All right, so .. reading all of this, I think I'm finding that:
A: you still have to put as much effort into maxing your DPS as a champ as you always did. This means getting geared, reading the forums for skill rotations and suggestions (e.g. clobber usage in your rotation).
B: I can't focus on such effort as much since switching to my burg, which may explain why I'm not enjoying the champ.
C: I still don't like that we can only be red-line.
Champs may fully be able to dish out as much or more punishment than burgs (not my experience, but I'll accept it for the argument), I just don't care about them anymore.
A: That's true, but I guess the same goes for all classes if you want to utilize your toon to its fullest potential
B: Not much to say to that, other than have fun with your Burg =)
c: We can also be blue line (a fully geared Chank is more than just viable to fill the place of a main tank. And as for the burg ... well, how many lines can you actually be there?
c: We can also be blue line (a fully geared Chank is more than just viable to fill the place of a main tank. And as for the burg ... well, how many lines can you actually be there?
3
no, really. Pugs might not take me in any stance I choose, but... yeah, lots of viable builds, so long as you cap with a legendary skill
I am making both arguments, actually. I have yet to see a champ that can hold aggro off of me, and I run with raid-geared champs and I have a -10% threat debuff, and I'm in an end-game raiding kin with champs equally well-geared to me. Now, if you want to argue that our kin must have horrible champs, that's an argument I have no way of refuting, I just hope it's not true... or if you want to argue that I'm the best burg in the game and that's why my dps is higher... well, that's probably true, I'll accept your terms.
So you run with good Champs? That probably means that...wait for it...they use ebbing ire to dump aggro on the tank. A good champ shouldn't pull aggro unless a) its needed to move mobs around OR b) they get just a bit too far in their rotation before dumping aggro on the tank. Sure a champ COULD pull aggro, and some often do until they learn what ebbing ire is for (or they run with tanks that have excellent threat management skills) but that's a horrible way to compare DPS. If you want to compare DPS then grab CombatAnalysis and compare.
But I do find that in the old days my champ was simply useful more often. Firstly because it was clear we did great DPS; secondly, because we didn't really need to have burgs or LMs in the group to lock stuff down - the champ could handle it all. So, for instance, in SG we used to take 4 champs, a guard, and a minstrel. The 4 champs would blender everything down, and I, as the champ in charge of locking stuff down, would save my frenzy & horn for the moment when the summoners would start summoning. The champ interrupt was the best interrupt at one point in time (instead of having interrupts on just about every class), instead of being merely a dps-increasing utility, and there were times when it was actually good to trait yellow line (instead of having the highest dps being red-line-all-the-time...)
SG Champs were preferred because of the mechanic with the Brutes allowed you to AoE blender while the issue with incoming damage meant that having lots of heavies made it an easy run...conversely most BG runs would have very few Champs since (unless you were 2nd man/3rd man in front of Durchest) there was little use for them outside of the Gauntlet. Anyway that is getting back to the UTILITY argument. Some fights work better stacking lots of classes, other stacking lots of DPS, others need specific balances...and I do agree Burgs have more raid Utility BUT...BUT that is a separate issue from the DPS thing.
I'll not argue more on utility because I think each raid/instance and group is too individual to make more than broad brush statements but on the subject of straight up DPS I'm going to again say:
1) Aggro is a HORRIBLE way to gauge DPS.
2) If you want to gauge DPS in a fight grab CA and compare afterwards.
"We can deny our heritage and our history, but we cannot escape responsibility for the result...but we cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home. " - E R Murrow
1) Aggro is a HORRIBLE way to gauge DPS.
2) If you want to gauge DPS in a fight grab CA and compare afterwards.
1: all right, that's fair... except when they don't ebb... but whatever. I'll accept that they also may be reserving their dps to avoid pulling aggro, or to maintain power, etc...
2: CA isn't a fair comparison, either. If it calculated how much I was increasing the dps of others, then it might be... but it's not.
Anyway, all of this has completely derailed my original point. If I accept that I'm completely wrong about everything else, will you accept that it doesn't matter because:
A: champ still bores me to tears and
B: I'm sure that's true for others
Maybe I don't know WHY Champ stopped being interesting. It used to be. It's not now. I thought it was DPS and group utility, but apparently I'm a complete idiot about those two things. fine. There's still a reason it's boring. can we inquire as to what that might be?
Maybe I don't know WHY Champ stopped being interesting. It used to be. It's not now. I thought it was DPS and group utility, but apparently I'm a complete idiot about those two things. fine. There's still a reason it's boring. can we inquire as to what that might be?
Because deep down, you are not a Champ at heart. You are a Burg. It just took some time to find yourself.
Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
Because deep down, you are not a Champ at heart. You are a Burg. It just took some time to find yourself.
^^^ Pretty much sums it all up. Some classes are fun for folks others aren't. Gut feel (much like DW versus 2H versus hot swapping) is something that is unquantifiable.
"We can deny our heritage and our history, but we cannot escape responsibility for the result...but we cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home. " - E R Murrow
And really, coming to the realization that you just don't like a class is fine. I have tried Captain a few times and while some people really enjoy it, I don't. Not every class will appeal to everyone.
Reinold i think you misread my post yes i do a base 1700 dmg on galtrev dummy. That is no buffs on me except fervour. That is my base dps. Your arguement seems to be centered around raid usefulness. Which is where my post explained the champs role I do 3ks dps+ while TANKING the first giant in frost and fire. I do 800-900 dps while chanking the shadow boss. Two completely different tanking roles both equally fun. I parse in 2500dps range on boss just while dpsing with out blade brother and thats with only 2 burgs. I never run out of power and i can still hold great aoe damage. My survivability is probably double or triple that of a burgs if i do pull agro. I do pull tons of agro on trash as im usually tanking about half the trash on certain wings in my DPS build. If you like the role burgs play in a raid better thats great there is a burg forum for that discussion I however will never give up my champ because i love the versatiles roles i can play.
its funny and sad that no matter what anyone posts in any forum (not just lotro) there will be an onslaught of 50% haters and 50% agree with the OP (approx)... its no wonder companies got us by the short ones... we just accept and change to what we are given
I would totally agree that playing a Champ is kind of boring, and wouldn't have any finesse. It makes me always a bit sad, to look at my interface and to see these few skills i have. And i keep asking myself why they couldn't make it more of a challenge? With a few more skills maybe, not only for being able to diversify the playstyle, but also gain advantage of different rotations in different situations. In my beliefe it's the simplest class to master. But. Been to Foundry T2 last time with the Champ, and i remembered, why i'm stuck to this class for so long.
Being in the center of the battle and using Raging Blade.
It'll be enough for me for a few more months
And by the way, i think you'll have this 'it's getting boring'-issue on a few classes. Ever played a red rk?
I would totally agree that playing a Champ is kind of boring, and wouldn't have any finesse. It makes me always a bit sad, to look at my interface and to see these few skills i have. And i keep asking myself why they couldn't make it more of a challenge? With a few more skills maybe, not only for being able to diversify the playstyle, but also gain advantage of different rotations in different situations. In my beliefe it's the simplest class to master.
I'm not entirely convinced by your argument. The champ class is by far the easiest to learn to play it is, however, a totally different story when it comes to mastering it. There's lots of decent champs out there, true. But there's only a handful really good ones.
I haven't tried any other classes and don't think I am ever going to. Getting to 75, obtaining endgame gear, earning a high rank - all this takes LOTS of time. Sometimes I feel like I have squandered too much energy playing on my freep and creep already, not to mention rolling a new character.
I would totally agree that playing a Champ is kind of boring, and wouldn't have any finesse. It makes me always a bit sad, to look at my interface and to see these few skills i have.
Maybe you are not utilizing your class to its fullest extent then? We do have quite a lot of skills and I tend to use most of them frequently (it's not like half of our skills are just not used at all). It's also not like other DPS classes were awfully more sophisticated.
I'm not entirely convinced by your argument. The champ class is by far the easiest to learn to play it is, however, a totally different story when it comes to mastering it. There's lots of decent champs out there, true. But there's only a handful really good ones.
This x100.
Part of the issue is that, as a DPS class, it's hard to really know how good someone is unless you play the class well yourself and pay close attention to what they're doing right or wrong. Judging the quality of a tank is easy because aggro is so obvious (healers will also be able to tell how well the tank has built for survivability fairly easily). The skill of a healer is also pretty obvious. However, since there are usually several DPS classes in any given group, a weak link can be offset by other players doing better and one really good player can still mean slow DPS if the rest of the group is lagging behind.
A lot of not-so-great champs I've come across seem to slot some blue traits and stack morale, I suppose hoping that the increased survivability makes their lack of contribution to the group less of a strain as they at least don't need as much attention from the healers.
Edit: just started a burg the other day. He's currently only level 23, but I'm having loads of fun with him and expect that it'll be fantastic to play burg at endgame. However, as fun as it is to dump DPS into targets one at a time while you use all sorts of tools to keep adds out of your face, I just don't ever see that comparing with the pure joy of seeing giant yellow numbers flying off 5+ targets at once at a steady clip.
Part of the issue is that, as a DPS class, it's hard to really know how good someone is unless you play the class well yourself and pay close attention to what they're doing right or wrong. Judging the quality of a tank is easy because aggro is so obvious (healers will also be able to tell how well the tank has built for survivability fairly easily). The skill of a healer is also pretty obvious. However, since there are usually several DPS classes in any given group, a weak link can be offset by other players doing better and one really good player can still mean slow DPS if the rest of the group is lagging behind.
A lot of not-so-great champs I've come across seem to slot some blue traits and stack morale, I suppose hoping that the increased survivability makes their lack of contribution to the group less of a strain as they at least don't need as much attention from the healers.
Indeed, it's far easier to judge tanks and healers. Judging DPS is much harder, as someone doing abysmally low DPS with a Morale-stacking build can "hide" in a good raid group, as long as the content does not require each DPS to contribute to pull high DPS.
Edit: And it is annoying when some folks (especially healers) consider some DPS-ers "great" players because they stack morale and doesn't need much looking after in normal, easy instances--when they absolutely will fail in DPS race environment simply because they can't do their primary job.
Last edited by Miretocot; Jul 09 2012 at 10:57 AM.
The way of lotro is maximising your toon IMO. Not being good at dpsing is no longer viable for end game raiding. Everyone needs to be doing their part I don't think &&&& dps can hide in good raids anymore therefore not really a good arguement anymore IMO. Its noticeable when dps is low and a simple run of combat analysis keeps the dps in check. If anything i would say DPS is easier to measure now with the introduction of combat anaylsis.
I'm not entirely convinced by your argument. The champ class is by far the easiest to learn to play it is, however, a totally different story when it comes to mastering it. There's lots of decent champs out there, true. But there's only a handful really good ones.
Meh.
Ask anyone on Landroval. Before the update that brought us lvl 75, I was one of the really good ones. I could tell you exactly who on the server was my equal, and the list was very, very tiny (Onyx is one of them. don't tell him I said that). So I do have an idea of what it takes to be good at the class... or did, before skill changes. I just think that the class got extremely boring. Or maybe burg is just way more entertaining and I didn't discover the burg class until all the rest of my chars were at 65. Oh well, such is life.
I just think that the class got extremely boring. Or maybe burg is just way more entertaining and I didn't discover the burg class until all the rest of my chars were at 65. Oh well, such is life.
Could just be a personality thing. In six months you will be posting in the burg forums how boring the class is and how wonderful RKs are.
The way of lotro is maximising your toon IMO. Not being good at dpsing is no longer viable for end game raiding. Everyone needs to be doing their part I don't think &&&& dps can hide in good raids anymore therefore not really a good arguement anymore IMO. Its noticeable when dps is low and a simple run of combat analysis keeps the dps in check. If anything i would say DPS is easier to measure now with the introduction of combat anaylsis.
You can't measure someone else's DPS with CombatAnalysis. You can also easily do Draigoch, Orthanc T1 and even Lightning T2C with dead weight DPS'ers.
You can't measure someone else's DPS with CombatAnalysis.
Sure you can, just have them link their numbers to raid chat. There's a button in the bottom center of the CA screen that says something like "Send to", you can choose whether you're sending the numbers (could be damage, taken, heals, power, buff, debuff) to raid chat, fellowship, kin, says, etc.
So yes, you cannot monitor the DPS real time anymore, you can easily see how they did at the end of the fight.
If you're in the type of kin that requires that people a) run CA and b) post their numbers either as a matter of course or upon request, I sincerely doubt that you're going to be bringing along dead-weight people in the first place. I would imagine only the most elite of raiding kins have such requirements, and maybe not even then. I know the top raiding kins on my server certainly don't do this and it would be beyond outlandish to expect it in a more casual group, let alone a Foundry PUG or something.
Just chiming in: I will never retire my champ. He was the first class I made, and I have since created one of every class. In every other class, I miss my AoE champ skills. Yeah, AoE isn't always needed in the new content, but when it is, nothing works like a champ!
I was just making the point that you can monitor DPS output of other players via Combat Analysis, even if it is in a roundabout way such as having them post their numbers. Yes, they have to be running CA as well and actually post their numbers, but the point remains that it can be done. The conversation was about low-DPS hiding behind good ones in a raid without a way to tell, not that it's required to raid with certain groups.
Well then, as a further rebuttal I'd say that low-DPS champs that stack morale and go on /follow or whatever they do probably don't even have CA. So there!
Well, that certainly is true, but there's no need to have CA to tell that they're the weak link the group. Sometimes you can just tell by a simple inspect. So there!
(Just in case the smiley face doesn't convey it, yes, this post is in jest)
Yes. You can count the +50 dps I do as a result of Rend.
I am making both arguments, actually. I have yet to see a champ that can hold aggro off of me, and I run with raid-geared champs and I have a -10% threat debuff, and I'm in an end-game raiding kin with champs equally well-geared to me. Now, if you want to argue that our kin must have horrible champs, that's an argument I have no way of refuting, I just hope it's not true... or if you want to argue that I'm the best burg in the game and that's why my dps is higher... well, that's probably true, I'll accept your terms.
)
Well I will agree burg stacking is more useful in the current raid format. Except for Saruman T2 where survivablity becomes a bigger issue. I find it interesting you have never found a champ that can hold aggro off of you. I have never found a burg that can hold aggro off of me. We're on the same server and things are kinda boring these day so when ever you wanna test it out send me a tell.
Well, that certainly is true, but there's no need to have CA to tell that they're the weak link the group. Sometimes you can just tell by a simple inspect. So there!
(Just in case the smiley face doesn't convey it, yes, this post is in jest)
I retired champ since they removed heavy shield use... That was just so much fun. Sure i also have a guardian, but tanking with a champ was unique and skill was needed to pull it off.
Ah, I see you don't have my super secret anonymity shredding vision, or SSASV for short. Hang out in some of the shadier areas of the Foundations of Stone and ask for a nameless by the name of...eh...guess he doesn't have a name. Just tell them Roth sent you and you'll be cool. Barring that, ya, you're SoL.
I really hate threads knocking any class saying this one is better then that. Each class is as good as the player behind it nothing more or less. It not that class that bad its the player. I have 60 plus toons over 7 servers trying to master each class. It not easy to be good.
Every single class in this game rocks to the core. So If it's not, its plain and simple your fault!!
My main in a champ. I feel its one of the best classes in the game but then I feel the same about Captains, Wardens Runekeepers Hunters Ect... all except Loremasters and Burgs, I find these classes to be the worst. But I don't blame the class I just can't get my head around these low dps classes.
I solo way to much content for those classes but I keep rolling them and trying to master them.
So what your really say when u put down a class is, I su8k!! That is the real truth. I am man enough to say as a Loremaster or a burg I su8k !! But I will keep trying to get good.
So u can't play a Champ would you like some Cheese to go with that Wine!!! U don't like the toon Delete it roll something else but what every do please don't wine about it for pete sake Phuu !!
I didn't show as much mercy, since I actually axed my Champion ... I sensed a great disparity among the classes in terms of balance, after the changes that came with RoI. I solo most of the time, and I personally don't agree with a Champion being able to both absorb high levels of punishment AND dish out high amounts of damage. Same deal with my axed Minstrel, in that he became able to heal himself very well AND nuke enemies out fairly quickly. Just personal opinion I suppose, but I highly valued the challenges that came about with each class's shortcomings.
I retired champ since they removed heavy shield use... That was just so much fun. Sure i also have a guardian, but tanking with a champ was unique and skill was needed to pull it off.
Strangewise I never found hiding behind a shield as a Champ to be unique at all. I always felt like some kind of a wannabe guardian (or guardian light) and tanking with a shield never resembled the Champ's unique playstyle. The revamped blue lines is much more of a challenge and feels more Champ-like, and it's a unique way of tanking (tanking with a guardian feels different and the same goes for a warden; they all have their unique way of tanking).
All the changes that occurred around the time of Dunland and since have made me put my champ on the shelf. He was my main, and the first class I fell in love with here, but now he's barely 75, he's quest-geared, and he hasn't been through the latest zone at all. My new main (burg) is, of course, epically geared, and my backup (capt) is at least reasonable. I've even leveled a guard from 0 to 65 since, but I can't bring myself to play the champ. I feel like the guard is going to become #3 for me, and the champ will just keep slipping down the line.
Anyone else having similar experiences?
No offence but I'm pretty sure you have not parsed against a good champ yet
Yes burgs put crazy damage but a well played and geared champ wil out dps a burglar
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Originally Posted by Reillan
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Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
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... I sensed a great disparity among the classes in terms of balance, after the changes that came with RoI. I solo most of the time, and I personally don't agree with a Champion being able to both absorb high levels of punishment AND dish out high amounts of damage. Same deal with my axed Minstrel, in that he became able to heal himself very well AND nuke enemies out fairly quickly. Just personal opinion I suppose, but I highly valued the challenges that came about with each class's shortcomings.
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