Thread: Instance protocol? Making things personal

This is not about any particular instance, but an observation about protocol in instances and raids overall.
Is there any protocol about not making things too personal? Sometimes people do make mistakes.
Sometimes blame even gets misplaced for mistakes. Sometimes no mistakes are made and someone
gets blamed for a wipe when that is just how it goes sometimes.

I had one where I blew it. It was Roots of Fanghorn and I was told to get back to the purging root.
It was my third time and did not know at first to look for the one with the circle. My bad. I was told
"the one with the circle around it" eventually but it was disappearing as I arrived. Another got
poisoned and I was called an "awful champ" at the end of it. Maybe my uncertainty caused
the ultimate defeat (one try only on last boss) but before then i was stunning venomous spiders,
stepping back in on bosses after stunning so ranged players could take them out, doing aoe when
needed and refraining when needed, etc. Yes, my mistake may have cost the win on that one
try (tier2). The way it was handled was very much a reminder of the game I left for that type
of behavior.

To me, it was crass in how it was handled, but i have seen players get whopped by others at the end
more than the monsters were whopped. Is there any way for some to not make it too personal.
And please if someone is on their third run on something (i had done successful tier 1 earlier and
was only there to help in the first place) be specific on instructions if someone has only done
an instance three times. I know a lot of people do not like to explain in detail things over and
over but it can help save the day. Other players having any opps i have seen jumped on in
pretty personal and generalized ways. Is this really necessary? Making something too personal
or diminishing a persons play fully seems an intentionally low blow that i have seen not done
several times and sometimes when it was not any fault of the player being blasted.

I hope people will remember that the environment of the game equates to memberships and
game longevity so that they will maintain some protocol. At the end of the day it is a game
and blasting someones feelings is way out of line. The game i left when coming here once
had the largest free to play online. It is losing members now because of people tiring
for how they are treated. Lord of the Rings seems usually much better. I hope it will
be remembers that how others are treated can affect whether or not a game lasts.
It is also the right thing to do! That in the end should be the biggest consideration.
Conscientious comes from conscious. For those who wish to blast other players please
consider why and if possible refrain from doing so, just as i refrain from singling the other
person out by name here.


Beaglefan

Well, when our Kinship does instances such as these, we start by asking who has run it before and who has not. If it's somebody's first time, we explain what's going to happen and what they need to do. We then encourage everybody to ask questions until all feel confident they know what to do.

When we do wipe, we analyze what happened and try again with a modified strategy or with folks reminded of the importance of certain aspects of the instance.

Apparently the people you ran with think they'll get better results with vinegar than with honey. I do not think that is often the case. "If more of us valued your ways, food and cheer above hoarded gold, the world would be a merrier place."

I understand your feeling.

I make a regular routine of running what I call introductory instance runs, or educational runs, or whatever you want to call them - instance runs that are intended to give people with less than perfect experience, less-than-perfect class setups, less-than-perfect gear, a chance to experience the instance, to test some of their skills and abilities; basically, to get "better".

Ideally, of course, most people would get this experience over the course of leveling - they'd do a half-dozen GB runs (which is what it often took back in "the day") - they'd have run GA - if they were really, really dedicated, they would've spent two solid weeks trying to find groups for Fornost...and etc, and etc, and by the time they hit 50ish, they'd have a good solid hold of their class, at the very least, and of grouping with people - these days, not so much - the downside of an otherwise admirable attempt to make content more accessible, is that people more and more frequently show up with far less "seasoning" than they might have in times past.

now, there is something to offering after-action reports - criticisms of things done poorly or incorrectly, in an attempt to curb future bad behavior. I spend a lot of time on my above introductory runs training folks not to break mezzes, remembering to turn the tank-target's around, teaching people to hold off on high dps and AOE's until the tank has locked down aggro - etc etc...

so, I encourage folks running in groups to accept with good grace, criticisms offered on your play - AS LONG AS THOSE CRITICISMS ARE CONSTRUCTIVE, AND REASONABLY POLITELY COMMUNICATED

there's absolutely no excuse for being a jerk when offering criticisms on play-style, and there's really no use to just insulting people without offering any useful advice - even when it's justified, it just doesn't accomplish much

so, I guess what I'm saying is, yes, you more than have the right to not be called names to your face - not that we can do much to enforce that, but I'd still say you're right - but even you have acknowledged that there are things you can do better, and there's still room for ALL of us to learn new techniques, or hone current ones - no one I've met in this game yet is so totally awesome that they have the right to judge other folks as inferior

anyway, time to go home - hope you have better experiences as you move forward!!

One run only on last boss seems like a mistake. People learn from mistake and should do a second chance. Almost always in this game the players are not petulant about the instances or the performance in them. Maybe some people may think "lousy champ" but very rarely have I heard anyone voice this or type it.

What seems to happen is that we have a set of players for which instances are their means to get a certain amount of loot done in a minimal amount of time. They seem to have little patience for people who want to look around or who need explaining as this slows down their. They seem to be unable to comprehend that some players have not run an instance a hundred times before. Luckily this style of player is somewhat rare in this game, though sadly it is common in other games.

Usually after wipe groups I'm in will try again. There is a nearly non-existent penalty for wiping here. You spend a tiny bit of money on repairs, and a short period of time with fewer stats. I don't know why some people treat a wipe like a crime was committed. Now I can understand frustration if a player is obviously not listening or reading or is distracted by doing someting else during the fight, but no one should ever get upset because the group was not skilled enough or geared up enough and especially not because someone merely doesn't know the mechanics.

Originally Posted by phermitgb

I make a regular routine of running what I call introductory instance runs, or educational runs, or whatever you want to call them - instance runs that are intended to give people with less than perfect experience, less-than-perfect class setups, less-than-perfect gear, a chance to experience the instance, to test some of their skills and abilities; basically, to get "better".

I absolutely LOVE those runs, especially if I run it on my well-geared Guard
and a trusted, social well-behaved healer...
I'm 10x more likely to offer my services to these runs, than to Uberraider-speedruns...
I just hate the stress from speedruns and I like to help people overcome their noobness...

Originally Posted by phermitgb

no one I've met in this game yet is so totally awesome that they have the right to judge other folks as inferior

I do know one...
I consider him a personal friend of mine, thanks to LotRo...
He's such a good player an Uberraider-group wanted his badly geared
Runekeeper along for a Saruman-run, just because it was him.
But when a newbie needed a healer and a Tank for the 3-mans,
I offered my Guardian... turned out, my friend also had offered to
guide the newbie through, even though I knew he was busy at that time...
Being a very good player, to excel at playing almost any class and STILL
remaining human and social... I'd call that awesome...
Then again, he never calls someone inferior, he just educates them
and tries to make them better at what they (need to) do...
(yeah X, talking about you, if you ever read this XD )

I don't mind mistakes at all, and I'm all about resolving them and teaching players new to the content.

What I don't tolerate is the fair share of people I've encountered who are making obvious mistakes and refuse to acknowledge them or accept criticism. It is 100% detrimental to the group.

Thanks for the responses everyone. I have seen this before with others being called down heavily for something and
would try to say "hey wait!". The ones responding here seem to have a good view of it all. Not everyone has
run an instance 100 times. Everyone (even the critics) had to start somewhere. They may want all the flashy
gear quickly but at the end of the day at what price? At the price of whom? It is hard getting good tier 1's
to run a few times to learn the mechanics of an instance. Even with the best of styles and best of gear each
scenario has its own quirks which need to be learned or explained.

I thought the thing said to me was out of line just as I have thought it out of line when said to others. The quote above
of "If more of us valued your ways, food and cheer above hoarded gold, the world would be a merrier place." says
something that could be remembered in the game. The overall environment here should be one for which we would want
to leave other games. This type thing is less common here but when it happens it is both sad and infuriating at the
same time. What I like seeing is people who are willing to actually help. That says so much when one player
is about to help some others but the other who was being asked about already is.

That a couple of you take those not experienced with particular instances on runs to help break them in well
good on ya'. You are right that even the most seasoned players do make mistakes. As said vinegar
or honey. I left a game with some incredible ideas because the developers did little to discourage the vinegar
and seemed to even set up circumstances to where the sweet and sour lacked the sweet. The leader
in my kin has 7 alts that are 75 and is knows instances and may have a couple alts that could
have some of the critics seem inexperienced yet he says good job when needed and simply says what was
needed when something goes wrong, even if one persons mess up. Some will not admit it. Many will.
Pushing someone into a corner for criticism helps nothing, especially if personalized.
The agro should be from the monsters, not from any of us being a monster causing all the agro.
Those of you replying seem to agree. Thank goodness! It makes a difference in the game.

What i say about people leaving games when insults get too common is not just personal experience. My friends
list is full. Some on it of are from other games originally who are here because they did not like
the game environment elsewhere, regardless of concepts, graphics, etc. Those of you who are responding and say
yes be decent and even go out of your way to help that is what can turn the tide of a game being a
big fad with people getting burned or a game that endures. Too many out there will be
fads for awhile. This has potential for much more.

Thanks for your parts in that!

And thank you for your responses
Beaglefan61

Originally Posted by beaglefan61

This is not about any particular instance, but an observation about protocol in instances and raids overall.
Is there any protocol about not making things too personal? Sometimes people do make mistakes.
Sometimes blame even gets misplaced for mistakes. Sometimes no mistakes are made and someone
gets blamed for a wipe when that is just how it goes sometimes.

I had one where I blew it. It was Roots of Fanghorn and I was told to get back to the purging root.
It was my third time and did not know at first to look for the one with the circle. My bad. I was told
"the one with the circle around it" eventually but it was disappearing as I arrived. Another got
poisoned and I was called an "awful champ" at the end of it. Maybe my uncertainty caused
the ultimate defeat (one try only on last boss) but before then i was stunning venomous spiders,
stepping back in on bosses after stunning so ranged players could take them out, doing aoe when
needed and refraining when needed, etc. Yes, my mistake may have cost the win on that one
try (tier2). The way it was handled was very much a reminder of the game I left for that type
of behavior.

To me, it was crass in how it was handled, but i have seen players get whopped by others at the end
more than the monsters were whopped. Is there any way for some to not make it too personal.
And please if someone is on their third run on something (i had done successful tier 1 earlier and
was only there to help in the first place) be specific on instructions if someone has only done
an instance three times. I know a lot of people do not like to explain in detail things over and
over but it can help save the day. Other players having any opps i have seen jumped on in
pretty personal and generalized ways. Is this really necessary? Making something too personal
or diminishing a persons play fully seems an intentionally low blow that i have seen not done
several times and sometimes when it was not any fault of the player being blasted.

I hope people will remember that the environment of the game equates to memberships and
game longevity so that they will maintain some protocol. At the end of the day it is a game
and blasting someones feelings is way out of line. The game i left when coming here once
had the largest free to play online. It is losing members now because of people tiring
for how they are treated. Lord of the Rings seems usually much better. I hope it will
be remembers that how others are treated can affect whether or not a game lasts.
It is also the right thing to do! That in the end should be the biggest consideration.
Conscientious comes from conscious. For those who wish to blast other players please
consider why and if possible refrain from doing so, just as i refrain from singling the other
person out by name here.


Beaglefan

Beagle, this game has a lot of elitist pricks on it. That's just the nature of all MMOs, and on-line environments in general. Hell - real-life environments too lol

Best advice here is if you can't handle dealing with rude people, stick to doing content only with friends and people you know. Otherwise you're going to occasionally have to deal with situations like this, especially if you are new to the content.

It's just a fact of life when dealing with other people - and there is no way to stop it. &&&&&&&s are out there, and you will meet them.

If things aren't "personal" then often the "person" who is the weak spot will not realize that they are the ones at fault for a given mistake.

That being said, there is no reason to be cruel to a new party member, particularly if they haven't done the instance before. However, I have played with people who, even after 10-15 runs of an instance, are still completely and totally clueless. One captain ended up leaving my kin after we pointed out that HE was the one that the Lieutenants bird was eating every time due to not running the hell away. There are some players who, despite all the advice and encouragement in the world are simply terrible players at their class and as far as can be ascertained, unable to improve.

Speaking for myself, I never grouped until level 60 even though I've played since closed beta, but between my general analytical prowess and prior MMO experience I was not hindered in early instance runs (moria instances) apart from the encounter-specific information (which, at that time, 1-2 weeks after Moria release, was not yet common knowledge anyhow)

lol i wrote out this response saying i might have said "this &&&&in guy..." in a separate chat and perhaps put u on ignore if you were otherwise bad...

...then i reread and saw that they blamed a heavy armor with only 3 acid ticks for wiping the group lol xD really now

id put all 5 of those idiots on ignore. in fact if u play how you said u did, id say if theres any blame to be dealt, it's on them for having bad heals and bad leadership. i could be thinking of another instance but i believe i healed that on my capt fine with the draigoch set, a mini should get bored in there eh?

bottom line, socializing is much more entertaining than conquering 30m worth of content, just put those kinds of people on ignore and don't make the same mistake next time!

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Best advice here is if you can't handle dealing with rude people, stick to doing content only with friends and people you know.

This is just the wrong attitude to take I think. Too often people say "get a thicker skin" as if that is a solution. It's as useless a piece of advice as saying that if you don't like all the graffiti in the neighborhood that you should stay inside.

It is better to try and change the attitudes of the other players and create a social atmosphere that is welcoming. If you look the other way then you leave the problems unsolved and are encouraging a debased community through inaction.

These sorts of attitudes should not be overlooked when encountered. Call out the people on this when it happens and let them know that it's not cool. Refuse to group with them again. Put them on ignore.

This game has a reputation for being more mature and respectful of others than most games, but we have to work to keep it that way.

Originally Posted by Iracham

There are some players who, despite all the advice and encouragement in the world are simply terrible players at their class and as far as can be ascertained, unable to improve.

And some of these players are my favorites in the game. They're fun to group with even though things go badly. They don't criticize others, they think I'm awesome when I'm just average, they say thanks to everyone for helping, and so forth. On the other hand I know a lot of "perfect" players who are very annoying to group with because they demand perfection from everyone else, they're competitive, they don't help anyone else except themselves, they'll argue over loot rules, they complain if things are taking too long, they'll point out flaws in other people, they never will say thanks as they expect a great job to be a minimum acceptable standard.

What you said just above with the players who are demanding, expect perfection, argue over loots, I have seen. Was in one instance where blame was heaped on me after I was trying to get the person who was running it off of another. On that one
it was a Watcher raids where all the champions were supposed to do is Clobber to block skill inductions. All mistakes were
called out in a bad way while actually it was taking far too long to take the beast down because two sources of large damage were stuck doing 'clobber', wait for timer to expire, 'clobber' again with whatever damage in between
and the rest were supposed to take out the main part of watcher quickly enough. I took out my tentacle twice,
swam over to help with the main part of watcher, swam back when tentacle would spawn again and was told 'well i
saw that you missed a couple of blocks on skill inductions so the watcher could be healed. Hello? I did it every time
cooler was down. Maybe it was the plan that was a problem. When doing it and getting the silly tentacles out of the way
a heap of damage can be done before tentacles can spawn again. My point is in that is some who demand perfect
may of themselves not be so perfect.

Even those who are excellent players had to start somewhere so that the ones intolerant and want the best for themselves
and heck with everyone else do not care they also had a once upon a time when they had not run a raid 1000000 times.
It is basically "i am about me and it's okay how i treat you" mindset.

Getting kicked out of groups for not being experienced enough i think happens here. Should it? I know it
can get tiring explaining the same thing on different runs, but those players who complain about having to do this
may have had it explained to them once upon a time too.

Putting a person on ignore yes that is a good idea. Who needs someone who approaches things in that way as a friend?
For ignoring the problem overall, what was said in "if you don't like all the graffiti in the neighborhood that you should stay inside" says so much. Awesome analogy. I may quote you outside here in the future. People should not have to pay a price for ignoring a problem itself (this is distinguishing from what some say put people on ignore it is about pointing a problem out when it is a problem).

Ignoring a person may be viable. When that person is talking badly to not call it could lead to things getting worse. Problems ignored become worse. People die from that hacking cough they ignored only to be found in stage 4 cancer rather than getting something done when it was stage one. As such I post this. It is not only okay to not take back burner when someone is being trash talked, it is a way
to keep things from becoming worse.

We do have some right for a peaceful environment. At the end of any raid or instance, successful or unsuccessful, while we do not pay their VIP status they also do not pay for ours.

Sticking with content and people i know is a good idea for comfort of the game. Maybe I should do that and forget the
great equipment chase. It sounds cozier and much more personal. Wouldn't it be sad though if all the people who can fare best in the game end up being the rudest? It is a good idea at times when needing a sanity breather. Most raids and instances are well run and
(that means in the handling of people too not just strategy and execution thereof). The ones that go less well how
people are treated shows a big difference. Yes, best to stick with those who are easier to get along with. That feels better. What i wish is it was made easier to stay with people who are that way and still get the same advantages as those who we are talking about claim so eagerly for themselves. Seems like they are the ones with all the good equipment who get in on so much (some great people have great stuff having done it the right way all while taking time to help others). So what you say making sense on that and how the game is set up I hope the folks at LOTRO can help on somehow. They seem to care about how it goes here unlike the developers of some MMO's so this is where I hope
the game developers can find a way to close that gap.

Yes,on the one exact scenario described, giving another try at the last boss makes more sense
than acting like the last boss. When there is not enough time to allow for complications, don't try to run it
If people are willing to say "oh duh that is how it works" then that should be that. Giving others a chance ultimately helps the game go better anyhow. If explain clearly what will happen, this is minimized anyhow.

Yes, there a some elitists around. The ones who are elitists may have a great
character statistics but forget that personality is also part of a character. Character is used to describe a fabric
of a persons personality or inner being more often than it is used to describe some alt on a role playing game.

So what all of you are saying helps to hear so much. It is
great to hear i am not the only person around who minds such things. Who here wants to actually pay to come to experience that? Pay or not here or anywhere, being well treated and having a place where it we can be open to others and treat them well is so much better than locking the graffiti out by locking ourselves in. There is far too much in life of that without having to pay for it.

Thanks for all your replies. I like a lot of the perspective you each give. Take good care and best of luck
in how you are treated as you learn new things in the forthcoming update. Ignorance will apply to all then, even the elitists.


This is pretty long about now as I was trying to get back
to each of you. Thank you for all your replies.
Take good care
Beagle

Originally Posted by Lohi

And some of these players are my favorites in the game. They're fun to group with even though things go badly. They don't criticize others, they think I'm awesome when I'm just average, they say thanks to everyone for helping, and so forth. On the other hand I know a lot of "perfect" players who are very annoying to group with because they demand perfection from everyone else, they're competitive, they don't help anyone else except themselves, they'll argue over loot rules, they complain if things are taking too long, they'll point out flaws in other people, they never will say thanks as they expect a great job to be a minimum acceptable standard.

Well said!

MMO players like most other people come in all shapes and sizes and it is often impossible to guess which type of person is sitting at the keyboard - it could be a 13 year old from a broken home with self esteem problems who feels all alone, it could be a 35 year old marketing exec who has a sports car, a huge house with a pool and an ego to match, it could be a 75 year old grandfather. There is no way I know of to communicate effectively with those 3 very different individuals that would work on all of them.

This is not to excuse poor behaviour in running instances and raids, there is a lot of that going around and it has no place in the game - because LOTRO is when all is said and done a game.

If you run with a group of people you don't know, or mostly people you don't know, they will often have a way of doing things which entail a number of expectations about how you should do things - this may be very different from how you normally do things in the same situation. At the outset this is very important to establish by asking relevant questions which can help avoid misunderstandings later as well defusing possible conflicts before they arise due to these differences. It should always be the group leaders responsibility to ensure that every member of the group is on the same page, however if you are the odd one out, you should also know to ask how the group handles any specific situation that may be tricky or how they prefer to handle a specific fight.

If a run goes wrong (it happens, even to groups who should be able to handle it), you need to find out why. Once this has been established you need to find out if there was a good reason why this happened, for instance the same person got hit with stuns and couldn't pot or lagged out or the instance glitched or if it was a simple mistake or if it was a miscommunication. Either way it is important to address the situation properly to work out if it is something that will repeat (for instance a miscommunication - make sure everybody knows the deal, if there is lag maybe try to make sure the person who is lagging doesn't have to do anything that is time sensitive etc.).

Just placing blame is not helpful, if it becomes a blame and shaming situation you are usually better off just leaving the group - no instance in LOTRO is worth taking that kind of abuse over.