I read this thread late in the evening yesterday and when asleep I actually had a dream that it had been introduced with the next expansion o.O. But I actually dont like the idea of this class, it resembles LM too much and functions like LM too. Off-heal,debuff,cc - that is all done by LM, and that it would specialize on damage DoT and would use plants instead of Knowledge/Lore is imo not enough.
Current classes already cover all fellowship roles - cc,debuff,buff,heal,tank,dps etc. If there should be a new one, it would have to bring something completely new and that is hard to think up especially if it has to be lore-friendly.
Personally I would love some dwarf-only class which would be based on craft and collecting treasures. It could craft for himself different throwing tools, traps and other devices and have a chance of getting some extra loot. But I am afraid the economy in the game is not developed enough and a class like this couldnt simply benefit much from being just more rich than the others.
Of course it's fiction, but that doesn't give carte blanche to make up any old nonsense. That's the problem with such would-be class suggestions: they're one-trick ponies where the trick is something that has nothing whatsoever to do with the parent fiction, gimmicky in every aspect and often downright silly.
That remark I made was half-joking (notice the smiley?) but let's not forget that Herb Guy would be going into combat, where things get kind of rough.
Err, yes. And if your reference is supposedly this game, I'm just not seeing the connection.
What connection were you looking for? If you want my basic meaning for a game then it is a frivilous activity that one does for enjoyment but has no practical purpose in life. Are you now satisfied in what I mean by a game? And I didn't think any here was making up any old nonsense all of it has been rather logical so far or so it seems to me anyway.
And no I did not forget that this class would be going into battle where the risk factor is all the higher. However it has to be said that every player character is NOT your average joe on the street. They are a cut above the norm and so I would hazard a guess that as such this class would be all the more careful about how they conducted themselves in said battle. I can evision them being almost ninja like in many ways. Perhaps taking advantage of what Hobbits do best that is to stay unoticed by the big folk that are all bashing each other to peices. In so doing they choose the best opportune time to make their planned attack.
They of course would have thier exploding pouches in a leather container that has been treated agaisnt water, thus keeping the contents dry even if they get dunked into a lake. The spore bombs are tightly packed to prevent them bursting from an errant blow or fall. Now the Hobbit, having gained the perfect postion reaches into thier leather bag removing one pouch of "Fungus of Doom", making sure that the rest are still tightly packed by using some kind of stuffing, maybe a rag. They then lob the single pouch at the foe before them, this action may reveal their position of course, hence drawing some threat when performing this action.
However the pouch hurtles over and hits the enemy in the head in a puff of smoke. The enemy then breathes in the spores and almost immediatly the effects take hold. Here we have to take a little artistic licence and just say the reaction is immediate as it would be rather tedious in a game to wait in real time just for the sake of realism. In any case the enemy in question then starts to loose X amount of moral for the next one or two minutes.
Now in the actual game all you would see is a Hobbit player throw a small object at the foe and puff smoke animation on contact then the effect of moral reduction over time. The player of the Hobbit would have to have a few min cool down on using the skill again as they would need to repack the bag and so forth after removing the pouch to ensure they don't burst accidently. Bottom line is though in game most of the above is taken care of behind the scenes and you would never have to deal with it as a player. However you seem to have wanted a step by step explanation and I have done the best I can for now. Considering that this idea will most likely never see the light of day though I doubt I'll want to spend too much time trying to figure it out just to prove a point.
What connection were you looking for? If you want my basic meaning for a game then it is a frivilous activity that one does for enjoyment but has no practical purpose in life. Are you now satisfied in what I mean by a game? And I didn't think any here was making up any old nonsense all of it has been rather logical so far or so it seems to me anyway.
What do I look for? What the other classes in the game have, at least some connection, however tenuous which this most certainly does not (no archetype of any sort in the book, not even the tiniest of precedents upon which to base this). And before you say it, hobbits in themselves aren't that precedent because halflings are far from unique to Tolkien, as they've been borrowed so extensively. Let's try and remember these are supposed to be something like the originals, shall we?
Games are ultimately frivolous, yes, being entertainment but that is not a reason to get silly.
And no I did not forget that this class would be going into battle where the risk factor is all the higher. However it has to be said that every player character is NOT your average joe on the street. They are a cut above the norm and so I would hazard a guess that as such this class would be all the more careful about how they conducted themselves in said battle. I can evision them being almost ninja like in many ways. Perhaps taking advantage of what Hobbits do best that is to stay unoticed by the big folk that are all bashing each other to peices. In so doing they choose the best opportune time to make their planned attack.
Oh, so now they're ninja herbalists! That explains everything!
They of course would have thier exploding pouches in a leather container that has been treated agaisnt water, thus keeping the contents dry even if they get dunked into a lake. The spore bombs are tightly packed to prevent them bursting from an errant blow or fall. Now the Hobbit, having gained the perfect postion reaches into thier leather bag removing one pouch of "Fungus of Doom", making sure that the rest are still tightly packed by using some kind of stuffing, maybe a rag. They then lob the single pouch at the foe before them, this action may reveal their position of course, hence drawing some threat when performing this action.
That reminds me, what exactly is supposed to make these pouches (which would be very light indeed, with nothing but spores in them) burst when they land? How do you throw something that light any distance?
However the pouch hurtles over and hits the enemy in the head in a puff of smoke. The enemy then breathes in the spores and almost immediatly the effects take hold. Here we have to take a little artistic licence and just say the reaction is immediate as it would be rather tedious in a game to wait in real time just for the sake of realism. In any case the enemy in question then starts to loose X amount of moral for the next one or two minutes.
You're still glossing over how you would have hobbits doing something we'd consider hideously uncivilized (something that even half-decent modern cultures balk at and only rogue regimes would do), which seems a trifle out of place considering that in their own quiet way, hobbits were supposed to be more civilized than humanity. They didn't fight among themselves, they didn't kill each other (no hobbit had ever killed another in the history of the Shire), they didn't even go hunting for sport, only for food or other resources and most importantly they only ever fought in defence of themselves and others, as they weren't ever warlike. And yet you'd have these relatively gentle souls resorting to biological warfare. First it was poison, now this - one as bad as the other.
Now I'll warrant you, most games are pretty relaxed about player-characters doing all manner of hideous things (although that said, D&D does have your actions reflect back on how your character is viewed by others, via the alignment system) but these aren't any old player-characters, they're hobbits, and not D&Dish halflings either but the originals (or at least a version of them). There's a pretty stark moral divide in LOTR being good and evil, but you're acting like there's a grey area a mile wide (even wider than in real life, which is saying something!) and applying that to the least likely people you could ever have picked. Something's not right there.
Ignoring all these fights about lore, I think a great skill to have would be Salt in the Wound. After applying a bleed effect you throw a bag of salt for small DoT and possibly a debuff. +X% attack duration.
I like the idea of throwing rotten eggs at the enemy! My hobbits would have a field day with rotten egg stink bombs *chuckles*
Salting the wound thats a good idea aswell!
I do baulk at the thought of a hobbit applying something sticky on a blade and sticking the enemy with it....but rotten eggs oh yes definatly!
And if they had slings you could get a bit more range to fling nasty little surprises at the enemy. Powders, spores maybe even pitch/tar and setting alight or slowing down the enemy...although that might be more of an alchemy thing and not necessarily herbalism...hmm
Anyhoo alot of good suggestions and ideas being flung around.
Hey ho to the bottle i go, to heal my heart and drown my woe.....
It would also be cool for them to have a Dourhand Keg-Master power, by throwing bottles of alcohol at the enemy. I also think that they could launch athelas at the enemy. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think athelas hurts evil creatures doesn't it?
Is there a class that can add a temporary buff to weapons and armor? I can see a herbalist/gardener putting a lethal herb on a weapon or arrow to add a little extra damage or damage over time per hit (or the buff activates just once and fades on hit).
Wouldn't be a bad idea to add some sort of armor enchanting/buffing. Something that could be unique to this new class. They could add a +X stat buff to armor pieces, even if it were just strictly the pieces they make. Doesn't have to be limited to armor.
Inure a knee and throw salt at the wound. Forget an arrow to the knee. Salt hurts just as much.
Small weapon damage buffs sound like a nice addition. A little extra DPS for the soloers or to fill a DPS role.
For healing, heal over time skills would be the bread and butter (mostly). Maybe have a good herb that dampens pain (damage absorb).
Lore wise... Hobbits can become burglars, wardens and guardians. For as chilled out as Hobbits are lore-wise (unless I'm mistaken?) they shouldn't be out stabbing orcs in the knees or crotch. They'd much rather stay home and enjoy a drink/smoke and making/eating pies.
You seem to have got hobbits confused with Orcs, there.
Doesn't mean a Hobbit can't defect from racial norms. Not likely, I'm sure. But possible.
Of course that won't mean all herbalists poison their weapons. They can be used as healers.
I'm sure herbalists would be familiar with which plants are poisonous and which plants have healing properties.
Or the Herbalist would be happy just growing a garden.
Radhruin, time and time again you have denied this proposal and yet you seem to miss the point of what many here are saying. A comment like "Oh, so now they're ninja herbalists! That explains everything!" Did you actually understand what I was saying in that paragraph? I was trying to elude a sense that they would act in such a manner to avoid to be seen, again this is what Hobbits do best and please correct me if I am wrong. Hence I chose to express the idea as being ninja like or Like a ninja. I was not saying that they were a ninja. Next time read what I write more carefully. And honestly, the tone you seem to exude is not welcome. Adding a smiley to the end does not lessen the insult.
Yet still you tell me that I am glossing over a certain aspect... Well of course I am this idea is not likely if ever to be implimented. I'm not going to waste time and effort to draw up a very detailed explanation for you just to prove a point that will satisfy you. If I WERE working for Turbine (which I'm not) and I was tasked to write up proposal for this class for the game then I would spend time and effort in actually figuring out logical sense of it all. I'd even spend the hours required to find an example of said class in the books, something you seem to want. Yet this idea will never likely ever become a reality, the powers that be have made that perfectly clear. However as to a fragile bag that is thrown and explodes in a puff of smoke when it hits an object, you know like a Orc wearing armour. Well I guess you've never made a flour bomb.
I ask you though, can you see this class working at all? Forget that there may be no example of such a class in the book. I can't say either way on that point on whether it is true or not as I'm not that versed with the lore on the mattter, but I digress. Now just for a minute entertain the idea that this class is possible. As such if the skills that have been suggested that the class could possess do not work for you then how would you make this class work? What skills would you give it?
It does when the player-characters are supposed to be the good guys.
How does defecting from norms make someone not a good guy?
Are role-players not allowed to be a 'not a good guy'?
Defecting from norms for a greater good is quite subjective to points of view.
Or I used "defect" too loosely.
This may be a bit better to explain how I used "defect".
Not all Hobbits are the same, obviously.
Not all Hobbits will abide to their social / racial norms.
Some Hobbits will (not maybe) be more inclined to using poisoned blades than others.
Or all Hobbits the same no matter what?
Are all humans, elves, or dwarves the same?
Everyone's got their own perspectives and views of the world.
How does defecting from norms make someone not a good guy?
Are role-players not allowed to be a 'not a good guy'?
Defecting from norms for a greater good is quite subjective to points of view.
Or I used "defect" too loosely.
Using poisoned blades or arrows makes someone not a good guy. Those were things Orcs were in the habit of doing, in the book: hardly surprising because Orcs were vicious, cruel, sadistic and utterly amoral, being intended to represent all the worst aspects of humanity.
Have you read the book? Because if you can imagine hobbits using poison like that, at all, ever, it looks very much like you haven't.
Can I envision a Hobbit using poison for any reason? Sure can, as way to controll pests that destroy the crops on their farms. If the knowledge is there they would use it. Have a rabbit problem? Shoving poisoned pellets down rabbit holes about the farm would certainly help controll that issue if not stop it alltogether.
I recall that within the Hobbits own history they were envolved in another war in thier past. They've probably been envolved in several wars but I've not read any other book than LotR and the Hobbit to know any more other than what is contained within those volumes. In any case its not as if they are afraid or not willing to fight if the situation demands it. They will certainly do so and they would bring any and all knowledge they have to the battle. Thus if they ever used poison for a more domestic reason at all its only natural that they would use it in some way in a battle if they could. We've only suggested one or two possible ways so far.
Is using poison evil? Is killing for any reason no matter the method evil? Certainly, but the rules of life change during a war. That said is using poison to kill an Orc evil? A creature that is evil personified I would think no it is not evil to use poison on such a creature. The only good Orc after all is a dead one I would hazard to think that it matters not how it died only that it is dead.
However, we have debated this poison thing to death, (pun not intended, well maybe it was ) so I think its time to move on.
Can I envision a Hobbit using poison for any reason? Sure can, as way to controll pests that destroy the crops on their farms. If the knowledge is there they would use it. Have a rabbit problem? Shoving poisoned pellets down rabbit holes about the farm would certainly help controll that issue if not stop it alltogether.
That's not how it was done traditionally. You might want to look that up.
I recall that within the Hobbits own history they were envolved in another war in thier past.
In defence of the kingdom of which the Shire was then part, yes. I said they'd fight in defence of themselves and others.
Is using poison evil? Is killing for any reason no matter the method evil? Certainly, but the rules of life change during a war. That said is using poison to kill an Orc evil? A creature that is evil personified I would think no it is not evil to use poison on such a creature. The only good Orc after all is a dead one I would hazard to think that it matters not how it died only that it is dead.
Even in our world, harsh as it is and where moral relativism abounds, poisoned weapons are banned in war by international convention. The ends don't justify the means in that simplistic manner you suggest. Given in addition that as I've said (and as you should damn well know, if you've even done as much as read LOTR's prologue) hobbits were supposed to be gentler, kinder souls than Men. That seems to be the bit you're having trouble with, how out of character it would be for them to resort to such means. The good guys in general are supposed to better than Orcs, for that matter, and the habitual use of poisoned blades and arrows is definitely presented as Orc-work in the books.
Unfortunately, a main aspect of your idea, poison, is explicitly labeled by Tolkien as a tool only used by the Enemy. You will never see the Free Peoples using poison in this game.
More generally, I don't think another class is needed. Just let Hobbits be Lore-masters (as a store-exclusive premium class option to limit their availability).
Elendilmir: Arda Shrugged - Crickhollow: The Colonists
---That seems to be the bit you're having trouble with, how out of character it would be for them to resort to such means.---
Let's face it: every day, everywhere, people act out of character. That's what traumatic events do. That's what being threatened does. Even the most gentle, the most peace-loving person will change their ways in distress.
You're the only one who can't just drop the issue: if you're so firmly against the very idea, stop following this thread already, Radhruin_EU. Stop pestering those of us who'd like to have fun with this, see what we might come up with. Go bother someone else. Please.
Let's face it: every day, everywhere, people act out of character. That's what traumatic events do. That's what being threatened does. Even the most gentle, the most peace-loving person will change their ways in distress.
That's just a vague generalism, not an argument. No, the hobbits weren't supposed to have changed their essential nature like that. It's a temptation they actually resist.
First of all to the Lorebreakers Always fun to talk to these people. Uhmm Runekeeper? LM (which is kinda a sneaky way to feel like gandalf.Lets not lie to ourself). Thats all
On the thought about the class.... a really well thought one.I might agree on others on acid part. but they could be crafters also making potions and throwing them to the enemies. Herbs in general have poisonus and healing abilities so for sure have to be in some part in the class.
I also agree on the exclusive for hobbits part! And i would propose not only for Herbalist that. I believe every race must have a unique class...so you can have also a reason to play them all
That's not how it was done traditionally. You might want to look that up.
I wasn't talking about how it was done traditionaly again my point was if they had the knoweledge then they would use it. I was giving an example of one possible way. Nothing more than that but thanks for missing the point, yet again.
In defence of the kingdom of which the Shire was then part, yes. I said they'd fight in defence of themselves and others.
Well least we are in agreement here although I'm not sure what your counter argument is as this statement seems to support what I was trying to get at.
Even in our world, harsh as it is and where moral relativism abounds, poisoned weapons are banned in war by international convention. The ends don't justify the means in that simplistic manner you suggest. Given in addition that as I've said (and as you should damn well know, if you've even done as much as read LOTR's prologue) hobbits were supposed to be gentler, kinder souls than Men. That seems to be the bit you're having trouble with, how out of character it would be for them to resort to such means. The good guys in general are supposed to better than Orcs, for that matter, and the habitual use of poisoned blades and arrows is definitely presented as Orc-work in the books.
Granted that it has been many years since I last read the books, and to memory I have only read them maybe three times tops. It would seem however that I drew a slightly different conclusion from the text than you did. That said some of your points my be valid but but still you give no alternative to the discussion. You seem to have totally ignored my post challenging you to come up with any alternatives. It seems that you are not here to play the "What if" game with the rest of us. Why then do you bother posting in here at all? Surely you're not posting just to insult others, are you? Judging by your rep score I certainly hope not.
I wasn't talking about how it was done traditionaly again my point was if they had the knoweledge then they would use it. I was giving an example of one possible way. Nothing more than that but thanks for missing the point, yet again.
You can't bolster one contrivance with yet another. The point was that there are other and more practical ways of dealing with rabbits, ones that let you catch the rabbits rather than having them dying in their burrows. (Waste not, want not, and rabbit is very tasty).
Well least we are in agreement here although I'm not sure what your counter argument is as this statement seems to support what I was trying to get at.
I don't know what you're trying to get at. Hobbits would fight to defend themselves and others but that has nothing to do with whether they might use poison to do so.
Granted that it has been many years since I last read the books, and to memory I have only read them maybe three times tops. It would seem however that I drew a slightly different conclusion from the text than you did. That said some of your points my be valid but but still you give no alternative to the discussion. You seem to have totally ignored my post challenging you to come up with any alternatives. It seems that you are not here to play the "What if" game with the rest of us.
Oh, as in "what if" this isn't anything to do with LOTRO at all? I can't see any relevance to the game, the story, anything. Not only does it feature hobbits, of all people, doing something very nasty indeed but the whole point about the player-characters here is that they're supposed to be heroic, and what sort of hero goes around poisoning people? The whole thing's off and away on some mad tangent.
Then by all means tell us how you would make it relevant? We are all waiting with baited breath to be amazed with your indepth knowledge of LotR to show how you would make this proposed class work. Do not hesitate, lay it out bear for all of us to read. Show us your greater wisdom on this matter. Please, I for one can not wait to see how you would make this class not only relevant but perhaps, if it is truly inspired, a must for the Devs to create? I do hope you won't dissapoint.
Then by all means tell us how you would make it relevant? We are all waiting with baited breath to be amazed with your indepth knowledge of LotR to show how you would make this proposed class work. Do not hesitate, lay it out bear for all of us to read. Show us your greater wisdom on this matter. Please, I for one can not wait to see how you would make this class not only relevant but perhaps, if it is truly inspired, a must for the Devs to create? I do hope you won't dissapoint.
Why is it suddenly my job to fix someone else's dodgy suggestion? I don't think it can be made relevant to the game, because it doesn't respect what the game is about. It's just some generic fantasy gameplay slapped down casually on top of LOTRO.
Every class in the game derives from something in the books, however tenuous or dubious the link might actually be. This 'herbalist' business doesn't have any provenance at all for 'heroes' when it comes to inflicting harm, and it's made even worse by it supposedly being hobbits who are doing it. The idea of healing people by hurling things at them is pure metagaming, too, and I hate classes that are so contrived. It's bad enough when it's just a skill or two per class that's like that, but when it's a whole class, yuck. Awful.
It's just junk fantasy. If you look back, I only started posting because I reacted to the OP saying it was 'very lore appropriate', which was the most flagrant nonsense.
The idea of healing people by hurling things at them is pure metagaming, too, and I hate classes that are so contrived. It's bad enough when it's just a skill or two per class that's like that, but when it's a whole class, yuck. Awful.
It's just junk fantasy. If you look back, I only started posting because I reacted to the OP saying it was 'very lore appropriate', which was the most flagrant nonsense.
And this right here is the attitude that most of the people wasting their time responding to you can't stand.
You are snide. You are snooty. You make your arguments with an authoratative atmosphere and slip in underhanded insults towards others in the process.
You have single handedly taken the fun out of this thread.
You have derailed the atmosphere within this thread.
I would ask that you just stop making posts in this thread.
I would ask that noone else responds to this guy.
You are the type of person that sucks the fun out of LIFE.
I welcomed your opinion, I do not welcome your attitude.
Achereus, Ex-Leader of TDH
April 2007 - January 2012 RIP
Pewpewboomheadshot R10 BA, League of Extraordinary Creeps
Seems like a decent enough idea; as others have said, better then the other new class ideas that people just randomly bring up and want to be added in the game just because THEY want it. This class would be a mix of alot of other classes, though. I am someone who just says 'No new classes, the game has a good enough range already, etc.' but that is just what I say. Well, I just wanted to post a reply, don't usually do it. Good use of lore and such!
And this right here is the attitude that most of the people wasting their time responding to you can't stand.
You are snide. You are snooty. You make your arguments with an authoratative atmosphere and slip in underhanded insults towards others in the process.
Yes, I'm bitterly sarcastic but you shouldn't be in the least bit surprised given the sort of thing you've been saying. In your mind, you've taken a bunch of little folk who are supposed to be rather gentle by our standards, and turned them into ruthless fanatics who'll cheerfully poison anyone they even think might be evil.
This is what you said: "Using their knowledge of the natural world to utilize against what they would consider evil enemies would indeed be an effective way to help the cause. Maybe the nature of hobbits would be to never poison those who they know are good and pure, but what would stop them when it comes to dealing with savage beasts and forces that seek to claim what is good and right and pervert it into slavery and destruction?"
If hobbits had really thought like that then they'd have been entirely unable to resist the lure of the Ring's evil, because it could have used that against them. Congratulations, you just broke LOTR's entire plot!
I had a thought, what about something along the incence line. You know burning particualr herbs and sending the waft of odours over the battle field in some fashion. Something like that anyway. Honestly though I really need to think on it to nut it out further and then figure out how it will translate as a skill in the game. The particulars escape me for the moment but its a start and it was just a thought. Although perhaps maybe someone else can build on this idea for me *winks*
As for that other poster I am sure they'll make some negative post about this idea I just had even if it is just an acorn idea right now, the tree is yet to grow. Still, you know they are just keeping this thread on the first page by doing so which helps me and others to find it so we can contribute to the duscussion. We just need to ignore everything they say and explore this idea even further anyway. You have to admit, they are doing us a favour by keeping this thread active. You see, there is a silver lining to that particular menacing rain cloud.
---You know burning particualr herbs and sending the waft of odours over the battle field in some fashion.---
Lore-Masters have an out-of-combat rez that used to require having Shire Sweet-Leaf in your inventory. Essentially, you helped yourself to some pipeweed and the smoke revived your fallen partner.
In some update, the herb requirement was removed, but if an LM rezzes someone, the animation's still the same.
In other words, your idea wouldn't be that far-fetched, game-mechanic wise. Might look fun if someone had a smoke before engaging ie. Thorog...
Wouldn't it be easier to just let Hobbits play as Lore Masters?
"A love of learning (other than genealogical lore) was far from general among them, but there remained still a few in the older families who studied their own books, and even gathered reports of old times and distant lands from Elves, Dwarves, and Men." (Prologue, Concerning Hobbits)
Wouldn't it be easier to just let Hobbits play as Lore Masters?
"A love of learning (other than genealogical lore) was far from general among them, but there remained still a few in the older families who studied their own books, and even gathered reports of old times and distant lands from Elves, Dwarves, and Men." (Prologue, Concerning Hobbits)
Because that doesn't imply them knowing the 'deep' lore that the game's LMs are supposed to have. Acquiring power through knowledge just wasn't something hobbits were into.
this exists already, have you heard of skirmishes?
By gum you're right, now why did this not occur to me before now? You know what I think I need to make a Hobbit Guardian and have a Hobbit herbalist as thier skirm soldier
However, this discussion is more about a player controlled class, not a AI driven one. Still as technically the latter one can be created already in game its only natural to expand on it and convert it over to a Hobbit only player class. The only thing is currently the Herbalist skirm soldier is puly a buffing and healing type character. A skill set will still need to be thought up for solo play, should the powers that be actually impliment this idea in any fashion. Not likely but we can dream
Last edited by Grieyls; Jul 14 2012 at 04:26 PM.
Reason: Stupid Grammer :P
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Always fun to talk to these people. Uhmm Runekeeper? LM (which is kinda a sneaky way to feel like gandalf.Lets not lie to ourself). Thats all 
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Best idea
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