EU ruling: resale of digital download licenses is legal
Court of Justice of EU has ruled that "An author of software cannot oppose the resale of his ‘used’ licences allowing the use of his programs downloaded from the internet."
Sure, digital download keys would be up for grabs, so to speak, however MMOs still wouldn't fall into this category simply because of one slight detail. MMOs, while they do offer a base program, don't truly sell you the game, they are actually selling you the lease to an account, and the accounts still remain the sole property of whomever runs the MMO. In this case, you could resell LOTRO (but would be rather pointless), but you wouldn't get very far because the CD key used is tied to your account, which is a lease obtained via Turbine to play on the servers.
In a roundabout way, any game that requires a user account will almost likely be exempt from any possible laws that may come about from the ruling, and those types of games are increasing at a rather high rate.
Give a guy a pound of gold...he'll complain about how heavy it is. Enmity of Forum Trolls: 106/5000Of the Egaads clan
Sure, digital download keys would be up for grabs, so to speak, however MMOs still wouldn't fall into this category simply because of one slight detail. MMOs, while they do offer a base program, don't truly sell you the game, they are actually selling you the lease to an account, and the accounts still remain the sole property of whomever runs the MMO. In this case, you could resell LOTRO (but would be rather pointless), but you wouldn't get very far because the CD key used is tied to your account, which is a lease obtained via Turbine to play on the servers.
In a roundabout way, any game that requires a user account will almost likely be exempt from any possible laws that may come about from the ruling, and those types of games are increasing at a rather high rate.
If I recall correctly, normal software and typical games give you a licence to run and use the software. You don't own XP, Vista, 7 etc... but you have a licence to use the software.
I'm not sure how MMOs are any different apart from it being more awkward to resell because of account binding but that strikes me as being non-compliant actually. Otherwise, Microsoft for instance could just introduce Office user accounts in the next version, bind product keys to them and require users to log in each time they launch Microsoft Office.
That left void at least in europe all the agreements that the Eula could contain about it and force Turbine to allow the resale of lotro accounts.
And in the wording the rule is clear as whater about it:
“Therefore, even if the licence agreement prohibits a further transfer, the rightholder can no longer oppose the resale of that copy. “
The question to Turbine its easy:
Is going Turbine to comply with this new european legislation and allow the private resale of the accounts of Lotro?
With one hand Korea bans botting, while Brussels again sticks is hand somewhere and makes it easy for RMT's to make a profit again. If this stands expect to see a lot of eastern European multi boxers leveling accounts clogging up the servers.
Gold seller spam will be a minor headache compared to this.
With one hand Korea bans botting, while Brussels again sticks is hand somewhere and makes it easy for RMT's to make a profit again. If this stands expect to see a lot of eastern European multi boxers leveling accounts clogging up the servers.
Gold seller spam will be a minor headache compared to this.
Maybe someone would purchase an "empty" account without content and lv75 characters that a chinesse thu a proxy in europe levels paying 0, but in the end i suppose would first purchase an old account (maybe one like the mine, a lifer account with over then thousand points and then characters with all the content and extras purchased).
And i suppose that the court want to defend is the people that expend hunders of euros in the licence that he purchased and now didnt want, to be able to resale the licence to get back some of the money.
NEW EU LAW TO CHANGE DIGITAL DISTRIBUTION – VIDEO GAMES UPDATE
Posted By: Gordon Miles
Category: Fantasy Sports News Bettor.com
New European law gives gamers the right to resell their downloaded games. What does this mean for digital distribution services like Steam and Origin?
The main advantage of digital distribution to publishers was that there were no second hand sales but this will change now, if only in Europe after the new EU law which gives gamers the right to sell what they have purchased. Corporations like Electronic Arts and Valve will have to comply if they want to continue trading in Europe.
This news comes right after Electronic Arts prediction that digital distribution is the ‘inevitable’ future. Maybe they are going to rethink that strategy now that digital distribution might not be as profitable for them as they thought it would be.
Currently there is no way available on Steam or Origin for gamers to resell their games. Some users are arguing that even though Steam is legally obligated to allow users to resell games, they are not obligated to facilitate the sale. Therefore gamers who want to sell games might have to arrange the financial transactions amongst themselves and then request Steam or Origin support to transfer their game to the buyer.
Although this might get messy for steam and it will be better if they just facilitate the service to save themselves from future head-aches and lawsuits from disgruntled gamers.
Another way this ruling might turn out to be a mess is that some games are locked to a gamers’ master account. This means that publishers of the game will have to deal with removing the game from the seller’s account and then attaching it to another account. Lots of additional work and headaches for developers lay ahead unless they develop a user friendly system to facilitate the used game sales.
There are already threads on Valve’s Steam and Electronic Art’s Origin forums demanding that the companies update their respective software to allow gamers to resell the games that they have bought. Many gamers are looking forward to getting rid of their ‘buyers’ remorse’ titles from their digital game libraries.
Currently there has been no response from either of the two companies but users can be sure that they are working hard to find a way out of this. One possible solution they can do to turn this around is charging users a small percentage of the selling price as a fee for them facilitating the sale. Those gamers not interested in paying the distributor can arrange the financial transaction themselves.
The judgement is about software (like Windows, Office, Photoshop).
The game account, which grants access the gane servers, is something like a service contract instead.
The game data, in this case, the account, is not "programs downloaded from the internet". You never download your account. You download the game client, which is free, so who cares?
If the creator of this topic had read the entirety of the court referee he would have known that the referee doesnt talk about selling accounts or such ..
but the possiblities for someone that did buy a VALID LICENCE, to resell it once he doesnt use it anymore.
As far as i Know and remember, i didnt buy any "valid licence" to play LOTRO F2P
- But , in the case of LOTRO P2P, or any other P2P game, you can now, resell your activation key ( corresponding to your account) if you dont use it anymore.
(As far as i am concerned, that means many oracle 8,9 and 10 bought some years ago buy my entity can now be resold to entity needing them)
Nice european referee, but it only concerns products with a licence, so F2P cant be counted in it..
- but we will be able to buy second hand keys for some P2P games now, and resell them if the game doesnt pleases us... Blizzard.; be sure to change the laws regarding your account policy on battle.net.
Massively says this:
----------------------
"While the precise wording might be confusing for those members of the audience not versed in legalese, the upshot is that services such as Steam must allow a way for users to sell their existing games to others, even if the EULA forbids it. This precedent could easily extend to resale of game accounts, since the key used to activate your Star Wars: The Old Republic account qualifies as a license enabling play of the game. No word yet on whether or not this will extend to the US, where many of the game companies in question are based."
----------------------
From the actual ruling:
“an author of software cannot oppose the resale of his ‘used’ licences allowing the use of his programs downloaded from the internet“.
As far as I can tell your game account is "The licence" to use the game.
Last edited by enginekid; Jul 05 2012 at 08:22 AM.
As far as i Know and remember, i didnt buy any "valid licence" to play LOTRO F2P
This also serve to Amrundir and RandomLetters answers:
I purchased a licence of lotro back in the 2007, i upgraded that licence with a buch of aditional products (Lifer, Moria, etc...) that's the same licence that allow me to play Lotro.
Point 1: 1. Limited License. The Game Client is licensed, not sold.
That's what the court rule, that the license now could be sold to another person.
First subpoint of the same license point, the one that forbide you to sell the license:
a. You may not sell, license or transfer the Game Client, or any reproductions thereof, to any person or entity;
That's what the court abide that it's illegal to impose, now that clausule in europe is invalid.
And to clarify RandomLetters , lotro ftp isn't free. I expend money on expansions, on content, on Tp points, etc.. that have a monetary value that could now be sold.
To Ellemere:
Yes, i own my account. There are even european court resolutions that abide that the steal of a digital item in a game (not gameplay thru) is the same that steal a phisical item with a value to the owner of the account, and the offender could be accused of thievery.
Point 1: 1. Limited License. The Game Client is licensed, not sold.
That's what the court rule, that the license now could be sold to another person.
If you sell the game client then you would sell something that can be downloaded for free anyway.
I do not think that legally game client = account at all within the scope of that ruling.
If Turbine sold the client (which they do not but e.g. Guild Wars 2 or SWTOR do) then you would have a point.
However Turbine's lawyers surely will take a good look at all this and once they have a decision you will hear something official from Turbine.
“an author of software cannot oppose the resale of his ‘used’ licences allowing the use of his programs downloaded from the internet“.
You downloaded lotro from the internet, and your game account is the license to play it.
For a game such as Lotro the game client is free to download and distribute. You do not get any licence to download it or email it to a friend. The game account itself is "The licence" to use the game.
The supreme court ruled you can sell your "used license", which would be the account in this case would it not?
If you sell the game client then you would sell something that can be downloaded for free anyway.
I do not think that legally game client = account at all within the scope of that ruling.
If Turbine sold the client (which they do not but e.g. Guild Wars 2 or SWTOR do) then you would have a point.
In Swtor (and could be said the same for almost any MMo) you didn't purchase the license to use the client, for example you could enter in betas (free clients), could enter for trial accounts (less than level x), you could enter in free or welcomeback days, etc...
The license to play the game have nothing to do with the client, for example in swtor you could download the client and install it is as many machines you want without purchase the game like all the MMos that i known, but you couldn't play the game withoout the license.
Originally Posted by monk_tbd
However Turbine's lawyers surely will take a good look at all this and once they have a decision you will hear something official from Turbine.
I seriously doubt that we will ever hear something from Turbine, i would bet that they will try to get the issue burried and threaten with an account ban anyone that want to execute what the law allow him (and i have an example in the ban threats when people ask for refunds in the RoR quest pack issue)
----------------------------------------
End User License Agreement
TURBINE, INC.
THE LORD OF THE RINGS ONLINE™
END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT
Last updated: June 28, 2010
1. Limited License. The Game Client is licensed, not sold. Subject to your agreement to and continued compliance with the terms and conditions of this EULA, Turbine hereby grants to you a limited, revocable, non-exclusive license to (a) download and install the Game Client onto a personal computer owned by you, and (b) use the Game Client in conjunction with the Game Server for your non-commercial entertainment purposes only. The foregoing license does not permit you to do any of the following, and you agree that the violation of any of the following license limitations will constitute an infringement of Turbine’s copyrights:
a. You may not sell, license or transfer the Game Client, or any reproductions thereof, to any person or entity;
--------------------------------------
This Eula will be changed pursuant to the new law in Europe and will read something like:
a. You may not sell, license or transfer the Game Client, or any reproductions thereof, to any person or entity; unless you reside in Europe :-)
“an author of software cannot oppose the resale of his ‘used’ licences allowing the use of his programs downloaded from the internet“.
You downloaded lotro from the internet, and your game account is the license to play it.
For a game such as Lotro the game client is free to download and distribute. You do not get any licence to download it or email it to a friend. The game account itself is "The licence" to use the game.
The supreme court ruled you can sell your "used license", which would be the account in this case would it not?
Actually the License is tied to the key used to activate the product not the account in and of itself. The most likely outcome of this ruling is game companies will develop a way to detach the license key from the user account, perhaps even automated in some way. With no license key the game account becomes locked until an new valid license key is attached to it, and the newly detached key becomes valid for use to attach to another new or existing account. This would still satisfy the rule of the court while maintaining the account and it's associated data as a rented commodity owned by the company and lent to the user.
How this will wrap down to extended expansion keys I'm not sure, but you can bet that it will be figured out by very clever people.
edit: Added thought:
In the case of some F2P scenarios, if no license key is provided, then the software does not require license per se to use or activate, and the account cannot be construed to be an defacto license. The account is a method to store individual user data at that point and thus would remain the commodity of the company and still lent to the user.
Last edited by Iktomi; Jul 05 2012 at 09:54 AM.
Reason: Added thought
One thing of which I am absolutely certain. There will be a lot of billable hours being logged by lawyers all over the world sorting this out - and prices to access MMOGs will likely go up to cover the costs for the game companies.
Companies should refuse. The EU population would be pretty pissed that they can't use digital distribution anymore. It would change quickly.
This, I agree with. If I was Steam or any other software publisher, I would forego an initial loss and not do business in EU. See how long it takes for the whiny gamers to call their government corrupt and start petitions to turn the decision around so they can get their games.
Because it's not gonna be worth the trouble dealing with all these support tickets.
This, I agree with. If I was Steam or any other software publisher, I would forego an initial loss and not do business in EU. See how long it takes for the whiny gamers to call their government corrupt and start petitions to turn the decision around so they can get their games.
Because it's not gonna be worth the trouble dealing with all these support tickets.
What about all the software they have already sold
Also there are a lot more people living the the EU than the US, so it would be a huge loss.
It is about time people stood up to large companies that think they are covered by the EULA but they arent in all cases. Perhaps the US should look at the EU consumer protection laws at start to follow then and maybe then we would get treated better
Companies should refuse. The EU population would be pretty pissed that they can't use digital distribution anymore. It would change quickly.
I don't understand why it is not a good thing that consumers can resell things they buy. What is your opinion on selling a car you bought? Why is it different for that car and a game? You may have a point that an MMO is different from a simple car transaction in some ways, but your post sounds like you don't think any games at all should be resold.
Originally Posted by Iktomi
Actually the License is tied to the key used to activate the product not the account in and of itself. The most likely outcome of this ruling is game companies will develop a way to detach the license key from the user account, perhaps even automated in some way. With no license key the game account becomes locked until an new valid license key is attached to it, and the newly detached key becomes valid for use to attach to another new or existing account. This would still satisfy the rule of the court while maintaining the account and it's associated data as a rented commodity owned by the company and lent to the user.
How this will wrap down to extended expansion keys I'm not sure, but you can bet that it will be figured out by very clever people.
edit: Added thought:
In the case of some F2P scenarios, if no license key is provided, then the software does not require license per se to use or activate, and the account cannot be construed to be an defacto license. The account is a method to store individual user data at that point and thus would remain the commodity of the company and still lent to the user.
I do not believe the product key has anything to do with the license as it stands now, especially since you don't even need a key anymore. Even when they were still using keys, they were described as:
"<snip> The product key above is required to activate your account. <snip>"
(from the account screen, "Where can I find my product key")
Sounds like the key was simply to activate the account, and not part of the license to play, especially since one made an account, THEN were shown the EULA instead of adding the key and being shown the EULA before creating the account. I expect the way the law was written, that the MMO companies can do exactly as you describe and divorce the account from the license in some way. I merely wanted to point out that as it stands now, it does not appear that the account is segregated from the license.
I think that eventually more precise wording will come about to force companies to allow resale of digitally owned media. I think of it this way: I paid real money for all the quest packs, character upgrades, bank slots, and so forth for my account. Why am I not allowed to recoup that cost when I have decided I no longer wish to use it? If I had a car that I decked out, bought a spoiler, chrome rims, new tires, etc, I am allowed to sell it. What is the difference between the car and rights to digital content that I purchased? What would be your response if the car companies tried to force an EULA on every new car purchase that banned reselling that car. If you didn't want that car anymore, you would have to park it somewhere and buy a different one. Sound ridiculous?
There is still a license even for F2P. In fact, ALL software has a license even if it's just the General Public License.
We tend to become like the worst in those we oppose.
It is about time people stood up to large companies that think they are covered by the EULA but they arent in all cases. Perhaps the US should look at the EU consumer protection laws at start to follow then and maybe then we would get treated better
Yeah, it baffles me why anyone would desire things to stay as they are.
When I bought a game 30 years ago I could re-sell it. When I buy anything, I can resell it. That's been the natural law of the world forever. Since things became digital corporations have used their power and influence to get around this.
You all forget the one thing that matters the most here. Turbine is an American company and is only bound by the laws of the USA even though they deal with an international product.
1. Limited License. The Game Client is licensed, not sold. Subject to your agreement to and continued compliance with the terms and conditions of this EULA, Turbine hereby grants to you a limited, revocable, non-exclusive license to (a) download and install the Game Client onto a personal computer owned by you, and (b) use the Game Client in conjunction with the Game Server for your non-commercial entertainment purposes only. The foregoing license does not permit you to do any of the following, and you agree that the violation of any of the following license limitations will constitute an infringement of Turbine’s copyrights:
The license granted herein confers no title or ownership in the Game (including without limitation the Game Client) and should not be construed as a sale of any rights to the Game. All right, title and interest in and to the Game and any and all copies thereof (including without limitation any and all titles, computer code, technology, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialog, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, music, etc.) are owned by Turbine or its licensors.
3. Ownership. You agree that, between you and Turbine, Turbine owns and shall continue to own all rights, title and interest in and to the Game, all copies thereof, and all content therein. The Game is protected by the copyright laws of the United States, international treaties and other laws. The Game may contain materials licensed by third parties, and the licensors of those materials are third party beneficiaries of this Agreement with the right to enforce their rights against you if you violate this Agreement.
d. Governing Law. Except as expressly provided otherwise, this Agreement shall be governed by, and will be construed under, the Laws of the United States of America and the law of the State of California, without regard to choice of law principles. The application of the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods is expressly excluded. Those who choose to access the Game Server from locations outside of the United States do so on their own initiative and are responsible for compliance with local laws if and to the extent local laws are applicable.
So that would be a no you can't sell your account well i guess you can if you want to be banned and have it deleted.
We might be or might not be able to sell our accounts, but I think under the EU court rule one can now sell a license that is bought. In my case this includes my lifetime membership and all the expansions since Moria. I had to use a license key to activate them, so that qualifies.
Izzban, if you want to sell them, buy physical copies. Otherwise you have nothing to sell. This is only going to make the price of games go way up. Companies like Steam will have to spend money developing ways for us to sell digital copies of games. Game companies will compensate for the lost revenue by charging more for new games. This is how it works.
You bought the games knowing that they couldn't be sold. The companies selling them are very up front about this. It isn't like the used games will be any cheaper than Steams typical sales and lowering of cost over time anyways. It is just taking money from those making games and giving it to kids that won't be creating more content, or newer games. If you had a problem with this, why did you support it in the first place? I believe in freedom for companies just as much as I believe in personal freedom. If you don't like how a company operates, don't give them your money. If their ways are really that bad, no one will give them money until they change their ways.
Also, companies have already put out a way to get around this. If you go buy certain games used, my last one being Need for Speed, you then have to pay for the online pass after starting the game. They just charge you after you pick up the used game.
Last edited by Cirgellon; Jul 05 2012 at 11:21 AM.
You all forget the one thing that matters the most here. Turbine is an American company and is only bound by the laws of the USA even though they deal with an international product.
So that would be a no you can't sell your account well i guess you can if you want to be banned and have it deleted.
Remember when some Chinese toys had lead paint and they were not allowed to sell them in the USA?
My point is, you can't make a product and take it to a foreign country to sell and then tell that foreign country how they will deal with that product.
Now I am no expert in international law, but reason suggests that companies can't operate independant of the laws of the country they are dealing in just because they come from another country. Maybe there is someone who deals with this sort of thing in their line of work who can shed some more light on that excellent point Depher brought up.
We tend to become like the worst in those we oppose.
You all forget the one thing that matters the most here. Turbine is an American company and is only bound by the laws of the USA even though they deal with an international product.
That is not true. Turbine have to follow EU law to trade in the EU. Look at the terms and conditions when buying RoR and you will see differences between the the EU and the US
So that would be a no you can't sell your account well i guess you can if you want to be banned and have it deleted.
TURBINE, INC.
THE LORD OF THE RINGS ONLINE™
END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT
Last updated: June 28, 2010
3. Ownership. You agree that, between you and Turbine, Turbine owns and shall continue to own all rights, title and interest in and to the Game, all copies thereof, and all content therein. The Game is protected by the copyright laws of the United States, international treaties and other laws. The Game may contain materials licensed by third parties, and the licensors of those materials are third party beneficiaries of this Agreement with the right to enforce their rights against you if you violate this Agreement.
d. Governing Law. Except as expressly provided otherwise, this Agreement shall be governed by, and will be construed under, the Laws of the United States of America and the law of the State of California, without regard to choice of law principles. The application of the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods is expressly excluded. Those who choose to access the Game Server from locations outside of the United States do so on their own initiative and are responsible for compliance with local laws if and to the extent local laws are applicable.
Yeah, it baffles me why anyone would desire things to stay as they are.
When I bought a game 30 years ago I could re-sell it. When I buy anything, I can resell it. That's been the natural law of the world forever. Since things became digital corporations have used their power and influence to get around this.
It's about time things went back to normal.
When you bought something 30 years ago, you knew you could resell it. When you buy games now, you know you can't. Big difference. You made the purchase, knowing what that meant. It's not like they hid the fact that you could not resell.
To have a law made to benefit you (not YOU you, but people this affects in general) after acknowledging and agreeing with the rules of said services is just petty and reeks of crybaby-ism because you want something your way after being okay with it in the first place. If you didn't like the EULA, you shouldn't have used the service.
You bought the games knowing that they couldn't be sold. The companies selling them are very up front about this. It isn't like the used games will be any cheaper than Steams typical sales and lowering of cost over time anyways. It is just taking money from those making games and giving it to kids that won't be creating more content, or newer games. If you had a problem with this, why did you support it in the first place? I believe in freedom for companies just as much as I believe in personal freedom. If you don't like how a company operates, don't give them your money. If their ways are really that bad, no one will give them money until they change their ways.
It doesnt matter how upfront they are about it, the law is the law and all companies are not above it, even if many think they are.
That is not true. Turbine have to follow EU law to trade in the EU. Look at the terms and conditions when buying RoR and you will see differences between the the EU and the US
Note the section at the bottom of the EU T&C regarding distant selling regulation in the EU
Yes if you read it it says that the governing laws are US unless other wise stated but you failed to read the rest of it that explains you didn't "purchase" a license to play and that turbine owns everything involved. Im not a lawyer or anything but i can read in black and white what i agreed to. The ruling your are quoting is dealing with software that you purchased and is allowing you under the law to transfer or resell. A turbine account is not free standing software besides if you read the ToS turbine actually retains ownership of your account even though you use it.
It doesnt matter how upfront they are about it, the law is the law and all companies are not above it, even if many think they are.
It wasn't the law when you purchased it. It isn't the law in the United States. You all better watch your demands. These companies don't have to do business in the EU. It would hurt them at first, but I guarantee you that they would get their way.
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