Thread: Any chance the AK-Fury 10s......

Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk

Wrong. Freeps are collectively better than Creeps in every way imaginable, a mixed group of Freeps > > > > > >> > > Creeps. There is zero way to debate this. Like I said before, PvP was never about individual class based comparisons. It is about group play.

Both are oversights, you're a hypocrite. I mean, Turbine MADE these pots this way, learn to like it or leave kthnx. Unless you're trying to argue Turbine intended to make PvP unbalanced? Which would be absurd, to say the least. And would inadvertently justify the pots either way.

I have made 2 posts, in which i was talking about the game and its mechanics in general, yet you replied to both with insults on me first about my logic, and now calling me a hypocrite. That sais a lot ^^

Im not gonna continue arguing with ppl like you. cyas!

Originally Posted by PureEvil-Lotro

chugging them like jello shots at a frat party...

Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk

What. Why? Even with these pots Freeps > > > > > Creeps. By a huge margin. One could argue Freeps being so unablanced is broken, should everyone not play their Freep because they are broken? Your logic is...something.

I got one:

Turbine stated that their vision for the Moors was balance, however, Freeps are extremely OP. This is clearly an unintended bug, a bug that is being exploited by every Freep out in the Moors....

Special mention goes to all the new mini's we've been seeing PvPing, now the most played Freep class? (at least on my server)

I have made 2 posts, in which i was talking about the game and its mechanics in general, yet you replied to both with insults on me first about my logic, and now calling me a hypocrite. That sais a lot ^^

I think its mainly because everyone is so sick of seeing people only complaining about the faults on one side while they truly act like nothing is wrong on the other. They just choose not to answer or ignore pretty much all other topics that would represent broken mechanics as well. This may or may not be your case. Here's an example

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...Warden-ability

Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon

I have made 2 posts, in which i was talking about the game and its mechanics in general, yet you replied to both with insults on me first about my logic, and now calling me a hypocrite. That sais a lot ^^

Im not gonna continue arguing with ppl like you. cyas!

What do you call someone with contradictory standards if not a hypocrite?

First thing that came to mind?

Originally Posted by PhantomPunkk

What do you call someone with contradictory standards if not a hypocrite?

I believe the term you're looking for is "Cognitive Dissonance" - the ability to hold two contradictory ideas at the same time.

Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon

sigh... Yeah turbine made them both. The difference is that classes were intended to work that way while pots were not. Cant you see the difference?

For all you know the pots were intended to work this way as well. Turbine still hasn't said that these pots are "bugged" and therefore we must assume they are WAI.

Originally Posted by Ames

^This...

I like how every thread, every single thread in this forum if a freep has anything to say that they would like changed or an issue fixed, its immediately discredited because creeps are underpowered. I've played creep and a freep, most freeps that have any care for balance and PvP will admit there needs to be some buffing to creep side. That does not mean everything a freep says should be completely discredited. If it might be broken (even if its not stated that this is a broken mechanic) then what does it hurt pointing it out so Turbine can take a look at it? All of you arguing for balanced PvP (despite the games lack of balanced PvP) should agree, instead its no creeps are underpowered stop crying. If you did have the upper hand, would any of you here argue for the opposing side, or want to be trolled when you have a complaint about game mechanics? Why would Turbine want to admit that is broken only to be inundated with exploit reports from players?

I understand your frustration, but you have to understand ours as well. Almost every thread a freep ever makes is complaining about something, anything, that creeps have that they don't. Didn't even take a week for freeps to start complaining about wargs when u7 hit. They're complaining about Moridirith's brand right now, and there are countless other things they have whined about which tends to drive creeps a bit batty sometime. It's no secret that creeps have been the underpowered side for quite some time, and it doesn't help to see the "favored child" have the gall to ask for more.
I understand that some of you do understand that we're underpowered and would like to see us buffed some, but the majority of people don't. Which is why we sometimes overreact, not necessarily unjustified.

Originally Posted by l4j

<snip>
Ours are characters as much as yours are. We may not have the content, or the backstories, but that doesn't make ours any less characters. Treat us that way. And we'll do the same.

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to l4j again.

Originally Posted by l4j

I believe the term you're looking for is "Cognitive Dissonance" - the ability to hold two contradictory ideas at the same time.

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to l4j again.

1) If you think 1m immunity to slows on a 2m CD isn't broke, you're an idiot.
2) If you're popping them just for the immunity to slows, you're an exploiter.
3) Not everyone who uses the fury pots are exploiters (see #2).
4) In 1:1 comparisons freeps are OP in general so this bug can be put on the back burner until more relevent fixes/balances can be implemented.
5) Turbine almost NEVER says something is an exploit (even when you could kill bosses without taking damage while standing in door frames, see MoM for 12 months) so lack of acknowledgement means nothing.

6) Just about every single creep posting in this thread are basically arguing two wrongs make a right.

Let's address a few of these in order, shall we?

Originally Posted by doug01

1) If you think 1m immunity to slows on a 2m CD isn't broke, you're an idoit.

Counterpoint: If you think a 30 second stun immunity, usable on others, on a 5 second cooldown, that also removes existing debuffs, isn't broke, you're an idiot. (Echoing your words here. I don't normally refer to someone as an idiot for an opinion that differs from my own.)

Originally Posted by doug01

2) If you're popping them just for the immunity to slows, you're an exploiter.

Counterpoint: Debatable. While it does provide a measurable advantage, it is limited, not seriously game changing (see Counterpoint #1) and costly. Hard time considering it an Exploit akin to, say, how Hunters used to Horse Leap up to the pylons and shoot melee classes with impunity.

Originally Posted by doug01

3) Not everyone who uses the fury pots are exploiters (see #2).

Agreed and accepted.

Originally Posted by doug01

4) In 1:1 comparisons freeps are OP in general so this bug can be put on the back burner until more relevent fixes/balances can be implemented.

Agreed and accepted. I think the issue is not so much that the Creeps don't want to lose an advantage, no matter how slim, but that there are numerous other issues that have a much greater impact on game play and balance.

Originally Posted by doug01

5) Turbine almost NEVER says something is an exploit (even when you could kill bosses without taking damage while standing in door frames, see MoM for 12 months) so lack of acknowledgement means nothing.

Agreed and accepted.

Originally Posted by doug01

6) Just about every single creep posting in this thread are basically arguing two wrongs make a right.

Counterpoint: Somewhat exaggerated, and not entirely accurate. Please see my comment above. I think this is more a case of "There are far more important things to fix first, and this 'bug' doesn't even compensate for the imbalance in power - making it even less of a priority."

Is the pot WaI? Probably not. Are people using it knowing this? Almost certainly. Is it game changing and unbalancing? No. Honestly, it's not. Should it be fixed? Eventually, yes. Anything that's not WaI ultimately should be fixed. Is it worth the epic level of argument it's getting? No.

It has a longer duration than intended. Oh well. It means that maybe, just maybe, a few creepside characters will manage to escape when they'd have otherwise been taken down. In most cases, it means freepside players will have to work a little harder for their kills every once in a while.

Originally Posted by l4j

Counterpoint: If you think a 30 second stun immunity, usable on others, on a 5 second cooldown, that also removes existing debuffs, isn't broke, you're an idiot. (Echoing your words here. I don't normally refer to someone as an idiot for an opinion that differs from my own.)

I thought this thread was about easily obtained consumables. What you are referencing is a class skill to which you would need to have another player with you at all time to make the comparison even slightly legitimate. Pocket LMS/Cappies/WL/Defilers/etc is a whole different concept than barterable consumables that every solo player can have.

WTT comms for stun immunity pots with a 1m CD and 30s duration. (<---Totally OP, just as the fury pots are)

Originally Posted by l4j

Counterpoint: Debatable. While it does provide a measurable advantage, it is limited, not seriously game changing (see Counterpoint #1) and costly. Hard time considering it an Exploit akin to, say, how Hunters used to Horse Leap up to the pylons and shoot melee classes with impunity.

Again, this is a completely different thing. Is the use of landscape an expoit? Maybe (likely in your example), but it still is a completely different discussion. You're trying to pull in other possible exploits used by your opponent to justify this one. Again, two wrongs are two wrongs. I don't think that the fury pots bug is a "game breaking" exploit by any measure, but that doesn't change what it is....which is a bugged item that players commonly exploit.

As a burglar, fury pots are highly annoying. I would certainly appreciate it if they were fixed, but I can manage fine.

Mordirith's Brand is a different matter entirely.

Originally Posted by l4j

Let's address a few of these in order, shall we?



Counterpoint: If you think a 30 second stun immunity, usable on others, on a 5 second cooldown, that also removes existing debuffs, isn't broke, you're an idiot. (Echoing your words here. I don't normally refer to someone as an idiot for an opinion that differs from my own.)



Counterpoint: Debatable. While it does provide a measurable advantage, it is limited, not seriously game changing (see Counterpoint #1) and costly. Hard time considering it an Exploit akin to, say, how Hunters used to Horse Leap up to the pylons and shoot melee classes with impunity.



Agreed and accepted.



Agreed and accepted. I think the issue is not so much that the Creeps don't want to lose an advantage, no matter how slim, but that there are numerous other issues that have a much greater impact on game play and balance.



Agreed and accepted.



Counterpoint: Somewhat exaggerated, and not entirely accurate. Please see my comment above. I think this is more a case of "There are far more important things to fix first, and this 'bug' doesn't even compensate for the imbalance in power - making it even less of a priority."

Is the pot WaI? Probably not. Are people using it knowing this? Almost certainly. Is it game changing and unbalancing? No. Honestly, it's not. Should it be fixed? Eventually, yes. Anything that's not WaI ultimately should be fixed. Is it worth the epic level of argument it's getting? No.

It has a longer duration than intended. Oh well. It means that maybe, just maybe, a few creepside characters will manage to escape when they'd have otherwise been taken down. In most cases, it means freepside players will have to work a little harder for their kills every once in a while.

see?!.. thats the answer you ll always get if you try to explain, and have fixed something broken, that is not supposed to work that way, that will have an impact on someone's gameplay. lol

Now even the LM's SI skill is 'broken', the skill that was here since the beginning.

Its quite funny when every single creep cried about the RK's fire skill thingy at the launch of RoI, saying its an exploit. (and sure it was). Then not even 1 month later, a huge amount of BA's bought a second VT from the store, and used them both.
When it was mentioned on the forum, pretty much everyone replied 'the RK fire skill was gamebreaking, the double VT was not'
An exploit is an exploit no matter if its gamebreaking or not. If you say you are strongly against it, you wont use it anyways.

Trying to explain that to certain people, sorry but the majority here is creeps, is like trying to explain quantum physics to a 10 year old. *many freeps can be as bad as well*

No wonder why the monster play forum is the way it is atm, and it will only get worse, as less and less people bother to reply, cause they ll get insta-trolled by god knows how many others.

So keep on whining, we need something to read that is funny as hell

Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon

see?!.. thats the answer you ll always get if you try to explain, and have fixed something broken, that is not supposed to work that way, that will have an impact on someone's gameplay. lol

Now even the LM's SI skill is 'broken', the skill that was here since the beginning.

Its quite funny when every single creep cried about the RK's fire skill thingy at the launch of RoI, saying its an exploit. (and sure it was). Then not even 1 month later, a huge amount of BA's bought a second VT from the store, and used them both.
When it was mentioned on the forum, pretty much everyone replied 'the RK fire skill was gamebreaking, the double VT was not'
An exploit is an exploit no matter if its gamebreaking or not. If you say you are strongly against it, you wont use it anyways.

Trying to explain that to certain people, sorry but the majority here is creeps, is like trying to explain quantum physics to a 10 year old. *many freeps can be as bad as well*

No wonder why the monster play forum is the way it is atm, and it will only get worse, as less and less people bother to reply, cause they ll get insta-trolled by god knows how many others.

So keep on whining, we need something to read that is funny as hell

Should an exploit/bug be fixed? yes. Should pvmp be balanced ? yes. Ofc if things were balanced out there i imagine it wouldnt be Creeps who were whining....

Bug or not, bugs are commonly ignored for long periods of time. Ninja fixes, buffs, nerfs happen all the time without any mention of them in notes.

Better question: Why "balance" creeps through consumables as we've been seeing lately (armour/resist/evade pots penetrate death, fury brands, and now mordirith's brand) and not through their class skills/mechanics?

Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon

see?!.. thats the answer you ll always get if you try to explain, and have fixed something broken, that is not supposed to work that way, that will have an impact on someone's gameplay. lol

Now even the LM's SI skill is 'broken', the skill that was here since the beginning.

Project much?

Your original statement was "If you don't think a 1 minute immunity on a 2 minute cooldown is broken, you're an idiot." Your words. Not mine. I simply presented a WaI ability that is vastly more useful and game changing as a counterpoint.

Is it broken? *shrugs* It is what it is. We deal with it We don't yell for it to be nerfed.

Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon

Its quite funny when every single creep cried about the RK's fire skill thingy at the launch of RoI, saying its an exploit. (and sure it was). Then not even 1 month later, a huge amount of BA's bought a second VT from the store, and used them both.
When it was mentioned on the forum, pretty much everyone replied 'the RK fire skill was gamebreaking, the double VT was not'
An exploit is an exploit no matter if its gamebreaking or not. If you say you are strongly against it, you wont use it anyways.

And if you'll read my responses rather than just parsing for the parts you'd like to rail against, you'll note that I fully agree that bugs need to be fixed. However, given limited development resources, focusing on one that arguably improves balance in PvMP, is a waste of said resources. Personally, I won't care - because I don't use store pots or commendation purchased pots.

Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon

Trying to explain that to certain people, sorry but the majority here is creeps, is like trying to explain quantum physics to a 10 year old. *many freeps can be as bad as well*

So . . . you're back to that "You don't agree with me, you must be an idiot" implication? Perhaps not, but that's how I read the statement above. And . . . again, project much?

This is a lot like trying to explain to a Freep that the Creeps are the underpowered side, and that focusing on some minor bug rather than suggesting some honest balance doesn't help.

Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon

No wonder why the monster play forum is the way it is atm, and it will only get worse, as less and less people bother to reply, cause they ll get insta-trolled by god knows how many others.

So keep on whining, we need something to read that is funny as hell

I'm not the one whining, or trolling...

Originally Posted by Blackheart-Fury

Should an exploit/bug be fixed? yes

agreed.

Originally Posted by Blackheart-Fury

Should pvmp be balanced ? yes.

Ideally yes....but I don't think it ever will be (intentionally at least). People point to balance shifts of the past, but the difference now is FTP. I don't think the moors can survive 1:1 balance....the pop shift would be too dramatic and people have gotten too comfortable with the current state to stomach closer balance on a broader scale imo. Its a business after all....keep your paying/more valuable customers happy. It would be interesting to know, but I suspect the creepside pop is heavily subsidized by free accounts.

Originally Posted by Apache140

Better question: Why "balance" creeps through consumables as we've been seeing lately (armour/resist/evade pots penetrate death, fury brands, and now mordirith's brand) and not through their class skills/mechanics?

1) Easier (less dev time/$)
2) Comm sinks creepside
3) Encourages store use to stay competitive (thinking brands, and comm rationing)
4) Consumables (blades) > Skills (razors) wrt longer term $ from store

/shrug.

Originally Posted by l4j

Your original statement was "If you don't think a 1 minute immunity on a 2 minute cooldown is broken, you're an idiot." Your words.

Umm, your're wrong. In many ways.

And as I said:

Originally Posted by Doug01

1) If you think 1m immunity to slows on a 2m CD isn't broke, you're an idiot.

Is still valid. You can discuss the impact the broken pots have and wether or not fixing them should be a priority, but trying to argue that the pots aren't broken just makes you look foolish and/or an idiot.

Originally Posted by doug01

Umm, your're wrong. In many ways.

Yes. I know. I'm sorry. I failed to include your typos and abbreviations. It is plainly obvious to me now that:

"If you don't think a 1 minute immunity on a 2 minute cooldown is broken, you're an idiot."

is not even remotely close to:

"If you think 1m immunity to slows on a 2m CD isn't broke, you're an idoit."

Originally Posted by doug01

And as I said:

Is still valid. You can discuss the impact the broken pots have and wether or not fixing them should be a priority, but trying to argue that the pots aren't broken just makes you look foolish and/or an idiot.

And your missing the point that, more than once, I've pointed out that if it's a bug it should be fixed, makes you look rather, shall we say, foolish? I don't recall ever arguing specifically that they weren't broken. I have, however, pointed out that fixing them does not warrant a high priority.

Please, if you're going to call me an idiot (or idoit as you spell it), at least have the courtesy to call me out on an argument I'm actually making.

Or . . . wait. You're not Pureblood in disguise, are you?

Originally Posted by l4j

Yes. I know. I'm sorry. I failed to include your typos and abbreviations. It is plainly obvious to me now that:

"If you don't think a 1 minute immunity on a 2 minute cooldown is broken, you're an idiot."

is not even remotely close to:

"If you think 1m immunity to slows on a 2m CD isn't broke, you're an idoit."

In a final effort to help you see your error and why I repeated MY quote I'll post the dialog from your previous post. Please note who you are replying to and trying to attibute quotes to:

Originally Posted by l4j

Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon

see?!.. thats the answer you ll always get if you try to explain, and have fixed something broken, that is not supposed to work that way, that will have an impact on someone's gameplay. lol

Project much?

Your original statement was "If you don't think a 1 minute immunity on a 2 minute cooldown is broken, you're an idiot." Your words. Not mine. I simply presented a WaI ability that is vastly more useful and game changing as a counterpoint.

If that doesn't help you out, then I give up.

Originally Posted by l4j

And your missing the point that, more than once, I've pointed out that if it's a bug it should be fixed, makes you look rather, shall we say, foolish? I don't recall ever arguing specifically that they weren't broken. I have, however, pointed out that fixing them does not warrant a high priority.

Please, if you're going to call me an idiot (or idoit as you spell it), at least have the courtesy to call me out on an argument I'm actually making.

I was simply noting that anyone who does not think this is a broken item and is WAI is an idiot. In reading your post I'm assuming that you do think it is broken so I'm unsure as to why you think I'm somehow insulting you. Thanks for the spelling/grammer (yea, I spelt dat wit a "e") notes, now please work on your reading comprehension.

Or . . . wait. You're not Pureblood in disguise, are you?

Now I feel insulted.

Originally Posted by doug01

In a final effort to help you see your error and why I repeated MY quote I'll post the dialog from your previous post. Please note who you are replying to and trying to attibute quotes to:

If that doesn't help you out, then I give up.

Indeed, and for this mistake I apologize. The foibles of two many responses and nested quotes in a long thread.

My error, and I apologize for it.

Originally Posted by doug01

I was simply noting that anyone who does not think this is a broken item and is WAI is an idiot. In reading your post I'm assuming that you do think it is broken so I'm unsure as to why you think I'm somehow insulting you. Thanks for the spelling/grammer (yea, I spelt dat wit a "e") notes, now please work on your reading comprehension.

Oh, comprehension isn't the issue here. My point is given the verbiage of the tool tip someone could, albeit optimistically, consider 1 minute to be WaI. Regardless, I see considering someone an idiot for their opinion a bit harsh.

Insulting terms, in most any context, interfere with constructive dialogue.

Originally Posted by doug01

Now I feel insulted.

*chuckles*

Plainly, you're not him.

Cheers.