I d like to view your opinions about DKP system or any other reward system that u would like to have on your kinships..
Personally i have worked only in DKP system and i think this is fair enough by the time that DKP express the efforts of every kin member to the raiding work of a kinship.
''the one that gives should be the one that takes..''
Personally I'm against DKP. That includes DKP, DKP Auction, DKP BA (Blind Auction) as well as zero-sum DKP. The collective problems with all these systems are that they offer no long term sustainability (also known as the DKP gap). I've seen kins where people have been gearing up their 4th or 5th alt while the new player (who also raids) can't get anything becuase he or she don't have enough DKP. Even if you put a cap on it (hard or soft) it's not beneficial to the group as a whole. With that being said DKP is still the most used system in terms of loot distribution and most groups use some sort of DKP based system.
My personal favourite is Trumps. It gives you a fair loot distribution to the entire group instead of a select few. As a new player it does not take long before you can start earning your loot (a lot faster than with ANY DKP system) and at the same time older raiders can still get that elusive piece of loot before anyone else. Not to mention it's VERY light maintainance and it's easy to see where you're at in the tables. Unfortunately this syetm is largely unknown as well which is a shame since it's far superior to DKP. Basically you get a set amount of points for each bosskill (1st kill = 5pts, 2nd kill = 3pts, farm = 1pt), you also get 2pts for staying the entire raid (-1pt for turning up late and -1pt for leaving early). These points add up and gives you a place in the ladder. When a piece of loot drops people with points are allowed to call trumps on it (Calling trumps beat a roll). If two or more player called trumps the person with the highest trump points win. If two or more are on equal trumps they roll off. The person who wins an item with trumps looses all his/her trump points INCLUDING those that he/she'd gain from the current raid. If no one call trumps it goes for the normal Need (mainset) roll and then for the greed (offset) roll.
If you know there's something you know can drop and you really want it when it drops you can save your trump points by not calling trumps until THAT item drops. You'll get less loot that way but you'll be almost guaranteed to get the drop you want. This also ensures that newer players get loot before people start gearing up their 5th alt.
In my opinion these are the best loot distribution systems available in terms of longevity, maintainance, difficulty for new players to get loot, people being rewarded for their effort (and yes, I've used all of them at some point);
1. Trumps
2. SK Ladder
3. SK
4. RA
5. Karma
6. Pyramid
7. LC
8. DKP BA (hard-/softcapped AND uncapped)
9. DKP Auction (hard-/softcapped AND uncapped)
10. DKP (uncapped)
11. ZS DKPS (just annoyingly high maintainance)
I've seen kins where people have been gearing up their 4th or 5th alt while the new player (who also raids) can't get anything becuase he or she don't have enough DKP.
I agree that main characters should have priority if you respect your kin m8s.. ''some rules are unwritten..''
I understand priority only to an alt (tank or healer) who is necessary for the raid activity of the kin..
The single advantage of the old players to get gear fastest is that it permits then to be more effective in raids hence compensating for say a new player first raiding.
DKP with bid works well when there is a relatively fixed raid team. Oldest players bid high prices, use up their DKP and prices lower for newer players. The only setback is that sometimes its to late for casual players say. From the experience of our kin we have had no issue with DKP with bid, at the moment uncapped. It all comes down to the group, our oldest raiders dont usually hog loot and take it from new players ausing their DKP pool.
One idea that has gone around our kin is to reset the DKP for each new raid cluster added. That would mean on every new cluster all get a clean slate. It appears even better is to maintain a percentage of current DKP, say 10-20% to give old raiders the edge to become good geared and do their stuff better (lets face it if your raid leader main tank and main heal is in super gear raid goes faster and better).
have no idea if DKP with reseting DKP at new content has a name. It was first hinted by our founder Bestone and we have yet to adopt it and test it.
. Basically you get a set amount of points for each bosskill (1st kill = 5pts, 2nd kill = 3pts, farm = 1pt), you also get 2pts for staying the entire raid (-1pt for turning up late and -1pt for leaving early). These points add up and gives you a place in the ladder. When a piece of loot drops people with points are allowed to call trumps on it (Calling trumps beat a roll). If two or more player called trumps the person with the highest trump points win. If two or more are on equal trumps they roll off. The person who wins an item with trumps looses all his/her trump points INCLUDING those that he/she'd gain from the current raid.
Isnt that almost like DKP with bid all points on each bid? You get points for each raid (finished or not) and you spend it all on each bid. If thers a nuance i cant see it....
The single advantage of the old players to get gear fastest is that it permits then to be more effective in raids hence compensating for say a new player first raiding.
DKP with bid works well when there is a relatively fixed raid team. Oldest players bid high prices, use up their DKP and prices lower for newer players. The only setback is that sometimes its to late for casual players say. From the experience of our kin we have had no issue with DKP with bid, at the moment uncapped. It all comes down to the group, our oldest raiders dont usually hog loot and take it from new players ausing their DKP pool.
One idea that has gone around our kin is to reset the DKP for each new raid cluster added. That would mean on every new cluster all get a clean slate. It appears even better is to maintain a percentage of current DKP, say 10-20% to give old raiders the edge to become good geared and do their stuff better (lets face it if your raid leader main tank and main heal is in super gear raid goes faster and better).
have no idea if DKP with reseting DKP at new content has a name. It was first hinted by our founder Bestone and we have yet to adopt it and test it.
Oppinions on this?
Capped DKP looks better then reseting or "percentage-reseting" in my eyes. Of course, when using DKP system you have to follow "unwriten laws" and you wont take something from kinsman that really needs it and you dont benefit from that, like taking symbol and selling it and your kinmate has 3rd age weapon (i know symbol is in SC, its just example). With good rules dkp system is fine for WW kinships
Isnt that almost like DKP with bid all points on each bid? You get points for each raid (finished or not) and you spend it all on each bid. If thers a nuance i cant see it....
One of the major differences is that you still can get loot without spending points i.e. if no one trumps it. People who trump often will have less points but in reverse will get more loot while trumping less will net you less loot but you get the option of first pick. That's a major difference to DKP systems. Another difference is that trumps is more player friendly in that it takes a shorter time for new players to earn loot while older players still get the options of choice.
With a DKP system you can have -DKP, you can never have -trumps
Comparing systems I'd say the system that comes closest to Trumps is SK Ladder
Zitat von Iluvatardd
Capped DKP looks better then reseting or "percentage-reseting" in my eyes. Of course, when using DKP system you have to follow "unwriten laws" and you wont take something from kinsman that really needs it and you dont benefit from that, like taking symbol and selling it and your kinmate has 3rd age weapon (i know symbol is in SC, its just example). With good rules dkp system is fine for WW kinships
It only works for a certain amount of time (depending on how fast you rack up points), once it reaches critical mass it's hard for newer players to get in on it. Loot distribution is, like it or not, a major part why some raidgroups fail. New people not getting any loot = they leave. With no inflow of new players the group will become stagnant and when it looses enough players it will break since newer ones can't get in. The system still has to reward veteran raiders so they feel they get something out of it as well.
True, a DKP system works great as long as no one is overly concerned with loot. But in most kins you'll always have people that want all the shinies which is why i prefer trumps since it's up to you what you want. You could choose to get that necklace this week, but that would mean opting out on the ring etc.
I agree that main characters should have priority if you respect your kin m8s.. ''some rules are unwritten..''
I understand priority only to an alt (tank or healer) who is necessary for the raid activity of the kin..
Fralin thx for your comprehensive post..
I agree as well. Certain key classes will be needed for certain encounters, be it tanks, healers, CC, buffs, whatnot. And in that case those should get prio. With that being said I'd also like to point out that the better system you have the less the risk of alt gearing over mains happening. With a DKP system there's always the option of gearing up alts (was once in a run where I would have won the gloves from BG, this was at 65. Then another member of the same kin rolled over me and donated the gloves to their own player... which also was that players 3rd alt. Needless to say I didn't have very much to do with said kin afterwards). If you utilize the trump system people won't be gearing up alts with trumps meaning new mains get the loot instead simply because the fact that they can't afford gearing alts if they want to get shinies for their main. Usually the groups are split in two. ~3/4 of the group will use small amounts of trumps to get loot for their character, usually these are the people with multiple alts. then you have 1/4 who save their trumps to be able to get first pick at something. And then you have new people who literally on their 2nd raid could get loot with trumps. Works out good for everyone in the end.
Isnt that almost like DKP with bid all points on each bid? You get points for each raid (finished or not) and you spend it all on each bid. If thers a nuance i cant see it....
Yes, they are both spend-all systems. If I were to be very analytic, I'd say that DKP systems primarely rewards points on boss kills, while Fralin's description of the thrump system rewards general attendance. It could just be different names for the same system though.
To the OP: First thing you should think about, is that there is no perfect dkp/loot distributing system. Some favour casual players (random rolls, Suicide Kings, etc) while other rewards continued attendance (trumph) and/or progress (simple DKP). You might even stick with random rolls, which might be preferable if your kin raid unregulary.
If you have a small but loyal raid group (close to 12 players), a simple dkp system or trumph might give the fairest distribution of loot. If you want to keep it more casual, or have a larger player pool / members who are often absent, try SK.
To the OP: First thing you should think about, is that there is no perfect dkp/loot distributing system. Some favour casual players (random rolls, Suicide Kings, etc) while other rewards continued attendance (trumph) and/or progress (simple DKP). You might even stick with random rolls, which might be preferable if your kin raid unregulary.
If you have a small but loyal raid group (close to 12 players), a simple dkp system or trumph might give the fairest distribution of loot. If you want to keep it more casual, or have a larger player pool / members who are often absent, try SK.
edit: heh, you ppl are quick to reply..
I agree on someof the points. If you don't have a steady schedule (e.g. 1/week or 4/week) and just raid ad hoc, simple rolls are the best. I'd say trumps also favors casual players since their points don't get deleted so they could still come back after a long absence and get loot (according to their current points ofc). The best situation is obviously when everyone knows what pieces they want as well as what other swant and also know how the piece in question can benefit the group the most. Sadly that's not always the case. In my experience trumps works equally well with 30+ casuals as it does with 12 hc raiders
As i said previously the problem you have with DKP is the DKP gap, there's nothing you can do about it as such without switching systems
PS. Yes, loot distribution is imo important to get right, seen it go horribly wrong once too many
I know my Oppinion isnt really wanted,but i will share something with you.
I was in a Kinship,that raided very sucessfull for Years on a big Server... We did not have DKP,or any special System at all.We gave out Loot to the People that wanted it,and had a reasonable need ^.^ Champions i.e didnt get fate jewellry,unless no one else needed.
Run Baug was an example of this,it was the best possible champion/burg and Hunter earring at that Time. Hunters had priority(due to the ranged something stat that was on it),and they all got it first,then champs and then Burgs etc etc.. Same with most Items...
Reason why this worked so well for us was clearly that we all where Friends/Teamplayers and,none of us where greedy or selfish.. We knew we are going to clear the raid more then once,and in a reasonable Time everyone will have all he could possibly want for his Chars.
We did gear important Roles first if we felt it is going to help us do things easier/faster etc. That was decided by Raidlead,Kinlead and talked about with the Members,and for reasons i mentioned above there was never any bad feelings between players when one got something earlier then another...
Obviously this will work best if you are raiding constantly with most members of the Kin attending (2 or more Raidgroups if needed clearing raids regularly.),and you have the people that arent selfish,greedy and will stop attending Raids once they got what they want,and arent getting "rewarded" aka +DKP,+Trumps or whatever other stuff there is.
Now,finding such People that arent going to go crazy about Loot,arent selfish,greedy or never attending to a raid once they got their wanted stuff,is where the hard part is at. But i always immagined Myrmidones to be the closest to such a Kin on our Server,due to that strong Bond you guys seemed to share(all greeks and friends etc.)
Big Kins that only have 1 constantly switching somewhat casual raidgrp however might have problems with this way of distribution. There i can see the advantages of DKP or other lootsystems..
I never understood this whole : I want this item NAO,i cant wait a week till i get it!!! I passed on my Firstager when it was my turn to get one xD I wont die if i get it some days later,or even weeks,if i know the Person that got it really had good use for it,and even more so,deserved it for the effort and contribution to the Kin/raids etc. And i got mine shortly after. Why would People make a fuss about Loot...
And to end this long text full of unneeded information i say this :
No matter what Lootsytem you have,it all comes down to the People you play with/additional rules you set up for it.
i.e Alts bidding DKP/trump on a gearpiece and getting it cause they have more then a Main or some stupid stuff(for me always a No-Go),its up to the Players to make it fair. When you have the right People with the right Mindset about Loot any System works,and is Fair to everyone.
Now,finding such People that arent going to go crazy about Loot,arent selfish,greedy or never attending to a raid once they got their wanted stuff,is where the hard part is at. But i always immagined Myrmidones to be the closest to such a Kin on our Server,due to that strong Bond you guys seemed to share(all greeks and friends etc.)
I m happy that this mindset is going out of our kinship without telling it and thanks for your observation..
I think the bond of the fellow can't be compared even with the loot of the One Ring (let Frodo carry it..)
DKP system is a good guide to show the sequence of important loots as 1st ages items, clusps, scales but some unwritten rules should always been followed so as the bond of kinm8s won't leave any margins to greedy intentions..
I can refer some unwritten rules (some of them are already refered)
1. Items which are usefull for specific classes will be avaliable only for the specific classes
2. Main characters should have priority
3. Great loots as 1st ages, clusps cloaks would be nice if anyone has only one of them until all the other raiders get one of it
(It's not nice to get your 2d alternative draigoch cloak if one of the raiders don't even has his main one)
4. Items which are not wanted from the rest raid group can be passed to the newer raiders without subtracting points
5. Most important.. Keep going to kin raids even if you have got the item you were interested in..
By the time you got help on it you have to help the others to get it too..
Generally and specially if you follow the basic unwritten rule:
''Act to others in way you would like others act to you''
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