Add me to the list of people who no longer trust Turbine to maintain the game. As mentioned at length above, the basic *idea* behind these dummies isn't totally terrible, but the execution was. This lack of attention to even the most basic of details, coupled with a failure to address long standing and persistent problems in-game leads me to conclude that Turbine is no longer focusing on the player experience, let alone maintaining the lore and beauty of Middle Earth.
Until I get convinced otherwise, I'm not spending another cent on the game. If I happen to scrounge together the thousands of TPs I'll surely need for RoR, maybe I'll get it. Maybe. But I'm not spending real money on this game anymore unless Turbine returns their focus to where it should be - the players and the game.
From the thread regarding the change to the RoR packs after feedback on the forums regarding its pricing:
Originally Posted by Sapience
Thanks to everyone for your candid feedback about the pre-purchase offers and the Rohan expansion. At Turbine we have always made it a point to listen closely to our players and adjust when necessary to provide the best possible entertainment experience.
Please tell me this is true here also. Are you listening closely? Can we get an "adjust" on this too please?
There's something here I'd like to point out. When talking about cash shops taking over games, people here always warn of the game becoming one of those "F2P Asian grind" games. I play two regularly (Dungeon Fighter Online and Perfect World) and have dabbled in many others, and in NONE of those games that I have played is the cash shop more apparent or in your face than it is here.
Interesting. I'll check em out. I'm also waiting for GW2 now. Or I might go back to RIFT.
The ONLY Facebook game I play is Farm Town (developed by Slashkey, and actually was the original "Facebook Farming game" before the -Ville developer took the idea and made a reeking cash cow out of it), for the same reasons...simply because of the phenomenal development team. It seriously is the most customer oriented development team I have EVER seen. There are NO advertisements in game AT ALL. There is no begging involved, and as soon as things are requested or a major game breaking bug is repoted by the forum community, it is FIXED. I am waiting to see if they offer stock, and I'm willing to take Slashkey stock out if they ever offer it.
THAT'S how good that dev team is, and THAT is where I'll put my money.
Okay, last comment on the Apparel Dummies Scandal. I play a lot of F2P games. Every cutesy Anime title gets at least 15 hours of my time. And I have never, ever, ever seen anything as tacky and crass as these apparel dummies in any cheap F2P of the month I've played. Asian devs have more style, wit, and marketing sense in even their most egregious Pay-to-Win titles than Turbine has shown with this thoughtless, careless design and implementation.
It bears repeating what Fernando Paiz (husband of LOTRO chief, Katherine Paiz) has said about game forums: People come to the forums and complain, but we can just ignore them because they buy stuff anyway. That's you he's talking about.
So, don't think anything we say here will convince them they blew it with the dummies. It won't.
I think the concept of an organic integration of the store into the game is decent enough. Had that been part of the planning from day one, the design choices might have been different. I have no problem with creating organic, alive, vibrant feeling vistas, or cities, towns, villages and hovels that have a sense of realism, etc. I also think a player store could be designed in a way that actually added beauty to the over all design and feel of the game. However, Shadows of Angmar, Mines of Moria, & Mirkwood (with all their sub regions) were developed under a subscription model. Enedwaith and all that came after, developed with a FTP model and store. All this time, and the store interface was part of the UI and not designed into the world. This is a first attempt. IMO it is a very poor first attempt.
I'll echo the majority in saying it feels crass & is lacking class.
I think this really does require a redo, if it is intended to be a part of the game in the future. Certainly there will be some who this doesn't phase, but I think the majority are feeling a big disconnect on this. I know I am.
So as far as open air, in view of the general player base, I think Waymoot in the shire is prime for an open air bizzare/market that could be 'DESIGNED' with a dwarf, human & several hobbit vendors, promoting multiple cosmetic options that one would expect to find in the world at that point.
Dullond, Thorins hall, Michel Delving & Bree would be prime spots to put new interior markets. Make the effort to 'DESIGN' spaces that are at least as good as the craft guild halls found in Esteldin, Thorins hall, Michel Delving & Rivendell. Just let them have that feel of an outfitter/tailor.
I think Esteldin could have a small scale open air bizarre/market. A new interior in Rivendell in the buildings of the market there could also work. A burned out store in Trestlebridge would be very fitting, in a hilarious, but unfortunate way. A new interior at Gondomon could also add to that place; the same could be said for Ost Forod. Suri Kyla in Forochel, either a new igloo, or existing igloo converted to an interior market/bizarre, or all the unused doorways off the main uber igloo. Here I think you could go a tad nuts frankly. All the current Lossoth cloaks, their ceremonial armor... even new items should this game ever do believable white fur lined items (I suspect a big demand there.)
That would be all that I would ask be added. Lothlorien, Mirkwood, and anywere in Moria... Not really appropriate. As for the wildspaces & wild-men of Enedwaith & Dunland... I'd say no, unless there is a current design for wild-men apparel for player characters (nothing currently exists.) I also don't see the need, but I am not closed to the option. Just design a stall that would look like it is made by the locals and have it fit organically into the world.
Give the design the love & effort it needs to feel like it is part of the world. I would have no problems with an increased integration of the store with the game, if the effort & care was spent to make it feel as though it was truly a part of the world.
As it now stands, my opinion is this is a cheap effort; it does feel very crass to me. I am not rage quitting or anything as ridiculous as that. However, it is adding to my overall disconnected feelings about the game. For the record, I only spend on a game I feel connected to.
These new store dummies, have me feeling lackluster for what is in the pipeline of future game content. Even if they actually do generate enough money to justify their addition, what is to be expected down the road? Will they fund a better Edoras, or Minis Tirith? Or will they be the justification for more of the same?
I really hope these are re-worked with more care, or just removed entirely if that effort isn't going to be spent. Come August 28, I am going to be easily pulled away by a place that does integrate the store into the world brilliantly. It shouldn't have to be a shame, that I can't currently say, the same can be said here.
This is probably evident from my original post in this thread but I am stating for the record, so any Turbine/WB employees who may be reading this thread thoroughly can clearly see:
I am a long-time player but I will NOT buy the RoR expansion (the first expansion I will not be purchasing) or spend another dime on TP until the dummies are either removed from the game entirely or their implementation is completely changed as has been suggested throughout this thread (for example, moved to an indoor, out of the way, in-character shop location with proper race models depending on the area....I am against the dummies entirely but I would be, at the very least, placated by this type of change to them).
While I have made occasional TP purchases, I am a lifetime VIP account holder so I doubt this will make much of a splash, but it's a drop in the bucket at the least (although I'm sure Turbine is happy to let the bucket overflow as long as the cash continues to do the same).
Last edited by whiteheat502; Jul 10 2012 at 01:28 PM.
Valahn =Wolves=
Feast like a sultan, I do
On treasures and flesh never few.
I think the concept of an organic integration of the store into the game is decent enough....
So as far as open air, in view of the general player base, I think Waymoot in the shire is prime for an open air bizzare/market that could be 'DESIGNED'...
Dullond, Thorins hall, Michel Delving & Bree would be prime spots to put new interior markets. Make the effort to 'DESIGN' spaces that are at least as good as the craft guild halls found in Esteldin, Thorins hall, Michel Delving & Rivendell. Just let them have that feel of an outfitter/tailor...
Just an addendum to the above. Give the design the effort it deserves. You could also have a dye vendor in these spaces/places. I am sure if enough though was given, the cosmetic slot option and all that entails our player characters fashion sense in the world could be better integrated into the game to give us a better experience.
As it stands now... IMO, not good enough. Not worthy of this game.
There is no place in Middle Earth that one might expect to see such things! Tolkien surely would roll over in his grave if he saw these blatant marketing ploys.
There is no place in Middle Earth that one might expect to see such things! Tolkien surely would roll over in his grave if he saw these blatant marketing ploys.
Tolkien would roll over in his grave about the movies, let alone an entire video game making money off of his work. Let's stop pretending that this an affront to Tolkien. The whole LOTR cottage industry would offend him.
Let the poor guy rest.
You don't like the dummies, say so and say why. No need to summon Tolkien like a Pokemon every time an idea doesn't suit you...
I am also a long time player of the game. The Apparel Dummies do not bother me at all. Other than being a fan of Tolkien for the last 39 years the cosmetic system in LOTRO is one of the main reasons I enjoy playing the game. But then again before the cosmetic system was implemented I did spend 8 gold on a pair of leggings with exactly the same stats as the ones I was wearing (level 50 crit crafted leggings at the time) just because I liked the way they looked on my hunter. I still have them in my wardrobe. Advertising something that sets the game apart is fine by me.
Elendilmir - Officer of the Mithril Crowns (The Oldest Kinship in LOTRO)
"It doesn't matter how well you play, only how good you look while playing."
It was a 'player suggestion' that caused these stupid dummies so I think players should make 'player suggestions' to have them removed. I will also suggest that future 'player suggestions' should be somewhere on the board where we can see that it was actually suggested, and not a possible lie as to the reason for new implementation for money gr...of ideas that aren't well thought out.
There is no place in Middle Earth that one might expect to see such things! Tolkien surely would roll over in his grave if he saw these blatant marketing ploys.
One may even say and agree, with a hint of sadness, Christopher Tolkien's point in never letting anything else be created from his father's material.
I think now, at last, I understand you CT.
Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar, tenn’ Ambar-metta!
You see, if someone starts a thread saying "let the creeps out of the moors!" or "can we have flying mounts?", there will be a certain group of players who immediately will jump the OP with the excuse that is lore breaking and it breaks the immersion and bla bla bla. Which is often true.
But what about this now? What's next?
Maybe:
Bah...
I like it, Ric.
Although I can't believe that you think that the LOTRO Store button wouldn't be the biggest - or perhaps every billboard would be the LOTRO Store button.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
One may even say and agree, with a hint of sadness, Christopher Tolkien's point in never letting anything else be created from his father's material.
I think now, at last, I understand you CT.
Agree with that. It may be "legal" for Turbine to make crass additions to LOTRO but it doesn't make them right.
Unfortunately, in a short time, this controversy will most likely be like the forum tempest over the red corners on newly acquired inventory items: a tempest in a tea pot quickly here then just as quickly gone.
This is extremely disappointing, I gave up thinking they're going to improve PvMP thinking they have other features in development. But to find that they were working on some dummy to promote the store even more is ridiculous.
Customer Service Guy: “Well, we've really stepped into it this time with the over the top marketing. The players are in an uproar.”
Random Boss: (Paraphrased) “Oh, don't worry about those folks on the forum. What do we care what they say, they'll still buy our stuff anyway.”
Random Dev: “Uh, sir, they're on to that, and they've seen the video of you saying something along those lines. They're not amused, and they're not stupid.”
Random Boss: “Hmm, you may be right. Well, what can we do about this. Any ideas, anyone?”
Random Dev: “I know! We'll develop this into the cosmetic housing item to display their armour that everyone has been asking for for years, and we've been insisting wasn't possible all this time, and say this was a 'test run, and a 'step in that direction'. That'll get most of the folks off of our back, and give them something to look forward to. In the meantime, we'll remove the sparkles. After all, we only added them so that when the people complained, as we KNEW they would, we would have something to compromise on and make us look like we're willing to meet the players in the middle.”
Random Boss: “That sounds great. That'll quiet down the majority and make it look like we intended this cosmetic armor thing all along. Good job, Sparky! Make it so.”
I am thus far fully convinced that the sparkles are only there to have something to compromise on. No one designs anything that inane.
Last edited by Kaynith; Jul 10 2012 at 02:03 PM.
Reason: Fixed Formatting (Darn your double spacing, Open Office!)
Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar, tenn’ Ambar-metta!
Okay, last comment on the Apparel Dummies Scandal. I play a lot of F2P games. Every cutesy Anime title gets at least 15 hours of my time. And I have never, ever, ever seen anything as tacky and crass as these apparel dummies in any cheap F2P of the month I've played. Asian devs have more style, wit, and marketing sense in even their most egregious Pay-to-Win titles than Turbine has shown with this thoughtless, careless design and implementation.
It bears repeating what Fernando Paiz (husband of LOTRO chief, Katherine Paiz) has said about game forums: People come to the forums and complain, but we can just ignore them because they buy stuff anyway. That's you he's talking about.
So, don't think anything we say here will convince them they blew it with the dummies. It won't.
Thanks for the name, I will add it to my files.
You keep every scrap of paper at crosses your desk. Never throw anything away. Because someday the paper pusher will come after you and you will have to defend yourself.
You keep meticulous records of who, what, where, when, why and how.
Save everything. That way, when they come after you, you'll blow 'em out of the water by sheer weight of evidence.
My Armor is Contempt, My Shield is Disgust, My Sword is Hatred
In the Emperor's Name, let None Survive!
Customer Service Guy: “Well, we've really stepped into it this time with the over the top marketing. The players are in an uproar.”
Random Boss: (Paraphrased) “Oh, don't worry about those folks on the forum. What do we care what they say, they'll still buy our stuff anyway.”
Random Dev: “Uh, sir, they're on to that, and they've seen the video of you saying something along those lines. They're not amused, and they're not stupid.”
Random Boss: “Hmm, you may be right. Well, what can we do about this. Any ideas, anyone?”
Random Dev: “I know! We'll develop this into the cosmetic housing item to display their armour that everyone has been asking for for years, and we've been insisting wasn't possible all this time, and say this was a 'test run, and a 'step in that direction'. That'll get most of the folks off of our back, and give them something to look forward to. In the meantime, we'll remove the sparkles. After all, we only added them so that when the people complained, as we KNEW they would, we would have something to compromise on and make us look like we're willing to meet the players in the middle.”
Random Boss: “That sounds great. That'll quiet down the majority and make it look like we intended this cosmetic armor thing all along. Good job, Sparky! Make it so.”
I am thus far fully convinced that the sparkles are only there to have something to compromise on. No one designs anything that inane.
I think they'd like to keep the sparkles, but you're right in that it is the sparkles that they'll compromise on if anything. Might remove them from more obscure locations. I'm guessing that's about it.
Tolkien would roll over in his grave about the movies, let alone an entire video game making money off of his work. Let's stop pretending that this an affront to Tolkien. The whole LOTR cottage industry would offend him.
I'm not sure if Tolkien would be upset about movies or other things making money from his work, since he personally sold the film and merchandise rights to United Artists in 1968. However, he was concerned with the quality of things that were to be based on it, and he was very critical of the movie scripts that were created while he was still alive.
He probably could never have imagined a game like LotRO, so who knows what he would think about that. He actually did intend to inspire works in other mediums based in his world, though. According to Wikipedia, "In a 1951 letter to Milton Waldman, Tolkien wrote about his intentions to create a 'body of more or less connected legend', of which '[t]he cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama'."
If video games existed in 1951, maybe he would have included that along with paint, music and drama, but even at the time of his death in 1973, the most advanced video games were something like Pong, so LotRO would be beyond the scope of something he would have considered.
(In any case, I'm guessing he probably wouldn't like the dummies. They don't really bother me that much, but I concur that they are currently poorly placed and implemented.)
Im sorry - i just cant get that upset about something so trivial (to me) - and things like this just doesnt bother me.
Well, awesome. There's this ridiculous theme again. It doesn't bother YOU so, obviously, it's a non-issue. The very fact that a multitude of threads exist that are almost completely on the negative side should tell you differently.
Originally Posted by Dwarendele
you guys know its a game right? And the developers have to make money or the lights goes off and the doors get barred.
And then this ridiculous theme, on top of the other one. Every time the F2P conversion w/ the shop is mentioned officially, they state what a big success it is etc. pp. Yet, some guys around here try to play the "they need the money" card to excuse everything. You even state the success yourself, yet somehow come to the opposite conclusion to defend something that doesn't bother YOU one bit. Again. Awesome.
Originally Posted by Dwarendele
The Turbine store and F2P is a very successful model [...]
Originally Posted by Dwarendele
So to prepare you - expect more of this - not less.
And then this gem. Brilliant!
It might not have been occured to you, but THIS is the very reason the uproar here is totally necessary. Any more of this store-in-your-face nonsense and it might even start to bother YOU. Think about this before you reply, or you might find sooner rather than later that the quote below doesn't hold any longer.
As people have rightly divined. Turbine took the laziest, quickest, least effort approach and did not spend one single second considering whether their paying customers would like it. A handful of meshes, scatter them in every location potential marks gather. Bish bash bosh. A days work. Job done. Integrating them into the game world would have required time and effort and would not have resulted in them being in the face of potential marks at every turn.
This. Very much this.
I was going to write that as well, using most of the same words. Thank you and I completely agree.
It's also a sad trend to have ideas with lots of potential be butchered like that and then thrown at us, often in a buggy or incomplete state (or both) only to left to rot (housing, hobbies, anyone?).
Really, really sad and what some people use to say when the discussion is about that next game that will kill lotro for good? About lotro being the death of itself rather than that next game? Seems to come true. Apparently quicker than one would wish for.
Add me to the list of people who no longer trust Turbine to maintain the game. As mentioned at length above, the basic *idea* behind these dummies isn't totally terrible, but the execution was. This lack of attention to even the most basic of details, coupled with a failure to address long standing and persistent problems in-game leads me to conclude that Turbine is no longer focusing on the player experience, let alone maintaining the lore and beauty of Middle Earth.
Until I get convinced otherwise, I'm not spending another cent on the game. If I happen to scrounge together the thousands of TPs I'll surely need for RoR, maybe I'll get it. Maybe. But I'm not spending real money on this game anymore unless Turbine returns their focus to where it should be - the players and the game.
My thoughts exactly. Haven't pre-ordered RoR and won't be buying any more content with RL money unless Turbine change their approach.
/mock, /fishslap or other /emote on the dummies is my only interaction with them and will continue to be so - and so far, when I have done this in front of other players, their response has been 100% supportive of my actions.
I on the other hand, will never reach 75, as I will now get sucked into making even MORE cosmetic outfits, all day every day. Just remember, this is a service you use probably every.single.day and nothing is ever going to be catered directly to you and your play style. Don't take it for granted and don't lose your cool just because this company is coming up with ways to further their revenue and thus further business and further your game.
If I wanted to play dress up , I think I still have a couple dolls laying around somewhere. I'm playing the game to have fun and kill stuff not make new outfits for my toons.
Tolkien would roll over in his grave about the movies, let alone an entire video game making money off of his work. Let's stop pretending that this an affront to Tolkien. The whole LOTR cottage industry would offend him.
Let the poor guy rest.
You don't like the dummies, say so and say why. No need to summon Tolkien like a Pokemon every time an idea doesn't suit you...
So after your spiel, do you like the dummies, yes? No? Why?
I've stopped playing except to refresh my houses, in case one day the bug bites again. I see this, it gets less likely.
I'm only posting so as to lodge my disgust at something in the game world that takes you into the store, it's not even a menu, it's truly breaking the 4th wall and it's sickening.
I said it was an update. I didn't say it would be better.
If I wanted to play dress up , I think I still have a couple dolls laying around somewhere. I'm playing the game to have fun and kill stuff not make new outfits for my toons.
I used to enjoy the dress up game here, but seriously, useless dummies instead of finally making it possible to wear visible boots etc with the outfits or fixing the stuttering lag issues?? .... as for killing stuff, every single rpg has that except for Harvest Moon and they even branched out to include that in the Rune Factory series so for players like me, it's the little extra things in the world that set some apart from the rest. Too bad the greed factor negates much of what makes LoTRO special. :/
I am so disapointed. Adding apparel dummies to the landscape is just an eyesore to a once beautifully tended, detail oriented atmosphere. I used to love this world.
Dear Turbine, Why do you want me to stop playing LOTRO?
It's just palin dumb and it's like dropping a gigantic steaming &&&& on the works of Tolkien IMO.
Great typo, or greatest typo?
After playing the game a bunch last night, including spending a whole lot of time trying to set up my new burglar's cosmetic look (including 400 TP worth of store-only cosmetics), my opinion on the dummies is stronger than ever.
Why are they wearing such lame outfits? Why are they sparkling? Why are they standing in my favorite "stand around" zone in Galtrev? At least Turbine was kind enough to let me /slap them.
Store cosmetics suck. Don't get me wrong - I *love* the idea of store cosmetics (even store exclusives and maybe even cosmetic versions of rep gear) and there are some really neat pieces there. But there aren't enough of them and, most importantly, shopping for them is clunky and lame. I can travel around Middle-Earth going to armor vendors and outfitters and with a key press and mouse click I can try on anything they've got on offer. Not so in the Store, where you've gotta navigate around like a 1998 version of Amazon to find anything. The dummies are literally worse for buying store cosmetics than just clicking one of the 2453459 store icons.
Not only is the implementation of these dummies ugly and stupid, it's also a giant wasted opportunity. Why aren't the Forochel dummies wearing cool Forochel cosmetics? Why aren't the Galtrev and Lunchtown (Lhanuch for the laymen out there) dummies wearing Dunland cosmetics?
Agree with everyone about moving these to places that make more sense. These detract from the game experience in their current implementation. Plenty of good suggestions here on how to make them less intrusive.
To Turbine: If you want to make more money from the store, this isn't the way to do it. Make content that people will want to purchase. You have plenty of places to advertise this already (including the launcher and at startup) One good example that was posted in one of these threads is more hairstyles. Face paint, tattoos, housing items, more housing customization are some more ideas. I would buy stuff like this and cosmetic clothing if it was something that looked appealing.
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