Thread: Inside the Game: Mounted Combat discussion

Originally Posted by Tainted_Black

No they didn't.. because Mounted Combat is not an expansion feature. ..
Those are all free.

On paper all true but in practice completely false.

Everything that´s so-called free in this expansion can only be experienced with actually buying it.
Mounted combat is Rohan questpack only.
The mobs will be so advanced that anybody wandering in is dead meat, so you need the expansion content to level up, etc.

Originally Posted by Flatfoot789

On paper all true but in practice completely false.

Everything that´s so-called free in this expansion can only be experienced with actually buying it.
Mounted combat is Rohan questpack only.
The mobs will be so advanced that anybody wandering in is dead meat, so you need the expansion content to level up, etc.

Nope. Everyone gets one tree of mounted combat, regardless of status. The other two are from buying Rohan and preordering, I believe.

And with regards to levelling, if you wait until launch to do GR, then you could probably reach around 78-80 from those quests. There's also the Epic Line, which is free to all, and skirmishes to do as well if you're determined not to buy Rohan.

Devs,

It is still not at all clear how my favorite class (Burglar) at all benefits from mounted combat. Burglars by design have zero-to-limited range DPS, and their best contribution is when when they are being stealthy and attacking from the rear. Since I can't see you guys ever allowing stealthed horseback riding, and staying on the 6 of a warg rider sounds like it will not be the norm, I'm guessing you're drastically changing the traditional role of the burglar with this addition to the game. It's that kind of detail I'd like to see before shelling out for the uber pre-order editions.

Clearly mounted combat and stealth burst damage from the rear are incompatible. This leads me to hope for some CC improvements on mounts. I can imagine the use of some more clever devices (hopefully not as expensive to make) from horseback for burglars. However, the CC line for the Burglar has never been the strongest and has been nerfed some in the past couple years. In fact you guys have specifically stated that you'd like to see CC toned down more... so.. what do burgs gain from this? It really sounds like nothing. And nothing in your recent video addresses this.

When you look at the evolution of mobile combat practically/historically, it was always something that favored ranged damage. This makes perfect sense. If you're going to be moving around while fighting, you need to be able to launch a package which will do damage from range. You're simply not going to be within direct melee range when you're riding around. Cavalry charges were always most powerful with bows or guns. The belligerants of world-war-2 did not strap large hydraulic battering rams onto their tanks, they put cannons on them. So just on a pure logic standpoint, mounted/mobile combat will by nature favor the RANGED CLASSES. There's no avoiding this.

So what are the non-ranged classes getting? Are they being drastically reshaped to do damage from range on horseback? Am I still stuck as a primarily melee-only-range DPS class on a horse as a Burg, Champ or Guardian? Do the classes that get positional damage RETAIN positional damage bonuses on horseback? If so, what skills are available to them to ensure they're able to utilize their bonuses? Please explain these things. Talking about 3 new stances for mounts doesn't explain how you guys have addressed the primary concern of those considering this new addition to the game. And your hand-wavy answer of "well things become more AOE on horseback" doesn't really answer those questions.

EDIT/PS: I should add, nice job with the new music. It's about time the game got some big new sound.

Originally Posted by Nyrion

Nope. Everyone gets one tree of mounted combat, regardless of status. The other two are from buying Rohan and preordering, I believe.

I´m aware of that and it´s pretty safe to assume that the amount of free mounted combat available through the epic questline will be negligible. If it´s there at all.

Of course you will be able to grind your way up in the usual fashion. But that only works for so long till it get´s mindbogglingly boring, thus the mobs will quickly shorten your excursions on the new plains.

My point simply is that any meaningful mounted combat gameplay is only available in the new specifically designed Rohan quests and instances, so it´s DE-facto an expansion only feature.

Thanks for the video! Just a thought I have.. Horse naked = Horse gets XP = gains levels = new and better armour/ new skins? Keep up the good community work, excited about upcoming viedos!

I saw that you showed the basics of mounted combat and gave some spacific and some general discriptions of both combat differences and mob differences. I was happy to see that much as a starting disclosure of RoH.

Looks like the team has been/is doing a good job of creating what we have been asking for for several years.

Thanks.

Thanks for the sneak peek. I'm very much looking forward to mounted combat.

Originally Posted by Nyrion

Nope. Everyone gets one tree of mounted combat, regardless of status. The other two are from buying Rohan and preordering, I believe.

And with regards to levelling, if you wait until launch to do GR, then you could probably reach around 78-80 from those quests. There's also the Epic Line, which is free to all, and skirmishes to do as well if you're determined not to buy Rohan.

Leveling a toon from 75 to 85 without Rohan xpac will probably take you an humongous number of playing hours, just like leveling to 60 after release of MoM and before lothlorien. If you value so litle your time, then sure...

Originally Posted by Tainted_Black

No they didn't.. because Mounted Combat is not an expansion feature. Everyone gets it, expansion or not. I wish people would remember this fact when talking about the expansion, as it's not part of it.. further reducing it's appeal to actually buy it.
The expansion is a quest pack and some free TP.
Not the landscape mass, epic story or mounted combat. Those are all free.

That's the fine line Turbine is walking between providing a good, playable experiance for 'free to play / premium' players and vips being suitably rewarded. Turbine has chosen to err on the side of less incentive to subscribe and more incentive to keep the premium players coming back. Personally I'm cool with that (lifetimer).

I really wanted to check out Vanguard F2P but with uncommon and better gear locked to subscripers only it'll no doubt be a brief look then moving on.

Originally Posted by gildhur

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


8 isn't a few?

I may be wrong, but I was taught that a couple is two and a few = three. Beyond that we need to use precise numbers, otherwise confusion arises and feelings get hurt for no reason.

Looks great. Looks much smoother and more extensive than the WoW 'mounted combat' and mobs of horseback will add tons of variety to mobs which I don't think we've seen since Moria really!

Originally Posted by ThalionGoldcrown

I may be wrong, but I was taught that a couple is two and a few = three. Beyond that we need to use precise numbers, otherwise confusion arises and feelings get hurt for no reason.

Courtesy of http://xkcd.com/1070/

Pony Up!

Nice tease!

What jumped out at me most was how FAST that horse is moving. With the camera pulled back from the screen, I was reminded more of a flight simulator or air combat game than swords & sorcery.

Seriously, you could have put a little jet fighter or attack helicopter in there instead of the horse and it would have fit right in.

Which is actually quite cool, because it's clear the pace and nature of mounted combat is very different from unmounted. It would also be somewhat tedious if mounts weren't so fast. Frankly, from what I've seen so far, I think I could just ride around for a few days on the new mounts and not even bother questing. It looks like fun in itself.

I'll admit still being on the fence about purchasing RoR and, if so, which option to choose. With two accounts, that's no small decision and no small investment. However, the more I see, the more assured I feel, so the trend is positive.

Also, it's great to see the people behind the curtain and get a feel for, as you say, what it's like inside the building. With the digital curtain of business confidentiality, legalities and forum formats, it's easy to forget we're all real people, and communication can be more challenging because of it. Showing more of what happens behind the scenes helps humanize the process more, and can only help make our community a little kinder.

Anyway, thanks for the peek! I look forward ot more of them, and who knows?

Maybe you'll be the one who ends up selling me two expansions.

Question:

Has the development cycle for mounted combat included checking out other computergames that have implemented mounted combat in the past?

Reason behind question:

Mounted combat is supposedly quite hard to 'get right'. Past games failed/succeeded in this, at least should have lessons that could be learned relatively easy and early in the design process.

Remark:

Loving the flight-sim comparison. This tease directs me to think mounted combat is about attacking a moving target while being on the move. Situational awareness comes into play a lot more. RoR bringing the dogfight in air to the fantasy on land. Interesting, getting more and more curious about actual experiences in playing by previewers. And having good faith in my prepurchase

Originally Posted by TheNightAngel

I understand its how you play. However, its not how the devs have designed the game, nor is it how most people play.

I'm not sure how a "zone count" equates to developer intent and design. If you look at end game content there are FAR FAR FAR more players in the ettenmoors EVERY DAY than there are exclusive PvE players running PvE end game instances. It's clearly THE end-game option.

"Most people" are stuck in the grind at some point or another. But end game players go to the moors.

Originally Posted by Tannus

For myself, and all my friends who play lotro and have no interest in PvMP at all, no.
.

For myself, and all my friends who play lotro and have interest in PvMP, yes.

See how that works? It's all anecdotal and based on personal preference. The reality is for a large section of the daily players at end game the moors is a HUGE portion of their gameplay.

I'm not in favour of suggesting all areas should be open PvMP. But I do believe there's a reasonable argument to be made that much MORE of the map should have PvMP component. And there have been plenty of players who over the years have left because there's not enough PvMP exposure.


---


Anyhow,

Thanks Sapience. Good video, good idea, more communication is always better.

I personally look forward to seeing how this shakes out. I fell in love with the "timing" and rhythm of Champ combat in SoA and it's changed (mostly not for the better) over the years. It'll be interesting to see how mounted combat feels.

Just one request. Please don't make our current mounts obsolete. (Selfishly I'm thinking of the R9 and R12 moors mounts...which IMHO should be the most powerful mounts in the game given that they're by far the hardest to achieve--cost/benefit 101 here)

.....

Awesome! Sitting on the edge of anticipation waiting for launch. However....

With having a LM main, I will be extremely interested to see how mounted combat effects the lore-master's pets. Are they to be dormant as per usual mount travel or will they be running along side the mount still able to be used and generate the usual buffs for the party? If they are dormant, will 'Inner Flame' still function or be sacrificed to the horse lords?

Much is to be seen in the coming months. To see my saber-tooth pounce a mounted goblin, possibly dismounting, and unleashing all of his fury would be unpresidented (it's just a thought... don't judge).

Originally Posted by Thane9

If you look at end game content there are FAR FAR FAR more players in the ettenmoors EVERY DAY than there are exclusive PvE players running PvE end game instances. It's clearly THE end-game option.

Could you provide some evidence to back up this statement?

Actually it's very possible to get to the current level cap as you reach Galtrev, if you do every quest in every zone and stop questing once you reach level cap, which is exactly what i've done.

Once Rohan launches, if I decide to come back to the game I still have the rest of the Isengard expansion, new epic quest line and skirmishes/current group quests available to me to level to 85, which will be very possible.

Originally Posted by Arahor_Aure

You all dont realise that this expansion will be worthless? Game itself wont become balanced, just more unbalanced, more skirmish farm instead of proper playing to gain loot. It will be "ZOMG this is soo awesome" the first two weeks, then it will be moaning untill next expansion. At least i got brains and dont play this game anymore, 5 years i've seen this game being dragged down into a deep hole where the sun wont shine, now i'm tired of it.

Yet for all those "brains", you still come back to make negative posts about a game you no longer play? Either you are lying, or you are not very self-aware. I'd say its 50/50 either way right now.

If you are really tired of this game, and you have brains, you'll move on to something else that suits you and spare the rest of us your uninformed, non-playing opinions.

Originally Posted by FromgalTheMinstrel

Hey, hey! I was not offensive in that post. I don't see the idiocy of it.

They are offering preorders of an expansion whose main features have been kept hidden, or are avoided, and they play this little game of showing us whatever and let us entertain ourselves digging for the details and guessing.

Are you selling something for $40-$70? Then show me what I'm buying. For some reason everyone here is delighted of being given breadcrumbs instead of a honest exposition of what is our money paying for.
I'm totally okay if they 'tease' us with this kind of stuff 6 months before the release. But starting asking for money with the preorders and offer only promises and placeholders less than two months away from the release... I just don't get why so many of you like this practice.
- Hey! Give me $40-$70 for whatever there is in this box! I let you look at it through this pin hole for few seconds!
- Oh, it is awesome that you let us barely look at what we are buying! Screw the naysayers!

You must be kidding...

Oh I agree completely. I call this effect we're seeing "the iPhone effect." It manifests in customers who want to have the latest "thing" without considering what they're doing. I love what turbine has done bringing this fiction to a playable game, I really do. But as a responsible consumer I'm not going to just fork over money without a better understanding of what I'm getting.

Please give us more detail Turbine. Don't succumb to the dark side of keeping your customers dazzled and dazed and willingly
paying for new stuff. Tell us what we're getting.

Originally Posted by Graycient

Some of the concept of mounted combat is interesting. What I dislike is it looks like everything is forcing you to be mounted. Can you knock an enemy off of their horse while you're still on the ground and fight them face to face on your own two feet?

Now there is a very interesting concept. In Real Life (circa 1400-1500) the Halberd was developed to do just that -- dismount and de-armour a heavily armoured and mounted knight.

That's why the Halberd looks like an axe blade with a can-opener (thorn) on the backside on the end of a 6 foot pole.

So, sure, why not. Ground forces equipped with Pole Arms were "common" in Europe -- think of the Germans (thought to have developed the Halbred) or the Swiss Guard at the Vatican today.

Now of course, this would imply the need for a "skill specialization" -- I could easily see a Warden in this guise.
The halberd manoeuvres would include Strike, Swing, Cleave -- all similar moves to those related to wielding a broadsword -- and the all important "Takedown" -- used to pull the knight off his horse.

Originally Posted by Piedtendre

Please Turbine, pay attention to the UI interface makers and the Lua Plugins makers !
Take care in advance to give them tools and informations, to give them the opportunity to work and adapt their interfaces and plugins, a lot, a big lot, of players are using that.
It would be sad if everything done by the players (costing them a lot of time and energy) is broken the day RoR is launched.

Hopefully the various Lua programmers and Skinners will be in the ROR beta and be able to do testing at that time.

However, more importantly, please, pretty-please, pretty-please with sugar on it -- give Narrel the support he needs to get the updated API and Skinning Documentation posted as quickly as possible after release. And, PLEASE, Pretty-pretty-please, get data.lotro.com cleaned up so that my.lotro.com character sheets and the sig boxes work correctly again.

(I'm a T7 Westfield master explorer.)

Originally Posted by Flatfoot789

Of course you will be able to grind your way up in the usual fashion. But that only works for so long till it get´s mindbogglingly boring, thus the mobs will quickly shorten your excursions on the new plains.

My point simply is that any meaningful mounted combat gameplay is only available in the new specifically designed Rohan quests and instances, so it´s DE-facto an expansion only feature.

Short life span, just as it is currently if you wander into The Great River Region at lvl 21.

From the video it is clear the Rohan is a continuation of The Great River -- lvl 74+ mobs, apparently progressing to lvl 80 towards Fangorn.

Other than that, no, not just quests and instances. Apparently the entire Wold [Norcrofts] area will be a mounted combat area, not just within specific quests or instances.

excited to try my lvl 75 rk on horse, will be so exciting to play

Thanks for the effort, "community team". This shouldnt normally be your job.

But I still dont know what you´re trying to sell me here, Turbine. The few seconds that I saw showed "fighting" while sitting on a horse, not mounted combat. Just my opinion.

Originally Posted by Valamar

Now there is a very interesting concept. In Real Life (circa 1400-1500) the Halberd was developed to do just that -- dismount and de-armour a heavily armoured and mounted knight.

That's why the Halberd looks like an axe blade with a can-opener (thorn) on the backside on the end of a 6 foot pole.

So, sure, why not. Ground forces equipped with Pole Arms were "common" in Europe -- think of the Germans (thought to have developed the Halbred) or the Swiss Guard at the Vatican today.

Now of course, this would imply the need for a "skill specialization" -- I could easily see a Warden in this guise.
The halberd manoeuvres would include Strike, Swing, Cleave -- all similar moves to those related to wielding a broadsword -- and the all important "Takedown" -- used to pull the knight off his horse.

They may have already included a means to dismount a mob, possibly.

If you watch and listen carefully to the commentary at about 3:41 in this video, you can see the Captain use a charge attack to "knock down, dismount, and kill" the Goblin Spear-Thrower all at once.

Also, if you look closely at the mostly-hidden vitals displays at the top of the screen, and the color of the Goblin Spear-Thrower floating name on the field itself, you can tell that the Captain is currently at level 75. There may very well be a dismounting skill earned later on.

Originally Posted by Vandervahn

But I still dont know what you´re trying to sell me here, Turbine. The few seconds that I saw showed "fighting" while sitting on a horse, not mounted combat. Just my opinion.

Same here. My reaction to this video can be summarized as "disappointment". I dont see what makes this fighting with added horse animation (and maybe enhanced run speed) "cool".

I don't like the fact that it counts damage when the other guy is like 10ft away from him and he's swinging the sword... It should be more realistic like that it counts the damage only if he is close enough to get him with his sword.

I know this is still early stage but I think it should be fixed or at least decreased distance... if we move this aside all I can say is that this is a good update!

I've only read the first page of responses to the video, and the point I want to add was only mentioned by one person, but it is kind of a concern I've had about the game in general, not just with the upcoming RoR.

In the video, you see the battle and the two horses are some distance from each other and there is still damage being done. This is something that exists already in the game. For example, a mob will attack you and you can't melee (or do damage) because you're not close enough yet you still take damage from the mob. It seems from this video that the same will occur. The distance between the horses and still taking damage is blatantly obvious.

I don't know if that is something that can ever be corrected, but it's just my opinion that it should be.

That was the one thing that stuck out at me the most about a "first look teaser" at RoR mounted combat. Other than that, I really loved the art and graphics, landscape, etc.

Thank you for the sneak peek.

Originally Posted by Jerek_of_horus

Oh I agree completely. I call this effect we're seeing "the iPhone effect." It manifests in customers who want to have the latest "thing" without considering what they're doing. I love what turbine has done bringing this fiction to a playable game, I really do. But as a responsible consumer I'm not going to just fork over money without a better understanding of what I'm getting.

Please give us more detail Turbine. Don't succumb to the dark side of keeping your customers dazzled and dazed and willingly paying for new stuff. Tell us what we're getting.

This is the stance I agree with, as well. I'm still, probably even more after seeing the video, confused as to whether I want to purchase RoR. The mounted combat idea is an exciting one, to be sure. However, noticing the distance between the opponents and that damage is still being taken is a concern. As well, the fact that it has already been said that certain areas and quests in RoR will have mandatory mounted combat. Given that, I'm assuming that there will be Epic Quest lines that can't be completed without said mandatory mounted combat.

As a gamer, I don't like to be "forced" to play a certain way. I'd rather have my choice. Just like, currently, there are quest lines where you are "forced" to be in a fellowship to complete. Or, the choice is to gain about 10-15 levels before you can complete it solo. Personally, I have no problems with fellowships. It's an aspect to mmorpg that I enjoy. But, I am currently playing off a older laptop computer since my tower crapped out on me. I tend to lag, more often than not, and therefore playing in a fellowship is not really an option for me as it would cause holdups during lag spikes and have mercy on your soul if I'm a minstrel in your fellowship during a boss fight.

Anyway, I digress a little. The point is I agree that we're being asked to spend up to $70.00 to purchase something on "faith". I'm thankful that we were giving a quick look at the game, but for us that are debating whether RoR's value meets the given price, especially with only 8 weeks to release, that video creates more questions than answers.

My question is this (and it is sincere and not meant to troll): Has there been so little documentation and video offered because there are problems with this expansion? LOTRO has a solid fanbase and I'm pretty sure that for $70.00 per player (and for subscribers, an additional 10-15 bucks a month) it's not too much to ask that you let us know what's up with the "secrecy".

Grass and houses are plopping in. Pose of rider is stiff. Horses are nacked and identical. Combat looks disconected. Player in demo dies from warg-archer, desperatly trying to heal himself ... dies in the end.

Video makes it clear why the state of lotros mounted combat is considered 'not fully developed'. I wouldnt have shown this video, its has no positive information at all.

Originally Posted by Sapience

LOL. Well, we all have different monitors and needs. For example my desk has two monitors, a 19" 4:3 and a 23" 16:9 1080P display. Others have fully touch enabled Wacom drawing monitors that they can draw directly on. They're pretty slick.

Wow, the janitor at the non-profit where I work quit using monitors that small years ago. No wonder the game sucks. Someone should get you guys some decent equipment.

No wonder the game is dead, and so many are leaving for GW2...

Originally Posted by Celdin

No wonder the game is dead, and so many are leaving for GW2...

Yep.
Too bad they are the same who left for SWTOR.

With todays news about our opponents, we can see how the classes are divided on creep side, and it logically calls for about similar division on freep side as well.

So far we have:
- chargers, that power up and then deliver one devastating attack, then wheeling away to power up again,
- leeches, that stay side by side or tail you, and just swing/debuff,
- harassers, that stay off at range and pepper us with spells/arrows, possibly using the parthian shot tactics.

So it would be that we may have some chargers (champions, wardens), some leeches (guardians, captains) and some harassers (hunters, loremasters, minstrels, runekeepers). It may well be that burg is gonna be this leecher class, sticking close, swinging for damage but also using all these clewer burg devices, like dust in eyes, stuns, traps close-on, while LM do about same but from distance.

Well, the ranged harassers are in larger propertion in my analysis...

I think the community team does a good job. They're also tied down to certain NDAs on parts of the game. Good work community team.

As for the video itself... I don't know what to make of mounted combat. Still in alpha according to Massivley with only 7 weeks to go, it doesn't really inspire confidence

All I got from this is that mounted "combat" seems to consist of waving a sword around in the air while an enemy 50 yards away mysteriously takes damage from it. Oh, that and the fact that the enemies oh so conveniently run alongside you rather than charging. I had really hoped that mounted combat would look, well, more like you're actually fighting from horseback, not just riding around.

Originally Posted by Fralin

I think the community team does a good job. They're also tied down to certain NDAs on parts of the game. Good work community team.

As for the video itself... I don't know what to make of mounted combat. Still in alpha according to Massivley with only 7 weeks to go, it doesn't really inspire confidence

No, according to Massively, the version they PLAYED on was an alpha version. There can be and probably is a major difference between what version they currently have built and what they are allowed to let reviewers play with.

Originally Posted by GregJL

No, according to Massively, the version they PLAYED on was an alpha version. There can be and probably is a major difference between what version they currently have built and what they are allowed to let reviewers play with.

True, it COULD be a difference. But if you were a company that invited a test to your product, knowing that the test results would go public. Wouldn't you then provide that person with the latest product? So giving a tester a build that is still in alpha when it's 7 weeks until launch, it's not the best bussines practice, especially if you have a more recent build available. Now, there might have been updates to the build post testing, we just don't know. But even so the fact remains, it was tested on an alpha build 7 weeks prior to launch.
Personally if i'd have an alpha and a beta build available I'd be pushing the beta for testers, if nothing else just to be able to say it's in beta. Even if it was changed from alpha to beta the day after the tests were conducted it still leaves only 7 weeks to beta test a combat system that is a major selling point in this expansion. Can you see what my problem with this is?

A lot of video with little information. It certainly did not cause me to want to pre-order. In fact, it actually lessened my desire to pre-order. It appeared to me that damage could be done well beyond a weapon's true range. There is already too much of that in the game. This expansion should be used to fix that, not make it worse.
Before I would buy this expansion I would need to know exactly how it works. This video gave almost no information about how classes would be affected by mounted combat. There was no information given about how RoR would be playable dismounted other than it would be "hard". To be honest, mounted combat has little appeal to me. If I want mounted combat, I will play Mount & Blade. I can guarantee you RoR will not be nearly as good at mounted combat as M&B is. If this expansion requires a player to be mounted to be able to get through it, then I will not be buying it unless it drops to a much lower price.
From the video it appeared that a rider can demolish a ground-hugger quite easily. This seems reasonable but it is not. In reality the ground-hugger should be able to shoot the rider or his mount or use a pike to kill or dismount the rider, but I doubt it will happen that way. As usual, it will take so many missiles or spells to kill a rider or mount that the ground-hugger will be killed before he can release what is needed. Will there be pikes or halberds that can dismount or kill a rider with one hit? I do not know. Probably not because I think they are trying to make this a riders only area. I could be wrong. The video had so little information.