I'd just like to ask and open for discussion how people think that epic battles such as Helm's Deep or Pelennor Fields will be played. naturally they will be instances but I wonder if Turbine will be able to capture the scope and size of these battles and do them justice. I do not want to play side quests on the outskirt of the battle i'd like to be invovled right next to the riders of rohan and the fellowship as they hold the gates or ride into the lines of orc-spears. I understand there are limits with technology and the grander the scale the more likely of lag but I have a go big or go home attitude to this. I don't only want to fight a boss at these battles i'd like to somehow be invloved in the battle itself. Any input on the possibility or likelihood of this woul dbe appreciated.
i'd like to be invovled right next to the riders of rohan and the fellowship as they hold the gates or ride into the lines of orc-spears.
Remember the movie version of Helm's Deep?
Remember the Orc carrying a lit cauldron full of gunpowder to the oddly placed grate that created an obvious weak point in the wall?
Remember Elves flying everywhere, confusing everyone involved since they weren't supposed to be there?
Guess what section of the wall your character will be stationed on.
You may even survive if you grab Falling Immunity from the store beforehand...
Well, all that or you'll be outside the gates, as a quest activates saying 'Kill 10,000 Orcs. Do not be defeated.'.
(1) PLEASE do not base your expectations on what was in the movies. This game is based on the books.
(2) There have been many many threads with people trying to guess what Turbine is going to do about Helm's Deep. Session play seems the likeliest: you "become" a Rohir stationed on the walls, and you fight Orcs.
Many people hate session play, though; they want to play their own, their very own characters that they've developed lovingly through all these months/years.
I suspect it's going to be session play anyway. But that's just my guess, since Turbine are playing their cards *very* close to their chests and none of us know.
It would be nice if the session play gave players a choice of what class to play as a Rohir, so that they could use the skills they're accustomed to. But even that may be stretching it. We haven't seen any Rohirrim Lore-masters or Rune-keepers in the Great River yet, have we?
For the record I have read the books. And the battles are epic in the books as well. Session play is interesting and i'm not necessarily excited for it but anything to experience the battle.
Well, you can look to existing instances/landscape for how many MOBs can be put in a nearby area and rendered for the viewer.
So there's the limit of how much of a big battle you can view at once.
One trick to employ, is fake more opponents by putting several on one polygon, like they did when we view that camp in the southern section of Isengard from the cliff above. Notice they restricted our viewpoint so we see it essentially in 2D instead of 3D? Notice that the "crowds" didn't move like a crowd, or flocking, but moved precisely at the same rate in the same direction/path without turning? That's because they weren't multiple objects (MOBs) at all, but one object.
I believe that was Turbine's "test" to see how well that effect would work.
The best I could imagine, would be a physical barrier, ravine, cliff, wall or the like (river/moat won't work as we can swim those), preventing you from getting close to the main battle, that main battle would have a couple MOBs in the foreground interacting, with simulated 2D fake MOBs behind them providing fake "depth" of hundreds and thousands.
Meanwhile we'd be distracted with the half dozen around us to fight, add in a dramatic soundtrack and sound effects of a huge battle and the illusion would be complete.
Interior locations with walls provide even more limited rendering needs, hence so many instances are dungeons/inside, and exterior ones have crude artificial invisible walls and similar heavy-handed controls of players. (Fangorn's Edge is very impressive in it's design, incorporating the "walls" into the landscape brilliantly.)
"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave
Unless something has come along in the interim, I'd expect it to be handled like that skirmish-like instance in southwestern Dunalnd was done.. The one that ended the Dunbog line of quests.. I forget the name of it, but I think it was intended to be Wulf's Cleft, wasn't it?
Frankly, I couldn't give a rat's patooti about epic battles, nor mounted combat. Those weren't fundamental to my enjoyment of the stories. But considering the limitations of this technology, as far as (we) understand them, I'd expect it to be handled like that instance.
Unless something has come along in the interim, I'd expect it to be handled like that skirmish-like instance in southwestern Dunalnd was done.. The one that ended the Dunbog line of quests.. I forget the name of it, but I think it was intended to be Wulf's Cleft, wasn't it?
Frankly, I couldn't give a rat's patooti about epic battles, nor mounted combat. Those weren't fundamental to my enjoyment of the stories. But considering the limitations of this technology, as far as (we) understand them, I'd expect it to be handled like that instance.
That would be Tusks of the Boar, and I'm inclined to agree with you on the first point.
If that is how they end up being I wouldn't be too upset. That instance was fairly good, although the overuse of stuns and disarms made it less than exciting for me. :P
Most definitely, but that appears to be a design favourite anymore..
In Dunland at least. I was rather pleased to find they went elsewhere to make fighting in the Great River more stimulating. The Easterling Sorcerers and their visual debuffs for example. Loved those.
Given that TES:O have been bragging of late about 200 a side PvP without requiring a major hardware/connection upgrade there are possibilities:-
1. We might expect something similar from LOTRO, because I refuse to believe that group A of coders are vastly more clever than group B, if the idea is feasible everything else is just a matter of time and tweaking.
or
2. TES:O have been using "marketing speak" which the rest of us English speakers call a fib.
As for sensible answers, some variation on the Wulf's Cleft instance and the session play with Isildur seems far more likely. As for Pelennor, as long as Luke isn't taking down the AT-ATs on Hoth, sorry, Legolas and the mumakil, then there are many bits you might want to experience, charge with the Rohirrim, fight on the walls of Minas Tirith and even land at Harlond with Aragorn, the Grey Company and their allies. All that does suggest session play. I really want to see a well done cut scene where Aragorn unfurls the banner Arwen made for him. One more session: Merry getting an "assist" on WKA perhaps? That way you get a close up on the action, your actions are crucial, but you still don't steal Eowyn's thunder.
The only way we would ever get to experience it is indeed as session play. Hobbit, Elf and Dwarf characters are already barred from joining the battle, and they can't make a giant instanced battle just for Man characters.
In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes. When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead
The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.
We are definitely going to be coming AFTER the battle. Mopping up the retreat and maybe getting a session play for the main battle. We won't be there to witness Sauruman head to the shire either will we?
This is whole aspect of PCs even being there is problematic. The bulk of the Rohirrim is going to be heading to Gondor (sans any elves, dwarves or hobbits). I cannot see a random hobbit PC meeting up with Theodin King.
All players will subsequently morph into humans? Hard to imagine sticking to 'lore' if not.
I think we are going to see something more along the line of the instance with the map table where we help the price fight and retreat from Isengard.
There were a lot more mobs, good and bad fighting in the general area than we could access. I think we are going to be looking at something alone those lines for the epic battles.
But instead of the movie the book provides a good example of how the fight would go. We might be the reserve troops that are required to help plug the holes in the wall when the orcs reach the top of the wall. in the book the heroes went from breakthrough to breakthrough all night long. So I could see a rather long "raid" where the 12 heros are flying from one point of the wall defeating tons of orcs, then having to travel to the next location right away. if we kill the mobs fast enough we get time to rest. if not,... well we know what happens. LOL
i see this a a do not let x number of defenders die type raid.
Small fellowship instances delaying the orcs from getting to Helm's deep
6 man sorties at the gate or driving the orcs back into the culvert.
even 12 man raid to rally the troops as we retreat to the caves.
The book offers many opportunities for instances which the movie does not.
Many people hate session play, though; they want to play their own, their very own characters that they've developed lovingly through all these months/years.
I suspect it's going to be session play anyway. But that's just my guess, since Turbine are playing their cards *very* close to their chests and none of us know.
It would be nice if the session play gave players a choice of what class to play as a Rohir, so that they could use the skills they're accustomed to. But even that may be stretching it. We haven't seen any Rohirrim Lore-masters or Rune-keepers in the Great River yet, have we?
Although this probably won't be seen, I suggest a unique session play that gives you a choice of 9 class-based defenders of Helms Deep. Each class of the session play will be based off of the original classes available, using some of their common skills and a few more powerful ones to deal with the large masses of filthy Uruks. Just an idea, and one that might make this session play seem more personal.
Well, you can look to existing instances/landscape for how many MOBs can be put in a nearby area and rendered for the viewer.
So there's the limit of how much of a big battle you can view at once.
One trick to employ, is fake more opponents by putting several on one polygon, like they did when we view that camp in the southern section of Isengard from the cliff above. Notice they restricted our viewpoint so we see it essentially in 2D instead of 3D? Notice that the "crowds" didn't move like a crowd, or flocking, but moved precisely at the same rate in the same direction/path without turning? That's because they weren't multiple objects (MOBs) at all, but one object.
I believe that was Turbine's "test" to see how well that effect would work.
The best I could imagine, would be a physical barrier, ravine, cliff, wall or the like (river/moat won't work as we can swim those), preventing you from getting close to the main battle, that main battle would have a couple MOBs in the foreground interacting, with simulated 2D fake MOBs behind them providing fake "depth" of hundreds and thousands.
Meanwhile we'd be distracted with the half dozen around us to fight, add in a dramatic soundtrack and sound effects of a huge battle and the illusion would be complete.
Interior locations with walls provide even more limited rendering needs, hence so many instances are dungeons/inside, and exterior ones have crude artificial invisible walls and similar heavy-handed controls of players. (Fangorn's Edge is very impressive in it's design, incorporating the "walls" into the landscape brilliantly.)
[/i]
Im of the same opinion. The devs had already stated that they put in bits and pieces of new stuff to test out if it works and slowly add to it and review it for problems/issues such as like when they added in the horse changes to the horse pants to Live in small parts years ago.
The minute I saw Wulfs Cleft I thought it would be a test for future content too.
Like another poster said about the use of polygons too. Little cheats that have the effect of making the experience better for us with less strain on our computers and servers.
A lot of lateral thinking will help us get a better gaming experience.
Last edited by guguzza71; Jul 11 2012 at 06:03 AM.
(1) PLEASE do not base your expectations on what was in the movies. This game is based on the books.
(2) There have been many many threads with people trying to guess what Turbine is going to do about Helm's Deep. Session play seems the likeliest: you "become" a Rohir stationed on the walls, and you fight Orcs.
So show me the RK and apparel dummies in Book or Film
Helms Deep will be a Discount Village complete with Coffee Shops and snotty nosed children demanding everything
The way they did the Orthanc battle in Book 5 was pretty epic. You couldn't attack EVERY orc in sight, but there was the look and feel of a fairly large battle all around you.
The game engine and other parts of the software can not handle large numbers of player characters and mobs at the same time. We already experience the software limits in places like Helegrod.
That leaves Turbine with the only option to reduce the strain by reducing the number of player characters. Hence we got the solo instances in Dunland with a lot more than normal AI controlled characters on both sides. Plus the creative use of back drops with fake mobs that are doing animations.
I suspect we will see solo encounters with a lot of activity going on. Creative use of explosions, animations and landscape elements to give the impression that we are in the middle of massive battle.
f you ever find in a situation where a lot of humans are upset and working together in the area. You are only vaguely aware of what everyone else is doing. You are focused on your little piece. You are trusting that the rest of group is doing their part. You don't have any spare capacity or time to stop and observe.
Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.
In Dunland at least. I was rather pleased to find they went elsewhere to make fighting in the Great River more stimulating. The Easterling Sorcerers and their visual debuffs for example. Loved those.
Yup. I imagine there will be a subset of players who can't handle that (but they may already be playing on reduced graphics quality to avoid such things to begin with). First time I got socked with that effect, I was quite surprised & disoriented.. lol
Sorry everybody, but Helms Deep has monsterplay written all over it. And perhaps and epic quest/session play.
Since teh devs have all but ruled out a new pvmp zone for now, I wonder if the pvmpers could get their own mirror version of Helms Deep and have it tacked on in the moors much as they got the Delving of Fror.
Of course it wouldnt be called Helms Deep unless they coded in an npc that calls for help with a "distant seige battle" and recruits players and ports them over to the instance in Rohan although it would remain in the moors zone like the delving of Fror remains in the moors.
In this way neither pvmpers and pvers need to ever mix.
I dont pvmp anymore however I dont see a reason to not toss a bone to monsterplayers every once in a while as long as it doesnt disrupt pve players.
Last edited by guguzza71; Jul 12 2012 at 05:26 AM.
Must admit I love huge, epic fights, and the secret with those isn't so much the game engine, as the Network hardware, configuration, and capability of the server hosting.
A very large determining factor in this as well, is the comms handling capability of your motherboard chipset (one of the reasons why I have stuck with Intel chipset motherboards for years now), and also the network capabilities of your ISP (some of them really do suck).
10 years ago, I was taking part in 150+ vs 150+ vs 150+ three way RvR fights in DAoC. The European GOA hosting couldn't handle it due to GOA incompetence, the Mythic handling could (I moved from GOA to Mythic hosting largely due to this). Using a 64k ISDN connection across the Atlantic, I could actually fight effectively. Yes there was some lag (graphics hardware not quite up to it at the time mostly), but it wasn't disastrous, to say the least. Generally, if there were over 700 players (plus mobs) in a zone, it would bring the zone down.
Best-fights-evah.
Some non-Intel based systems, with very poor comms handling hardware and drivers, simply couldn't cope (and as a custom system builder at the time, I tried pretty much everything).
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