Has there ever been a suggestion specifically for dummies that advertise the store cosmetics? Weren't players asking for dummies for housing so that they could put their own gear and weapons on display?
The time developing these could have actually gone to implementing them for housing instead, making a whole lot of players happy instead of causing yet another controversy.
And how precisely does 'making players happy' turn into Store sales? Think man, think!
Not sure why Turbine doesn't just open up a full-screen store upon login and not allow us to close it and play the game until we purchase something.
LOTRO is starting to remind me of a Facebook game...pretty soon we'll be limited to the amount of time we can play unless we buy "fun-rings" from the store to extend our new "energy" bar.
i think we can rest easy in the knowledge that turbine can't afford to do either of these.
i personally see the new dummies (who seem to represent the marketing department, oh i do hope this isn't the result of economic cutbacks??) as being a desperate measure to bring more attention to the store. after all, if the cosmetics were actually drawing customers in the first place, we wouldn't need yet more advertisement in-game of something we are all very much aware of already.
therefore, i can come to the conclusion that a forced purchase system (and yes, i know you were joking. probably anyway :P) would only lead to more people deciding to vote with their wallets. after all, if you can't persuade people to spend money in a shop willingly, they're not likely to pay at the door just so they can see the insides afterward.
of course, if people aren't persuaded to spend money freely, they're not likely to be persuaded by the facebook-style you describe. after all, there are people who play solely on whatever TP they can gather - if they have to start paying those to play as long as they want, their playtime will find itself significantly reduced. there's nothing in lotro that is addictive enough to compel people to pay for extra playtime, if they can simply play 20 minutes today and 20 minutes tomorrow. only for raids and instances would such a thing find near-universal use, and i know i'd consider it too much effort to pay-to-play.
at this stage, should turbine bring in load screens to advertise while zoning, i don't much care. just don't automatically open the store when we approach the dummies, or any future parts of the new department store shopping, and i'll be able to tolerate it. your game, your rules, and you obviously have targets to meet.
with regard to the OP idea of housing update - not likely. i'd suspect each dummy is individually coded with a particular outfit, so that they're easy to swap around. for housing, there is still too much work to do. even coding for 1 outfit per dummy, there would need to be some kind of check that you own the outfit. that could work if everything was bought from the store, but many people will want to show off their more attractive armours (e.g. the LM robe from helegrod) which will mean needing to check the character setting up the dummy to see if they have earned it. add on that additional coding will be needed to account for every cosmetic armour slot that a character can have, with the possibility to mix and match items, and it's pretty much guaranteed that turbine will not produce it unless they can see a way to make money from it. since fixing bugs isn't particularly profitable, it's cheaper not to bother with it - and less headaches for us players too
Turbine, as a free player who was considering purchasing some VIP time, or quest packs or wahtever...sparkly commercial mannequins in the middle of Middle Earth, out in the open, are NOT going to convince me to spend my money on pixellated clothing. I'd rather be IN GAME and earn it.
Boo to this idea! Booooooo!!! Leave this kind of thing for those Facebook games that end in "-Ville".
They started selling statted armour last winter. Statted end-game armour with the RoR expac.
I heard about the statted armour thing, but didn't check it out in the store myself. I assumed they'd be selling low-level statted armour to satisfy the new players who weren't prepared to utilize the crafting system...not rare end-game drops/quest rewards like Arth-crus. :/
I meant to ask: has anyone checked to see whether these have appeared in housing neighbourhood shop areas, too? Have they just been thrown down *everywhere*? ( I just logged in, stared at them for a moment and came back to make my earlier post, haha - I was trying to remain restrained about it all)
Last edited by Teslana; Jul 09 2012 at 11:50 AM.
Reason: grammar
I haven't logged in yet after the update and now I don't want to and have my world spoiled by these awful immersion breaking dummys.
Although I won't be logging in at all until the expansion launches, I am quite sure these things will be popping up in the major hubs of Rohan as well.
I am hugely dissappointed. It's not the idea of apparel dummies I dislike, that I can take or leave. It's the completely thoughtless, uninspired, lore-breaking, immersion breaking way in which it was implemented.
These could easily have been put in their own hut / specialized area near other armor and equipment vendors. Having them freely out in the questing areas, well, there really aren't any words for it, are there? :/ I die inside each time I see them, and I see them everywhere. The same exact outfits too.
Please Turbine, put them where they belong, away from questing areas and into buildings or tents or areas near similar in-game vendors. Remove the sparklies. Outfit them differently. How about some using some inspiration, like outfits that fit the locale in which they are located?
Good grief I don't think you could have planned a worse, more annoying, more immersion breaking implementation if you'd mapped it out on a white board.
The sarcastic thread in the Suggestions forum has already been locked. I'd give out reputation for it but I don't know how Apparently someone in a suit really think this "dummy" thing is was a great idea. Even if the armor, clothing etc. vendors *themselves* were dressed in the clothing and winked at me, I would probably be amused instead of offended.
And there is a huge difference between implementing a player suggestion correctly and not correctly. Letting players show off their best armor set on a mannequin at their home (which, it seems, WAS the suggestion) would be a productive way to use this new idea, and I would have been really impressed with Turbine's desire to listen to players.
Turning this player-made suggestion into "would you like Turbine fries with that?" or "would you like to put this on your Turbine charge?" is just.....tacky.
Desperate measure? I dunno, but at a certain point I simply decided to stop buying Turbine Points. When the store first happened, I was enthusiastic and in love with more storage, wardrobe, and cosmetics. But, at a certain point, the Relic Removal Scroll specifically, my perception of the game's interaction with the Store changed. I see more and more signs of inconvenience being inserted in the game in order to sell convenience, which is the bread and butter of Asian F2P games. I'm disappointed Turbine chose to go this route. I see the game design continuing to create a gaming environment that I don't enjoy and I'm not going to support it by spending money for TPs. So, the blatant shilling of the Store has simply given me, who used to be a vocal backer, a disgust of it. Putting these absurd dummies everywhere in Middle-Earth (really, on the flet in CG, right in front of the daily quest givers? Really, Turbine?) just confirms my supposition that the real "road-map" for LOTRO is a hostile take-over by the Store.
This kind of nonsense is not going to get me to use the Store for fluff, since I need to buy scrolls and other LI items with my TPs. And it certainly isn't going to get me to buy TPs to spend on fluff.
You are clearly lazy and have no eye for what looks nice. Also, you should publicly apologize prior to fixing this visual disaster.
Thanks,
Eukwen.
"Accept the things to which fate binds you, and love the people with whom fate brings you together, but do so with all your heart." - Marcus Aelius Aurelius
uhmm....i wasn't sure what I was expecting when I clicked on this thread but THIS...THIS was NOT it. a giant...
O M G!!!
is about all I can say. Are you effing serious Turbine? Seriously? Really? THIS....THIS is what you've been spending your work hours on?!@?!?!?! let's not bother fixing the lag. I know the players really want EFFING MANNEQUINS!!! Oh..and not for stuff they ALREADY OWN SO THEY CAN SEE THEM BUT FOR STUFF WE'RE SELLING IN THE THRICE-DA&*ED STORE!!!
hey..while' you're at it turbine why don't you hire 'sign board' guys who stand at every stable hub, crossroads and wherever else people might be with a flashing sign board and funky dance moves and strobe lights showing us the latest store sale!!!!
Is there a point at which you'll ***clowns will stop with pushing the store down our throats?!?!
FIX THE DARN LAG AND KEEP THIS USELESS &&&& OUT OF THE DARN GAME!!!
Oh my god, Oh my god, Oh my god, this is wrong on so many levels!
Turbine, please fix this as soon as you can before you have another huge publicity disaster on your hands. You have just ruined the look, atmosphere and immersion of EVERY major hub in the game, for Eru's sake! You have a new idea to promote the store - fine! But keep them confined to starter areas, move them next to actual Outfitter NPCs and lose the darn sparkles! We don't want to see flashy multi-colored advertisements in Moria, Angmar or Dunland, where it totally ruins the feel of the area.
In short, just do this:
Originally Posted by Teslana
1) They take up too much space. Push them closer together and they'd form a more cohesive display. Also, some better poses would not be amiss - they look drab, just standing there - no display artist in a store would position them this way. Don't be timid - you want to sell those clothes!
2) Rename them 'Shop Display', as this will more accurately describe their function and yet retain the in-game explanation for their existence. No need for subterfuge to make people click on them - those are the reviled tactics of spammers.
3) Lose the sparkles. It is visual noise that has no purpose. The use of magic to enchant them in such a way would be frivolous and require ridiculously high level enchanters to achieve - they break lore by sparkling, which may alienate the Tolkein-loving fans who play the game.
4) They look wrong and awkward just standing on the street. This is not to say they shouldn't be outside - some clothing shops don't have a physical buidling, after all, so they can't all be inside. What you need to do is make them a small bench-like podium with little ribbons and sashes, along with a couple of torches either end to illuminate them after-dark. In short, turn them into a convincing display by the clothing store-owners. As they are, they look as though they've been dumped in a row while some spring-cleaning is done by shopkeepers.
5) Edited to add: While I understand the desire to show clothing on all races, it doesn't work in-game, as the local shopkeepers would be trying to sell to their local audience. Four dummies are too visually intrusive. Reduce the dummies to two - one male, one female - and make them of the local predominant race. As in, Humans in Bree, Hobbits in Michel Delving, Dwarves in Thorin's Hall, etc. Less intrusive and more logically justified with regards to lore.
So, my overall point is that if you want to push store goods in an in-game fashion, then do it the correct way. Integrate them correctly to the game world and design the display as you imagine that store owner would - they wouldn't just sling them on the street like that to be trampled down by every passing horse. And ditch the sparkles - it cannot be justified, and more appreciative attention can be gained from players by making these store-promos appear as genuine in-world clothing store promo items.
This post accurately summed everything that needs to be done to those to make them tolerable and even acceptable. But as of now, this is a serious blow to the game as a whole: for the first time since F2P release we actually have Store advertisements in Middle-Earth itself: not in the UI - but in the actual world! This does not belong in an AAA MMO, only kid-friendly, flashy games like Free Realms have that kind of stuff. For now, new players wanting to try the game will enter the world for the first time and instead of being awed by being in such iconic locations as Hobbiton, Bree or Rivendell they will instead see floating sparkly multi-colored Store ads totally out of place every time they visit a major hub. You think they'll want to buy them immediately? No, they'll want to search for Log Out and Uninstall buttons, because such thing totally ruin the atmosphere and Middle-Earth atmosphere is why most of us are here in the first place.
People can argue and disagree about whether SWTOR was good or bad, or whether it's a great or lame game. But no serious MMO player would ever consider spending their time and money on something like this - and not because that game is technically F2P, but because of how totally un-SW it feels, complete with shop advertisements every 10 meters in the game world and silly costumed displayed everywhere. Are pre-teens your target demographic now or what?
... there is a huge difference between implementing a player suggestion correctly and not correctly. Letting players show off their best armor set on a mannequin at their home (which, it seems, WAS the suggestion) would be a productive way to use this new idea, and I would have been really impressed with Turbine's desire to listen to players.
Back a long time ago, when the store was first announced, I recall suggestions from players that *rather than* having a button to open up a real world type store page, wouldn't it be more fun and fitting to have an in-game store that you walk into where models are used to show the outfits and clicking on them allowed you to purchase them. This *instead of* a real world type store page where you're inundated with special offers, see big loud banner ads, and what not.
I don't know how often this was asked for, nor do I know whether it was a recent request since I don't often follow the Suggestions forum. However, I think Turbine is pushing the limits of our believability when they say players asked for this. Models may have been asked for, but I'd bet all my next paycheck that they didn't ask for it to be implemented in the way that it has been.
Back a long time ago, when the store was first announced, I recall suggestions from players that *rather than* having a button to open up a real world type store page, wouldn't it be more fun and fitting to have an in-game store that you walk into where models are used to show the outfits and clicking on them allowed you to purchase them. This *instead of* a real world type store page where you're inundated with special offers, see big loud banner ads, and what not.
I don't know how often this was asked for, nor do I know whether it was a recent request since I don't often follow the Suggestions forum. However, I think Turbine is pushing the limits of our believability when they say players asked for this. Models may have been asked for, but I'd bet all my next paycheck that they didn't ask for it to be implemented in the way that it has been.
I see. Good points. Though you really didn't have to have been playing long to know this was not a good CEO decision, it's good to know the history behind other issues.
But as of now, this is a serious blow to the game as a whole: for the first time since F2P release we actually have Store advertisements in Middle-Earth itself: not in the UI - but in the actual world! This does not belong in an AAA MMO, only kid-friendly, flashy games like Free Realms have that kind of stuff. For now, new players wanting to try the game will enter the world for the first time and instead of being awed by being in such iconic locations as Hobbiton, Bree or Rivendell they will instead see floating sparkly multi-colored Store ads totally out of place every time they visit a major hub. You think they'll want to buy them immediately? No, they'll want to search for Log Out and Uninstall buttons, because such thing totally ruin the atmosphere and Middle-Earth atmosphere is why most of us are here in the first place.
This. Store ads IN Middle Earth? There's something wrong with that, especially in this way that it was implemented. Please fix it!
I haven't logged in yet since the patch, but I think I'm probably on board-ish with most posters here.
I think mannequins for store items is a good idea. I don't ever buy cosmetics from the store because I don't know of an easy way to see what they'll look like on my character unless I buy them. I also think pushing cosmetics, including store-exclusive ones, is a legitimate part of the F2P model so I really have no problem there, either.
But the sparklies? And the awkward positioning in silly places? C'mon. Put them in interior locations if possible, and get rid of them in really stupid places like Aughaire.
Next, please add a store-mount test drive at Hengstacer, but don't make the test drive horses all sparkly, eh?
I am so incredibly disgusted by this shameful naked advertising by Turbine that I'm gonna have to write a list about the things that I think went wrong with this:
- Dummies are placed badly, into locations with nothing to do with clothing in many cases. (Why would there be clothing adverts in places where there isn't a single clothing store anywhere nearby?)
- They're also placed into very bad positions in many places, such as the middle hill with Relic & Forge-Masters and what not in Galtrev. (One cannot miss them. I walk past and feel raaage!)
- They're pretty much everywhere (I feel their presence very intrusive, and there's much one can say about the feelings intrusive advertising wakes in a person).
- The clothing is not unique, new, or inspirational in any sense. They're quite plain and normal. (Why would one advertise something like that in the first place..)
- Many of the clothing items I saw on the mannequins were items that we're actually acquirable ingame throught gameplay, and quite easily in many cases? (Did I see a dyed set of CRAFTED armor there '-.-?).
- The clothing is the same everywhere, they do not follow a theme and just often don't fit in the area where they're at at all.
So, if I had to give feedback to improve this:
- Move the dummies. Place them into logical places, conveniently out of the way but still discoverable by someone who is running their errands in the area. Special focus on placing them near clothing vendors.
- Reduce their numbers, we do not need them everywhere, really. You could improve the tactfulness of your advertising by quiiiite a bit.
- Work with the clothing, remove sillyness like crafted armor from there. I don't think there's many who'd spend TP to get clothing you can get from the AH with some hundred silver coins, or have a kinnie craft in 10 minutes. Make the outfits worthy of being sold in the store, not a base attempt to ripoff players, please.
- Apply themes to the outfits. Make mannequins in the Shire sell shire-themed clothes (new, and unique please ), while Thorin's Hall would have dwarf theme, Rivendell with elven themes...you get the picture. Would also help in keeping the fabled immersion intact when the things would match their areas.
Horrible idea poorly implemented, it seems obvious that there are simply no restrictions to preserve any immersion in the game anymore. Although the silver lining for me is that at the rate we're going it would appear this game won't resemble anything Tolkien and it will be easier for me to stop playing my lifetime accounts...
Appropriate places like Dolven-View and Caras Galadhon. I just have to LOL at this. Of all the player suggestions you choose to work on something like this? I saw multiple people in this thread alone suggesting cloth dummies for our houses we could put our armor sets on display, how about making that instead of this silly store advertisement?
I'll try to put this as nice and simple as possible:
You're breaking middle earth here, with these weird puppets standing around. This looks horrible and turns this game into the average been-there-before-seen-it-all random fantasy world.
Bree, Shire and Ered Luin, these puppets make sense there and only *there*
Last edited by Zombielord; Jul 10 2012 at 07:58 AM.
Reason: Bit too spicy ..
This thread should really be bumped constantly and kept at top of the General Disscussion page so that developers can notice it and do something about it asap, there are enough nice suggestions already here.
I think mannequins for store items is a good idea. I don't ever buy cosmetics from the store because I don't know of an easy way to see what they'll look like on my character unless I buy them. I also think pushing cosmetics, including store-exclusive ones, is a legitimate part of the F2P model so I really have no problem
Isn't there a "Try This On" button in the store for cosmetics? I seem to remember doing it a few times.
Why not go ahead and implement a TP button on quests to instantly complete quests, since were going that direction. Let's see, 25 TP to instantly complete one quest, and lets say 100 TP to instantly complete an entire chain. oh and please put on the store barebone 75's so i can just purchase my favorite class... oh wait, i mean 85's I don't want to waste my time playing the game, when I should be browsing the Turbine Store.
My client is currently patching, I really don't want to log in and see all the new DUMMY's Could I pay to have these items disappear from my Middle Earth experience? I know how to click that enormous turbine store button on my bar... thanks anyway.
These REALLLY spoiled the atmosphere of some areas. Really in the middle of Aughaire is a department store?!
I like how they said in major hub cities, no... they are everywhere. I Wouldn't be suprised to find a LOTRO Chain Store in the middle of the Trollshaws now, next to the Turbine 7-11 quick snack bar.
At Least put them in the outfitters or even next to armor vendors etc. <Crying a little inside now>
Oh and the little glowing stars floating around the dummies. They Just need some flashing Neon signs to go with them.
Turbine/wb no longer cares about the lag, hitching and other problems, they were written off. their store is their main concern now. Make the store look good first, everything else second.
When the player base starts cancelling their subs, and locking their money away from the store, Turbine will fix the problems. But until that, they will continue to push their store and broken product as hard as they can.
My Armor is Contempt, My Shield is Disgust, My Sword is Hatred
In the Emperor's Name, let None Survive!
Let me say this, instead of complaining, i will vote with my wallet. From now on i will not spend any cent on this game anymore.
I am a lifer, so i really do not have to spend money, but until now i allways bought expansions because i wanted to keep this game alive. From now on i just save my TP's and buy the expansions with that.
Isn't there a "Try This On" button in the store for cosmetics? I seem to remember doing it a few times.
Yes there is for most things, of course, but here if you click on the dummy to get to the store it does NOT allow you to try it on. You might wonder why you'd need to if it is on the dummy but the outfit you're interested in might not be on the dummy that is the same race as you. Outfits look very different on different races, quite dramatically so, so if you are interested in purchasing the dragonfly outfit for a hobbit , for example, you still won't get a true impression.
Like countless others posting above I wouldn't mind seeing this idea in context at an outfitter vendor in the major racial hubs. I wouldn't even mind seeing them in the stores of housing instances. As it stands they look more like they're mounting some kind of invasion in a spooky sinister way.
i saw the first pics posted as I was waiting for the patch to load. They were the Bree ones-I thought in game ads sigh-but they are not too bad located there, except for the sparkles. Then I logged in and went to Galtrev-it's so wrong wrong wrong!!!!! Oh I thought, the sparkles are much worse here because the place is poor and brown and they stick out like the proverbial dog's whatsits. Why not in the crafting hall? Where they'd logically be-next to the NPCs who make them.
Then I checked Stangard- so inappropriate in a besieged military camp where the quest line shows occupants are half starved and/or criminals. Only Eru knows what the Angmar ones are like- I don't dare look... and as for the Elven ones? Yeah, right! the elves would just love poxy clothes display that fluoresce in their flets!
Basically this is lazy generic badly implemented kid MMO stuff that I play LOTRO to avoid. Is this what your new hirees have been working on? Got your new staff from a 'my little pony' MMO, did you? I don't usually rage at this stuff. I joined as FTP. I now have a yearly sub and all expansions. I'd just persuaded myself I could afford the money and risk on RoR because I'm having fun with the quest lines again in the Brown Lands and Great River and learning to raid etc... I understand the economics of a store in a game when people can play for nothing, but this feels like you are trying to drive us away to better and newer MMOs because what makes this game different/better is the community, setting and the story. And nowhere in Middle Earth are disco lit fancy dress outfitters mentioned. And the community-ie the long term payers of bulk cash-is going to howl and whine and rage and froth for weeks if this intrusive aesthetically revolting virtual mall type stuff keeps up.
Sapience I like your patience humour and your obvious love of the game-you must be die-ing inside every time you have to defend this excrement. Or you've died inside already and given up caring except for the pay check and more aeroplanes- I hope not.
I've repped all the positive suggestions below. I'm too upset to even think of any at the moment.
I can summarize my feelings towards this invention roughly like this:
I would rather see Turbine bomb the hell out of my mailbox with "cheap Rolex watches", Viagra discounts or &&&&& enlargement programs rather than these dumb figurines if they really need more money.
Many philosophical problems are caused by such things as the simple inability to shut up.
i personally see the new dummies (who seem to represent the marketing department, oh i do hope this isn't the result of economic cutbacks??) as being a desperate measure to bring more attention to the store.
Yup. It's advertising. You will learn presently to let your eye slide over it without its ever registering on your brain. Just like all advertising.
Personally ... I'm not in the market for ANY cosmetic clothing right now. The Grey Company have honoured me by giving me their garb to wear, and that's what I'm going to wear till Sauron falls.
After that, well, if I'm invited to the coronation, I may look in the Store and see if there's anything I like in the way of court dress. That will be, hm, a few months from now in-game, several years our time. Maybe during that time the artists will come up with something I'd look good in.
apparel dummies didnt we already have them and arent they called players? Just kidding but really i do not understand the purpose, i for one would have preferred them to spend the developement time bug zapping. I know sound related issues are currently the rage and perhaps some of them are fixed but I still know people that ccrash out of RoI instances if they have sound on. Fix bugs before cosmetic frippery is my cry.
Isn't there a "Try This On" button in the store for cosmetics? I seem to remember doing it a few times.
There may be, yeah. I just don't really find the actual store interface very convenient for doing cosmetics-shopping, even if you can try things on. In that regard a mannequin that lets you conveniently try things on in-game so you can choose what you want before going to the clunky store interface is a great idea. Unfortunately, Catburg's post above makes it sound like you can't even use these things to actually try stuff on, which is a complete shame.
I am, perhaps surprisingly, not against the idea of the cosmetic dummies that have just invaded the game - a profit is needed to keep the game going, after all. However, here are a few things about them that I'd like to suggest to the devs, as these dummies are clearly (and quite rightly) causing a bit of controversy:
1) They take up too much space. Push them closer together and they'd form a more cohesive display. Also, some better poses would not be amiss - they look drab, just standing there - no display artist in a store would position them this way. Don't be timid - you want to sell those clothes!
2) Rename them 'Shop Display', as this will more accurately describe their function and yet retain the in-game explanation for their existence. No need for subterfuge to make people click on them - those are the reviled tactics of spammers.
3) Lose the sparkles. It is visual noise that has no purpose. The use of magic to enchant them in such a way would be frivolous and require ridiculously high level enchanters to achieve - they break lore by sparkling, which may alienate the Tolkein-loving fans who play the game.
4) They look wrong and awkward just standing on the street. This is not to say they shouldn't be outside - some clothing shops don't have a physical buidling, after all, so they can't all be inside. What you need to do is make them a small bench-like podium with little ribbons and sashes, along with a couple of torches either end to illuminate them after-dark. In short, turn them into a convincing display by the clothing store-owners. As they are, they look as though they've been dumped in a row while some spring-cleaning is done by shopkeepers.
5) Edited to add: While I understand the desire to show clothing on all races, it doesn't work in-game, as the local shopkeepers would be trying to sell to their local audience. Four dummies are too visually intrusive. Reduce the dummies to two - one male, one female - and make them of the local predominant race. As in, Humans in Bree, Hobbits in Michel Delving, Dwarves in Thorin's Hall, etc. Less intrusive and more logically justified with regards to lore.
So, my overall point is that if you want to push store goods in an in-game fashion, then do it the correct way. Integrate them correctly to the game world and design the display as you imagine that store owner would - they wouldn't just sling them on the street like that to be trampled down by every passing horse. And ditch the sparkles - it cannot be justified, and more appreciative attention can be gained from players by making these store-promos appear as genuine in-world clothing store promo items.
Thanks for reading this!
Best post of the thread.
I haven't had a chance to log in yet and see these, but from the screenshots I've seen, these are going to grate on my nerves for a bit. I would definitely recommend the re-placement of the apparel dummies near apparel vendors, if they are not already placed there. But of course, they will eventually fade into the background for me anyway, just like any other unused object. (I have too many other things to spend TP on to mess with cosmetics )
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And how precisely does 'making players happy' turn into Store sales? Think man, think!
Originally Posted by MoonwalkIntoMordor
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