Thread: Removing LIs from PvMP

Just wondering if freeps want this as much as creeps?

While it would significantly lower your dps healing ect., it would also go towards balancing out play and making it easier to be able to PvP without first doing insane amounts of PvE to get those top tier LIs.

Also would a crafting tier that is rank gated allowing for higher ranks to have slightly better weapons (freepside battlefield promotions) be a good thing?

Would your creeps like to get rid of their range or snare skills??

I dont think so.

If you cant beat a freep then train more
If you cant beat a creep get better gear

Either way learn to play your class

As for Crafting Tier that is Rank gated .... roflmao

Originally Posted by Malindruel

If you cant beat a freep then train more

Have you, by any chance, played a creep properly past rank 6 before?

On the other hand, they can use buff up certain creep classes to make the game more "fair"...

Originally Posted by Malindruel

Would your creeps like to get rid of their range or snare skills??

I dont think so.

If you cant beat a freep then train more
If you cant beat a creep get better gear

Either way learn to play your class

You have ten chars listed, none of which are Creeps, and the one Freep that is lvl 75 is a Hunter, rank 3, that hasn't been active since at least July 2011 (according to oldest records at dailystats.theblackappendage.c om), with a rating of 976...

Originally Posted by Malindruel

If you cant beat a freep then train more

Please, tell me how I can beat a minstrel on my reaver.

I can't wait to hear this.

Originally Posted by Murtanion

Please, tell me how I can beat a minstrel on my reaver.

I can't wait to hear this.

find one that is not scared to drop below 80% morale and hope you crit often

Hahaha... I chuckle a little bit everytime someone mentions "Minstrel OPness" as it reminds me of DAoC yearrrsss ago... If you think Minstrels have it easy on lotro, imagine the same thing.. but stealthed, with an insta-aoe mez, among other things... Good times.

First off I'm really hoping the second poster in this thread was joking. If not they must not have played the game in quite awhile.

Now to the topic of discussion.

I think removing LI's from PvP would go a long way. A lot of the things that make the game imbalanced, unfair and just not fun in general are from LI's. Burning embers DoT being the perfect example of something that makes it just not fun. The crit multipliers on the other hand are just extremely OP and ruin every thing for someone on creep side. I believe we would find ourselves pretty close to a "balanced" moors if LI's, the devastate mechanic, and creep side TP perks were removed.

Freeps are plenty powerful. Even with removing all of the LI's I think they would do decent. Adding new weapons with more stats and more DPS would balance it nicely. Not to mention we could start using moors bartered items again and they could tie moors related buffs to them (that aren't crazy OP).

As much as I would LOVE to see this it is another thing we will never see happen although it would help PvMP tremendously (not only would it be an immediate impact but would make it a lot easier to balance future updates). I understand how many players spend tons of hours (if not days) in playing time just grinding for those items. I get this feeling they would throw a fit if they lost them.

P.S minstrels are OP!

Hehe ive seen people tank T2 instances without their main LIs, ive healed without my book, it makes a small difference. I think it would be best to leave the freeps alone and give boosts to creeps

*edit* about the OP minis, they could remove WS as a whole in the moors and you would still QQ about self heals and healing others, so dont QQ

Removing LIs would be awesome, but I'd rather scale creeps to freep level. Although fights would be TOO fast... How about a minus 99% outgoing healing and damage for all freeps in the moors. I think that would work . Oh, and -100% crit chance.

I'd love to see LIs removed and replaced by special rank-gated weapons. In my opinion, players shouldn't be forced into doing raids to have good gear for the Moors. Also, veterans should finally be awarded something other than a r12 horse and better brands.

Yes remove Li's from pvmp would improve ettens.
Less grind for my freeps and not so much god-moding for those freeps with their perfect li's.

Originally Posted by Malindruel

Would your creeps like to get rid of their range or snare skills??
I dont think so.
If you cant beat a freep then train more
Either way learn to play your class

<--- freeps have 5 range dps classes..+ range cc ROFL

And btw



Who clearly has no idea of Creep pvp

They would need to give us a viable alternative. Those of us freeps who dont exploit every little advantage our class has, would be extremely gimped by removing LIs and making us use, say, crafted weapons.


p.s. gg captains

I think a few people underestimate the power of LI's. I think the power of crit multipliers is being underestimated as well the difference CD reducers make. I think taking LI's away would be to much and is why I said earlier they would have to buff normal weapons for freeps.

I'm sure someone has done a comparison or can find some numbers showing the DPS increase. Honestly just go look at your LI's. Notice most main skills have a damage increase.

As always I'm against large buffs to creeps. All this does is increase DPS making PvP faster and in turn more of a zerg. Its a simple short term answer that solves very few problems

LI weapons do not make every class god-moders. A hunter, as it is now, has to be a glass cannon with a LI bow to do any damage at all to certain classes with full audacity, especially when running solo. As it is, I don't wear my pvp gear in order to one shot any creep...And I know how to play my class...An easy moder I am not...

I shot a warg today in the Moors with ISB, BA, and PS; not one shot did above 100 damage while the warg was in Flayer. That same warg was able to cc me two times and defeat me in less than 10 seconds. I have +7 audacity. SO...The answer is emphatically NO; I wouldn't be willing to give up what little I have in the way of dps or my LI unless there is sufficient compensation or improvements made that actually do equal out the battle field.

Thus far, the only changes to my class by the developers have been a panacea for the easily fooled and appeased pve players. I would gladly trade some dps for MT, and a skirmisher stance like the BAs have. I think we all know that will never happen. I am betting that most freeps would be against giving up LIs in the Moors..

However, I am sure the creeps are not willing to give up anything either and would love nothing more than to see all classes of freeps nerfed and easily defeated in one or two hits. Giving creeps more buffs, especially at higher ranks, is not a viable solution either. I think the only way for the Moors to be fixed is to shut it down and rebuild it from the bottom up...Sadly, Turbine will never be willing to spend that kind of money to fix the Moors.

I do creep on a different server than the one I freep on, and know how tough it can be; especially for us poor bastages that can't afford TP to buy our rank 6 skills when we first roll a creep toon. The cost of audacity is high but easily earned on creepside. While it may be tough for creeps before they get their audacity gear, it is equally as tough for freeps when they first enter the Moors...

Giving up LI gear is another quick appeasement fix and nothing more...Not buying the BS...

Originally Posted by Lagnaf

LI weapons do not make every class god-moders. A hunter, as it is now, has to be a glass cannon with a LI bow to do any damage at all to certain classes with full audacity, especially when running solo. As it is, I don't wear my pvp gear in order to one shot any creep...And I know how to play my class...An easy moder I am not...

I shot a warg today in the Moors with ISB, BA, and PS; not one shot did above 100 damage while the warg was in Flayer. That same warg was able to cc me two times and defeat me in less than 10 seconds. I have +7 audacity. SO...The answer is emphatically NO; I wouldn't be willing to give up what little I have in the way of dps or my LI unless there is sufficient compensation or improvements made that actually do equal out the battle field.

However, I am sure the creeps are not willing to give up anything either and would love nothing more than to see all classes of freeps nerfed and easily defeated in one or two hits. Giving creeps more buffs, especially at higher ranks, is not a viable solution either. I think the only way for the Moors to be fixed is to shut it down and rebuild it from the bottom up...Sadly, Turbine will never be willing to spend that kind of money to fix the Moors.

I do creep on a different server than the one I freep on, and know how tough it can be; especially for us poor bastages that can't afford TP to buy our rank 6 skills when we first roll a creep toon. The cost of audacity is high but easily earned on creepside. While it may be tough for creeps before they get their audacity gear, it is equally as tough for freeps when they first enter the Moors...

Giving up LI gear is another quick appeasement fix and nothing more...Not buying the BS...

Ok, so you have trouble with Flayer Wargs. Most freeps do. But how well does your pew pew work against other classes, say, a weaver? I bet you mow them down pretty well. I bet you are able to take down reavers pretty good too.

And not all creeps want to see a nerf to freeps. Creeps need serious attention to be viable against freeps anymore. Except for flayer, I know. With the exception of flayer, creeps are unpredictable NPCs, easily killed and mowed down.

Originally Posted by Lagnaf

LI weapons do not make every class god-moders. A hunter, as it is now, has to be a glass cannon with a LI bow to do any damage at all to certain classes with full audacity, especially when running solo. As it is, I don't wear my pvp gear in order to one shot any creep...And I know how to play my class...An easy moder I am not...

I shot a warg today in the Moors with ISB, BA, and PS; not one shot did above 100 damage while the warg was in Flayer. That same warg was able to cc me two times and defeat me in less than 10 seconds. I have +7 audacity. SO...The answer is emphatically NO; I wouldn't be willing to give up what little I have in the way of dps or my LI unless there is sufficient compensation or improvements made that actually do equal out the battle field.

Thus far, the only changes to my class by the developers have been a panacea for the easily fooled and appeased pve players. I would gladly trade some dps for MT, and a skirmisher stance like the BAs have. I think we all know that will never happen. I am betting that most freeps would be against giving up LIs in the Moors..

However, I am sure the creeps are not willing to give up anything either and would love nothing more than to see all classes of freeps nerfed and easily defeated in one or two hits. Giving creeps more buffs, especially at higher ranks, is not a viable solution either. I think the only way for the Moors to be fixed is to shut it down and rebuild it from the bottom up...Sadly, Turbine will never be willing to spend that kind of money to fix the Moors.

I do creep on a different server than the one I freep on, and know how tough it can be; especially for us poor bastages that can't afford TP to buy our rank 6 skills when we first roll a creep toon. The cost of audacity is high but easily earned on creepside. While it may be tough for creeps before they get their audacity gear, it is equally as tough for freeps when they first enter the Moors...

Giving up LI gear is another quick appeasement fix and nothing more...Not buying the BS...

1. Complaining about not hitting hard in a Flayer Warg is like a Creeps complaining they cannot hit hard on Block Stance Guards.

2. Please explain the reasoning behind it being equally tough for freeps, who can fully gear themselves without stepping foot into the Moors via Glan Vraig, versus creeps who have to attempt to kill hundreds of norbogs and hobbits while being virtually consta camped by Burt's and hunters stealthed that can 2-3shot them.

3. Why is buffing certain creep classes unviable.

4. I don't think anyone want mirror classes. BAs don't have the dps hunters do but have more survivability. Hunters have fleetness which is there version of skirmisher/on the run combat. They are not the same nor equivalent.

I've wanted legendary items removed from the Ettenmoors since FOREVER. Reason being that it's easier to control the balance if you offer PvP only weapons inside the Ettenmoors at a vendor. It just makes it so that Turbine has complete control over what stats you'll be using to PvP with, PERIOD. You can still have your "BONUS to such and so skill" but it'll be locked on the weapons. Soooo they'd obviously be offering several weapons you can choose from so you can choose the one with the desired bonuses.

Example: Champs would get to choose between 3-4 different 2-H or 1-H's. Still good damage--Still competitive in the Ettenmoors--Just Less OP (and there isn't a thing wrong with that).

Jewellery, Armour, Weapons, etc --- all Ettenmoor items. That's what I've always wanted. 100% control over whether something is OP or not. If a class gets way out of balance, they simply nerf that class's gear just a little bit. Are they hitting too little? Edit their gear to hit harder. They don't have to change anything PvE side! I wouldn't expect them to change classes globally just to benefit PvP. Just make specialized gear that DID ITS job instead of half the job.

I want to sit back and watch PvP fights have to do with who is BETTER at their class than the other guy--not who has the best PvE gear. When do we get to see PvP that requires skill over stats? (in other words, balance the stats so they're in-the-area of close to balanced) *yawns*

There will most likely always be an underpowered and overpowered class (that's just how it's always been it seems). But hopefully this should help to scale it down somewhat.

I'm sure you'll all agree with me that it's pretty tough balancing sides that have completely different classes. So rather than balance the classes, balance the gear. It's amazing what changing a few variables can do. That's all I'm suggesting **though by now you probably already noticed--

============================== ============================== ====================

LI weapons do not make every class god-moders.

Quite true. Quite true indeed. The underpowered ones seem to be underpowered with or without.

Would your creeps like to get rid of their range or snare skills??
I dont think so.

Certainly not the analogy I would have used since neither one of those are the same thing. See you're saying that by getting rid of Legendary Items it'd be like you giving up your Creep skills or traits (I think you might have been looking for traits). Remember LI's didn't exist before Mines of Moria. Taking them away would be like going back to the good old days; Not like taking away someone's skills or traits. Legacies are only improvements for skills, not the skills themselves. Relics, etc, etc are simply stats that go on piece of gear (Except you get to customize them instead of being chosen for you). Removing LI's isn't going to trigger an apocalyptic event in Middle Earth.

They would need to give us a viable alternative. Those of us freeps who dont exploit every little advantage our class has, would be extremely gimped by removing LIs and making us use, say, crafted weapons.

I'm going to quote this just so you guys can see it again. This is so true. For Ettenmoors I'd rather they had them at a vendor though so that Turbine can choose the ones they want used in Ettenmoors in order to control it better. Viable alternatives for PvE would be the ones that crafters should be able to make. Now I've heard the argument that there's already decent alternatives. Directly to the people who think this--Link me some items and let me try them out in instances and stuff I haven't seen anything completely "decent" yet as far as alternatives go.

Also would a crafting tier that is rank gated allowing for higher ranks to have slightly better weapons (freepside battlefield promotions) be a good thing?

Crafting should be for PvE stuff as it's always been. Seems most of the game's focus is on PvE (as far as mechanics go--not gear per say) so it would make more sense to keep it for PvE stuff. That's just my two cents.

On the other hand, they can use buff up certain creep classes to make the game more "fair"...

Both sides need class nerfs and class buffs. Everytime they do this though they mess with the mechanics and end up causing big problems. Not hard to see why I made my suggestion above (read top section of post).

Removing LIs would be awesome, but I'd rather scale creeps to freep level. Although fights would be TOO fast... How about a minus 99% outgoing healing and damage for all freeps in the moors. I think that would work . Oh, and -100% crit chance.

Turbine is trying to prolong fights (Audacity for example) so I think it'd be a better idea to scale Freeps down to Creep level rather than the other way around. It would save the prolong fight goal Turbine is going for a GIANT step. More health + Less damage = longer fights.

Originally Posted by mager555

1. Complaining about not hitting hard in a Flayer Warg is like a Creeps complaining they cannot hit hard on Block Stance Guards.

2. Please explain the reasoning behind it being equally tough for freeps, who can fully gear themselves without stepping foot into the Moors via Glan Vraig, versus creeps who have to attempt to kill hundreds of norbogs and hobbits while being virtually consta camped by Burt's and hunters stealthed that can 2-3shot them.

3. Why is buffing certain creep classes unviable.

4. I don't think anyone want mirror classes. BAs don't have the dps hunters do but have more survivability. Hunters have fleetness which is there version of skirmisher/on the run combat. They are not the same nor equivalent.

Freeps have to earn commendations as well as creeps in order to get audacity armor. They can't just go to Glan Vraig and get their armor thru osmosis or some other creep imagined ability. Commendations only come from pve or pvp; same as for the creeps. Freeps, especially those not fully geared with audacity are constantly ganked, zerged and defeated while trying to get their commendations thru pve, and pvp...and they aren't zerged by freeps...And if you had thoroughly read what I wrote, you would see that I don't trait for one shotting or even three shotting creeps...and there are very few hunters that can do that every single time, especially against a creep with even a few audacity points. Critical hits are a random percentage of shots, and don't happen every time...Get real...

Certain classes at high levels are rarely defeated by my hunter class. I certainly cannot 1v1 a high rank WL, defiler, or warg and hope to win. Even high rank reavers have better mitigations and more hp than a hunter. I could try to get my agility to extremely high levels, but to do so I have to become a glass canon; which simply means I have to forgo my audacity armor and become the squishiest thing in the Moors...

I am not asking for mirrored freeps and creeps. While it is true that BAs don't have the dps of hunters, they have their mt and skirmishers stance which allows them to not take damage for a substantial amount of time and use their bow skills without any induction while in Skirmishers stance.

Hunters, on the other hand, do not have an escape skill like MT, and our improved fleetness stance requires that we have focus that never goes below a certain point. Our desperate flight skill was nerfed long ago and not replaced with a viable skill. At best, hunters can get off a combination of three shots of PS and Blood arrow before having to focus again. To focus again we have to use a skill that requires the hunter to squat in the grass, while vulnerable to creeps, to focus and then get three more shots. Technically, fleetness is a waste time as I don't need it to fire those three shots. Whatever skills we have, the only way for a hunter to defeat a BA with store bought skills in a 1v1 is to line of sight until the MT expires, and still the BA has Skirmishers stance (skills with no induction). All of a hunters bow skills are induction skills with the exception of the three skills that require 3 focus each to use...

I reiterate my opinion that buffing all the creep classes is not viable as it does not create a level playing field. In fact, that would give the creeps an advantage that would make them as op as wargs are now. I will not change my opinion of LI in the Moors no matter how much the creeps qq about being disadvantaged. We will probably never agree on which creep/freep classes are over powered, or overly mitigated with evade skills, self and group heals (such as uruk heal), and extremely high hit points.

Read my original reply to this post again. The only way the Moors will ever be fixed is if the devs restructure LOTRO pvp from the bottom up...and that ain't happening...

Originally Posted by Graycient

I've wanted legendary items removed from the Ettenmoors since FOREVER. Reason being that it's easier to control the balance if you offer PvP only weapons inside the Ettenmoors at a vendor. It just makes it so that Turbine has complete control over what stats you'll be using to PvP with, PERIOD. You can still have your "BONUS to such and so skill" but it'll be locked on the weapons. Soooo they'd obviously be offering several weapons you can choose from so you can choose the one with the desired bonuses.

Example: Champs would get to choose between 3-4 different 2-H or 1-H's. Still good damage--Still competitive in the Ettenmoors--Just Less OP (and there isn't a thing wrong with that).

Jewellery, Armour, Weapons, etc --- all Ettenmoor items. That's what I've always wanted. 100% control over whether something is OP or not. If a class gets way out of balance, they simply nerf that class's gear just a little bit. Are they hitting too little? Edit their gear to hit harder. They don't have to change anything PvE side! I wouldn't expect them to change classes globally just to benefit PvP. Just make specialized gear that DID ITS job instead of half the job.

I want to sit back and watch PvP fights have to do with who is BETTER at their class than the other guy--not who has the best PvE gear. When do we get to see PvP that requires skill over stats? (in other words, balance the stats so they're in-the-area of close to balanced) *yawns*

There will most likely always be an underpowered and overpowered class (that's just how it's always been it seems). But hopefully this should help to scale it down somewhat.

I'm sure you'll all agree with me that it's pretty tough balancing sides that have completely different classes. So rather than balance the classes, balance the gear. It's amazing what changing a few variables can do. That's all I'm suggesting **though by now you probably already noticed--

============================== ============================== ====================

Quite true. Quite true indeed. The underpowered ones seem to be underpowered with or without.



Certainly not the analogy I would have used since neither one of those are the same thing. See you're saying that by getting rid of Legendary Items it'd be like you giving up your Creep skills or traits (I think you might have been looking for traits). Remember LI's didn't exist before Mines of Moria. Taking them away would be like going back to the good old days; Not like taking away someone's skills or traits. Legacies are only improvements for skills, not the skills themselves. Relics, etc, etc are simply stats that go on piece of gear (Except you get to customize them instead of being chosen for you). Removing LI's isn't going to trigger an apocalyptic event in Middle Earth.



I'm going to quote this just so you guys can see it again. This is so true. For Ettenmoors I'd rather they had them at a vendor though so that Turbine can choose the ones they want used in Ettenmoors in order to control it better. Viable alternatives for PvE would be the ones that crafters should be able to make. Now I've heard the argument that there's already decent alternatives. Directly to the people who think this--Link me some items and let me try them out in instances and stuff I haven't seen anything completely "decent" yet as far as alternatives go.



Crafting should be for PvE stuff as it's always been. Seems most of the game's focus is on PvE (as far as mechanics go--not gear per say) so it would make more sense to keep it for PvE stuff. That's just my two cents.



Both sides need class nerfs and class buffs. Everytime they do this though they mess with the mechanics and end up causing big problems. Not hard to see why I made my suggestion above (read top section of post).



Turbine is trying to prolong fights (Audacity for example) so I think it'd be a better idea to scale Freeps down to Creep level rather than the other way around. It would save the prolong fight goal Turbine is going for a GIANT step. More health + Less damage = longer fights.

Lol yeah thats what I meant. Typo sorry lol. Oh, and my post wasnt serious xD, but yeah I agree with everything you said.

Not removing but rather creating special LIs (with a different tab) for Ettens and placing a heavy debuff on normal weapons during Etten play (50% less damage).

You would get a starting LI for free and then would be able to improve your weapon with comms.

Originally Posted by Murtanion

Please, tell me how I can beat a minstrel on my reaver.

I can't wait to hear this.

Afk minny

Originally Posted by MordecaiKell

Not removing but rather creating special LIs (with a different tab) for Ettens and placing a heavy debuff on normal weapons during Etten play (50% less damage).

You would get a starting LI for free and then would be able to improve your weapon with comms.

wouldn't giving a general buff to creeps do the same thing? im not talking just dps, im talking defenses, mitigation's, heals, and add more to battle promotions etc, seems that would be easier to code in and everything. To those who would cry and complain about creeps getting buffed need to step away from LOTRO and get a breath of the real world, same with creeps QQing about freeps, from what ive seen on my server even with the QQ the good players adapt and give positive criticism about pvmp, yelling to devs and GM about it is not doing anything but making you look like a spoiled rich child.

Originally Posted by Nerglor

wouldn't giving a general buff to creeps do the same thing? im not talking just dps, im talking defenses, mitigation's, heals, and add more to battle promotions etc, seems that would be easier to code in and everything.

The intend of the change would be to further separate PVP from PVE.

The audacity addition reduces the dependency on PVE in order to PVP. It is debatable what is better, but in my personal opionon PVP and PVP should be separated as much as possible while keeping the class feeling.

If we agree that separating PVP from PVE then Turbine should also separate LIs between PVP and PVE.

LI has a high impact on gameplay in many aspects.
DPS is the most evident example (a 1st age is doing more than 30% more damage than a 3rd age, or something similar), but there are also other impacts.
For example champion bubble (sudden defense) is modified from 3 minutes (if memory serves me well) to 1 minute via LI and it has a big impact in PVP. Or minstrel Chord of Salvation that can be reduced from 15 seconds to 5 seconds, it has a marginal benefit in PVE but has a big impact in PVP.

By having special LIs for PVP then we would get following benefits:
- Rewards only from PVP (you do no need to do a PVE raid to perform in PVP). Same benefits as PVP armour.
- Balance improvement. Legacies would be desgined with PVP in mind and therefore there would not be as much imbalance caused by PVE legacies.
- Possible to have less stat/gear disparity between fully geared and new player. In PVE the idea of having big benefits given by gear serves the purpose of forcing to repeat content in order to be able to comepte more difficult one. In PVP gear benefit should be lower in order that a more skilled PVPer could win against a more geared one. Having full PVP gear allows to narrow the gap.

Finally these would not fully solve the current "godlike classes" problem that is caused because some classes defenses (with full audacity) are very high while having also big self heals. This could be solved by giving a full blanket healing reduction in PVP (other games do it).

Originally Posted by Murtanion

Please, tell me how I can beat a minstrel on my reaver.

I can't wait to hear this.

level 5 mini (not tested though, so not too sure)

Originally Posted by MordecaiKell

The intend of the change would be to further separate PVP from PVE.

The audacity addition reduces the dependency on PVE in order to PVP. It is debatable what is better, but in my personal opionon PVP and PVP should be separated as much as possible while keeping the class feeling.

If we agree that separating PVP from PVE then Turbine should also separate LIs between PVP and PVE.

LI has a high impact on gameplay in many aspects.
DPS is the most evident example (a 1st age is doing more than 30% more damage than a 3rd age, or something similar), but there are also other impacts.
For example champion bubble (sudden defense) is modified from 3 minutes (if memory serves me well) to 1 minute via LI and it has a big impact in PVP. Or minstrel Chord of Salvation that can be reduced from 15 seconds to 5 seconds, it has a marginal benefit in PVE but has a big impact in PVP.

By having special LIs for PVP then we would get following benefits:
- Rewards only from PVP (you do no need to do a PVE raid to perform in PVP). Same benefits as PVP armour.
- Balance improvement. Legacies would be desgined with PVP in mind and therefore there would not be as much imbalance caused by PVE legacies.
- Possible to have less stat/gear disparity between fully geared and new player. In PVE the idea of having big benefits given by gear serves the purpose of forcing to repeat content in order to be able to comepte more difficult one. In PVP gear benefit should be lower in order that a more skilled PVPer could win against a more geared one. Having full PVP gear allows to narrow the gap.

Finally these would not fully solve the current "godlike classes" problem that is caused because some classes defenses (with full audacity) are very high while having also big self heals. This could be solved by giving a full blanket healing reduction in PVP (other games do it).

maybe I am thinking to simple, but with RoR coming with new updates to monster play *hopefully* increasing creeps heals, defense, and damage you could get around the legacies. Make battle promotions greater to help with the no cap stats of freeps. Speaking of RoR they are making it so freeps who dont raid (like myself) can still get gear that is not to far away from the full raid gear. The pvp only gear would make a difference (good or bad i cant choose one). To the godlike classes they are suppost to to have higher defenses, and the only class i can think of with high defenses and heals is warden, and well....ya important in pve and hard to deal with in pvp, but there is a way to counteract it

Originally Posted by Nerglor

maybe I am thinking to simple, but with RoR coming with new updates to monster play *hopefully* increasing creeps heals, defense, and damage you could get around the legacies. Make battle promotions greater to help with the no cap stats of freeps. Speaking of RoR they are making it so freeps who dont raid (like myself) can still get gear that is not to far away from the full raid gear. The pvp only gear would make a difference (good or bad i cant choose one). To the godlike classes they are suppost to to have higher defenses, and the only class i can think of with high defenses and heals is warden, and well....ya important in pve and hard to deal with in pvp, but there is a way to counteract it

You cannot "get around the legacies" mainly because they are designed with PVE in mind, thus they will be hardly balanced for PVP.

Still the key reason to create special legendaries is to place the "stational" system in PVP instead than in PVE. As it is done now, legendary weapons are reset with new expansion (you can only get third ages), then with first raid (it will come in a separate date than expansion) you can farm for second ages, and in the next raid you can fram for first ages. Since DPS/defense ratio is balanced (somewhat) during the expansion creation but not on each update, the best geared freeps will grow each time stronger.

About the "godlike" classes, any fully geared (with 7 audacity) and capped tactical mitigation is strong on mitigation. Try to kill a high audacity minstrel and you can see how strong audacity is.

Originally Posted by MordecaiKell

You cannot "get around the legacies" mainly because they are designed with PVE in mind, thus they will be hardly balanced for PVP.

Still the key reason to create special legendaries is to place the "stational" system in PVP instead than in PVE. As it is done now, legendary weapons are reset with new expansion (you can only get third ages), then with first raid (it will come in a separate date than expansion) you can farm for second ages, and in the next raid you can fram for first ages. Since DPS/defense ratio is balanced (somewhat) during the expansion creation but not on each update, the best geared freeps will grow each time stronger.

About the "godlike" classes, any fully geared (with 7 audacity) and capped tactical mitigation is strong on mitigation. Try to kill a high audacity minstrel and you can see how strong audacity is.

ive seen people go into moors without legacies, still kill creeps like its nothing, some things will get better for creeps like that bubble CD on champs, but it wont have a huge effect. Minis dont have strong defences, healing IS our defence

this will not do anything and it is quite useless.

the problem is not freeps really it is turbine neglecting proper updates to creep side(after Isen came out poof &&&& hit the fan).

maybe(and that's a big maybe) they get something done with Rohan, but I highly doubt it.

Removing LIs from PvMP

cba to read the whole thread, but no.
Give creeps LIs, revamp the trait system, separate the corruptions into groups and allow mastery boosts and/or mitigations to be slotted to them.

There you have an IXP grind & the possible introduction to small a creep quest-chain system, allow freep deaths to give IXP too.
You can't moan about PvE either, as it's already here

Originally Posted by gageithman

They would need to give us a viable alternative. Those of us freeps who dont exploit every little advantage our class has, would be extremely gimped by removing LIs and making us use, say, crafted weapons.


p.s. gg captains

How about not gimping crafted weapons and armor? That would help in main game as well as the Moors.

I hear people talking about how much work it is to get the Raid gear - and it is. But if you're not a Raider you're more or less stuck with really second rate equipment. Considering it already takes a Sigil and a Pattern (of whatever form) to make each piece, it's not like the world will get flooded with decent crafted gear.

But this probably a subject for General discussion, not just PvMP.

I would be all for this, but there are bound to be a few probs for each class.

Take my warden as an example, most of his legacies wouldn't be too badly missed, 10% damage here, small cool down reduction there. However some things would fundamentally alter everything about his gameplay. Most glaringly legacies such as: ambush induction reduction, without a legacy it is a 5 second induction, whilst with it becomes 2 seconds maxed. Now without an LI the skill becomes virtually useless unless used from stealth (a stealth incidentally which will be much shorter again with no legacy).

So one of the key elements on warden pvp is compromised without LIs. Other things like range increase for javelins (always been a key one to make any sort of ranged combat viable, especially since the assailment changes), reduced miss chance while moving and our slow duration are all basically used solely for pvp.

Now wardens have pretty terrible legacies compared to other classes by and large, but for pvp we are pretty much utterly reliant on those mentioned above to be viable and actually have fun out in pvp land.
So yes remove LIs from the moors (rank gated weapons would be so much better). BUT don't do it without thought for class impact. Taking warden as an example, simply increase our passive javelin range in the moors, along with a passive slow duration and an induction reduction on ambush (and a duration buff on careful step). The damage and healing buffs I can live without.

Originally Posted by Bels_illuminati

, simply increase our passive javelin range in the moors, along with a passive slow duration and an induction reduction on ambush (and a duration buff on careful step). The damage and healing buffs I can live without.

thats the thing, they dont want you to live xD

- concerning people saying they should just give creeps LIs, you clearly have not been playing very long if you believe Turbine would put that much depth into creeps. If that was ever the intention then when LIs were introduced freepside it would have happened creepside as well or soon after.

- for classes worried they cannot be effective without a select few of the available legacies, my original thought included PvP weapons gained through comms. These could easily include 1 or 2 old legacies on the weapon. Higher ranked freeps can buy higher ranked weapons that have stronger ranks of the legacies. This would especially benefit the captain ministrel and warden I believe.