Captain Moors Gear = Raiding Gear. I'll tell you why.
I'll just skip right to the main reasons why Moors Captain gear has been tailored for PvE.
It really comes straight from the the set bonus's. Stat wise you won't find these sets to be as satisfying as the ToO set, but in all actuality, the bonus's end up being the larger modifier.
Lets break the two sets down that I use to PvE:
First one: Perseverance Set. Here's a look at the bonus's.
If you notice, I have the 3 set bonus that gives -20% Defeat Event skills Cooldowns. This essentially translates into all of your defeat response skills cds dropping by -20%. The reason why this is important in pve, is because you can utilize your rallying cry 2.5x more than if you didn't have this set bonus. So, instead of a 15s Rallying Cry (with legacy), you actually end up with a Rallying Cry (with legacy) looking like this :
So from 15s to 6s. This basically means anytime you get a defeat response you will be able to use a rallying cry since your defeat response last for 8s.
Now, for the 2nd 3 piece set:
As you'll notice, I once again have the 3 peice set equipped. It's not about the stats, its all about the set bonus you get. The -25% Escape from Darkness Cooldown is really what you are aiming for. This 3 piece set essentially makes the captain have....by far, the best in combat res in the game. I'll show you why. If you trait for Escape from Darkness (blue line), and you have the legacy on your emblem, your Escape from Darkness will look like this.
What you should be looking at is the Cooldown for Escape from Darkness. Notice that this 10m TRAITED skill becomes 2m30s! That is by far the best in combat res in the game.
If you want 6s Rallying Cry, and 2m30s Escape from Darkness, you need to invest the time to acquire both 3 piece sets from the moors on your cappy. It does wonders in pve.
I understand why cappies get the sets, but its just wrong. PvE raids that i lead (rarely these days), i make sure no one wears PvP sets.
Bizarre attitude, but if you lead raids I guess you can make such arbitrary rules. Glad to not attend though. Do you also ban PvP jewelry or the rank 8 standard? Funky.
And to OP, yes, it is a bit odd that the best bonuses for PvE are on PvP sets. And you left off the Command set, which is the best of the lot for the DPS races that seem to dominate some raids...
Last edited by DelgonTheWise; Jul 10 2012 at 12:59 PM.
What you should be looking at is the Cooldown for Escape from Darkness. Notice that this 10m TRAITED skill becomes 2m30s! That is by far the best in combat res in the game.
What are you doing that needs an IC rez every 2m30s? What with CD resetting at the start of boss fights.
It makes sense in PvP where death rate is high and CD don't reset, but in PvE? I'd take the 3 piece Dagor every time.
Yeah, something needs to be done about this situation. I don't mind PvP gear being useful for PvE, but in this case the set bonuses from the PvP gear just blow away the set bonuses you get from Orthanc. Especially at the 3-piece level.
The only one that really compares is Dagor's 3-set that reduces the Shadow's Lament cooldown when you hit with BoE... which, oh by the way, stacks with the Perseverance cooldown reduction and makes Dagor/Pers + LtC the absolute dominant choice for both damage and healing output. Thanks for giving us armour set bonuses that wipe out the only point to an entire trait line.
I do agree with the OP, but I'm going to talk G13 Gamepad again.
With it, I get the benefits of MULTIPLE set bonuses, without having to manually load gear.
I get:
11.25 minute Last Stand Cooldown
+600 tac mit. on motivated speech for group
-4 sec on SL cooldown from BoE
20% reduction on all On Defeats
5 sec slow immunity from Make Haste for group
+25% chance power return on Defensive Strike under BoE
*** soon to have *** 2.5 minute Rez Cooldown
This thing is only $59.99 from Amazon, which is less than the legendary edition of Rohan. And, unlike Rohan, you will actually BE a legendary captain with this purchase.
It requires effort, though. Effort that you are rewarded for. Anything else is just not trying hard enough.
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This thing is only $59.99 from Amazon, which is less than the legendary edition of Rohan. And, unlike Rohan, you will actually BE a legendary captain with this purchase.
It requires effort, though. Effort that you are rewarded for. Anything else is just not trying hard enough.
You are welcome to think so.
I consider using devices like that not suitable for my personal gameplay values. I swap manually for the things I feel compelled to (buffs, SOW, rez, TON). I don't want my gameplay "enhanced" by automation. Doesn't agree with my notion of how things should be. My choosing not to go get and program a macroing device is not due to a lack of funds or laziness...
I'd be pleased if they were banned myself. Would likewise be happy if in-combat armor swaps didn't work, as they are ridiculous. Weapons swaps are VAGUELY plausible, but changing your heavy armor suit while engaged with one or more foes is a bizarre concept. But I realize everyone draws the line in a different place, and what is allowed by Turbine is allowed. I use buffbars, some might consider than an "unfair" game enhancement, so, well, each to their own...
Last edited by DelgonTheWise; Jul 10 2012 at 01:07 PM.
Yeah, something needs to be done about this situation. I don't mind PvP gear being useful for PvE, but in this case the set bonuses from the PvP gear just blow away the set bonuses you get from Orthanc. Especially at the 3-piece level.
The only one that really compares is Dagor's 3-set that reduces the Shadow's Lament cooldown when you hit with BoE... which, oh by the way, stacks with the Perseverance cooldown reduction and makes Dagor/Pers + LtC the absolute dominant choice for both damage and healing output. Thanks for giving us armour set bonuses that wipe out the only point to an entire trait line.
Yep, 3 Perseverence is too good, as is 5 Command IMHO.
It wouldn't be so awful if you needed rank to use the PvP sets -- at least it would take a significant effort comparable to raiding to get them -- though I still think it isn't quite right that PvP sets are > TOO sets for raids/solo content. But you don't even need to take your Captain out to the moors at all -- can get Commendations from creep play or alts or whatever. If there were a rank requirement, at least it wouldn't be quite as easy to get the PvP armor. It takes only time, not far as I can tell much skill as I'm not great at PvP and have 8 pieces.
I agree that Moors gear set bonuses far outweigh the minor stat loss and zero value of audacity in PvE. The Moors grind is the most grueling in the game and I feel the bonuses need to be that good to off-set the loss of aforementioned stats. If said bonuses happen to be good in PvE, then so be it...whether they're better is purely situational.
5 piece Command is by far the best set for at least 3/5 bosses in Orthanc. Also it goes to 10% incoming damage rather than 5% like it says. I honestly think it can be the variable that will make your raid win or lose.
Compare that to ~200 power return on crit from the 5 piece Orthanc DPS set.
Compare that to ~200 power return on crit from the 5 piece Orthanc DPS set.
Or +300 Tactical Mit on Motivating Speech, from the 5-piece bonus Orthanc tanking set. I mean, it's nice to have, but super underwhelming compared to any of the PvP 3-set bonuses.
Audacity was specifically introduced to make PvE gear undesirable for the Moors, and Moors gear undesirable for PvE.
The Captain set boni break this stated goal big time.
Originally Posted by Mr.Mirkwood
I agree that Moors gear set bonuses far outweigh the minor stat loss and zero value of audacity in PvE. The Moors grind is the most grueling in the game and I feel the bonuses need to be that good to off-set the loss of aforementioned stats. If said bonuses happen to be good in PvE, then so be it...whether they're better is purely situational.
There is no loss of stats. One point of Audacity gives you ample extra capability, more than off-setting any puny extra a traditional stat-unit could bring... And no, in the Captain case, -20% CD on 4 defeat event skills is always beneficial and never situational.
Even moreso when it enables a LtC Captain to pump out more heals than a HoH Captain.
Last edited by Vandervahn; Jul 11 2012 at 02:31 AM.
Or +300 Tactical Mit on Motivating Speech, from the 5-piece bonus Orthanc tanking set. I mean, it's nice to have, but super underwhelming compared to any of the PvP 3-set bonuses.
600 Mitigation....
and compared to 3-set bonus of loyalty-set a nice to have
Bizarre attitude, but if you lead raids I guess you can make such arbitrary rules. Glad to not attend though. Do you also ban PvP jewelry or the rank 8 standard? Funky.
And to OP, yes, it is a bit odd that the best bonuses for PvE are on PvP sets. And you left off the Command set, which is the best of the lot for the DPS races that seem to dominate some raids...
PvP armour in a PvE world, and you find that ok? I dont, but like i said i understand why others do.
PvP should have nothin to do with PvE, they should really sort that out, take back the rank requirment, past R9 though for a full set.
Getting 3 is not difficult, more so if you play creep or pvp alot.
Theres nothin worse than inspecting a captain in PvE land only see he has PvP armour on, same is for any class really, but turbine yet again gimp us into making these sets needed, or expected.
Pers set is the worst, i thought we but the hele set days behind us :-(
PvP armour in a PvE world, and you find that ok? I dont, but like i said i understand why others do.
PvP should have nothin to do with PvE, they should really sort that out, take back the rank requirment, past R9 though for a full set.
Getting 3 is not difficult, more so if you play creep or pvp alot.
Theres nothin worse than inspecting a captain in PvE land only see he has PvP armour on, same is for any class really, but turbine yet again gimp us into making these sets needed, or expected.
Pers set is the worst, i thought we but the hele set days behind us :-(
Moors rings are critical to my tactical mit build - banner is well, uber.
3 Perserverance = extremely high DPS and healing output in LtC, or amazing healing w/ 3 Gallant Commander in HoH.
To stonewall PvMP gear just because it's PvMP gear is a fairly stupid and naive thing to do.
That said, I do agree that the audacity armor needs to be better for the 'Moors, and worse for PvE.
Last edited by Almagnus1; Jul 11 2012 at 04:03 AM.
I understand why cappies get the sets, but its just wrong. PvE raids that i lead (rarely these days), i make sure no one wears PvP sets.
Originally Posted by MessyR
Theres nothin worse than inspecting a captain in PvE land only see he has PvP armour on, same is for any class really, but turbine yet again gimp us into making these sets needed, or expected.
This is a silly attitude to take. While sure, it's an issue that PvP gear is more desirable in PvE than PvE gear, don't fault the player for using what may be the best options available.
3-set preserverance is OP ( as much as helegrod gear used to be ).
However , raid bosses (maybe 6-mans as well) are totally different than they used too.
Tell me one boss in ToO that you may benefit from the 6 sec RC.
Only exception is acid when adds spawn and MAYBE shadow , just maybe , depending on how you do it.
There are not that many death events on ToO bosses, and on 6-mans like foundry to make you bother getting the pvp gear to benefit there.You always have to spent 1 death event every min or so on warcry.The mistress days are gone T_T.Sure , it can be good for trash b4 bosses , but give me a break , who can bother ... I believe ToO blue set is still the best for pve/raiding/healing captain . ( the one with WoC inc healing ) It provides more healing ( tactical mastery ) and more might than PvP set, in the cost of very nerfed morale pool and mitigations though.
As far as the escape of darkness cd.Yes it works , but will you ever need it ??? I doubt it............ Highly....
If you get so many deaths that causes the 2 minstrels and 2 captains in a raid to run out of resses , then you obviously do something wrong. It just doesnt worth it wasting a full-tiered-up legacy + a class slot for this,you will rarely use it on pve, and you will NEVER use it if you do things right.
Bottom line , those 2 bonuses are only good for PVP,nowhere else , thats my opinion.
Now as far as command set is concerned , THAT can actually make a difference , due to set 5, but then again , just maybe.
Remember that you always sacrifice stats to get those sets built up to 5 since audacity is no good in pve.Perhaps it doesnt worth it bothering with it either.
PVP sets are definately awesome for pvp , but pve ??? I don't think so..........
Quite frankly, I believe captain self stat differences between sets become irrelevant, at least for the DPS and CC heavy encounters of Orthanc. Survivability, pretty much the same.
Buffs, To Arms, Oathies, Marks are some of the top things that matter, and don't rely on stats. Hence it becomes an issue of deciding whatever set has the best bonus for the raid, including but not limited to the current PvMP selections.
...
Tell me one boss in ToO that you may benefit from the 6 sec RC.
Dont forget that shadows Lament has reduced cooldowns as well. Leading to a notable increase in defeat events and sheer DPS (if traited 5R). Relieving healers so they have more time to work THEIR magic.
Now as far as command set is concerned , THAT can actually make a difference , due to set 5, but then again , just maybe.
Remember that you always sacrifice stats to get those sets built up to 5 since audacity is no good in pve.Perhaps it doesnt worth it bothering with it either.
PVP sets are definately awesome for pvp , but pve ??? I don't think so...
Chars have, factoring in legacies, relics and traits, the equivalent of about 20 equipment slots.
Carrying 5 pieces of moors gear means that you have 3.5% less potential stats than with PvE gear. And that is all stats, including those that might not be relevant in a given situation (like common mitigation isnt relevant in a Raid bossfight).
Compare that with a potential effectivity increase of Rallying cry alone of up to 250%. Some set boni blow any stat increase out of the water.
3-set preserverance is OP ( as much as helegrod gear used to be ).
However , raid bosses (maybe 6-mans as well) are totally different than they used too.
Tell me one boss in ToO that you may benefit from the 6 sec RC.
Only exception is acid when adds spawn and MAYBE shadow , just maybe , depending on how you do it.
Easy. Saruman T1. Trait red, pressing attack several times a minute. I did that last night, and if i wasn't swapping between that and Command, I wouldn't have gotten off so many Rally Cries. And RC is better than just trying to spot heal 6 people with WoC.
Easy. Saruman T1. Trait red, pressing attack several times a minute. I did that last night, and if i wasn't swapping between that and Command, I wouldn't have gotten off so many Rally Cries. And RC is better than just trying to spot heal 6 people with WoC.
I can assure you that whatever you gear or trait in saruman t1 , will allow you to heal just fine.I was referring to t2 fights, should have mentioned .T2 would prove much harder.
And no , i totally disagree , i believe i can heal much more blue traited , with ToO gear ( using both WoC , RC with larder cd , inspires etc) , than swapping pvp gears and spamming RC's as fast as i can with red traits. + That your fellowship wont regen power in phases 3,4,5 from RC trait. Unless you manage to slot 5 reds , and 1 blue ( or 5 red 2 blues for banner as well ),sacrificing the 2 yellow set , which personally i've never even bothered trying in raid , because of the mark cds.I believe 2 yellows is a must ( for marks and mostly because i love composure , 2 RC's in a row is just epic and ofc there is to arms legacy as well , which can't be ignored) , but a couple of blues are a total must-have as well for raids.
Pressing attack targets isnt a guarantee death event after all .Yes , the chance is very big but not certain.And anyway , t2 saruman wouldnt allow you to stack up that many sarumans to benefit from aoe. Its also risky , because you might break some CC in the process. What you suggest , might work just fine in t1 , but thats about it , and i doubt anyone would spend all those tones of commendations just to benefit in a t1 saruman fight.
I do agree with the OP, but I'm going to talk G13 Gamepad again.
With it, I get the benefits of MULTIPLE set bonuses, without having to manually load gear.
I get:
11.25 minute Last Stand Cooldown
+600 tac mit. on motivated speech for group
-4 sec on SL cooldown from BoE
20% reduction on all On Defeats
5 sec slow immunity from Make Haste for group
+25% chance power return on Defensive Strike under BoE
*** soon to have *** 2.5 minute Rez Cooldown
This thing is only $59.99 from Amazon, which is less than the legendary edition of Rohan. And, unlike Rohan, you will actually BE a legendary captain with this purchase.
... i swear you're a rep for this stupid gamepad. We get it, you're cool cause you bought a gamepad for 60$. It's probably a TOS violation but hey they won't punish you for it, so who cares.
btw you also carry around 3-4 different armor sets, enjoy those repair costs; Not to mention you apparently farmed up all 3 moors sets in commendations, so you're also VIP, and had a lot of time on your hands.
------
Aside from the command set, the sets actually make wonderful sense in PvP. Command set I guess might be great for 1v1's, although I think I'd rather have Perserverance.
The healing you get from 6s rally cry is pretty massive and basically nullifies by itself any creep aoe's (because creep aoe's suck).
Most raids, except saruman, last less than 5 minutes anyway. That 2.5 minute cooldown on EfD isn't going to make much difference. But in the moors... It's going to let the captain have an IC res off cooldown most of the time. That can be a pretty big deal.
Still... I wish the bonuses weren't usable in PvE. Especially now that the only way to get them is to be VIP.
I can assure you that whatever you gear or trait in saruman t1 , will allow you to heal just fine.I was referring to t2 fights, should have mentioned .T2 would prove much harder.
And no , i totally disagree , i believe i can heal much more blue traited , with ToO gear ( using both WoC , RC with larder cd , inspires etc) , than swapping pvp gears and spamming RC's as fast as i can with red traits. + That your fellowship wont regen power in phases 3,4,5 from RC trait. Unless you manage to slot 5 reds , and 1 blue ( or 5 red 2 blues for banner as well ),sacrificing the 2 yellow set , which personally i've never even bothered trying in raid , because of the mark cds.I believe 2 yellows is a must ( for marks and mostly because i love composure , 2 RC's in a row is just epic and ofc there is to arms legacy as well , which can't be ignored) , but a couple of blues are a total must-have as well for raids.
My experience in T2 ToO is Acid T2C, Lightning T2C, and F&F T2. I agree that in all of those the 6s Rallying Cry is not so potent. I am typically designated the Command Set captain in my raid group, so I don't often take advantage of the 22s Shadow's Lament from the Perseverance set. Perseverance sure makes the trash a breeze.
Saruman T2, we'll we're gonna take a crack at that some time. Meant to yesterday, didn't have a full raid group. Gonna try 5r/2b once or twice at least; if those fellas aren't clustered up for me to make the full use of red capstone's increased number of PA's/min, I anticipate having to go 5b/2y no capstone, or maybe 2r/2y/3b.
As for traiting red in Saruman T1: I go 5r/2b. Relentless Optimism and NfW are must haves. My fellowship WILL regen power. I don't consider 2 yellow's must haves; Red capstone can count for more damage than +5s to BB to arms. Kinda miss the mark CD, but you and the other capt can just alternate marks and switch targets right before the current target dies to get around that.
My 5r/2b Rally cries are 94% of what they would be if I were HoH.
WoC ~84% of what they would be HoH
Inspire legacy never makes the cut for me so my red inspires are about 90% as effective (estimate) as my HoH ones.
%s from http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ng-Comparisons
Those RC's come a lot quicker though, which counts for a lot. Better to counter frost attack burst AoE damage with burst AoE heals.
3x perserverance is so blatantly overpowered for every PVE captain traitline (with capstone) it's a joke. But that doesn't mean it doesn't fit well in PvP. I have no clue... Why they didn't make it 4x. That would've at least limited the usefulness while combining it with ToO gear.
You tanking? 3x perserverance lowers the cd of routing cry. You can nearly tank a boss with continuous force taunts.
You dps'ing? You can get shadow's lament to a 14s cooldown combined with 3x dagor. Captain's are having threat problems SL is off CD so much.
You healing? Well... It's true, Depending on the adds in a fight, it may be meaningless. But on the offchance you get a crit response right before an add dies, (happens all the time to me in lightning) perserverance just netted you an extra rally cry.
Lightning has limrafn's, that'll be at least 2 defeat events per fight. Possibly more... Depending how fast your group is.
FnF is such a broken stupid fight that to my knowledge only one group has completed it, and not at all the way it was designed. FnF T2 has arguably more trash-adds than any other wing, but nobody's actually killing them because the fight's designed poorly.
Acid has a lot, if you aren't burg-zerging it.
Shadow has a lot. If you disagree you may be forgetting about roots.
Saruman... Since you can use PA on multiple sarumans for 90% of the fight, it's pretty easy to keep a 15s RC on cooldown nearly the whole fight.
So... I guess my point is i'm inclined to disagree that 6s rally cry doesn't come in useful during raiding. And even if you didn't like it... you can still do 3x pers/3x dagor while 5r for some incredible damage & tons of crit responses.
... i swear you're a rep for this stupid gamepad. We get it, you're cool cause you bought a gamepad for 60$. It's probably a TOS violation but hey they won't punish you for it, so who cares.
btw you also carry around 3-4 different armor sets, enjoy those repair costs; Not to mention you apparently farmed up all 3 moors sets in commendations, so you're also VIP, and had a lot of time on your hands.
Nothing to do with being cool, just doing the best I can. Anyone with the money to purchase this game has enough to purchase the G13... Which is a fantastic addition to ANY game, not just LotRO, as well as tons of application for general computing. It relieves a lot of carpal tunnel issues, too.
Nothing stupid about it. It's a fantastic addition, even if you don't use the macros, and simply replace your keyboard clicks with the gamepad. It's a lot more intuitive than the keyboard. Turbine has said that it is *not* a TOS violation to use it.
Repair costs happen a lot less when you die less often. Mostly its just weapon damage. Yep, I am VIP, but I only have 11 pieces of spare gear (plus 6 extra LIs).
I like captains, and I want captains to be their best. A G13 helps with that. Why not espouse it? Quite a few people in our kinship use one, and they are indispensable once you try.
I do wish you had been more positive in your first reply to me.
I am Blackhawk, Leader of S T R A Y H O L D Forum~Roster ~ Events ~Chat!
~Member of the 2013 Player Council ~ ...We were not ready to find Aztaur the Balrog, the Frozen Death, the Ice Demon of Thangorodrim. But Find Him We Did...
I was probably in a bad mood, you seem like a decent fellow. I apologize.
I think part of my malice is you've taken swapping to an extreme, which is exactly why it shouldn't be allowed; Swapping weapons is plausible, changing out an armor set is kind of a joke. Turbine is unlikely to change that so I'll just have to deal with it.
Anyway my count from your post was you had 5 pieces of tognir for the MS boost.
3 pieces of perserverance for the DE cooldown.
+2 pieces of perserverance for improved make haste
3 pieces of dagor for the SL cooldown
3 pieces of command for the LS cooldown,
*soon to have 2.5 minute res cd, which is 3 pieces of the loyalty set.
In total i count 16 pieces if you want all those bonuses; Maybe you can leave 2 at home if you don't need make haste.
Anyway you can accomplish the same thing as your gamepad with Auto Hotkey (plugin) for anyone interested. I've heard it's all the rage for pve burgs.
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