Thread: Ettenmoors one-sided

Reading the thread title you'd probably think i am going to complain about freeps being op (which they are).
However the problem in the moors is actually that freeps are too weak.
With only subscribed players being able to enter the moors on freep side they are horribly outnumbered. On the servers i play creeps, the map is completely red 98% of the time. This situation is bad for both sides as i can't find any opponents on creep side and freeps don't stand a chance of really affecting the map. This means less full scale battles over keeps and more ninjaing / ganking. Many creeps just log in to look/ask how many freeps are online and leave again if there aren't many, so the moors have a potential to draw in a lot more players.

As i see it the best solution for everyone would be to allow F2P freeps to enter the moors 7days per month. That way the balance wouldn't topple the other way towards a all blue map all the time and it still would be a good incentive for people to buy the subscription. Maybe even more so, as they can take a good look at the PvMP which is imo the best part of the game.

I think it best to just allow everyone to PvP, regardless of subscription type. PvP is a gamestyle and it should be a right, not a privilege. For a great company like Turbine to actually make people pay to PvP, I think that's actually affecting the PvP environment massively and the assumption that free-to-play characters are 'noobs' at PvP is just silly, and that's Turbine making the assumption by not allowing them to PvP.

Just saying. There shouldn't be a time limit. Free-to-play players must be granted the same PvP benefits as VIPs because I don't see anything 'pro' about being a PvPer, just elitist.

Finaly it has come to this. We f2p are bored just running around map (no questpacks instances no nothing).Freep want more then anything to go into moors.It would be fair to let f2p it wont be same as VIPs since they get all.I dont like the time limit idea but if that is only way I would accept it.FIGHT ON

Originally Posted by Mephistophelis

I think it best to just allow everyone to PvP, regardless of subscription type. PvP is a gamestyle and it should be a right, not a privilege. For a great company like Turbine to actually make people pay to PvP, I think that's actually affecting the PvP environment massively and the assumption that free-to-play characters are 'noobs' at PvP is just silly, and that's Turbine making the assumption by not allowing them to PvP.

Just saying. There shouldn't be a time limit. Free-to-play players must be granted the same PvP benefits as VIPs because I don't see anything 'pro' about being a PvPer, just elitist.

Funniest thing I have read on the forums. Ever.

What does that sopposed to mean mjk47?F2P should go into moors as freep

Look, the whole point of "Free to Play" is that it isn't. You get free access to some stuff, setting you up to buy more stuff with TP and/or real money. It's the real money WB is interested in. I suspect that WB isn't making much money off the Moors in any case, but they're certainly not going to give it away for free when some people can still be persuaded to pay for it.

Do I need to quote the definition of TANSTAAFL again?

Originally Posted by elves257

What does that sopposed to mean mjk47?F2P should go into moors as freep

1. "Rights" have absolutely nothing to do with games.

2. F2P have to have restrictions. As djh points out, there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Originally Posted by mjk47

1. "Rights" have absolutely nothing to do with games.

2. F2P have to have restrictions. As djh points out, there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Thank you, mjk; you have saved me the bother of getting up and finding my copy of TMiaHM to quote from.

On my server the freeps control the map most of North American evenings and a great cry of anguish goes up if a freep group starts keep flipping (except for TR), for the same reasons you cited. The other night my kin even flipped to creep as the creeps were already facing massive odds against the freeps and it was an attempt to balance out the numbers.

But as noted, in the hybrid model that Turbine uses, there have to be incentives for people to want to spend money on a regular basis (subscription) or otherwise purchase TP on a regular basis. Since this is the weekly thread of "let the f2p in the moors on their freeps" you may want to search out previous threads for more commentary.

i should say that, even though the freeps are outnumbered, they're not outpowered. 50% (just a rough estimate) of the creeps out there are underpowered, underskilled, and lack the abitlity to do more than die. So really, adding more freeps, which i would love, by the way (i've got a guardian ive wanted to try out), just makes the odds one-sided again, only the one side is the good guys. Also, it fits the lore. Masses of pathetic creeps, small group of strong, loyal warriors that hold out against the stacking odds. It sounds fun on paper. If this idea were implemented, lots of monster players would drop out because of the impossible odds. They would just switch to freeps and wreak havoc. Personally, i love the idea, but there are some downsides. Perhaps if it were the same week each month, like "Ettenmoors week". Each week a month, everyone who wants may enter the moors as much as they want for the month.

I am not a VIP, but I still agree that VIP players need to get some major benefits over F2P since they spend $100+ a year while F2P play for free. I think Turbine should make PvP time buyable for TP, like Skirmish Soldier on Landscape kind of thing. of course, that might be as much as getting VIP for the month. If they could limit the amount you get a month, it could work.

VIP get benefits like quest packs tp and other.After I passed epic it got realy boring.Give f2p some fun.F2P should be allowed.VIP after that still would be getting much more.Moors should be free.

I checked some other games and they all got pvp free(not to tell whole game).What is in this????
I get bored but this is great game and turbine and WB are selfish.

As a F2Per who loves both LOTRO and LOTR in general, I would like to see F2Pers able to access the Entenmoors and have some fun PvPing. At least put it in the TP Store like a quest pack, arround the 590 mark where the other quest packs are around.
Its just annoying that my kin is trying to organise PvMP runs and to get the entire Kin involved we have to make a Mp equivalent of our kin because so many of our kin members are F2P.

Originally Posted by Storm-Winterwolf

As a F2Per who loves both LOTRO and LOTR in general, I would like to see F2Pers able to access the Entenmoors and have some fun PvPing. At least put it in the TP Store like a quest pack, arround the 590 mark where the other quest packs are around.
Its just annoying that my kin is trying to organise PvMP runs and to get the entire Kin involved we have to make a Mp equivalent of our kin because so many of our kin members are F2P.

Make it 590/month and it might make some sense.

I dont know the numbers but i have seen far to many "x" is over powered "x" is unbalanced ... threads . It is what it is and i doubt the developers are going to change much. what you are seeing is perhaps the way thing run on your server mine i know tends to flip flop some days its freep centric some days its creep centric. I am not a big supporter of PVMP at all so all i can say is that, unless turbine has undisclosed plans for the Ror expansion version of the moors the creeps will most likely auto level to the new cap of 85 the day of release and the poor beknighted freps will be behind the 8 ball for a week or so till they can level and gear up. Do the PVmPers deserve some love? Yes they do Should they get some love yes. But remember that asking for a change means calling the Mighty NERF hammer down on both sides for the sake of"balance" and that always bleeds over to the non-pvmp players in ways we so tend not ot like.

Originally Posted by elves257

VIP get benefits like quest packs tp and other.After I passed epic it got realy boring.Give f2p some fun.F2P should be allowed.VIP after that still would be getting much more.Moors should be free.

I checked some other games and they all got pvp free(not to tell whole game).What is in this????
I get bored but this is great game and turbine and WB are selfish.

The moors is free, play your freaver.

And pot, meet kettle when it comes to selfish.

Playing a monster player when you want to go on your freep is like eating a snake when you want cake

You can go on your freep, you just need to subscribe. Turbine makes the rules when it comes to the game, and those are the current rules. Maybe they'll change some day, dunno, but if you want to go that badly, why not subscribe, it sounds like a good use of $10 to get many hours of enjoyment.

Perhaps if it were the same week each month, like "Ettenmoors week".

That wouldn't work out very well. Everyone would want to try their freep out in the moors that week, including those who usually play creep-side. Creating an imbalance that favors freeps that one week and creeps afterwards.
No, if there is a time limit it HAS to be dynamic to not create population spikes.


I like the idea of buying the Ettens / time for it with TP (although 7 days / month still is better). Everything else in the game works that way. I don't see why not the moors in the first place.

Please, just subscribe, and leave the forum for better threads!!

Originally Posted by Zaav

As i see it the best solution for everyone would be to allow F2P freeps to enter the moors 7days per month.

IIRC - Turbine stated the reason Freeps can not enter the Moors as F2P is that that Turbine could not find a good way to monetize Freep access via the Lotro Store. Currently the rental cost is 10 - 15 dollars for 30 days access. 15 dollars is 1,500 points. That is 50 points for a day. Perhaps Turbine might consider a day pass for 50-100 Turbine Points.

Going 100 Turbine Points for a day pass (24 hours real time) means that you get a new discount if you are willing to spend real dollars buying Game Time. Although customers will likely complain and desire a 50 Turbine Point price point.

The way the it is set up creeps have all the advantages, and they have a gang mentality up their, I have and others have ben attacked by 5 to 10 creeps to one, not exactly even odds in any shape or form

Originally Posted by Paco105

The way the it is set up creeps have all the advantages, and they have a gang mentality up their, I have and others have ben attacked by 5 to 10 creeps to one, not exactly even odds in any shape or form

Depends on which server you play on. On mine, freeps have a gang mentality just the same.
But no, creeps do not have all the advantages. They have a disadvantage in mitigations, in healing, in avoidance and an incredibly large disadvantage in DPS. They have an advantage in morale (except against Guardians and Wardens ofc), which kind of doesn't mean anything without proper mitigations, and certainly doesn't mean anything against their counterpart's DPS.

Originally Posted by elves257

and turbine and WB are selfish.

Turbine and Warner Brothers are businesses out to make a profit. They are not here for charity.

I think it would be nice if they came up with a way to let F2P freeps on the moors in a limited fashion. Nice for the F2P freeps to get to try it out as freeps. Nice for the Moors in that more population is generally desirable (except for the lag that results). However, it is "nice" for Turbine only if they can come up with a way to monetize occasional visits to moors by F2P Freeps. From Turbine's point of view, would be found money ONLY IF it doesn't cannibalize VIP subscriptions or discourage folks from going VIP. But selling tokens that give, say, 3 hours moors access seems like a potentially reasonable business model assuming a price can be arrived at that addresses the issues. Giving tokens away occasionally (lotteries, discounts, free sample of the week) might get folks who otherwise wouldn't try the Moors out there. Those who get hooked on Moors might become VIPs who wouldn't otherwise have done so.

Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

I think it would be nice if they came up with a way to let F2P freeps on the moors in a limited fashion. Nice for the F2P freeps to get to try it out as freeps. Nice for the Moors in that more population is generally desirable (except for the lag that results). However, it is "nice" for Turbine only if they can come up with a way to monetize occasional visits to moors by F2P Freeps. From Turbine's point of view, would be found money ONLY IF it doesn't cannibalize VIP subscriptions or discourage folks from going VIP. But selling tokens that give, say, 3 hours moors access seems like a potentially reasonable business model assuming a price can be arrived at that addresses the issues. Giving tokens away occasionally (lotteries, discounts, free sample of the week) might get folks who otherwise wouldn't try the Moors out there. Those who get hooked on Moors might become VIPs who wouldn't otherwise have done so.

It's not a bad idea, but so many f2p have posted here that they would really like to try the Moors as a freep - and some even think it's the best part of the game - yet won't spend $10-15/month to get many hours of play. I just don't see most of them converting to subscribers.

Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

I think it would be nice if they came up with a way to let F2P freeps on the moors in a limited fashion.

You can...any time you want. It will cost $15 for one month of access, $30 for 3 months of access, or $100 for a full year of access. All you have to do is decide how long you want your "sample" to last.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by whheydt

You can...any time you want. It will cost $15 for one month of access, $30 for 3 months of access, or $100 for a full year of access. All you have to do is decide how long you want your "sample" to last.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Too much logic in this post for these forums.

Originally Posted by whheydt

You can...any time you want. It will cost $15 for one month of access, $30 for 3 months of access, or $100 for a full year of access. All you have to do is decide how long you want your "sample" to last.

Where the "you" above isn't me, though you were responding to my post. I have a lifetime subscription, so the cost is moot to me.

That said, it might be in Turbines interests to get folks to try the moors as Freeps without going VIP. Not like the Moors is overcrowded for the most part, and getting people to try it with less commitment might well be a good idea for them.

Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

Where the "you" above isn't me, though you were responding to my post. I have a lifetime subscription, so the cost is moot to me.

That said, it might be in Turbines interests to get folks to try the moors as Freeps without going VIP. Not like the Moors is overcrowded for the most part, and getting people to try it with less commitment might well be a good idea for them.

If there were some way to try it out briefly, as an experiment, that might work. However, the PvMP players who are hoping that in such a case a *lot* of new players would come to the Moors, as freeps or creeps or whatever, might be disappointed.

Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise

Where the "you" above isn't me, though you were responding to my post. I have a lifetime subscription, so the cost is moot to me.

That said, it might be in Turbines interests to get folks to try the moors as Freeps without going VIP. Not like the Moors is overcrowded for the most part, and getting people to try it with less commitment might well be a good idea for them.

Ask yourself this... What is the advantage to Turbine? Those f2pers who want to "try out" the Ettenmoors are undoubtedly aware that they can get a month of VIP for $15 (and they get a bunch of other goodies, too), yet aren't willing to spend that modest amount. This makes it appear the that said f2pers are unwilling to spend money at all. The VIP requirement is the only "stick" Turbine has over the freep side of the Ettenmoors at present. If they abandon that "stick", how many VIPs (non-lifetime) who *do* engage in freepside PvMP will drop their subscriptions? How do you demonstrate that any new money generated by dropping the requirement will more than offset the subscription losses?

Whether the Ettenmoors are crowded or empty is probably all the same to Turbine, and if it isn't--it's all the same to their corporate overlords at WB. Comes to that...I'm sure WB wouldn't care if no one *ever* logged in...so long as the money comes in.

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

as a creep i dont want to see more eazymoders, which is going to happen cause the newbies die thinking we are npc instead of thinking we can walk, kite around them which after they group up and zerg everything

Originally Posted by Zaav

Reading the thread title you'd probably think i am going to complain about freeps being op (which they are).
However the problem in the moors is actually that freeps are too weak.
With only subscribed players being able to enter the moors on freep side they are horribly outnumbered. On the servers i play creeps, the map is completely red 98% of the time. This situation is bad for both sides as i can't find any opponents on creep side and freeps don't stand a chance of really affecting the map. This means less full scale battles over keeps and more ninjaing / ganking. Many creeps just log in to look/ask how many freeps are online and leave again if there aren't many, so the moors have a potential to draw in a lot more players.

As i see it the best solution for everyone would be to allow F2P freeps to enter the moors 7days per month. That way the balance wouldn't topple the other way towards a all blue map all the time and it still would be a good incentive for people to buy the subscription. Maybe even more so, as they can take a good look at the PvMP which is imo the best part of the game.

Perhaps introduce ettenmoor pvp instances for those that want that , since someone else mentioned about pvp instances in moors , probably that would solve everybody solution

Originally Posted by whheydt

Ask yourself this... What is the advantage to Turbine? Those f2pers who want to "try out" the Ettenmoors are undoubtedly aware that they can get a month of VIP for $15 (and they get a bunch of other goodies, too), yet aren't willing to spend that modest amount. This makes it appear the that said f2pers are unwilling to spend money at all. The VIP requirement is the only "stick" Turbine has over the freep side of the Ettenmoors at present. If they abandon that "stick", how many VIPs (non-lifetime) who *do* engage in freepside PvMP will drop their subscriptions? How do you demonstrate that any new money generated by dropping the requirement will more than offset the subscription losses?

Whether the Ettenmoors are crowded or empty is probably all the same to Turbine, and if it isn't--it's all the same to their corporate overlords at WB. Comes to that...I'm sure WB wouldn't care if no one *ever* logged in...so long as the money comes in.

The moors has some nice store consumables, so the business model for getting folks out there seems clear enough to me. And the value proposition, for someone interested in the Moors alone for the VIP subscription is terrible ($15 a month just for the Moors?). You consider $15/month a "modest" amount. And to you and to me for that matter it is. But for those who are on the F2P side, that is lots of money indeed. Not at all a "micro" transaction which is the heart of the F2P model. It is a high barrier of entry for those who want to try the Moors, or play in it occasionally. Hence my belief that it would be good if there was a way to pay to play the moors occasionally, or to have "free" weekends occasionally, etc, to let people see if they like it without the high cost. And a way to sever the Moors play from needing the full $15, if Turbine can figure out that is a reasonable revenue choice also seems like a good idea to me.

I expect little to happen, mind you, because the Moors is a side-show that attracts very little development effort. Which leads a bit to a circular situation -- low Moors population -> low Moors development -> not so desirable to play, repeat as needed. I'm mostly OK with that, have been out doing the Moors thing for a few months for a change, but generally prefer PvE for the long haul anyway. I do wish there was a bit more PvP development, because I think for some players at least there will never be enough PvE, and PvP can give more end game variety of experience while folks are waiting for the next content to be released...

Originally Posted by djheydt

If there were some way to try it out briefly, as an experiment, that might work. However, the PvMP players who are hoping that in such a case a *lot* of new players would come to the Moors, as freeps or creeps or whatever, might be disappointed.

A requirement for someone to become a PvMP player is to try it. What percentage of those who try it stick around is of course an open question, particularly if they have to pay for it in an ongoing way. But those who never try it obviously won't become involved.

I personally have played the game for 4 years, and only first tried PvMP 2 months ago because I wanted the Captain armor sets. Have been having fun since...

For one thing, if you make moors (Freepside) F2P then you are taking away one of the only special things VIP's still have. That isn't very fair to them.

For another thing, if you think Ettenmoors is one-sided now, just think of how it would be with even more op (as you said) Freeps running around. Lol I bet we would see mini/rk/warden packs running around everyday.

And for the record, I'm premium.

Originally Posted by Elilreth

as a creep i dont want to see more eazymoders, which is going to happen cause the newbies die thinking we are npc instead of thinking we can walk, kite around them which after they group up and zerg everything

^ This

Ezmoding would skyrocket with a free Freepside moors.

Originally Posted by Namesse

On my server the freeps control the map most of North American evenings and a great cry of anguish goes up if a freep group starts keep flipping (except for TR), for the same reasons you cited. The other night my kin even flipped to creep as the creeps were already facing massive odds against the freeps and it was an attempt to balance out the numbers.

It is exactly the same on my server and, apparently, many other servers as well. Freeps generally outnumber us (in the form of a raid) and when they don't, they generally have a group composed of Minnies/Wardens/Champs/Rks and can burn through our greater numbers with ease.

Originally Posted by Elilreth

as a creep i dont want to see more eazymoders, which is going to happen cause the newbies die thinking we are npc instead of thinking we can walk, kite around them which after they group up and zerg everything

Well, yes, that's the whole point of PvP, isn't it? You're fighting not the computer but another human who is (we'll assume) as smart as you. For those who like PvP, that's a "challenge." For someone like me, for whom fighting is a necessary but unappealing grind, like brushing your teeth, that's one of the reasons not to Pv[any kind of]P.

Originally Posted by Mephistophelis

PvP is a gamestyle and it should be a right, not a privilege

You have no rights where Turbine's property is concerned. If you want to go to the 'moors as a Freep ... pay for it.

Originally Posted by Livejazz

You have no rights where Turbine's property is concerned. If you want to go to the 'moors as a Freep ... pay for it.

True. + rep.