opinion. It is not blatantly over-powered when compared to other traitlines. It's just not. And if you're in a group that will benefit from extra healing, the HoH traitline is deffinitely worthwhile. There is just nothing in these Red Traits that would make a Captain's offense so spectacular that they simply must be traited for Raids if a Captain wants to remain effective.
Jeremi:
Once again you only see trees when you need to see the forest.
Assumption: TheoryCaptain is using a maxed Shadow's Lament Cooldown legacy.
You're ignoring that:
1.) Shadow's Lament enters into the captain's DPS rotation with MoW slotted. So essentially, the captain gets a skill that's not used all that much otherwise (RC and WC take higher priority over Routing Cry and SL for defeat responses).
2.) Shadows Lament is a hard hitting skill, and I would not be surprised if the average SL damage is around 2x - 3x that of Battle-shout, so that means the SL => DB/PA => BoE skill chains START with increased damage over the BS => DB/PA => BoE skill chains.
3.) With Master of War Slotted, the number of SL/BS => DB/PA => BoE skill chains improve from 3 to 6 per minute (with SL legacy). That's a huge DPS increase for the captain, especially considering that DB, PA, and BoE contribute a fairly large percentage of our DPS (at least, from the last time I've looked at a parse).
Or put another way:
LtC major DPS skills per minute:
6 Blade of Elendils
6 Devastating Blows or Pressing Attacks
4 Battle Shouts
2 Shadows Laments
Compared to non-red major DPS skills per minute:
3 Blade of Elendils
3 Devastating Blows or Pressing Attacks
3 Battle Shouts
The LtC damage increase isn't so much about the magnitude of skills (like the HoH healing increases are), but the DPS increase is about the skill frequency. Especially when it's increasing the frequency of the hardest hitting skills in our arsenal.
4) From the perspective of the LtC capstine, yes, you have me with the +5 seconds on To Arms, VS HoT, Composure, and 0 Mark Cooldown, and IDoME however...
My DPS is significantly stronger than yours, because I can use all the major DPS skills twice as often as you can
I can produce an average of 1 RC a minute + War Cry on a defeat response fight, whereas you can only keep War Cry up (2 DR/min v 1 DR/min)
Because of our dual bleeds and SL being ungated (and high threat), LtC is second only to LoM as far as OTing goes
On paper, the zero mark cooldown looks huge, in actual practice, it's not as big as many are making it out to be. I've used the marks significantly both ways, and from personal experience, it's a nice perk, but hardly needed.
Composure isn't really needed because I can always PoT + LI Swap and achieve close to the same thing. If I need RC right now, chances the raid screwed up the fight mechanics and are going to wipe anyway.
Originally Posted by discodanman45
Having 4 red is extremely important for the extra crit chance. Not only is our strongest heal is unlocked on a crit, but keeping up War Cry is also extremely important. Having more blue will give you stronger heals, but you will get more heals for having 5 red. Especially having the Perserveance set with 6 second rallying cry, 4 Red is the strongest captain setup IMO.
This bears repeating because it's so true.
Originally Posted by discodanman45
However, I am one of the few people in my kin that has a main captain, and I am usually a tad more offensive because I have top end gear and spend a lot of time doing so. Depending on content, some captains in our kin will go more blue and even HoH. Sometimes we even have a captain trait SoD.
Nothing wrong with being offensive... we're hybrids, and we need to be able to do all three pieces of the trinity decently well should the situation call for it, in addition to the usual buffing and panic button stuff.
Also, SotD suffers the Luigi Syndrome - it's a worthy legendary, there's at least 3 others that are better XD
Last edited by Almagnus1; Jul 15 2012 at 08:34 PM.
Ok, for real, here's the thing with red line in raids.
In HoH, I put out 300 DPS and 500 HPS.
In LtC, I put out 700 DPS and 400 HPS.
And to be perfectly honest, I'm not even running an ideal setup for an LtC raid, which would be a Dagor/Pers build that can easily top 1k DPS while MATCHING the HPS of a good HoH build.
That 100 HPS is absolutely never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever the difference between winning and losing. The only reason to fail in the current endgame is because your group isn't paying attention to the instance mechanics, not because your Captain sacrificed a tiny amount of healing in order to put out over twice as much DPS.
Most raids can survive somehow with NO Captain heals whatsoever. Real main healers in this game are good enough that Captain heals aren't actually required to beat content. The bring us for our buffs and our utility skills, not our heals, so IMO build just to bring heals is hurting your group by slowing down your completion of the fights. (And thereby increasing the chance that someone makes a mistake and wipes you. Which, again, is the ONLY reason people lose in Orthanc, unless their main healer is incredibly incompetent.)
You're doing something horribly wrong if you aren't healing at least 40% more in HoH than you do in LtC.
Math, math, math. Both theorycrafting and metering has shown that the healing output difference between 5R/2B and HoH is minimal. You're going to have to do better than making assertions about what HoH should do, when it's well understood both based on number-crunching and in-game experience what HoH actually does (i.e., not as much as it should).
So to sum it up - there is nothing here that is going to let a Captain do 100% more damage on all of their moves. On the contrary - they are increases along the lines of 5% - 15% and are on SPECIFIC SKILLS ONLY. The largest increase these traits provide is a 50% bonus - and again, that is ONLY on a single skill and not an overall damage increase. So the offensive increases these traits provide are being exagerated here in my opinion. And this is meant generally, and I'm not pointing to any single Captain on this thread.
So bottom line is Red Traits will give you a significant boost to your dps. But it's really no more significant than the increases the other trait-lines will give you in their respected areas in my opinion. It is not blatantly over-powered when compared to other traitlines. It's just not. And if you're in a group that will benefit from extra healing, the HoH traitline is deffinitely worthwhile. There is just nothing in these Red Traits that would make a Captain's offense so spectacular that they simply must be traited for Raids if a Captain wants to remain effective.
Not really , thats not how it works. When traited LtC you get totally different attack rotations , that mostly include shadow's lament and DA/PA. The damage you inflict , if geared with 3 dagor/3 prese (<- perfect build ) and an emblem with SL cd is actually double , and i believe even more than double , when compared to non-ltc dps.
However , since this thread is about raiding , i need to add here , that the damage might get an enormous percentage boost , but it's laughable comparing to other perfectly geared dps-classes............... Final time-benefit of a decent LtC captain's dps on a raid fight is only a few seconds. After all , double s@#t-dps = less s@#t dps.
I could agree with you if you referred to 4r build , which is exactly the same attack rotations with other builds, only with a 25% increase in battle-ready state.In that case , it's only the red-trait/set bonuses that do the difference and it's defo less than a 50% increase comparing to a non-red cappy.
Almagnus i suggest you re-enter a saruman fight and re-think on the mark cd set-2.The mark swaps there are just too many , because of the elemental-phase changes and the ammount of clones . If you have a 10-sec cooldown in each swap , then it's a big loss , and that's not on paper.
As for the shield of the dunedain , it is indeed a worthy legendary. I wear it every day.
In the moors........................
For a raid ? No way , we still have HS for that .
Maybe in the future , who knows.
Last but not least : There are no perfect trait-builds , it's always give and take : )
There are only perfect builds ( or at least near-perfect builds ) for certain situations , in this case , raid fights. For anyone who can't understand what i mean , don't worry.
You will one day oOooOoOoOo
Almagnus i suggest you re-enter a saruman fight and re-think on the mark cd set-2.The mark swaps there are just too many , because of the elemental-phase changes and the ammount of clones . If you have a 10-sec cooldown in each swap , then it's a big loss , and that's not on paper.
I've avoided this because it seems overheated. And I've done very little by way of Orthanc T2 raids as my kin now raids too late for me during daylight savings time. But a point on the above.
We normally assign 1 captain Telling, 1 Revealing. The damage loss you mention above during the cooldown would only apply to the captain doing Telling. Revealing is very nice, but really is a brief gap so bad on it? Both Captains need not be identical -- for example, there is no point in giving both Command sets. So if this is the key distinction being made (need 2 yellows for mark swap), well, I'd suggest that one of the 2 Captains is plenty to have that...
We normally assign 1 captain Telling, 1 Revealing. The damage loss you mention above during the cooldown would only apply to the captain doing Telling. Revealing is very nice, but really is a brief gap so bad on it? Both Captains need not be identical -- for example, there is no point in giving both Command sets. So if this is the key distinction being made (need 2 yellows for mark swap), well, I'd suggest that one of the 2 Captains is plenty to have that...
Ofc it is important . For BOTH marks.Especially when those cooldowned-mark gaps are so many.
Revealing mark is lotro's only group lifesteal aka passive healing (well,maybe lm's light too ? ), the madder you go on a mob , the better .
Actually...................... . I've heard so many things on this thread that this seems of lesser importance.
Maybe in a few days , someone will pop and say that applying mark is a waste of power.
Hmm... Nah , that wouldn't surprise me either. I believe i am perfectly 'trained' at the moment.
Not really , thats not how it works. When traited LtC you get totally different attack rotations , that mostly include shadow's lament and DA/PA. The damage you inflict , if geared with 3 dagor/3 prese (<- perfect build ) and an emblem with SL cd is actually double , and i believe even more than double , when compared to non-ltc dps.
Nope. In fact you are pretty much making my point for me - because in order to counter my post you had to bring up gear, rotations, emblems, legacies... and everything else. So you are making the same mistake others in this thread are doing - and mixing and matching things that don't belong in the context I am using.
We are talking about the trait themselves, and there is no combination of red traits that are going to let Captains do twice the damage other captains can do. All Captains can wear the Dagor set. All Captains can use SL legacy on their emblem. There is simply no combination of red traits that are going to let a Captain do twice as much damage as other Captains - and that is what my post was saying
If you are doing 100% more damage than other Captains - there are a LOT other factors involved besides your "red traits" trust me. And your post helped make my point for me, so thank you
Jeremi:
Once again you only see trees when you need to see the forest.
Almagnus:
Once again you are lost in the forest and don't see the trees
If you are doing twice the damage other Captains are doing - it ISN'T just because of your Red Traits. It has a LOT more to do with your gear, legacies, skill... and other factors.
Just because you put on some Red Traits that isn't going to turn you into some kind of offensive machine twice as good as all other Captains. It's just not - and there is nothing in those Red Trats that are going to make you do twice the damage as other Captains. That's just a fact. There isn't.
We are talking about the trait themselves, and there is no combination of red traits that are going to let Captains do twice the damage other captains can do. All Captains can wear the Dagor set. All Captains can use SL legacy on their emblem. There is simply no combination of red traits that are going to let a Captain do twice as much damage as other Captains - and that is what my post was saying
You need to have first hand experience with that trait line, because words clearly mean nothing to you - and you just demonstrated that you don't/won't take the time to understand exactly what the theorycrafting is saying.
We are talking about the trait themselves, and there is no combination of red traits that are going to let Captains do twice the damage other captains can do. All Captains can wear the Dagor set. All Captains can use SL legacy on their emblem. There is simply no combination of red traits that are going to let a Captain do twice as much damage as other Captains - and that is what my post was saying
I've already mentioned the red traits themselves don't result in such a huge increase on dps. It's the master of war capstone that makes the difference.
Without capstone , SL is pretty much out of the game , apart from having it's damage nerfed. Plus there are less devastating blows/pressing attacks , which leads your back to sure strike/defensive strike chains,like you do without reds.
Go to a dummy , load combat analysis and you'll understand what i mean.
Yes only specific skills but the skills are the 95% of damage skills you the rest is sure strike and maybe a devensive strike if all skills have cd and this is only the fact if you have time to only dps. In situations where you have to heal too you will only use this specific skills.
Thao that's just not true. I use every melee skill I have while healing.
But regardless, my point was that there is nothing in those red traits that are going to let a Captain do twice as much damage as other Captains. There just isn't.
For example: I easily double the amount of healing other Captains I play with to a lot of times but that isn't solely because I have blue traits on. It has more to do with how I play, the gear I use, the legacies I choose, how lazy the other Capatin is about healing and so on.... The blue traits help of course, but they aren't the only factor. And you don't see me coming onto these forums bragging about how HoH can double or triple to healing of all other Captains. Because I am not that foolish to think that.
In other words, I could throw on the Dagor set, max out all my dps legacies, stack the hell out of might and crit - put on 5 blue traits and there is no way another Captain would be able to double my damage simply because he has more red traits on that I do. The traits don't make that much difference. They help - but they dont' make you do double the damage of other Captains.
I've already mentioned the red traits themselves don't result in such a huge increase on dps. It's the master of war capstone that makes the difference.
Without capstone , SL is pretty much out of the game , apart from having it's damage nerfed. Plus there are less devastating blows/pressing attacks , which leads your back to sure strike/defensive strike chains,like you do without reds.
Go to a dummy , load combat analysis and you'll understand what i mean.
Well then we mostly agree - I think. Because that is what I was saying. But I would slightly disagree with you on one point.
Even the Master of War trait - by ITSELF (or when combined with other Red Traits) is not going to enable a Captain to do double the damage as other Captains. It let's you do a 50% stronger Shadows Lament without needing a defeat response and slips you into a battle-readied state. So basically it will speed up your rotations and let you do 50% more damage from your Shadow. Which is nice, but it's no where near like a 100% self-inflicted telling mark. That would be grossly OP if it was.
And I use Shadow's Lament all the time, even as a HoH Captain. So I would disagree with you that unless you are LtC that move is pretty much out of the game.
You need to have first hand experience with that trait line, because words clearly mean nothing to you - and you just demonstrated that you don't/won't take the time to understand exactly what the theorycrafting is saying.
I have used these traits before Almagnus, so I have first-hand experience at using them
And I didn't do double the damage when I equipped them either lol
I'm actually in a better position to judge this than you are - because I have used these traits outside of an offensive build and offensive legacies, so I can judge better how much an actual difference the traits themselves make - minus the offensive stats and legacies I'm sure you compliment them with.
Well then we mostly agree - I think. Because that is what I was saying. But I would slightly disagree with you on one point.
Even the Master of War trait - by ITSELF (or when combined with other Red Traits) is not going to enable a Captain to do double the damage as other Captains. It let's you do a 50% stronger Shadows Lament without needing a defeat response and slips you into a battle-readied state. So basically it will speed up your rotations and let you do 50% more damage from your Shadow. Which is nice, but it's no where near like a 100% self-inflicted telling mark. That would be grossly OP if it was.
You're ignoring the two extra skill chains again Jeremi.
Yes, SL is ungated. Yes it is +50%, but it also ungates DB/PA.
Which means when you use SL, DB/PA => BoE will follow, so that's not just a guaranteed 2 skills per minute, it's a guaranteed 6. It's the extra DB/PA => BoE chains where the additional DPS comes from.
Originally Posted by Jeremi
And I use Shadow's Lament all the time, even as a HoH Captain. So I would disagree with you that unless you are LtC that move is pretty much out of the game.
Not at the frequency of the LtC captains - not if you want to sacrifice your War Cries and Rally Cries for Shadow's Laments. Bad captains sacrifice defeat responses for DPS when they should have buffed or healed, good captains do not.
Since I can't get into the game, I am going by my memory with parsing training dummies. There is absolutely no way that LtC capstone will allow you to double your DPS. I think the true number is somewhere around 50% more damage. Once we go live again today I will doing some parses of 1 minute with a raid type build without using telling mark (mark wont stay on training dummy anyway) to see what type of numbers I get. I will use blade brother as well, since this is what most raiding captains use these days.
Last edited by discodanman45; Jul 16 2012 at 01:54 PM.
You're ignoring the two extra skill chains again Jeremi.
Yes, SL is ungated. Yes it is +50%, but it also ungates DB/PA.
Which means when you use SL, DB/PA => BoE will follow, so that's not just a guaranteed 2 skills per minute, it's a guaranteed 6. It's the extra DB/PA => BoE chains where the additional DPS comes from.
Not at the frequency of the LtC captains - not if you want to sacrifice your War Cries and Rally Cries for Shadow's Laments. Bad captains sacrifice defeat responses for DPS when they should have buffed or healed, good captains do not.
Are you a bad captain?
And again you are make believing I said something I didn't and arguing with it in some attempt to try and describe me as "bad" captain.
I never said I used Shadow's Lament at the same frequency as LtC Captains. I simply said I do still often use it - so it isn't pretty much out of the game for me.
Since I can't get into the game, I am going by my memory with parsing training dummies. There is absolutely no way that LtC capstone will allow you to double your DPS. I think the true number is somewhere around 50% more damage. Once we go live again today I will doing some parses of 1 minute with a raid type build without using telling mark (wont stay on training dummy either) to see what type of numbers I get. I will use blade brother as well, since this is how most raiding captains use these days.
I agree Discodanman. They are exagerating big time the damage increases these Red Traits give. I know this for a fact because I have used them myself, and I would have deffinitely noticed if they doubled my damage. But they did no such thing.
It was a significant boost - yes - but no where near 100%.
We are talking about the trait themselves, and there is no combination of red traits that are going to let Captains do twice the damage other captains can do. All Captains can wear the Dagor set. All Captains can use SL legacy on their emblem. There is simply no combination of red traits that are going to let a Captain do twice as much damage as other Captains - and that is what my post was saying
If you are doing 100% more damage than other Captains - there are a LOT other factors involved besides your "red traits" trust me.
This is correct. Dagor and Perseverance set bonuses must be involved to make the disparity such that a LtC captain does approaching 2x as much single target damage as a non-red captain. Assuming both are using melee skills about the same amount.
This is a good thing to understand as we put together pieces of information and come up with raid builds, which must include traits, set bonuses, legacies, everything.
Taking a LtC spec with the Command set for example does not generate 2x as much personal damage as 5b/2y spec with the Command set. I'm having an ongoing discussion with Retarius on what that means, on whether that personal damage with Command set LtC offsets not having tact prowess + IDOME. (3dagor/3pers LtC personal DPS does offset the loss of group damage from Tact prowess + IDOME. But 1 command set captain is super important and usually I'm that guy).
I will use blade brother as well, since this is what most raiding captains use these days.
Nice one , this is important cause that alone is 15% increase in offense ( half the fight though ).
EDIT: What's all this about captain using set-3 dagor without MoW ???????
Why the heck would anyone use the reduction of shadow's lament couldown when that can only be used after a death event ????????
This makes no sense at all.
And why would anyone spend a death event on shadow's lament when it doesnt get you battle ready ?????????
Why not use a rallying/war cry instead ??????????????
If someone does do some parsing, hork up the TP/skirm currency to summon an herbalist to heal you (w/o debuffs, so you can BB it), throw down a banner, and parse. That will give the most accurate picture of what a captain is likely to see in a raid environment.
It's also something that most of the parses have been missing. It's been either herald/archer + BB, or banner w/o BB - not both together.
Nice one , this is important cause that alone is 15% increase in offense ( half the fight though ).
And why would anyone spend a death event on shadow's lament when it doesnt get you battle ready ?????????
Why not use a rallying/war cry instead ??????????????
Are you being serious about this ??????????
And yes , you guys still manage to impress me.
I don't know why you think this is so silly.
If War Cry has already been used and Rally Cry is on cool down or everyone is already at max HP and there is no need for a Rally Cry why not pop a Shadow's lament for some extra damage? It can land for over 3k sometimes, even when I use it - so it's a nice little attack.
Makes a lot more sense than simply not using it at all - rather it makes you battle readied or not.
If someone does do some parsing, hork up the TP/skirm currency to summon an herbalist to heal you (w/o debuffs, so you can BB it), throw down a banner, and parse. That will give the most accurate picture of what a captain is likely to see in a raid environment.
It's also something that most of the parses have been missing. It's been either herald/archer + BB, or banner w/o BB - not both together.
That is why I have another account, to have someone there to help me with the parses
5B + Capstone = +40% WoC healing, +45% Inspire healing, +20% Rallying Cry averages out to about 35% increased healing. Rallying Cry is not used as frequently as WoC or Inspire, so I conservatively estimate that an HoH Captain's outgoing healing increase without Valiant Strike is a minimum of 45%.
1.33 (cooldown reduction from capstone) X (20% (set bonus + capstone base healing increase) + 900% (Capstone HoT bonus)) = 1223% healing increase from traits alone. Factor in the Menestaid 3-piece bonus which most HoH cappies have and you get another 20% base healing increase. Factor in a Gallant Commander/Menestaid 3-piece combo and you get the cooldown eliminated in many situations.
If you do not use Valiant Strike at all (it's not always necessary) your base healing should increase by around 45%. If you do use Valiant Strike to its full extent in an HoH build, your outgoing healing will increase by at least 332% (note that we aren't even factoring in the Relentless Optimism trait). Is this increase to outgoing healing always necessary in raids? Depends on the group makeup, but oftentimes I have found it to be a major contributing factor to success. When healing 3 and 6 mans I absolutely rely on it, especially in instances like Foundry and RoF which grant enough defeat events in the trash pulls to allow endless Valiant Strike HoTs through the Menestaid/Gallant Commander 3-piece combo.
An LtC Captain should not expect to even approach the heals put out by an HoH Captain. If he could, it would be a serious enough problem in the class's design to warrant the firing of the class designer, or at least a severe reduction to his salary.
Last edited by GeorgeBaggy; Jul 16 2012 at 02:30 PM.
If War Cry has already been used and Rally Cry is on cool down or everyone is already at max HP and there is no need for a Rally Cry why not pop a Shadow's lament for some extra damage? It can land for over 3k sometimes, even when I use it - so it's a nice little attack.
Makes a lot more sense than simply not using it at all - rather it makes you battle readied or not.
Yeah lol , like 1% that is . How do you get that many death events without MoW traited ??? And if you get that many , in raid-trash or something ( which barely happens even there ) why don't you use preserverance so that all your death events become war/rallying cries ?????
Well , if everyone is full ( and power is full ) , then fine , do it . It's exactly what i do as well , but thats like 1% or less . Even bringing this up is really really weird and confusing.And you said you do it all the time as HoH captain .Bah..... what are you on about QQ ?
And what's that all about that 'any' cappy can use SL legacy on their emblem or dagor 3-set , either they are being master of war or not??????????
Why ???? LOL , most weird/pointless thing i've heard so far .
5B + Capstone = +40% WoC healing, +45% Inspire healing, +20% Rallying Cry averages out to about 35% increased healing. Rallying Cry is not used as frequently as WoC or Inspire, so I conservatively estimate that an HoH Captain's outgoing healing increase without Valiant Strike is a minimum of 45%.
Increase from base healing is 45%? That is not just from HoH capstone. You can still trait 2 or 4 blues and get many of those percentages without going HoH capstone. You could trait 5 red and 2 blue, and still get +20% WoC and 10% extra healing from vocal skills. So it is absurd to imply that there is a huge disparity in healing by being a HoH capstone cappy. In actuality I think that a LtC cappy could have higher HPS then a HoH cappy on a single target boss without adds. The reason for this is that a LtC cappy will more then double the amount of devestating blows that a HoH cappy could do. 5% extra crit from 4 red and extra skills that can unlock rallying cry would make LtC a viable contender for highest HPS a cappy could do, even over a HoH cappy.
Now the heals wouldn't be as strong or as controlled, but I really do think on a single target a LtC cappy could outheal a HoH cappy. That shows you that HoH is a broken capstone and something needs to be done about it.
5B + Capstone = +40% WoC healing, +45% Inspire healing, +20% Rallying Cry averages out to about 35% increased healing. Rallying Cry is not used as frequently as WoC or Inspire, so I conservatively estimate that an HoH Captain's outgoing healing increase without Valiant Strike is a minimum of 45%.
But that's not the way the percents work. That +40% WoC healing isn't a base * 40%, it's a (100% + <bonuses>) * base, so it's actually not as big as you think it is.
Originally Posted by GeorgeBaggy
An LtC Captain should not expect to even approach the heals put out by an HoH Captain. If he could, it would be a serious enough problem in the class's design to warrant the firing of the class designer, or at least a severe reduction to his salary.
Wait until you see some of the healing parses that have been floating around.
That's one of the reasons why LoM superceeded HoH as the premier pre-RoI raiding spec. It's also why LtC is anywhere near comparable to HoH as far as healing goes.
The problem originates from a captain's healing emblem, that can be used with any line, and Vocal skills getting near max improvement with a shallow traiting in HoH.
These are the reasons why I have been bashing HoH for a while now: I want to see it's healing buffed because I feel very strongly that it's needed.
Yeah lol , like 1% that is . How do you get that many death events without MoW traited ??? And if you get that many , in raid-trash or something ( which barely happens even there ) why don't you use preserverance so that all your death events become war/rallying cries ?????
Well , if everyone is full ( and power is full ) , then fine , do it . It's exactly what i do as well , but thats like 1% or less . Even bringing this up is really really weird and confusing.
And what's that all about that 'any' cappy can use SL legacy on their emblem or dagor 3-set , either they are being master of war or not??????????
Why ???? LOL , most weird/pointless thing i've heard so far .
It's WAY MORE than 1%. See this is what I'm talking about, this kind of thinking where people think LtC Captains are the only Captains who can get defeat responses. I get a LOT of crits on my devasting blow Bot - not to mention tons of boss fights on this game have adds that die frequently - it's not just trash.
And War cry last like a minute... and I typically have defeat responses coming in a lot more often than every minute... and not just on "trash" either. This is a silly argument. And I don't need "preserverance" or w/e. Why waste a lot of rally cries on a group that is already topped off on HP just because you have some weird thing against Shadow's Lament unless it puts you into a battle-readied stance?
And there was nothing weird/pointless about me pointing out to you that any Captain can use SL legacy or Dagor set. I was pointing that out to let you know those are seperate factors not dependent on having red traits equipped.
My argument was never that certain Captains couldn't do double the damage of other captains. My argument was that if a Captain is doing twice the damage as other Captains, there are a LOT of other factors involved, and it's not just the Red Traits that are responsible. It's other things, such as offensive gear and legacies or just plain skill that are making that possible. And people need to recognize that instead of exagerating the effects of these Red Traits and trying to make them out to be way more awesome than they actually are.
So while they are nice traits with significant benefits - they aren't 100% nice and don't = giving the Captain his own personal 100% telling mark to use on all his attacks.
it's way more than 1%. See this is what i'm talking about, this kind of thinking where people think ltc captains are the only captains who can get defeat responses. I get a lot of crits on my devasting blow bot - not to mention tons of boss fights on this game have adds that die frequently - it's not just trash.
And war cry last like a minute... And i typically have defeat responses coming in a lot more often than every minute... And not just on "trash" either. This is a silly argument. And i don't need "preserverance" or w/e. Why waste a lot of rally cries on a group that is already topped off on hp just because you have some weird thing against shadow's lament unless it puts you into a battle-readied stance?
And there was nothing weird/pointless about me pointing out to you that any captain can use sl legacy or dagor set. I was pointing that out to let you know those are seperate factors not dependent on having red traits equipped.
My argument was never that certain captains couldn't do double the damage of other captains. My argument was that if a captain is doing twice the damage as other captains, there are a lot of other factors involved, and it's not just the red traits that are responsible. It's other things, such as offensive gear and legacies or just plain skill that are making that possible. And people need to recognize that instead of exagerating the effects of these red traits and trying to make them out to be way more awesome than they actually are.
So while they are nice traits with significant benefits - they aren't 100% nice and don't = giving the captain his own personal 100% telling mark to use on all his attacks.
It's WAY MORE than 1%. See this is what I'm talking about, this kind of thinking where people think LtC Captains are the only Captains who can get defeat responses. I get a LOT of crits on my devasting blow Bot - not to mention tons of boss fights on this game have adds that die frequently - it's not just trash.
No , you get max 1 death event every 1.5 minutes from your DB , with the best critical rating possible ( which dunno if you have ) without MoW, and THAT with 4 reds That has already been calculated , read. With HoH , you get EVEN less. It can also be translated as 2 (maybe 3 if lucky) death events in a 5-min fight , and NO , it's NOT a lot.
It's common sense that MoW get MORE DE responses and not that they are the only one who get them. I don't know where this came up from,it's yours.There is no such fight in ToO that puts your RC's/WC on cooldown with a much bigger chance than the one i mentioned.I rarely remember having death events to waste without MoW gearing.
And i've already said i am not a supporter of this build btw , with the exclusion of 1 boss due to fail mechanics.
Originally Posted by Jeremi
And War cry last like a minute... and I typically have defeat responses coming in a lot more often than every minute... and not just on "trash" either. This is a silly argument. And I don't need "preserverance" or w/e. Why waste a lot of rally cries on a group that is already topped off on HP just because you have some weird thing against Shadow's Lament unless it puts you into a battle-readied stance?
WC lasts 1 minute , though it has a lower cd so you might as well renew it instead of letting it run off. Brains.
If you don't need preserverance , then you don't get the death events you claim.Overheal is not only about morale , it's about power as well. We are the only class that can heal power to the group without expense.I have no grudge for shadow's lament , it's a simple fact that it is the pre-last death event choice.
Originally Posted by Jeremi
And there was nothing weird/pointless about me pointing out to you that any Captain can use SL legacy or Dagor set. I was pointing that out to let you know those are seperate factors not dependent on having red traits equipped.
You don't even have any idea what you are talking about. You try to claim that all trait-builds can benefit from a set (in this case , the dagor dps-set) when in reality , it's totally pointless cause it supports a NON-SPAMMABLE , RARELY worth using and NERFED skill .l2p
Originally Posted by Jeremi
My argument was never that certain Captains couldn't do double the damage of other captains. My argument was that if a Captain is doing twice the damage as other Captains, there are a LOT of other factors involved, and it's not just the Red Traits that are responsible. It's other things, such as offensive gear and legacies or just plain skill that are making that possible. And people need to recognize that instead of exagerating the effects of these Red Traits and trying to make them out to be way more awesome than they actually are.
The point is not the red traits , those alone don't boost the dps a lot . It's the MASTER OF WAR capstone and the AVAILABLE gear you can get to BOOST it that makes the difference . READ .
No , you get max 1 death event every 1.5 minutes from your DB , with the best critical rating possible ( which dunno if you have ) without MoW, and THAT with 4 reds That has already been calculated , read. With HoH , you get EVEN less. It can also be translated as 2 (maybe 3 if lucky) death events in a 5-min fight , and NO , it's NOT a lot.
It's common sense that MoW get MORE DE responses and not that they are the only one who get them. I don't know where this came up from,it's yours.There is no such fight in ToO that puts your RC's/WC on cooldown with a much bigger chance than the one i mentioned.I rarely remember having death events to waste without MoW gearing.
And i've already said i am not a supporter of this build btw , with the exclusion of 1 boss due to fail mechanics.
OK critical hits are random Bot. Even if you don't have max critical rating it is still very possible to nail two crits with your Devasting blow back to back. Secondly, something dies... you use war cry - then nail a crit with devasting blow. Everyone is topped off on HP. So why not use Shadow's lament in that situation?
And yes, it is a LOT. I have defeat responses coming in faster than a minute a whole &&&&ing lot. In fact it's not uncommon for me to run out of things to use period from defeat responses.
Originally Posted by BotLike
WC lasts 1 minute , though it has a lower cd so you might as well renew it instead of letting it run off. Brains.
If you don't need preserverance , then you don't get the death events you claim.Overheal is not only about morale , it's about power as well. We are the only class that can heal power to the group without expense.I have no grudge for shadow's lament , it's a simple fact that it is the pre-last death event choice.
Again: Let me repeat this example.
It has a 45 second cool down Bot. It's not always possible to renew it. So if you have a defeat response come up BEFORE the 45 seconds is over, everyone is fine on HP AND Power - why not use Shadow's Lament? That is what I am saying - and this happens with me FREQUENTLY. This is not near so rare of an occasion as you are making out.
Originally Posted by BotLike
You don't even have any idea what you are talking about. You try to claim that all trait-builds can benefit from a set (in this case , the dagor dps-set) when in reality , it's totally pointless cause it supports a NON-SPAMMABLE , RARELY worth using and NERFED skill .l2p
I know exactly what I was saying, you just don't understand what I am saying lol I was never trying to say it was smart or beneficial for other types of Captains to use these sets or legacies. I was simply pointing out to you they are NOT Red Traits, and you can't counter my argument that Red Traits do not double a Captains damage by bringing gear and legacies into the equation. That actually PROVES my point, it doens't counter it. That's why I said that.
Originally Posted by BotLike
The point is not the red traits , those alone don't boost the dps a lot . It's the MASTER OF WAR capstone and the AVAILABLE gear you can get to BOOST it that makes the difference . READ .
Jesus christ
I DID read lol
I even said I agreed with you on most of what you were saying. But slightly disagreed with you in one respect. The Master of War trait - if taken alone or with other Red traits - will NOT double your damage by itself. Other things, like good gear, legacies, skill ect... will have to be included in the comparison. No Red Trait or combination of Red Traits alone are going to increase the Captain damage by 100%. That's what I was saying. But like I said, I think we mostly agree on this point - especially if you recognize that gear has to be a factor as well.
It's WAY MORE than 1%. See this is what I'm talking about, this kind of thinking where people think LtC Captains are the only Captains who can get defeat responses. I get a LOT of crits on my devasting blow Bot - not to mention tons of boss fights on this game have adds that die frequently - it's not just trash.
So how often are you critting? How many Defeat Response per minute are seeing in boss fights?
Originally Posted by Jeremi
And War cry last like a minute... and I typically have defeat responses coming in a lot more often than every minute... and not just on "trash" either. This is a silly argument. And I don't need "preserverance" or w/e. Why waste a lot of rally cries on a group that is already topped off on HP just because you have some weird thing against Shadow's Lament unless it puts you into a battle-readied stance?
Soo.... how many defeat response are you seeing per minute?
Also, Shadow's Lament is raw damage without MoW, because it needs MoW to initiate the skill chain.
Originally Posted by Jeremi
My argument was never that certain Captains couldn't do double the damage of other captains. My argument was that if a Captain is doing twice the damage as other Captains, there are a LOT of other factors involved, and it's not just the Red Traits that are responsible. It's other things, such as offensive gear and legacies or just plain skill that are making that possible. And people need to recognize that instead of exagerating the effects of these Red Traits and trying to make them out to be way more awesome than they actually are.
So while they are nice traits with significant benefits - they aren't 100% nice and don't = giving the Captain his own personal 100% telling mark to use on all his attacks.
So.... how much DPS are you seeing with your traiting? How does it compare to what you see when you trait LtC?
Where are your parses showing that it's lower?
Where's your data?
Originally Posted by BotLike
The point is not the red traits , those alone don't boost the dps a lot . It's the MASTER OF WAR capstone and the AVAILABLE gear you can get to BOOST it that makes the difference . READ .
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Originally Posted by Jeremi
Georg Schramm "...wir brauchen Idioten sonst frisst keiner Gammelfleisch!"
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I am planning on going LtC with 3 piece perserveance set to try to get F/F CM with one burg. Having shadow's Lament available every 9 to 13 seconds depending on DPS rotation should allow me to DPS like a poorly geared champ 
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Not really , thats not how it works. When traited LtC you get totally different attack rotations , that mostly include shadow's lament and DA/PA. The damage you inflict , if geared with 3 dagor/3 prese (<- perfect build ) and an emblem with SL cd is actually double , and i believe even more than double , when compared to non-ltc dps.
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Multi quote ; ; Ok let me try this:
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