Thread: How to Properly Roleplay 'Magic' (?)

Hello Landroval,
I've been on this server for quite some time now, and have done enough inside, and outside the game to call myself a rather experienced Roleplayer. However I have had a hard time coming to the conclusion whether players can use magic in the game. I currently have an Elf Rune-Keeper, and simply play him as a scholar, and linguist. Keeping the Rune-Stone spells outside of LotRO.

But lately I've had an interest in rolling a Man Lore-Master Spellcaster, keeping his identity secret as a simple magician, and alchemist. However I'm worried if a player knowing magic would be accepted, and where I would roleplay this at. I don't want to be famous on everyone's ignore list, and would like some help from players. Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

Heh, tough question it seems.

I know that true-to-the-lore-RPers would say: impossible, you are not an Istari like Gandalf. Lore-wise you can't be a magician, so don't include your class into your RP. But I play a RK, too and once I had the same question and got the same answers. And actually... it is true: Lore-wise you really can't be a magician.

Knowing that I went another way which connects to how Turbine set-up the RK class (they are -basically- storytellers).

In the stories I have written for her as her lore I put it this way: My RK can't use magic (period) but is able to talk to people in a way they don't really recognize but which conjures images in their imagination which can be whatever she wants them to be. In one of my stories (they currently are in German only, translation is in the works) Glenwins mother (who is a RK, too) fights a dragon by talking to him and putting images of frost, snow and blizzards into his mind. The dragon believes these images are the reality and retreats. Later -while on a journey with her family- she puts the images of a thunderstorm in the minds of her children (to demonstrate her powers and explain them how she fought the dragon) and puts a tree on fire by slashing a thunderbolt into it. But she puts it in a way that the flame is not hot which makes Glenwin aware of the fact that what she sees is not real. So in my stories the RK class does exist (and now comes the disappointment for everyone who liked this take on RK's) and is very powerful but in fact they are so powerful that they use their power of words only when absolutely necessary and only in secret so normal people would not fear them.

In other words: If you see Glenwin running around in Bree... you will never notice who she really is. To you she is just an elf.

Still this take gives me a great oppurtunity to write some stories with my own characters in them. Go here for the first (of currently only two chapters in English) if you want to read them: http://www.glenwin-und-floradine.net/?p=573

Short answer: You don't. There is no "magic" in Middle-earth.

A longer answer will have to wait until after I get back from out of town.

There is no Magic, Only Power that was allotted long ago in the First Age.

Originally Posted by Fionnuala

Short answer: You don't. There is no "magic" in Middle-earth.

A longer answer will have to wait until after I get back from out of town.

Pfft. I have a top hat and rabbit that say you are about to be AMAZED!!




If you are going to properly role play a "magician" you had better work on getting a name that starts with a "Z"

Hello there! We leave the magic to the Istari, yes, but that doesn't mean that you can't be a poet as a runekeeper, or be an alchemist. I don't consider alchemy as magic per se. I have a loremaster who has a kindred with birds, and uses little slight of hand tricks to fool people. Not actual magic. I don't know if this is helpful to you, but I hope you can find the answer you seek.

I may be taking my fate in my hands with this response, but I'll say it anyway...

I spend time with a great number of dedicated lore afficianados, and it's entirely possible that a "magician" will never be a really acceptable RP outlet, but there *is* some degree of precedence for loremasters (and, frankly, Runekeepers as well)

What I suspect Fionnuala is about to say is true...there's no real *magic* in the world of middle earth, at least according to most interpretations of the lore - there is "knowledge" of the fundamental nature of the world, which is where most elf "magic" comes from - it's not *really* magic, it's just that they have such a deep, thorough connection to the very fundamental nature of the world, and an understanding of it, that they can control it, or compel it, in ways that most mortal creatures can't.

then there's sorcery. typically, sorcery is defined as evil - it's generally a perversion of the above - *forcing* the world to reshape itself in ways it was never meant to, or to satisfy one's own desire to dominate and control - this is generally the nature of Sauron and Morgoth - they too have the understanding of the world and how it works, but they abuse this knowledge to shape the world, or defile it, to serve their own needs and desires

now, I'm not entirely sure where people would classify the power of the istari/wizards, the valar and such - I think it's a certain degree of inherent power combined with the above knowledge of the nature of the world - these beings are empowered to make things happen in the world, but are sort of bound by an inherent responsibility only to use these powers to either create, or to prevent abuse - they're not really free to just spew magic willy-nilly depending on whatever desire they have at the moment

Loremasters are, presumably, meant to be some of the above - they have very barely wizard-like in-game powers, which I imagine are mostly meant to be representative of the fact that they have studied elf-lore, wizard lore, history, the nature of the world - what have you, until they have gleaned just a sliver of the collective knowledge of the valar, or the Istari, or what have you - this is why they can know the word that summons a burst of light that stuns the abominable dead, or can look back into lost lore to determine the nature and weaknesses of their enemies, or a word that summons elemental fire that can be used to blast the foes of the free people.

now, I'll be the first to admit, the very existence of RK's and LM's is a...stretch...of lore. They are the uncomfortable fusion of desire to keep with Lore, and the desire to create familiar game mechanics so that people will have a spell-caster class to play with, in a world that really shouldn't have one, but *could* arguably have something *like* that

all of this is just general observation and a little first-hand knowledge - as far as your question, I suggest the following

You want to RP a Loremaster - be my guest. You can be as outlandishly magical as you want, and the people who can handle that can love it, the people who can't will /ignore you, and never the twain shall meet. HOWEVER...

if you want to try and accommodate as many of the lore-afficianados as you can (and you'll probably never make EVERYONE happy - don't even try), I'd recommend keeping with some of the above - you are, quite literally, a LORE master - you study ancient lore - the lore of great elf historians, of long-lost texts of numenorean kings - you could have quite a bit of fun making-up where you found a scrap of ancient text from an ashen volume where you learned the word that summons fire from the ether, and wonder whether that knowledge is profane, or comes from a *pure* source

all in all, though, Loremaster or not, I'd avoid making your lore and "powers" a key feature of your character - much like the passage of time, or anything that ties to a fixed point in lore (like you're having met the fellowship in Rivendell when other players are still talking to Aragorn in the Pony) your *class* is one of those MMO contrivances that it's probably best to try and gloss over as often as possible. Build your character around your "character" - your origins, your motivations, dreams and aspirations, fears and disappointments.

Originally Posted by phermitgb

What I suspect Fionnuala is about to say is true...there's no real *magic* in the world of middle earth, at least according to most interpretations of the lore - there is "knowledge" of the fundamental nature of the world, which is where most elf "magic" comes from - it's not *really* magic, it's just that they have such a deep, thorough connection to the very fundamental nature of the world, and an understanding of it, that they can control it, or compel it, in ways that most mortal creatures can't.

This is not quite accurate. It's not really about understanding the nature of the world, because Middle-earth is OUR world, earth, and has the same nature. The world its self is not fantastic.

"Magic" is about the difference in the natures of Elves (the immortal race) and the other mortal races. It is inherent to the nature of Elves because Elves have a much stronger fea (spirit) than their hroa (body). What this means is that their spirits are able to influence physical matter, including their bodies, in a way that the mortal races cannot. The fea and hroa are more balanced in the mortal races.

Tolkien wrote in his letters that the only race who is able to do "magic" naturally is the Elves. (Thus the RK would be a lot more lore appropriate if it was an Elf only class.) But he viewed Elven "magic" as more akin to art than anything else. Art is how created being express their inherent urge to use their natural abilities to sub-create. And Elven art appears magical because their natural abilities are so heightened by the dominion of their fea over their hroa. They naturally achieve art that no mortal race can. All Elven magic is merely an expression of their natural abilities through art.

Sorcery is another more complex matter. The closest any Elf has come to sorcery was the creation of the Rings of Power, for their were made to change the nature of the world through coercive means. Tolkien tells us that this is the only event where Elves came so close to the type of "magic" the enemy uses. Men are much more susceptible to being corrupted into using sorcery. Sorcery is not natural, it does not come from a person's innate skills or talents, but from an outside source, such as Sauron.

The Lore-Master is an interesting case. Since both Elves and Men can be Lore-Masters, but Men do not have any natural "magic" (the exception being bloodlines where Elven blood was passed down, such as in Aragorn's case) therefore Lore-Masters cannot really be considered (for RP purposes) to be a magic using class. I prefer to think of them in these terms...

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. ~Arthur C. Clarke

Lore-Masters (the class) are a case where they have a better understanding of the nature of the world than most people. And they use that understanding to achieve feats which appears to be magic, but are really more akin to science. They are, if you like, the scientists of Middle-earth, but they aren't sharing their knowledge with everybody. Perhaps because they fear it falling into enemy hands, perhaps because they know that most people could not handle the knowledge they have been trained to wield. Similar perhaps, if you are familiar with it, to the technomages of the Babylon 5 sci fi universe.

An Elf would never refer to any of their abilities as "magic". They do not see it that way. I find if you just avoid such terms as "magic" and "spells" what you are doing will already appear more natural. Learn to think of your RK's abilities as a natural expression of his nature, his art. And for LMs, learn to think of your abilities as the use of advanced knowledge which the layman cannot understand.

I've always found RPing a RK to be next to impossible, but I believe a loremaster could be done to an extent. I think someone mentioned it up above, but you could play, for instance, the fireball off as just chemistry. So essentially, you could have the loremaster be a battlefield chemist, but as far as having a pet bear... that can get a bit iffy. Birds would work though, I should think.

I am not a lore buff, or even close..but, besides the Istari, weren't there also other types of "magical" devices? Such as the doors of Durin? Other rings of power? Magical weapons? (Glamdring, and Sting)? And also aren't Elves capable of certain Nature type of "magic",(Elrond flooding the Bruinien Gorge)?

As i said I am sorry to admit, i know half as much as the lore i should like, and i should like to know more than half as i well deserve..
That said..can anyone elaborate on these points a bit more? Just that from what i read here, many seem to think, you must be Istari to have ANY type of power. Which may be the case, but can anyone explain why?

Originally Posted by HITTMAN305

I am not a lore buff, or even close..but, besides the Istari, weren't there also other types of "magical" devices? Such as the doors of Durin? Other rings of power? Magical weapons? (Glamdring, and Sting)? And also aren't Elves capable of certain Nature type of "magic",(Elrond flooding the Bruinien Gorge)?

As i said I am sorry to admit, i know half as much as the lore i should like, and i should like to know more than half as i well deserve..
That said..can anyone elaborate on these points a bit more? Just that from what i read here, many seem to think, you must be Istari to have ANY type of power. Which may be th case, but can anyone explain why?

Elves have power--more than mortals, but less than the Maiar (who include the Istari). It is much easier to role-play a 'magic' user (in LotRO 'tactical' skill user) as an elf. In a Middle-earth mod of Neverwinter Nights, I used to engage in extensive role-play as an ancient elf of one of the magic-user classes. I got around the 'magic' issue by frequent reference to art and sub-creation, or by not discussing it at all but keeping it in the background.

Elves would take their inherent abilities for granted; only when exposed to members of other races would those abilities even come into question. And not all elves are gifted in equal measure or in the same ways. A good example is Elrond, who in addition to being a master of lore was also an exceptional healer. Elves are masters of language, especially the Noldor, which gives them a leg up for the rune-keeper role. Indeed, their name for themselves is the Quendi, 'those who speak with voices.'

I think it would be much harder to role-play a human with 'magical' powers, other than as someone who has deeply studied the ways of nature (the 'scientist' mentioned earlier), or as one earlier poster said, the ways of language and the power of words. These are available to gifted men and women in some measure, but they would probably need to be downplayed even more than the natural powers of the elves. Were I to role-play a human lore-master, for example, I might talk of a 'knack' with fire combined with study and experimentation for preparation of such weapons as an explosive sticky gourd, or 'psyching an enemy out' to lessen his confidence (SoP: Command).

I humbly defer to the (vastly more) lore-knowledgeable to correct me where I'm mistaken; but would it be reasonable to reckon that perhaps the most plausible (or least implausible, anyway) "mold" for a character of the RK class would be a long-lived (born late in the First Age or early in the Second) Noldor[in] Elf? And would such a character likely be one who, through extensive study as well as much experience throughout his/her millennia-long life, had gained exceptional facility with language and deep knowledge of lore and history? Being interested in the RK class because of its gameplay potential, and being keen on lore-appropriate RP, I'd like to have a character of said class who really "fits" in Middle-earth.

Originally Posted by Cuarlang

I humbly defer to the (vastly more) lore-knowledgeable to correct me where I'm mistaken; but would it be reasonable to reckon that perhaps the most plausible (or least implausible, anyway) "mold" for a character of the RK class would be a long-lived (born late in the First Age or early in the Second) Noldor[in] Elf? And would such a character likely be one who, through extensive study as well as much experience throughout his/her millennia-long life, had gained exceptional facility with language and deep knowledge of lore and history? Being interested in the RK class because of its gameplay potential, and being keen on lore-appropriate RP, I'd like to have a character of said class who really "fits" in Middle-earth.

Speaking as a RK, I'd play a Loremaster if you want a mage-type class that "fits" better into a lore-traditional ME setting and if you absolutely must make mention of your class skills in your RP. I find it very hard to justify and explain to others the lightning-bolts flying from my fingertips, or the huge glowing rock I conjured out of thin air, so I don't bother. TBH, I'd not mix any class skills into my RP to any great degree, no matter what class I played: it just doesn't interest me to do this.

Originally Posted by Cuarlang

I humbly defer to the (vastly more) lore-knowledgeable to correct me where I'm mistaken; but would it be reasonable to reckon that perhaps the most plausible (or least implausible, anyway) "mold" for a character of the RK class would be a long-lived (born late in the First Age or early in the Second) Noldor[in] Elf? And would such a character likely be one who, through extensive study as well as much experience throughout his/her millennia-long life, had gained exceptional facility with language and deep knowledge of lore and history? Being interested in the RK class because of its gameplay potential, and being keen on lore-appropriate RP, I'd like to have a character of said class who really "fits" in Middle-earth.

The question isn't really what type of Elven heritage best goes with the RK. The question is, how much of the actual RK mechanics are you planning to use in your RP? Like Parnard pointed out, you don't have to include much of your class mechanics at all if you don't want to. You don't even have to acknowledge your class at all. There's no need to even use the name "Rune-Keeper" if you don't want to. With my RK, I do not ICly call her a "Rune-Keeper". She is merely a "Healer" and I ignore all of her abilities save the healing ones. These options are particularly important with the RK since no amount of studying language, lore and history will account for how a character can summon lightning. (You just can't do that in Middle-earth.)

Yes, that's what I mean. Don't get hung up on your class dictating who your character is and what they're all about. It is much more liberating and creative to find your own identity rather than trying to 'mold' your character to fit Turbine's (sometimes preposterous, occasionally wacky) conceits.

I guess you could roleplay him like some kind of mentalist (actual "magician") like Patrick Jane (The mentalist TV series)... basically, someone that uses suggestion, hypnosis, stories and that kind of stuff, as well as illusions.