Thread: Save Laketown! Huzzah for the Lonely Mountain!

This is a longer-term development goal: if you can, make the next expansion NOT Gondor, but instead North Mirkwood/Laketown/Lonely Mountain. This region was noted in the books as undergoing siege at the same time as Rivendell, Edoras, Minas Tirith, Bree, the Shire, and other places. Why not vector the players up there - where they're probably more needed than in Gondor - before making the content that leads folks down to Mordor?

Originally Posted by Dreamelf

This is a longer-term development goal: if you can, make the next expansion NOT Gondor, but instead North Mirkwood/Laketown/Lonely Mountain. This region was noted in the books as undergoing siege at the same time as Rivendell, Edoras, Minas Tirith, Bree, the Shire, and other places. Why not vector the players up there - where they're probably more needed than in Gondor - before making the content that leads folks down to Mordor?

i agree that this is what we should do...make the journey to mordor longer and more enjoyable! instead of quick and missing out on what could be amazing content

Fully agree ... I think it would be great to do:

Riders of Rohan
The Lands of Dale (Lonely Mountain, Dale, Northern Mirkwood, Gladden Fields) - This would be a massive expansion.
March of the Dwarves - Iron Hills, Ered Mithrin, Northern Rhun
Privateers of Belfalas - LOTRO expansion with Ship Combat (yes I can dream) - Belfalas, White Mountains, Southern Gondor
Spires of Gondor - Northern Gondor, Minas Tirith, Osgiliath
The Reach of Mordor - Wilderland, Dagorlad, Southern Rhun
Assault from the South - Harad, The Corsairs, Far Harad
Gates of Mordor - Mordor, Desert of Khand, Ash Mountains

Just my 2 cents.

/signed

Going from Rohan to Dale and Erebor would result in a similar 'jump' as going from Gap of Rohan to Thinglad, but my desire to see these place overcomes the slight discomfort of such 'quick travel'.
It would also fit, considering that we've gone all over the place in order to help in the War. Why would we leave the Dalefolk to fend for themselves?

Besides, we can't have seen all there is to Mirkwood. Not to mention Carrock and Rhosgobel and Beorn... the Old Forest Road... Thranduil and his court... *dreams*

With the Hobbit movie coming out it is time for us to visit and get Kindred with the Iron Hill Dwarves, and the Lonely Mountain. Open thees areas up.

I believe they've already sold their license of The Hobbit? If so, it's unlikely.

Originally Posted by BirdofHermes

I believe they've already sold their license of The Hobbit? If so, it's unlikely.

But the battles going on in the north of Mirkwood/Lonely Mountain/Dale were mentioned in the Lotr books so it is very possible to make it happen in game.

Back on topic, why would we randomly help the elves surprise assault on a less prepared Dol Guldur but not help the elves of Northern Mirkwood fight off huge armies of goblins and other horrors from the North?

My elves want to go home.

From Appendix B of Return of the King:
"in the North also there had been war and evil. The realm of Thranduil was invaded, and there was long battle under the trees and great ruin of fire;........
"At the same time as great armies besieged Minas Tirith a host of the allies of Sauron that had long threatened the borders of king Brand crossed the River Carnen, and Brand was driven back to Dale."

make it happen

/signed

A great /sign as the Lonely mountain.

This idea was in my head, too, before, but, I was lazy. I am glad that you saved me from righting, thank you.
A connecting idea: For legendary items, there are titles, like Númenórean Uruk-slayer, and Elven Shadow-master. Lothlórien and the Dunedains are in already, but the greatest remaining dwarven kingdom, Erebor lacks. With it, legendary titles should arrive, like, Dwarven Orc-bane, and things like that.

I can see it now!!!
Update 10: Enemies of Erebor (I'm picturing a filler like Shades of the past somewhere)
Thranduil's Dwellings: Explore the mysterious northern reaches of Mirkwood and help the Wood-elves drive the orcs from their sacred homes.
Shores of Esgaroth: Behold the corpse of the mighty Smaug, rotting in the depths of Long-Lake. Visit the people of the new Lake-Town and convince them to aid the Men of Dale in their coming battles.
Valley of the Mountain: Visit the legendary valley of Dale, restored to its' former after the defeat of Smaug. Aid the people of Dale as they prepare to hold back hordes of Easterlings.
The Glorious Halls: See the grand halls of Dain, kinsman of the iconic Thorin Oakenshield. Witness the Dwarves craft weapons and armour for the coming war, and help the Council of Elves, Dwarves and Men make a coherent plan of war, rather than squabble amongst themselves.
The Woodsman's Hall: See the famous house of Beorn, and be waited on by the animal servants of his Son. (or grandson? I forget) Help prepare for The Feast of the Free People's, the Last celebration before the Clouds of War devour all.

Wishful thinking, but one can always dream >.<

Originally Posted by Brandybardard

But the battles going on in the north of Mirkwood/Lonely Mountain/Dale were mentioned in the Lotr books so it is very possible to make it happen in game.

Would people be satisfied with a Northern Mirkwood expansion that did not include Erebor/Lakeland/Gladden Fields, though? Or a Lakeland/Gladden/Erebor that was noticeably devoid of major features from The Hobbit?

You could probably get away with a Northern Mirkwood expansion since that was mentioned in LOTR, but once you went outside there, there's a whole lot that people would expect to see that you absolutely could not shoehorn in under a LOTR-only, non-Hobbit license.

Originally Posted by droid

Would people be satisfied with a Northern Mirkwood expansion that did not include Erebor/Lakeland/Gladden Fields, though? Or a Lakeland/Gladden/Erebor that was noticeably devoid of major features from The Hobbit?

You could probably get away with a Northern Mirkwood expansion since that was mentioned in LOTR, but once you went outside there, there's a whole lot that people would expect to see that you absolutely could not shoehorn in under a LOTR-only, non-Hobbit license.

I thought we established that Tolkein does mention that there is a battle in Dale/Erebor in LOTR? And thats not the only time he mentions Dale. There is a pretty nice description in The Council of Elrond (or maybe Many Meetings?) of Dale and The Lonely Mountain by Gloin. So I think turbine most certainly have licence for it

/signed 100%

I gladly pledge my service to the armies of Thranduil and Celeborn in the defense of our lands against the Shadow!

Originally Posted by Geindir

I thought we established that Tolkein does mention that there is a battle in Dale/Erebor in LOTR? And thats not the only time he mentions Dale. There is a pretty nice description in The Council of Elrond (or maybe Many Meetings?) of Dale and The Lonely Mountain by Gloin. So I think turbine most certainly have licence for it

The area itself, yes. But what I meant was, would you be satisfied if they put in these zones while completely ignoring the details from The Hobbit they would not be able to include? Just because LOTR mentions the areas themselves in passing, doesnt mean they get full license to everything that has anything to do with those areas.

As the license is generally understood right now (without more details from Turbine Legal), they could put in Lonely Mountain and Dale, but it would have no trace or mention of Smaug, the 12 Dwarves from the Hobbit, the Battle of Five Armies, or anything else having to do with the people and events of The Hobbit, unless they also were specifically mentioned in LOTR.

And, likely, once they did put out such an expansion, they would never be able to really go back and retro-con it to include The Hobbit stuff, should they get the license back in the future. Once its done, its basically done.

They could even put a set of Book chapter type instances which lets you play as Bilbo Baggins in the past, as he traveled to the lonely mountain, entered into Smaugs lair and witnessed the battle of the Five armies.

This would be great addition if they managed to release it by December 2013, for the second part of "THE HOBBIT" movie.

Really, it makes sense that they should be able to use stuff from the Hobbit. As long as they don't directly copy from the movie, it should work. And, if worse comes to worse, they can get a license to use what was written in the Hobbit book. /signed, btw

Originally Posted by droid

The area itself, yes. But what I meant was, would you be satisfied if they put in these zones while completely ignoring the details from The Hobbit they would not be able to include? Just because LOTR mentions the areas themselves in passing, doesnt mean they get full license to everything that has anything to do with those areas.

As the license is generally understood right now (without more details from Turbine Legal), they could put in Lonely Mountain and Dale, but it would have no trace or mention of Smaug, the 12 Dwarves from the Hobbit, the Battle of Five Armies, or anything else having to do with the people and events of The Hobbit, unless they also were specifically mentioned in LOTR.

And, likely, once they did put out such an expansion, they would never be able to really go back and retro-con it to include The Hobbit stuff, should they get the license back in the future. Once its done, its basically done.

I ould be perfactly happy without any mention of what took place in the Hobbit, but you may have forgotten there is already alot eluded to of that book and Smaug is even mentioned by name by the dragon Draigoch in the raid not to mention Goblin Town and the quests from Bilbo on finding his missing buttons and other areas in the place he passed through that is never mentioned in the book The Lord of the Rings. I would not put it passed Turbine to give us other quests that allow us to revisit bits from that book if they give us these expantions. And I also think we need to stop assuming that Turbine does or does not have the licensing for the hobbit as it is not needed for theses areas that are mentions multiple times in the Lord of the Rings.

And /signed again

Originally Posted by Geindir

I thought we established that Tolkein does mention that there is a battle in Dale/Erebor in LOTR? And thats not the only time he mentions Dale. There is a pretty nice description in The Council of Elrond (or maybe Many Meetings?) of Dale and The Lonely Mountain by Gloin. So I think turbine most certainly have licence for it

The problem is that virtually all of the detail about that region of Middle-earth is provided in The Hobbit, and they no longer have that license. People are going to see the films (or read the books) and come to the game expecting all of this detail - and won't get it. They cannot even call "Lake-town" by that name, because it's never mentioned with that name in their licensed text.

If they ever go north, they really need to get that license back - only I'll bet it'll be quite a bit more expensive than when they had it before due to the timing of the films: its popularity will be high.

Khafar

Originally Posted by Jewl_of_the_lake

I ould be perfactly happy without any mention of what took place in the Hobbit, but you may have forgotten there is already alot eluded to of that book and Smaug is even mentioned by name by the dragon Draigoch in the raid not to mention Goblin Town and the quests from Bilbo on finding his missing buttons and other areas in the place he passed through that is never mentioned in the book The Lord of the Rings. I would not put it passed Turbine to give us other quests that allow us to revisit bits from that book if they give us these expantions. And I also think we need to stop assuming that Turbine does or does not have the licensing for the hobbit as it is not needed for theses areas that are mentions multiple times in the Lord of the Rings.

As others have observed, the implication of the lack of license for The Hobbit means that now when they're doing something new (as opposed to old content like Goblin-town, from when they did have the license) they can't include anything that's isn't specifically mentioned in LOTR as well. That'd mean no Lake-town, for example. No having Smaug's skeleton as a PoI. No Dwarves of the Iron Hills either, I think. They couldn't put in the usual little references, like (say) the passage up to the blocked secret entrance into the Lonely Mountain. They couldn't have Thranduil's halls be like they were in the book. They could include Grimbeorn the Old but strictly speaking, they couldn't even have him turning into a bear since there's no mention of skin-changing in LOTR.

So I would put it past them, because it'd be unsatisfying.

Originally Posted by Jewl_of_the_lake

...not to mention Goblin Town and the quests from Bilbo on finding his missing buttons and other areas in the place he passed through that is never mentioned in the book The Lord of the Rings. I would not put it passed Turbine to give us other quests that allow us to revisit bits from that book if they give us these expantions. And I also think we need to stop assuming that Turbine does or does not have the licensing for the hobbit as it is not needed for theses areas that are mentions multiple times in the Lord of the Rings.

To clarify things, for those who may be newer to this particular recurring discussion....

Turbine used to have the rights for The Hobbit material, back when the MM expansion came out. Hence why we have Goblin-town and all the overtly Hobbit stuff in that region.

Since that time, Turbine let their license for The Hobbit expire, which is something a blue name has expressly stated in the past, and I'll just ask you to take my word on that or Search-fu it yourself. The current licensee for those online gaming rights is Warner Bros., of which Turbine is a subsidiary studio.

However, that doesnt mean Turbine has full access to the Warner Bros. library of IPs....WB would have to specifically grant those rights to Turbine, and its unclear if WB wants to add on The Hobbit to LOTRO, which for an MMO is getting pretty long in the tooth, or if they want to extend the license to another of their studios to produce a different, standalone game when the movies come out.

Turbine can use any material as its described in LOTR and the Appendices. No Hobbit, no Silmarillion. And there definitely isnt enough in LOTR alone to do proper justice to Northern Rhovanion, and give people what they'll be expecting when you announce a Northern Mirkwood/Dale/Erebor expansion.

They do push the line somewhat at times, but only so far as they think SZC won't really care enough to do anything about it. Basing an entire expansion on, basically, The Hobbit, when that particular IP is about to get very lucrative and popular, will definitely send SZC into full lawsuit mode and probably end up in WB just shutting down the whole game to avoid the hassle.

Turbine will probably try to create as much content as possible and adding areas like this would make perfect sense, if they need to get the licence for it so be it, they are charging us enough for expansions at the moment that they should have a few quid spare for that, and at the end of the day the more expansions they produce the more money they can get for the sale of said expansions. If they don't at least consider looking at these areas then they will miss out on a lot of extra cash, and I don't remember Turbine being quick to turn down a little extra cash up till now. Still I would love to see as many areas opened up as is possible, the more the merrier.

I don't read the OP saying I WANT A HOBBIT EXPANSION, but there are battles in the north that are mentioned multiple times in the books of The Lord of the Rings, and i myself don't want a Hobbit expansion, why would i want to do quests that took place 50+ years prior as a session play as i am sure that would be how they would work it. Thranduil's halls are described very little in the books other than being built similar to Mengroth of old, and in the Council of Elrond places are decribed and int he appendix the battles are described. How would having a current time northern Mirk/Esgroth (does not need to be named Lake-Town)area not fall in to current licensing for the books?

To be honest, a lot of things are mentioned in LotRO - Esgaroth is named (Lake-town was just a nickname), Smaug is named, lots of the people from 'The Hobbit' are named and their fates discussed. The landscapes may be artistic improvizations, but its same of LotRO not using faces/visuals from LotR movie trilogy.

From Bilbos birthday party speech:

It is also, if I may be allowed to refer to ancient history, the anniversary of
my arrival by barrel at Esgaroth on the Long Lake;

from Gendalf and Frodo talking about matters of Ring:

'That is a sample of his talk. I don't suppose you want any more. I had weary
days of it. But from hints dropped among the snarls I even gathered that his
padding feet had taken him at last to Esgaroth, and even to the streets of Dale,
listening secretly and peering. Well, the news of the great events went far and
wide in Wilderland, and many had heard Bilbo's name and knew where he came from.
We had made no secret of our return journey to his home in the West. Gollum's
sharp ears would soon learn what he wanted.'

From Gimli at the council of Elrond:

...Glóin had much to tell of events in the northern
regions of Wilderland. Frodo learned that Grimbeorn the Old, son of Beorn, was
now the lord of many sturdy men, and to their land between the Mountains and
Mirkwood neither orc nor wolf dared to go.
'lndeed,' said Glóin, `if it were not for the Beornings, the passage from Dale
to Rivendell would long ago have become impossible. They are valiant men and
keep open the High Pass and the Ford of Carrock. But their tolls are high,' he
added with a shake of his head; `and like Beorn of old they are not over fond of
dwarves. Still, they are trusty, and that is much in these days. Nowhere are
there any men so friendly to us as the Men of Dale. They are good folk, the
Bardings. The grandson of Bard the Bowman rules them, Brand son of Bain son of
Bard. He is a strong king, and his realm now reaches far south and east of
Esgaroth.'
'And what of your own people?' asked Frodo.
`There is much to tell, good and bad,' said Glóin; 'yet it is mostly good: we
have so far been fortunate, though we do not escape the shadow of these times.
If you really wish to hear of us, I will tell you tidings gladly. But stop me
when you are weary! Dwarves' tongues run on when speaking of their handiwork,
they say.'
And with that Glóin embarked on a long account of the doings of the
Dwarf-kingdom. He was delighted to have found so polite a listener; for Frodo
showed no sign of weariness and made no attempt to change the subject, though
actually he soon got rather lost among the strange names of people and places
that he had never heard of before. He was interested, however, to hear that Dįin
was still King under the Mountain, and was now old (having passed his two
hundred and fiftieth year), venerable, and fabulously rich. Of the ten
companions who had survived the Battle of Five Armies seven were still with him:
Dwalin, Glóin, Dori, Nori, Bifur, Bofur, and Bombur. Bombur was now so fat that
he could not move himself from his couch to his chair at table, and it took six
young dwarves to lift him.
'And what has become of Balin and Ori and Óin?' asked Frodo.
A shadow passed over Glóin's face. `We do not know,' he answered. 'It is largely
on account of Balin that I have come to ask the advice of those that dwell in
Rivendell. But tonight let us speak of merrier things!'
Glóin began then to talk of the works of his people, telling Frodo about their
great labours in Dale and under the Mountain. 'We have done well,' he said. `But
in metalwork we cannot rival our fathers, many of whose. secrets are lost. We
make good armour and keen swords, but we cannot again make mail or blade to
match those that were made before the dragon came. Only in mining and building
have we surpassed the old days. You should see the waterways of Dale, Frodo, and
the fountains, and the pools! You should see the stone-paved roads of many
colours! And the halls and cavernous streets under the earth with arches carved
like trees; and the terraces and towers upon the Mountain's sides! Then you
would see that we have not been idle.'
'I will come and see them, if ever I can,' said Frodo. 'How surprised Bilbo
would have been to see all the changes in the Desolation of Smaug!'

In Bilbo departing to the West:

To Sam he gave a little bag of gold. 'Almost the last drop of the Smaug
vintage,' he said. 'May come in useful, if you think of getting married, Sam.'
Sam blushed.

And there is a quite lot of the description in "Appendice A, part III - DURIN'S FOLK", too much to be reposted there.

Aye they could do more if they wished but I foresee a 3 year plunge onto Mordor ... then LOTRO will become the old back seat game to a new shiny LOTRO-sort of MMO. Unless they dramatically update their engine within the next few years to show they want to game to stay updated; this is the logical path they will take.

Originally Posted by Hatter_of_Bree

To be honest, a lot of things are mentioned in LotRO - Esgaroth is named (Lake-town was just a nickname), Smaug is named, lots of the people from 'The Hobbit' are named and their fates discussed.

The problem is that a mere mention doesn't somehow grandfather in all of the detail supplied by non-licensed sources, and the LotR Appendices are a special case: Turbine can use material that's in the Appendices if it's also​ inthe main text, or material that's only in the Appendices (and nowhere else). What they cannot do is use material that's in the Appendices and non-licensed materials, but not in the main text of The Lord of the Rings. At least that's how Berephon explained it 5 years ago. It's not straight-forward at all, and the stuff you've quoted is thin gruel to create an entire region from.

If they're ever going to try and do Erebor, Lake-town, Beornings, etc... they really, really need to re-acquire the license for The Hobbit.

Khafar

Originally Posted by Hatter_of_Bree

To be honest, a lot of things are mentioned in LotRO - Esgaroth is named (Lake-town was just a nickname), Smaug is named, lots of the people from 'The Hobbit' are named and their fates discussed. The landscapes may be artistic improvizations, but its same of LotRO not using faces/visuals from LotR movie trilogy.

It's not as easy as that. Mention of Smaug doesn't mean that Smaug's bones can be shown in the lake, as described in The Hobbit. Mention of Esgaroth doesn't mean that they could show the ruins of Lake-town as described in The Hobbit. (And the new Esgaroth had, if I remember rightly, been rebuilt on land as they no longer had to worry about the dragon). Mention of Grimbeorn doesn't mean that they could include details of Beorn's hall (i.e. they couldn't make it look like Tolkien's own drawing of the interior) nor include the animals, bees etc. that Beorn had. Thranduil's halls are underground (like Menegroth in the Sil) but they would not be allowed to include that detail as of course the Sil is out of bounds, too, implying that if those halls were featured at all then they'd have to be above ground!

We do at least have some details of the rebuilt Dale and and the exterior of Erebor in LOTR, as you rightly pointed out, but that's of little comfort when compared to how much appears to be out of bounds.

Do you see the problem? The game thrives on including those little details, but there the implication is they would simply not be allowed to. The result would be relatively dissatisfying. One thing they would normally do that they wouldn't be allowed to would be session play to show past events round there, and I imagine that lack would be keenly felt.