Thread: lame

Originally Posted by loki84

lets not derail, ok so, dps on rk's vs champs GO!!! (again lol)

*WOOOO WOOOOO*
*Brings the Thread-Train back on track*

The RK DPS vs. Champ DPS might be a moot point in 3 months... from what I've seen, mounted combat is COMPLETELY different from what we've been doing since 2007. I'm not sure if any MMO is doing combat this way. RoR MIGHT be a MMO killer.

Sorry, I cannot do that! It would seem neither can you, otherwise you would have simply stopped replying to me. So here we go again.

Since when does quantity ensure a correct answer? One example is this thread.

If you could point me in the direction where my math is incorrect, so we can settle it. If you cannot do that, then I will assume you are wrong and I am right, the most important part about any conversation.

In percentage math you cannot additively or substractively find a correct answer as you have attempted to do. I will take another example if you can muster the courage to read further.

3 Targets, 2 telling marks (on 2 of 3 targets), the RK has one aoe that does 100 dmg per attack.

So you fire of your attack hit 3 targets.
First target will be by 100
Second target will be hit by 100 * 10% (or 1,1 due to telling mark), so 110 total dmg done.
Third target will be hit by 100 * 10%, so 110 total dmg.
This all adds up to 320 (100+110+110)
If you had no telling marks what so ever this number would be 300 (100+100+100)

So we now have a result where without buffs you do 300 dmg per attack and 320 per attack with buffs (telling mark).
This would in percentage equal a 6,66% dmg increase from 2 telling marks by hitting 3 targets with one attack.
(320/300)=1,066666667

Now show me where my math went wrong here?

Nokors maths is correct.

Others trying to do a similar equation but using the wrong process. In this case the numbers are not "powered" as you are trying to do. Nokor states that the number is 10% per mob but the percentage throughout is the same +10% on each mob is an overal 10% increase where as other people saying +10% damage to mob A, +10% damage to mob B and +10% damage to mob C = 30%. The maths on this is flawed as the incremental increase does not differentiate between parties.

Its +10% damage over all, not 10 powered 3x

Originally Posted by Nokor

Sorry, I cannot do that! It would seem neither can you, otherwise you would have simply stopped replying to me. So here we go again.

Since when does quantity ensure a correct answer? One example is this thread.

If you could point me in the direction where my math is incorrect, so we can settle it. If you cannot do that, then I will assume you are wrong and I am right, the most important part about any conversation.

In percentage math you cannot additively or substractively find a correct answer as you have attempted to do. I will take another example if you can muster the courage to read further.

3 Targets, 2 telling marks (on 2 of 3 targets), the RK has one aoe that does 100 dmg per attack.

So you fire of your attack hit 3 targets.
First target will be by 100
Second target will be hit by 100 * 10% (or 1,1 due to telling mark), so 110 total dmg done.
Third target will be hit by 100 * 10%, so 110 total dmg.
This all adds up to 320 (100+110+110)
If you had no telling marks what so ever this number would be 300 (100+100+100)

So we now have a result where without buffs you do 300 dmg per attack and 320 per attack with buffs (telling mark).
This would in percentage equal a 6,66% dmg increase from 2 telling marks by hitting 3 targets with one attack.
(320/300)=1,066666667

Now show me where my math went wrong here?

Nokor has the correct treatment of the problem.

The only way to generate a "30% DPS increase" is to say to total extra damage done through debuffs is 30, which is an increase on 30% on the basic attack of 100 on a single target. This uses a bad assumption as it is only true if all extra damage is done to the same target, which is clearly not the case.

Without going into deep detail about which attacks hit what, the only thing you can do to look at single target DPS from a AOE rotation is find DPSPT (damage per second per target), but this isn't particularly useful given it will underestimate your single target DPS of your main target, by spreading your single target attacks across multiple targets.

Originally Posted by loki84

so i was talkin with chily, prolly the best champ on our server (brandywine) and he told me he parses 200k damage against a training dummy in galtrev, he asked for a parse against malarick, a fairly good rk on our server with top gear and a large moors rep, and malarick got 80k. The parses were for a minute. chily said rk's weren't proper dps anymore..... i gotta say, if this is true he may have a point.

Umm 200k dmg in 1 minute means 3.3k dps which is outright impossible without buffs and marks and stuff. Champs do do a lot of dps, 2k parses are trivial and good ones are in the 2.2k territory but I'm sorry but 3.3k unbuffed dummy parse is pics or didn't happen for me.

I finally got a T1 Orthanc Lightning Wing Boss parse. Balls-out, bottoms-up, unadulterated, unbridled, straight Fire DPS in a full raid and as much as I could possibly put out: 1100-1200 DPS. DoT's ticking as often as I could refresh them, Essence everytime it was up, Fall to Flame/Wrath everytime it was up, Smouldering Wrath everytime it was up. Not sure what buffs I had (it was, after all, a raid), but I have a screenshot I can analyze later. I'm absolutely certain that this was the max I could put out because my DPS parser had slowed down and leveled out. I was reaching my asymptote.

1100-1200 DPS. And that boss is a troll--supposedly weak to Fire damage!

Hate to be the one to tell you this Malf, but the right answer here is that you probably suck at DPS with fire. Or you're using terrible gear/LIs.

I've seen captains do 1100-1200 DPS in a raid.

Make sure to use the 3 piece fire set and a lot of mastery if you want to try to compare with good DPS parses. Crit multiplier jewellery is a terrible choice for fire DPS as well. If your mastery is over 30k and you're still only doing 1100-1200, then it's all on you.

I also didn't follow the whole conversation about AOE and incoming damage debuffs and all that, but there's definitely nothing wrong with Nokor's math. A 10% incoming damage boost on 3 targets is still only 10% more DPS assuming you're using the same AOE skill.

Annnnnd I'm also a little miffed that my 3k parse on Shadow t1 for almost 90 seconds is being totally ignored

Originally Posted by Ellery01

Hate to be the one to tell you this Malf, but the right answer here is that you probably suck at DPS with fire. Or you're using terrible gear/LIs.

Entirely possible. I look forward to figuring out what it is!

Originally Posted by Ellery01

Make sure to use the 3 piece fire set and a lot of mastery if you want to try to compare with good DPS parses. Crit multiplier jewellery is a terrible choice for fire DPS as well. If your mastery is over 30k and you're still only doing 1100-1200, then it's all on you.

My Tact. Mast. is over 27k. I could go higher, but I have opted for more survivability for virtues, so lots of morale/vit/tact. mit. I'm wearing 6x Orthanc Fire armor, + Draigoch cloak. Currently wearing all the teal Limlight Jewelry (Mender's AND Sage's), with the teal Mender's pocket. I'm wearing a morale/vit necklace, but if I un-equip it, I get squishy as a sponge and morale drops below 6k. Tact. Mit. at around 29% w/o buffs, but I can equip the teal Flask for some 2% more if I want. Of course, this drops my DPS. Tact. Mastery bonus is at 98%. Not sure what my crit is, but it's nothing strange, especially considering my gear. My Tact. Mast. rating on my stones are maxed, and I have all the fire legs maxed on my stone. 100% maxed legs on my satchel. Highest crit chisel (Exceptional Savant I think). The only thing I can think of that doesn't SCREEM leet RK is my vitality necklace and and vitality virtues. I don't quite have all my relics slotted; I think I'm missing one. 3x T7's on my satchel, and 2x T8's on my stones, with Devices of Tactics on both. Still working on that last T8 relic, but it's the rune, so I doubt I'll find a relic that can account for 2000 missing DPS. I find it hard to believe that I have to reslot my virtues and necklace back to tactical... that will drop my mitigation to below 20%, my morale below 5k, and will only boost my DPS by about 5 - 10 %.

My rotation is pretty solid, but after 90-ish seconds of fire DPS, rotation shouldn't really matter much. As long as WoF and MF are ticking, Essence, Smouldering, and Fall to Flame/Wrath are used when off cooldown, and FR is spammed in between, a proper rotation is only there to conserve power.

The bottom line is that I have gone over my setup with a VERY fine toothed comb, and I just can't figure it out. I invite... no, I BEG someone to figure out what's going on.

Originally Posted by Ellery01

I also didn't follow the whole conversation about AOE and incoming damage debuffs and all that, but there's definitely nothing wrong with Nokor's math. A 10% incoming damage boost on 3 targets is still only 10% more DPS assuming you're using the same AOE skill.

Yeah, I gave up on that. People are misinterpreting what I'm saying because they can't fathom the possibility that they are in the slightest bit misunderstanding the issue. Essentially, people are calculating the raw DPS bonus across an AOE, and then comparing that bonus to Single Target DPS. It's a meaningless comparison. If you do 100 DPS in a 3x AOE, you're doing 300 dps. A 10% bonus across 3x targets would be 10 x 3 = 30 extra RAW DPS across all targets. Each target gets a 10% damage bonus, so the overall Raw DPS increase is 30/300... which is 10%. However, other people are comparing the 30 Raw DPS bonus to the single-target 100 DPS. It's true that 30 is exactly 30% of 100 (barring quantum effects), so the example holds. But comparing the AOE damage bonus to single-target DPS is meaningless. It's dumb. It's like saying cheese tastes better than Coca-Cola. The people who are comparing the numbers are making a mistake in the comparison, but because they're not making the mistake Nokor's way, he can't let it go. Classic forum troll. You learn to ignore this kind of thing over time. Both parties are right in their own way; it's the comparison that's junk. In the same way, I can say that 40 extra damage is 40% of the example of 100 natural damage, so clocks must operate backwards in Australia. Makes absolutely no sense. I was trying to help Nokor and everyone else out, but I guess when panties get bunched up, nerd rage takes over and there's no holding back the "I have to be absolutely right, else my gigglestick will fall off."

And that's just the example I made up. I've completely forgotten what the original issue was. And I really don't care that much.

Originally Posted by Ellery01

Annnnnd I'm also a little miffed that my 3k parse on Shadow t1 for almost 90 seconds is being totally ignored

I didn't ignore it. That's why I tried to replicate your success. Were you traited/geared for lightning?

27k mastery is still somewhere between decent and good. Your LI is at least a 2nd age I assume. 1100-1200 is just too low. I was almost doing that with a third age a day or two after I hit 75 (which was the day after release). Something just isn't being accounted for. I recently transferred my RK (Ygaer) over to BW. Feel free to add me to your friends list and hit me up in game and I can try to figure it out there. I'm a big theorycrafter/mechanics type of person in general, and I'm positive you're just missing something if everything else you've said is correct.

As for the 3k parse, it was 7 yellows wearing as much DPS gear as I possibly could with a first age LI (no crystals). I'm just going off vague recollection, but I think it was ~33k tact mastery and ~23-24% tact crit. There were 2 burgs in the raid and I had blade brother. No LM (no ancient craft or warding circle) and no oath breakers.

As far as Nokor, I looked back at the posts that started the whole 'debate', and I would not say Nokor is trolling at all. Loki84 and Mandura posted stuff that was flat out wrong, and Nokor was trying to correct them. He didn't make any personal attacks, he just made several attempts to illustrate why they were wrong using math. I don't think there was a better way for him to do it, and they still didn't get it. I wouldn't fault him for trying :P

Just a thought for Malf, but Exceptional Savant is not the top. That would be the Exceptional Superior Calenard Chisel.

Originally Posted by Ellery01

27k mastery is still somewhere between decent and good. Your LI is at least a 2nd age I assume.

You are correct. 75 2a stones, 75 2a satchel.

Originally Posted by Ellery01

1100-1200 is just too low. I was almost doing that with a third age a day or two after I hit 75 (which was the day after release).

Yes, in fact I have parses that show higher DPS right after RoI. That was because of the spammable FR for 5 seconds though; my rotation emphasized this. I was in the 1200-1500 range. Not too bad, considering I was still working with 65 2a's instead of 75.

Originally Posted by Ellery01

Something just isn't being accounted for.

I know!!! What's got me confused is &&& could it be? I think I've been over everything like a googol times.

Originally Posted by Ellery01

I recently transferred my RK (Ygaer) over to BW. Feel free to add me to your friends list and hit me up in game and I can try to figure it out there. I'm a big theorycrafter/mechanics type of person in general, and I'm positive you're just missing something if everything else you've said is correct.

Yep. I'll find you. In fact, I"m loggin in now...

Originally Posted by Ellery01

As for the 3k parse, it was 7 yellows wearing as much DPS gear as I possibly could with a first age LI (no crystals). I'm just going off vague recollection, but I think it was ~33k tact mastery and ~23-24% tact crit. There were 2 burgs in the raid and I had blade brother. No LM (no ancient craft or warding circle) and no oath breakers.

1a LI can make a bit of a difference. I don't have any crystals in my 2a's either. Regardless, I think that lightning (yellow line) dps is in line with what it should be; up there with hunters/champs/burgs.

BTW, I watched Nokor's parse on the first page of this thread, and I see why he was able to get to 2.4k dps. For the 1st 15 seconds, he only got to 700-800 dps, but he got to full attunement. After 15 seconds, the parser stopped, and he restarted a new parse with a big Essence of Flame because he still had leftover attunement after combat dropped. It was like a 3k-4k hit, which opened him up at 3k-4k DPS. Over the next 15 seconds, he trickled down to 2.4k while spamming FR. In essence, he cheated the parser by exploiting the fact that the parser resets after 15 seconds because combat drops after 15 seconds. I could reproduce those results, but that doesn't represent real combat. In real combat, parsers don't stop parsing after 15 seconds so that you can restart with a 3k-4k hit 1.5 seconds after the restart. You have to suffer with 700-800 DPS until you can use Essence of Flame, which doesn't bring you over 1200 until Smouldering Wrath lands. Nice try though.

And I took a look at my parse results. I friggin died right before the boss went down (stupid Elhudan), so all my buffs were wiped. It does show my Mender's bauble and Tal Methedras Fate book (quest reward) on cooldown though... I did pop them at the end, trying to see if my numbers would go up. I actually peaked over 1200, but it trickled down the last second or 2 until combat ended.

Gonna go look for you online!

Nokor vs. world argument: It's 10% of one, 30% of another. The fabled 30 extra damage is 50% of 60*, whatever the F that means. Nothing. The same as 10% and 30%. Meaningless percentages of meaningless comparisons. You know what else? 30 is 100% of 30*. What does that mean? Nothing. Nokor is right; 30 is exactly 10% of 300*. So is everyone else; 30 is exactly 30% of 100*. 30 is also 1% of 3000*. Again, meaningless.

*barring quantum phenomena

Everyone else in this thread: 30 is 30% of 100!
Nokor: No, 30 is 10% of 300! And the rest of the world is wrong! There's no possible way 30 is 30% of anything!

O.o

So can we agree that these calculations mean absolutely nothing and get back to fixing Fire DPS, or at least fixing Malferellon?

Originally Posted by Ellery01

I also didn't follow the whole conversation about AOE and incoming damage debuffs and all that, but there's definitely nothing wrong with Nokor's math. A 10% incoming damage boost on 3 targets is still only 10% more DPS assuming you're using the same AOE skill.

I think the disconnect between Nokor and everyone else is that he is claiming the 10% bonus is spread across 3 mobs.... i.e., 10% divided by 3 = 3.33% per mob. I don't know how Telling Mark works, but I know how damage calculations work. Damage is calculated PER MOB. So if a RK has a 10% damage bonus, that bonus is applied PER MOB. If 3 mobs have a 10% incoming damage debuff, it's still 30% IF YOU COMPARE IT TO A SINGLE, UNBUFFED MOB. It's 10% if you compare the bonus across all 3 mobs, but if you (erroneously) compare the 3 x 10% buff to 1 mob, it's 30%.

So yes, Nokor, you are right. It is 10% across 3 mobs. Yes, Nokor, I did take your side. I still do. But your whole "If you could point me in the direction where my math is incorrect, so we can settle it. If you cannot do that, then I will assume you are wrong and I am right, the most important part about any conversation..." does not lend you much credibility. Only now that more credible, more reasonable people are asking me to point out where your math is "incorrect" am I doing so. People with your attitude garner little attention from me by themselves. I rarely bother with correcting someone unless they are either very nice to me, or if there are a LOT of people who can learn from what I have to say. You can assume you are right all you want; I don't care. I care what Ellery says/thinks because he seems more reasonable/mature (and his parse video doesn't appear to be exploiting the test dummy). And if the most important part of any conversation that you have with anyone is that you are right, I choose not to have any further conversations with you. A man who claims to know everything can learn nothing, and I don't post on these forums unless either I have something to teach or something to learn. I hope you find the solace you are looking for in whether you are wrong or right. And on that note, I am done with you.

*sigh*

So, Ygaer, shall we find out if I'm doing something wrong, or perhaps is the Fire RK truly broken?

I am still working on jewellry at this time so not fully geared, but wanted an opinion on if my dps seems ok right now or if it is way to low?

You called me a cry baby, and now my attitude is rude.

You cannot compare a bonus given across several targets to one. If you do then the interesting part of that calculation is definitely out of the window. And no it is not a 30% increase compared to one target to 3 - it is an increase of 230%. The increase of the bonus dmg from 1 target to 3 is 200%. The only way you can get to a 30% increase is by adding the bonus dmg onto your single target, which does not show anything what so ever.

My example is perfectly valid if you read what other people used to defend their PoW. It was said that 1 target with 10% dmg increase is 10% and the logic continued on 3 targets, so 30%. So it was potent to comment on the dmg increase on buffing only a selection of targets being hit by AoE.

How am I exploiting the test dummy? I pre buff, which is clearly being said.

Originally Posted by SophiaMarquette

I am still working on jewellry at this time so not fully geared, but wanted an opinion on if my dps seems ok right now or if it is way to low?

To be honest it is very hard to tell over the space of 15 seconds. Can you parse over 1 minute please and then repost pic.

If your lightening traited you cant hope to get over 1.3-1.4k and that is massively dependent on crits

Originally Posted by Lao10

To be honest it is very hard to tell over the space of 15 seconds. Can you parse over 1 minute please and then repost pic.

If your lightening traited you cant hope to get over 1.3-1.4k and that is massively dependent on crits

I regularly parse in the 1400 range on the training dummy in my lightning setup, but I have all the best gear, first ages with crystals, adamant gems of dreams, etc. Buffed I have parsed over 3k dps for acid zerg. I found that adding attack duration relics helped a lot.

Note that it is impossible to hit numbers that high in a fire setup as the dots will keep getting reset. In actual gaming conditions, single target, decent length fight (something like lightning boss), I have found that fire gives about 5% higher DPS, but this requires building your toon for fire - more mastery, less crit, separate fire stone and satchel, etc. I used to trait fire a lot, but have lately found it not to be worthwhile.

Originally Posted by SophiaMarquette

I am still working on jewellry at this time so not fully geared, but wanted an opinion on if my dps seems ok right now or if it is way to low?

What I notice immediately is that your measured DPS (1166) is not very close to your Average Damage (1814). The average damage that you do when hitting your mob and your DPS measurement should approach each other as the fight goes longer. The fact that yours are not very close together means that your DPS parse is not very accurate. Not that you did anything wrong; you just need to parse for a longer period of time. Ok, perhaps not. :-/

With lightning, you are in luck. The test dummy drops combat after 15 seconds, which wipes any debuffs/DoT's that have been applied. With lightning, all of your combat bonuses are buffs that are placed on YOU... which do not go away when the dummy drops combat! What this means is that with lightning, you can continue to pound away on the dummy, which will bring you right back into combat.

Keep hitting that dummy until your Average Damage and your DPS start getting close to each other. That will be a fairly true representation of your DPS. The gold standard adopted by the community is 60 seconds, but your mileage may vary.

As to whether or not 1166 is "good," well, it's meh. Also considering that you don't have the best gear, it's actually not too bad. For a fairly inexperienced RK with good gear, 1600 is probably where you're looking to be. 2000 should be attainable after you have a year or 2 of experience under your belt.

What? Average damage in Combat Analysis is average damage per attack. Unless you attack exactly once every second, there's no reason your average damage and measured DPS should be the same or even nearly so.

Ty for input. I will post another soon as I get moved and settled into new place. Looking at my traits lately as I have had a couple of people tell me I could be traited better

Originally Posted by Gylve

What? Average damage in Combat Analysis is average damage per attack. Unless you attack exactly once every second, there's no reason your average damage and measured DPS should be the same or even nearly so.

Yeah, in retrospect, I guess you're right. But there IS an asymptote/axis that DPS will approach, but never reach. DPS will cycle above the axis and below it, but it will (theoretically) never be exactly on it. The question is how to calculate this asymptote/axis... Any trig majors than can help?

Originally Posted by PerfectApproach

Yeah, in retrospect, I guess you're right. But there IS an asymptote/axis that DPS will approach, but never reach. DPS will cycle above the axis and below it, but it will (theoretically) never be exactly on it. The question is how to calculate this asymptote/axis... Any trig majors than can help?

Well, given that the cast time for all lightning skills is 1.5 seconds flat you should see something like this: DPS = average-damage / 1.5. In the example we have DPS = 1166 and average-damage = 1814. Using the formula we get 1814 / 1.5 = 1209.3. Shock-and-horror it don't match up!

Well, given how CA works and how the game is making data available to CA we will get a bit of fuzz.

Parameters:

(1) How much time of the initial skill is performed out-of-combat?
(2) How much extra time is added to the fight after going out-of-combat before CA stops parsing?
(3) For timed targets, like the dummy: Are you able to land your last skill before dropping the target?

(1) -> Increases the DPS slightly compared to the average skill damage
(2) -> Reduces the DPS, sometimes by a lot, compared to the average skill damage
(3) -> Reduces the DPS, sometimes by a lot, compared to the average skill damage

The average magnitude of (1) and (3) can be guesstimated to about half the skill time, i.e. .75 seconds and they should cancel out for a one cycle parse (15 seconds).

(2) can be in the range 0-4 seconds! and is probably the most important factor for a single-cycle parse. If you look at the given parse we see that the parse time is 15.6 seconds, not 15 seconds. If we divide the total damage, 18141, by 15 seconds we get ... tada ... 1209.3333 DPS. This skew will slowly become insignificant the longer the parse is.

(3) becomes a factor when doing parses over multiple cycles. You get hit by it once for each cycle transition in your parse so for a 60 second parse you have 60s - (1) + 4x(3) ~ 60s + 3x(3) or roughly 62 seconds. In my parsing attempts rarely manage to get the parse time below 62 seconds. Lets say I've done 120k damage over 4 cycles (60 seconds of damage time) but LOTRO+Dummy+CA have stretched that to 63 seconds, then CA would present that as 1905 DPS, not 2000 DPS.

Given how the dummy works we (sadly) get linearly increasing skew due to (3) for longer parses meaning that it never really goes away.

TL;DR: DPS = average-damage / 1.5 for a pure lightning parse (assuming no attack duration buffs/relics). Parse skew may fuzz your result.