Thread: Apparel Dummies...

Ok people I think we need a hotfix asap.

Option1: remove the dummies.

Option2: Put them ONLY in the starter areas MD, Thorin's Hall and Bree. They should be inside a store or with a proper store caravan plus the outfits npc.

I knew that this would happen when I read the patch notes, I cant believe they are all over Middle Earth.

Originally Posted by raychmo

@Calta - I guess we just have different priorities in what we want to see with the game. I don't need a 100% authentic experience because I'd rather see the game reach the finale instead of abruptly end from insufficient funds.

But they don't have insufficient funds. Every time we turn around Turbine keeps telling us how much money the F2P conversion has brought in, how RoI was the best selling expansion they've ever had and that RoR is selling well. If all that's not true then implementing something this obviously devisive is not going to help them and may even hurt them in the long run.

I normally don't jump on bandwagons for complaining, but I cannot be quiet on this one. I love this game. I think the beauty of it surpasses even WoW. And the player base, for the most part, are generous, kind, and polite people. But this.... I have not bought RoR yet, and unless these dummies are removed or there are less of them (starter areas ONLY) I may not buy it. Someone else said it best. I'm worried they will come alive and start a teenage-vampire romance with me. And while you were working on this, Turbine, the music sound issue is STILL there. You cannot see the forest for the trees! I can't blame the devs, since they might only be doing what they were told to work on, whether they liked it or not. And considering how many people are against this idea.... I would like to see a CM replying to all this. They may not be able to say much, or even have much information to relay, but just a confirmation that our words will be brought to a higher up would be nice. I know some of the people at Turbine still care about the spirit this game was done in. I would like to see these people, players and Turbine staff, speak up and keep this game alive! For Tolkien!

Originally Posted by Dotlbeme

Surprised they used the word 'Dummy'. Wouldn't it be more politically correct to use the word 'Model'? After all, the term 'dummy' can be thought of as a slur to the develpmentally challenged.

So, I guess you would go to Vegas and watch a ventriliquist talk to a model instead of is dummy?

Apparel dummies? Everywhere?! Why? Are they kidding us or what?!
This is Middle-Earth, not a shopping center!

Is it April? Is it a dev joke? They better retcon that idea and quick.

They could have made this oh so much better. They could have hidden these mannequins in a few appropriate locations. People would make it their mission to seek them out! They could have been wearing different outfits at each location, and appropriate to the locale. They needn't all be merchant type shops, some could be armorers or supply tents (like in Stangard). Could have been epic, that Sithric was promoting gawdy apparel rather than getting supplies the fort actually needed!

I think I am going to find it hard to travel around and not laugh every time I see one of these displays. I'd be curious to see how much TP gets spent on this. We have to hope it is not a lot, and it might be a good idea to officially boycott this intrusion to make sure it gets the axe.

Count me in for being ticked off too, I hope this thread reaches a hundred pages!

Sorry, but this is a really bad (looking) idea - please remove them.

This... is INCREDIBLY HILARIOUS. Laughing so hard, omg.

Originally Posted by Schreik

If I were one of their talented landscape devs I'd be truly upset. It's like painting a masterpiece of a landscape, and then have some hoodlum come along with a can of spray paint and put in rude and crass images, utterly detroying the atmosphere that you worked so hard to create.

That's an apt simile.

I rarely post on the forums, actually I'm not sure I have, but I felt the need to express my displeasure at this monstrosity. What sets LOTRO apart from other mmorpgs is the setting and story. I just talked two friends into coming back to the game because of this after I excitedly told them of my recent exploits in Middle Earth (yes I'm geeky). Funny thing is I'm not even a LOTR fan, haven't read the books or seen the movies. However the game play is unlike any other game I've come across and it's the reason I am so passionate about it.

I'm cringing right now and feel silly, thanks. I regret asking them to leave their games to come back.

Anyway, I'm a yearly subscriber, I buy TP and support the game financially. I even tried to buy RoR but the credit card glitch prevented me from doing that (don't get me started on that issue). It was a blessing in disguise because if this is the way the game is heading, I'm not sure I want to spend additional money on it and might go elsewhere. This is a shame because I love this game so much. I'm all for Turbine making money to ensure the future of the game but this crossed the line....big time. I cannot believe this has been implemented, I mean I'm absolutely floored that they decided to put advertising IN THE GAME. I went from trying to buy RoR to letting my subscription run out based on this decision. I don't expect anyone to care or for my post to make a difference but I felt the need to share.

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

So, I guess you would go to Vegas and watch a ventriliquist talk to a model instead of is dummy?

Most ventriliquists do not refer to their dummies as 'dummies' and you miss the point. With all the PC-ness of the naming filter, they choose to use the word 'dummy'. I forgot though, they do use the word in 'training dummy' and it would be hard to find a PC name for those.

I don't mind the term, but some people might.

Apparel dummies = /fail

Oh come on now, Turbine, you can do better than this.

How about changing the random opening statements that NPC's make whenever I activate them ("You are not welcome here, Duvodiad!") to "I don't sell to Duvodiad, but how about visiting the LOTRO store today to fill all your needs in potions and equipment!"? How about billboards showing the latest store offers? How about displaying in the AH interface, next to any item that can also be bought in the store, something along the lines of "Too expensive? Afraid you will be outbid? Buy it from the store instead!"? There are so many better ways of making absolutely sure that players notice the store, if all the buttons in the interface aren't enough, that I really wonder why you came up with this instead.

Honestly though... no. I'm already paying to support this game (just to make sure that I'm not accused, as I was in the comments to the release note, of wanting "everything for nothing"). And I'm paying for it and playing it not because I want to play in a store that has a game grafted on top of it that has the sole purpose of getting people to buy things - I just got myself an Android phone, and quite a few of the few games for it that I've tried seem to be merely a lure mechanism for buying in-game currencies that could not be gotten through game play, and you know what? I uninstalled all of these games. Rather, I'm playing because I like the immersion into a world that has an actual history and lore behind it.

I only just entered Lothlorien with an alt of mine after spending a long while in Moria, and I really enjoyed the atmosphere, with the feeling of being in a special, magical place (although of course, Elves don't think they have magic). And now, I see that there are some absolutely illogical dummies placed smack bang in the middle of the central area, suggesting that the Elves there routinely sell clothes to men (who rarely go there), hobbits (who wouldn't want to go that far, and Dwarves (who wouldn't be allowed in).

I accept that for gameplay reasons, there are a number of ways in which this game cannot be "true to the books" if it is to be playable. However, this is a change that has been implemented with the sole intention of pointing players to ways to spend their money in a store that is not part of the actual game world, and I don't think that comparing this change to other ones, like playable hobbits, is a fair comparison.

You all are truly missing the point. These are just upgraded training dummy's. They're made with clothes to be more realistic, different races so you can choose your enemy, and the store link is a metaphor. Think of the dummy
as a personification of all that we see wrong with the direction the game is going and you can beat that direction to bloody death in your frustration!


Now that I think of it, they really should have allowed us to use our skills on them.....

Come on Turbine, this is crass commercialism at it's finest and tacky to boot.

I play VIP so I don't have to be subjected to this any more then I have to. Why am I still overly encouraged to visit the blasted store? I'm not into immersion perse, but this just makes my favorite haunt in Loth a serious eye sore.

You're better then this, don't turn this into a 'ville' game please.

This makes me nervous about what surprises are coming up for the expansion.

The more I think about this, the more irritated I get.

I don't typically play MMOs... I'm here because I am, first and foremost, a Tolkien fan. Yes, I'm aware that the developers have taken many liberties with the lore since LOTRO's inception. These apparel dummies don't just take liberties with the lore; they go an egregious step further than that.

I generally don't have a problem with the store. I've been a loyal subscriber for the past three years and have bought every expansion with real cash, so I don't use it for big ticket items like quest packs and instances (and I feel I'm doing my bit for the company by pumping money into the game every month -- even when I'm not playing all that much). Some of the store's convenience items are nice to have when I'm grinding out virtues, and I've made one or two cosmetic purchases since the store opened...but otherwise, it doesn't intrude upon my gaming experience, and I'm happy for that.

With this update, I can no longer ignore the store in-game. To the poster who suggested that we'll soon get used to this garish marketing ploy and pass over it: that's all fine and well if we're talking about billboards in Times Square. This is Middle-earth. The designers have given us a pretty faithful representation of Tolkien's world. It's marred slightly with graphical effects on legendary items and whatnot, but I can (for the most part) stand in Angmar and feel like I'm in Angmar. Store mannequins that draw attention to themselves with bright graphical bling completely ruin the feel for me.

I know it ultimately won't make a difference, but I've decided that to better express my displeasure with this update, I will not use the store while these apparel dummies are in the game. No reputation accelerators, no LI XP scrolls, no LI relic removal scrolls, no Moors skills, no cosmetics. And before you say "but you're VIP! You get those TPs for free!" I bought these convenience items often enough to necessitate TP purchase at least once a month.

In sum, Turbine: if you want me to spend money on the store again, keep it in the UI.

Originally Posted by Dotlbeme

Could have been epic, that Sithric was promoting gawdy apparel rather than getting supplies the fort actually needed!

Sithric: Why are you wasting time with supply gathering when this outpost is severely lacking in uniformity? The uniform code of these troops MUST be enforced. You WILL allocate all available resources for outfitting the men in the appropriate apparel, no exceptions!

Stanric: But there is no food! We had to slaughter half the horses just to feed the dogs.

Sithric: Unless the troops maintain proper discipline they will not eat. All must visit the supply tent for proper uniforms. They are supplied here at great cost so everyone's pay WILL be garnished. Our great ally Sauruman has gone to great expense to supply us with clothing materials. It is the least we can do to offset the costs.

Stanric: I agree we need discipline, but do you think this is the best way?

Sithric: Of course. Each of these 4 apparel dummies is wearing the only acceptable uniforms: for Sentry, Scouting, Laboring, or Administration. Note the fine tunic I am wearing, only 295 IP (Isengard Points).

The endless, shameless BUY NOW AT THE LOTRO STORE loading screens, incredibly annoying deed completion popups, configurable in-game menu bar button, and even a bindable hotkey weren't enough? You needed an actual in-character clicky object in the game world to get people right to the store (one that discourages individual creativity with outfits--one of the best things about LOTRO--to boot)?

What a WASTE of developer resources.

A blatant marketing ploy (which, as implemented, feels very disconnected from the game world) like this gets the developers' time and is implemented into the game when there are so many gameplay issues that still need to be addressed (and probably never will be).

To be honest, I'm not even really surprised by this because I have come to expect this kind of trash from Turbine. Truly pathetic.

Just adding my two cents. These are horrid. Not sure who suggested it, but I think whoever reads the suggestions forums for Turbine/WB needs to seriously consider a reading comprehension class.. or 5. This is the last straw for me. I've already bought my next 'MMO Home'. When it's out, I'm gone. No more money from me, Turbine. Profit, yes. Greed, no.

It's a shame. I've been waiting all this time for Rohan, too. 5 years... but I'm sick of the store being shoved down my throat. Reminding me it's there constantly(The Turbine Store), IS NOT GOING TO MAKE ME SPEND MORE, instead it's going to make me regret logging in.

Bugs are rampant, and again, you update the store. Terrible use of resources, in my opinion. Just my opinion.

*tosses two coppers in the hat*

For Turbine Employee's : Me NO like this. (Just in case)

Terrible!

I pretty much agree with what on earth are they doing there. Some effort could have been put into them for what others have said into places that actually make sense. In shops that are relevant to it and things. If they have to be elsewhere in the game world at least make them fit in or put a someone who is travelling around with a caravan selling exotic clothes or something. It would at least make it better, not fix it but make it more bearable.

If things are going to placed in the environment for the store it needs to look natural and not out of place.

The sparkles are not helping things either. It's obnoxious and annoying.

i. "Dummy" is proper term meaning "figure representing a person" -- there's nothing un-PC about it -- but it's a relatively modern term and not exactly lore appropriate. But we already have "Training Dummies" in game anyway, so that's water under the bridge...

ii. I actually think it's fine to have some form of in-game avenue to promote store cosmetics -- there really isn't a lot of difference between buying outfits from the store or from NPC vendors, and honestly I wouldn't mind some of the store horses showing up at Hengstacer's Farm or various stables the same way -- but I also agree that this "Apparel Dummies" implementation is quite jarring and tacky. They should be placed in locations that make sense, e.g. beside Outfitter NPCs or armour vendors, or implemented in a more natural and integrated way as wandering NPCs who inform players of the sources of their outfits when players interact with them, just like the Explorer of Eregion NPCs that are everywhere, so they at least look like part of the landscape as travellers and fellow players without all those sparkles.

And here we are at 5 pages (and counting) of pretty much 100% disapproval and nary a blue name to be seen.
I think I will start a little book on Snowbourn and see how many pages we get to before a bluey responses.
I may even give a prize for the winner! (Perhaps something nice nice from the store, maybe) *hides*.

Originally Posted by Belechael

I'm speechless... and some people have the nerve to support this... this atrocity!

If I wrote my actual feelings about this "idea" and its implementation I would probably get banned, so I will just leave some more civil co players elaborate on this latest lore breaking fiasco.

Everyone has the right to there opinion whether you like it or not.

/begin sarcasm

Cheap and ugly Apparel Dummies in most major towns? C'mon Turbine, I can't believe you limited yourself in that way. What you should have done was assign each player a non-dismissable "salesperson" pet who will run around Middle Earth behind each and every one of us, randomly modeling its available outfits, thereby making it that much easier for our feeble, childlike minds to access the store and buy stuff. I mean, if I'm running around the Midgewater Marshes killing neeker-breekers I couldn't possibly run all the way back to Bree to buy a spiffy new outfit. What if I get distracted by something shiny and forget? The little golden coin at the bottom right of my screen is clearly not the best way to acess the store. Obviously. So good job for circumventing that clunky and non-user friendly device.

/end sarcasm


Dear Turbine: the non-dismissable salesperson pet is NOT a player suggestion. Please do not take it as such, no matter how awesome you think it is.

I already registered above that I think this is a fail and I still do - particularly the sparkles. But I do like to play devil's advocate sometimes. I will start with a couple counter arguments (I promise this is not a troll effort, I want to bring these up as honest discussions on this topic):

1. Well, Tolkien never said that there were not any apparel dummies in his books. So it is not necessarily lore-breaking.

2. In a real hub city I could honestly say that something like this might be displayed. It is not uncommon for many civilizations to bring their goods out into the street to sell them on a daily basis. To argue otherwise is just to argue for no point because it is easily seen in all types of civilizations. An easy next step of this is to have the hawker standing next to them yelling at you as you walk past about the days sales events (shudders.... oh the horrors if that happens).

Just adding my voice to those of concern about these dummies... horrid idea and totally out of sync with the entire game lore

Really, Turbine?



Please de-sparkle these soulless travesties, and remove them to more appropriate locations (such as inside a shop or stall). Make versions available for me to buy and place inside my own house, so I can dress them up and have my own soulless pets...er, nifty display mannequins.

Lorien is not Macy's display window.

Originally Posted by LaetBlumer_EU

I've just come back from Galtrev where a group of players were playing with these dummies and it gave me an idea. Why not add deeds like "Player laughs out loud at Apparel Dummy" or "Player shakes his head 'no' to Apparel Dummy", say 300 times? Some of us would be well on our way to completing them already.

Hmm wonder if you can do "forced emotes" on them? An above post said you can "heave" on them they actually might be useful for those with 10,000 DRAGON effects yet to do.

I don't mind the concept in general, but I think it's extremely poorly implemented. I could probably write an entire page on ways to improve the implementation, but 200 other players seem to have beaten me to it.

If Turbine is so keen to incorporate player suggestions, I suggest the company thoroughly read this thread and take swift action.

I am extremely disappointed.

1. Well, Tolkien never said that there were not any apparel dummies in his books. So it is not necessarily lore-breaking.

Tolkien also never said anything about spaceships - which is why I'm eagerly awaiting USS Enterprise to make a cameo in the next update.

In a real hub city I could honestly say that something like this might be displayed.

Yes, which is why many people are fine with the dummies in say, Bree. However please explain the rationale behind them in Aughaire or Forochel.

In other news, I've been able to travel through time itself to bring you a screenshot from the highly anticipated UI update. Coming soon, for Free!

Originally Posted by algonacy

1. Well, Tolkien never said that there were not any apparel dummies in his books. So it is not necessarily lore-breaking.

Well, Tolkien never said that there would be a Mcdonalds in Middle earth. So its not necessarily lore-breaking.

Originally Posted by raychmo

@Calta - I guess we just have different priorities in what we want to see with the game. I don't need a 100% authentic experience because I'd rather see the game reach the finale instead of abruptly end from insufficient funds.

You are assuming it is an "either/or" situation...either they increase the store presence OR the game shuts down.

Perhaps it's nothing like that. Perhaps it's merely a situation of "with or without the dummies the game is already profitable but putting dummies in the world will make the profit go from 22.5% to 23% profits". It may look good in the ledgers but in-game is that .5% increased profit really worth the degredation in game quality?

I was feeling pretty neutral about these dummies UNTIL

I zoned into the human phased starting archet and right there next to the armor vendors were 4 apparel dummies. That is just disgusting. Hit newbies before they even get a chance to really play!

I am talking the level 1 Archet here.

Sorry for the people who read my post a second ago, that was for a different thread :P. I think dummies are a stupid idea, and Turgrinds obviously trying to milk the cash cow till its last drop before people leave.

In a shop, next to an outfitter, in lower level towns where folks might first be thinking about outfits, ok. Fine.

Out and about in every "hub" that has a stable, no. *head shakes*

There have been a mounting number of reasons why I (a founder and lifer) have not bought the next expansion yet. All of them are small and not game breaking, like the outfit dummies. However, when added up, the trend is that I see a company more focused on getting micro-transactions than in actually producing a quality game for people to enjoy playing.

This may be the thing that pushes me to not purchase the expansion. It's just too "in your faces" when there are so many other things that have been broken/abandoned for years.

What's next? Removing all swift travel and putting billboards in along the purchased travel routes? Honestly, we KNOW how to access the Turbine Store. One can't get out of the intro tutorial without learning about the Turbine Store. We get reminders with every stinking deed update, rep level, or when we've maxed out our tasks for the day. The buttons are at the vendors everywhere.

Just stop with the Turbine Store reminders. Please. Amazon.com and Newegg.com combined send out fewer marketing hooks than the Turbine Store.

I've been playing this game since beta, have two lifetime accounts, and have spent hundreds more on the LOTRO store, not to mention the various expansions I have bought. And I defend Turbine 99% of the time. Really. I'm one of THOSE people who tries to defend Turbine no matter how stupid the decisions they make look.

But this is that 1% of the time. This is a really annoying change. If they remove the sparkles and put them inside I may be able to tolerate them. But these heinous sparkling monstrosities in every city need to go. There is no decent excuse for it. The small uptick in sales of a few items aren't worth the annoyance it causes the entire playerbase. I know Turbine will just make excuses, wait for us to stop complaining and then not deal with this, but I wish they would. I'm sick of defending this kind of thing, it's ridiculous. I have bought so many cosmetics from the store, my wardrobe is completely maxed. I'm the kind of customer Turbine is supposed to be appealing to here, and I hate this.

Aside from what I've already complained about, I have another complaint as someone who DOES purchase cosmetic clothing and as an entire alt dedicated to storing it. The item sets on these dummies do not tell you the individual pieces. Looking at them, I can tell that I own about half of the items already on the dummies. I noticed the dwarf's chestpiece, and wanted to see how much it was individually since I already own the other parts. I can't. In fact, I couldn't find it anywhere on the LOTRO store. I sure as hell am not rebuying pieces I already own, so instead I spent no money at all. This UI is half-assed and will not translate to higher sales if Turbine cannot bother to make it even slightly user-friendly.

As a result of this, I will not be buying any more clothing from the LOTRO store. I have given a total of around $1000 to Turbine since 2007 on this game. It's not going to be happening anymore if this is how the game continues.

Originally Posted by algonacy

I already registered above that I think this is a fail and I still do - particularly the sparkles. But I do like to play devil's advocate sometimes. I will start with a couple counter arguments (I promise this is not a troll effort, I want to bring these up as honest discussions on this topic):

1. Well, Tolkien never said that there were not any apparel dummies in his books. So it is not necessarily lore-breaking.

2. In a real hub city I could honestly say that something like this might be displayed. It is not uncommon for many civilizations to bring their goods out into the street to sell them on a daily basis. To argue otherwise is just to argue for no point because it is easily seen in all types of civilizations. An easy next step of this is to have the hawker standing next to them yelling at you as you walk past about the days sales events (shudders.... oh the horrors if that happens).

Not a good argument. Every NPC in Galtrev says 'I have not seen your kind before' (uhh...but there are dummies of your race in naff costumes with sparklies right here!)

And whilst the Moria epic leaves me with not a shred of respect for the NPC dwarfs in-game, I find it a little bit hard to believe they managed to sneak into Caras Galadhon and put those dummies up without some severe repercussions from the elves - including getting rid of the dummies forthwith.

It's tacky. It's not about being VIP, either, they aren't advertising subscriptions. Why Turbine is trying so hard to kill its own game is utterly beyond me.

THIS!

Originally Posted by Teslana

5) Edited to add: While I understand the desire to show clothing on all races, it doesn't work in-game, as the local shopkeepers would be trying to sell to their local audience. Four dummies are too visually intrusive. Reduce the dummies to two - one male, one female - and make them of the local predominant race. As in, Humans in Bree, Hobbits in Michel Delving, Dwarves in Thorin's Hall, etc. Less intrusive and more logically justified with regards to lore.

So, my overall point is that if you want to push store goods in an in-game fashion, then do it the correct way. Integrate them correctly to the game world and design the display as you imagine that store owner would - they wouldn't just sling them on the street like that to be trampled down by every passing horse. And ditch the sparkles - it cannot be justified, and more appreciative attention can be gained from players by making these store-promos appear as genuine in-world clothing store promo items.

I've tried just reading the forums and playing, instead of posting, but I was really moved to comment on this issue. This in-game dummy thing, as currently implemented, is perhaps the 'most worstest' of ideas anyone has ever implemented in this game, ever. And that's saying a lot! :P

Im sorry - i just cant get that upset about something so trivial (to me) - and things like this just doesnt bother me.

you guys know its a game right? And the developers have to make money or the lights goes off and the doors get barred.

There is soooo much good stuff in this game that I dont disparage turbine for throwing in a few POS here and there - its really no big deal and if you dont like them - ignore them - I know - i know - they are sparkly - and many people get distracted by sparkly things - im one of them - but after the first time or two - it gets easier to ignore.

The Turbine store and F2P is a very successful model and it is here to stay - and I support it because I get to buy what I want and ignore the rest and never feel like im being cheated if i step away for a few weeks or months like I did when our only option was to sub.

I would have thought that by now that some of the ... dislike ... for the store would have died out as most reasonable people know that this is how the game stays open for them to play - but I guess im either wrong or its just a new batch of people who hasn't yet reconciled with this inescapable fact.

So to prepare you - expect more of this - not less.


Hope you all find a way for this to not ruin your fun - because most of the game is pretty balls on.

D