All the changes that occurred around the time of Dunland and since have made me put my champ on the shelf. He was my main, and the first class I fell in love with here, but now he's barely 75, he's quest-geared, and he hasn't been through the latest zone at all. My new main (burg) is, of course, epically geared, and my backup (capt) is at least reasonable. I've even leveled a guard from 0 to 65 since, but I can't bring myself to play the champ. I feel like the guard is going to become #3 for me, and the champ will just keep slipping down the line.
I've got to say I'm not having that problem. I also have a 75 burg and he is awesome to play now that I've started getting him geared now. But my champ is still my main and just awesome to play. I would say they are much closer to both being my main these days and I enjoy the different playstyles and just how versatile gambler is but running around pullling everything in sight with my champ just too see how much he can actually handle is just as great.
My experience: you should get back into playing your champ, but you may not enjoy it personally. You're not going to know till you give it a whirl again.
I deleted my champ after RoI. I hate the bubbles. The Bubbles are stupid. We are not playing SWTOR - we are playing LOTRO and we dont need these stupid bubbles.
I thought about not playing my champ anymore after RoI came out, but then I realized I'm not a wimpy girly man.
QFT
Seriously though, Champ remains the class I have the most fun playing. Its been my main since SoA Beta and I just don't see that changing. The RoI stat changes along with the Champ changes made it so much easier to play role specific (though it requires a lot of bag/vault space to store complete extra sets of gear) and more importantly it made Champ fun again for me. So basically to the OP I don't know what made you hang Champ up but honestly I've hung up a GRD and A HTR but I don't think I'm likely to hang up my Champ any time soon.
"We can deny our heritage and our history, but we cannot escape responsibility for the result...but we cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home. " - E R Murrow
All the changes that occurred around the time of Dunland and since have made me put my champ on the shelf. ...
Anyone else having similar experiences?
Unless you regularly played chank and loved your shield, I´d be interested what you mean by "all the changes". Personally, I think the Champ was made better in some desolate areas and benefitted much from the makeover. Now if only the devs knew what to do with Ardour...
If its the colourful and varied skills and abilities of other classes that you miss... well, the Champion didnt have more of those before RoI.
Originally Posted by xXnAAme
I deleted my champ after RoI. I hate the bubbles. The Bubbles are stupid. We are not playing SWTOR - we are playing LOTRO and we dont need these stupid bubbles.
If you want to talk about stupid things, how about the stupidity of deleting a character because of two long cooldown skills that you dont like and which you do NOT need for "normal" champ play?
Unless you regularly played chank and loved your shield, I´d be interested what you mean by "all the changes". Personally, I think the Champ was made better in some desolate areas and benefitted much from the makeover. Now if only the devs knew what to do with Ardour...
If its the colourful and varied skills and abilities of other classes that you miss... well, the Champion didnt have more of those before RoI.
Nah, I think it was the group utility. Instances no longer benefit from the champ's skills. AoE is almost always a negative rather than a positive thing, and single-target dps is higher on burgs, hunters, and RKs than it ever will be for champs. champs don't need to main tank (not that they ever did), but they don't need to off-tank either, because the few places where an off-tank is needed can utilize a captain or a burg tanking. Most importantly, they completely removed the viability of any skill rotation other than "build 4 fervour and hit remourseless strike" - it's not that powerful, but it's so much better than all other rotations as to make them irrelevant.
Burgs now have our own version of champ horn, and it stuns for 9s instead of 3s, so.. there's that, too.
and no, my burg does do more dps than a champ ever could. I think what did that is the focus on Might. Agility is twice as good as Might is for dps, for dps-based classes.
and no, my burg does do more dps than a champ ever could. I think what did that is the focus on Might. Agility is twice as good as Might is for dps, for dps-based classes.
I LOLed at this.
Last edited by Draykfyre; Jun 30 2012 at 03:59 PM.
For the longest time my Warden was my main class I played, with him at 75 first for a good 3 months before my Champ, how ever, i got the urge to play my Champ again, I got him to 75 aproximatly two weeks ago and he is far more geared that my Warden is as of right now, I like the fact that the Champ is a DPS class and a viable tank as well, I likw the way the champ tanks to, they tank like they DPS, by facerolling and I do like how they incorperated the damage bubbles, it helps the champs survivability a lot more, and for trolling purposes in the moors. Currently I am bored with the Warden class, I played it becuase it was a difficult class to master, now it's just as easy mode if not more so than the guard, so the Champ for me, is a good class to play with both with tanking and DPS
I don't get the swtor reference, absorb shields have been around in MMOs a lot longer than that.
While the above statement is true not everyone have been around to see absorbation shields being used in previous games (i.e. SWtoR might be the first, or second, MMO they play)
Originally Posted by Vandervahn
Unless you regularly played chank and loved your shield, I´d be interested what you mean by "all the changes". Personally, I think the Champ was made better in some desolate areas and benefitted much from the makeover. Now if only the devs knew what to do with Ardour...
Itemization wouldn't be too bad if it got a workover as well
Originally Posted by Reillan
Nah, I think it was the group utility. Instances no longer benefit from the champ's skills.
Champs never had a varied group utility to begin with. As for the horn, it still beats the burg stun in usefulness in most cases
Originally Posted by Reillan
but they don't need to off-tank either, because the few places where an off-tank is needed can utilize a captain or a burg tanking
Rather odd then that a champ is preferred in certain fights then. Thinking of acid t2c and shadow t2c... Could it perhaps having to do with superior challenge and higher dps?
Originally Posted by Reillan
and no, my burg does do more dps than a champ ever could. I think what did that is the focus on Might. Agility is twice as good as Might is for dps, for dps-based classes.
Just out of curiosity, what is your burglars dps? Because if you do more dmg than a champ you're doing something seriously wrong as a champ.
As for your comparison might vs agi... ummm, no? It's good for burgs and hunters. True you need some as a champ but you get enough of it withtout even working for it anyway (providing you know which pieces of gear are useful)
Originally Posted by Reillan
Most importantly, they completely removed the viability of any skill rotation other than "build 4 fervour and hit remourseless strike"
Don't know when you last played your champ... but that has been the preferred rotation for dw dps (NOT for 2h) for a VERY long time. Every class has a preferred rotation, the champ one is just rather more obvious than some other classes'. Out of curiosity, what rotation did you use BEFORE the removed the option of other rotations?
Nah, I think it was the group utility. Instances no longer benefit from the champ's skills. AoE is almost always a negative rather than a positive thing, and single-target dps is higher on burgs, hunters, and RKs than it ever will be for champs. champs don't need to main tank (not that they ever did), but they don't need to off-tank either, because the few places where an off-tank is needed can utilize a captain or a burg tanking. Most importantly, they completely removed the viability of any skill rotation other than "build 4 fervour and hit remourseless strike" - it's not that powerful, but it's so much better than all other rotations as to make them irrelevant.
Burgs now have our own version of champ horn, and it stuns for 9s instead of 3s, so.. there's that, too.
and no, my burg does do more dps than a champ ever could. I think what did that is the focus on Might. Agility is twice as good as Might is for dps, for dps-based classes.
Just out of curiosity how much do you parse on dummies with your burg without any external buffs (cappy buffs, scrolls/token, DP).
And also as far as only "viable skill rotation being "build 4 fervour and hit remourseless strike" is COMPLETELY false. The only time I hit remorsless in a skill rotation really is only when seeking blades is up, otherwise its always brutal clobber and/or ferocious clobber in some instances.
Another thing that may help sway your ideas about champion DPS is the gear you put on your own champ. I looked your champ up and you from what I can see geared him to be an off-tank which obviously isn't going to give you any high parses.
My champ isn't my main, but I do know a few champ mains who can put up some exceptional parses.
P.S, It seems we are on the same server so if you ever want to compare feel free to shoot me a tell.
Another thing that may help sway your ideas about champion DPS is the gear you put on your own champ. I looked your champ up and you from what I can see geared him to be an off-tank which obviously isn't going to give you any high parses.
That's it right there, I see champs with bracelet of unbent knee and earring of defiant with red traits coming to raids as dps and I die a little inside. Besides champs do A LOT more dps than a burg in raids because they benefit more from -att duration than any other class. I think someone did the math a while ago and the conclusion was -1% att duration = +1% inc to overall dps. Not to mention champs can keep hitting for days without running out of power. Burgs dont get jack from -att duration because most of their skills are immediate. Really you can sit and parse on dummies all day but in raids a good champ will be at least 200-400 dps ahead of a burg if not more. For burgs to compare dummy parses to champs try running without CD/Reveal weakness and don't start with stealth crit(you cant use this in raids so it produces misleading numbers) and see how you do because those thing won't be available to a champ while parsing but will be in raids.
When it comes to champs I have a similar opinion as I have about wardens, if you don't know him don't take him(to t2 raids at least).
And also as far as only "viable skill rotation being "build 4 fervour and hit remourseless strike" is COMPLETELY false. The only time I hit remorsless in a skill rotation really is only when seeking blades is up, otherwise its always brutal clobber and/or ferocious clobber in some instances.
Nope, it's not even close to being COMPLETELY false - it just depends on your playstyle/setup. If you run a 2H setup going Brutal+Clobber (using Remorseless only if Seeking Blades is up) is THE way to go. If you run DW on the other hand, a Remorseless Spam rotation will serve you better than Brutal+Clobber.
I especially don't understand what has changed for a DPS champ that suddenly makes the OP retire his main toon? If you asked me, we are in the best place we've ever been in ... no 30% inc. heal penalty in fervour, perma-flurry, Seeking Blades, Battle Acuity etc. - what exactly does the OP feel has changed for the worse?
And the glory makeover was the best thing that could ever happen to the blue line - tanking is actually fun now and you don't have to feel like a wanna-be-guard.
I really dont think burgs dps is higher then champs even including that dev suit. I know on a dummy my average parses are around 1600to 1700 with just my normal brutal/remoreless rotation. In raids however on boss fights i can parse anywhere from 2k to 3ks dps depending on a whole lotta factors. WE did a 4 burg strat on fire and frost t2 the other day i parsed 3100dps tanking the first giant very fun to break to 3ks dps as I dont get the opportunity often.
I have to agree to the changes made to blue line. Tanking in a tank build is alot more fun now and a much better option then it used to be.
have you never seen a burg with 5 unseen pvp gear??? 30% devastate ftw
That's pretty much what's keeping burg ST dps in the t1 slot, if champs ever got a &&&&&&&& set bonus like that your jaws will drop by a significant amount. Even half of that +15% dev on a 2h is auto 3k unbuffed dps for a champ. But items making classes viable is a whole different discussion that I don't want to get into atm.
have you never seen a burg with 5 unseen pvp gear??? 30% devastate ftw
First, it's an exceptionally broken gear, not intrinsic Burglar DPS; and second, they still won't out-DPS me. The highest Burglar DPS I've seen with Unseen set posted is about 2400. I regularly parse at 2k and have topped out at a bit over 2200--meaning with CBR 2500-plus is doable.
And there must be a Champion out there with better unbuffed stats than me since I don't have Rohan pre-ordered (and hence no extra legacy slot to dump stats) and no Saruman cloak (yes, it's a minor increase but an increase is an increase).
Actually, this is a pet peeve of mine: A lot of folks who do not understand Champion single-target DPS claim that Champion single-target DPS is vastly inferior to that of Hunter or even Burglar or RK (I even had someone tell me he rolled RK, because he can't single-target DPS on Champion!). But this is absolutely not true. With the correct set-up and CBR, a Champion will out-single-target DPS any class.
I am strapped for time so I can't write a dissertation on this but a post is coming--some day
Originally Posted by Wilantuk
I really dont think burgs dps is higher then champs even including that dev suit. I know on a dummy my average parses are around 1600to 1700 with just my normal brutal/remoreless rotation. In raids however on boss fights i can parse anywhere from 2k to 3ks dps depending on a whole lotta factors. WE did a 4 burg strat on fire and frost t2 the other day i parsed 3100dps tanking the first giant very fun to break to 3ks dps as I dont get the opportunity often.
Well, yeah: In raids, it's not close, because we get the benefit of Burglar de-buffs as well.
Last edited by Miretocot; Jul 02 2012 at 10:26 AM.
Just out of curiosity how much do you parse on dummies with your burg without any external buffs (cappy buffs, scrolls/token, DP).
I'm over 2k. I've done the parse too many times now to provide more specific, as it goes up and down with crits, hah.
And also as far as only "viable skill rotation being "build 4 fervour and hit remourseless strike" is COMPLETELY false. The only time I hit remorsless in a skill rotation really is only when seeking blades is up, otherwise its always brutal clobber and/or ferocious clobber in some instances.
Ah... I just don't want to have to put brutal & relentless on my weapon, I guess.
Another thing that may help sway your ideas about champion DPS is the gear you put on your own champ. I looked your champ up and you from what I can see geared him to be an off-tank which obviously isn't going to give you any high parses.
My champ is geared for random stuff I found you might look at him again, as I played him yesterday and put a bit better gear on him, but really I'm not bothering with it for the most part.
I really dont think burgs dps is higher then champs even including that dev suit. I know on a dummy my average parses are around 1600to 1700 with just my normal brutal/remoreless rotation. In raids however on boss fights i can parse anywhere from 2k to 3ks dps depending on a whole lotta factors. WE did a 4 burg strat on fire and frost t2 the other day i parsed 3100dps tanking the first giant very fun to break to 3ks dps as I dont get the opportunity often.
I have to agree to the changes made to blue line. Tanking in a tank build is alot more fun now and a much better option then it used to be.
This is exactly why Burg is better for dps.
First, I can parse 2k with only my own buffs, no one else's, on a dummy.
Second, if you and I both go into a raid, and you're doing 1700 before you benefit from my stuff, you're probably doing 2000 after getting the benefits of Reveal Weakness and Counter Defense. So your DPS goes up by 300. *but I'm the one responsible for it*. That 300 extra DPS you're doing should, in terms of overall dps comparison, count for the burg.
This is why groups that try to kill T2C acid before the acid rises stack burgs - because 4 burgs can do 2700 dps each (with reveal weaknesses & counter defenses), whereas 4 champs can do 1700 dps each. Other classes can also increase dps (which is how you can break 3k in a raid), but only burgs stack - which means that a single captain & a two minnies help dps, but the rest can all be burgs.
The only reason champs are desirable for T2C acid is when you're doing a run that requires killing the mobs... in which case, you absolutely want to bring them together in one spot and blender them down. However, with burg stacking, you don't need to worry about those other mobs at all.
Same as OP. Champ main for the last 5 years, semi-shelved in favor of my Burg. I just don't like the (lack of) flow in Champ combat now. The button-mashing and rotational nature of the skill sets are really boring. I'm sure the numbers are solid, but I've never played to maximize floating numbers. It's all about finesse to me, and Champion doesn't have much of that anymore.
Elendilmir: Arda Shrugged - Crickhollow: The Colonists
First, I can parse 2k with only my own buffs, no one else's, on a dummy.
Second, if you and I both go into a raid, and you're doing 1700 before you benefit from my stuff, you're probably doing 2000 after getting the benefits of Reveal Weakness and Counter Defense. So your DPS goes up by 300. *but I'm the one responsible for it*. That 300 extra DPS you're doing should, in terms of overall dps comparison, count for the burg.
This is why groups that try to kill T2C acid before the acid rises stack burgs - because 4 burgs can do 2700 dps each (with reveal weaknesses & counter defenses), whereas 4 champs can do 1700 dps each. Other classes can also increase dps (which is how you can break 3k in a raid), but only burgs stack - which means that a single captain & a two minnies help dps, but the rest can all be burgs.
Plenty of Champions do 2k on Galtrev dummy. How convenient you picked a low end number--someone doing 1700. And in a stationary fight CBR comes into play--which means we are out-DPS-ing you even without your buffs.
Last edited by Miretocot; Jul 02 2012 at 03:58 PM.
Aside from not even considering shelving my Champion ( I don't mind being too awesome), I can't imagine going from a Champion *main* to a Burglar. I play a Burglar, but it's definitely not anything like the playstyle I wanted when I chose a Champion. Real Champion mains don't roll a Champ to be single-target DPS--they do it to be a giant awesome fireball storm of death, destruction, and piles and piles and piles of bodies.
Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
Burg dps is exceptional, but any decent champ can meet or exceed it. Not only that, a champ has much higher power endurance which means more dps reguardless. If you're not running out of power on a burg, you're either not dpsing full bore or you're geared for better icpr and not at full dps, either way, a orthanc geared champ should have you beat.
First, I can parse 2k with only my own buffs, no one else's, on a dummy.
Second, if you and I both go into a raid, and you're doing 1700 before you benefit from my stuff, you're probably doing 2000 after getting the benefits of Reveal Weakness and Counter Defense. So your DPS goes up by 300. *but I'm the one responsible for it*. That 300 extra DPS you're doing should, in terms of overall dps comparison, count for the burg.
This is why groups that try to kill T2C acid before the acid rises stack burgs - because 4 burgs can do 2700 dps each (with reveal weaknesses & counter defenses), whereas 4 champs can do 1700 dps each. Other classes can also increase dps (which is how you can break 3k in a raid), but only burgs stack - which means that a single captain & a two minnies help dps, but the rest can all be burgs.
The only reason champs are desirable for T2C acid is when you're doing a run that requires killing the mobs... in which case, you absolutely want to bring them together in one spot and blender them down. However, with burg stacking, you don't need to worry about those other mobs at all.
Once again it's not the burglar class that's out-dpsing the champion class it's burg stacking, completely different thing. Frankly burg stacking has gone out of hand and hopefully it will be fixed in RoR if they care about raids at all.
Besides champ's built for burst (1 min fight on + cbr + hotswap moors set for CBR bonus= +57% dmg, throw in true heroics in there and some fervour potions) can do 2.7k easily with 1 or 2 burgs. Most people just take champs as AoE dps ONLY for granted and don't even bother looking at the ST dps.
Even though I read through the thread, I'm still not entirely sure why you ditched your Champ, Reillan.
Perhaps overlooked in a few of the posts have been some good points, the chief among which (in my opinion) is that Champ ST DPS is still at the top of the charts simply due to the fact that -attack duration gives us more of an advantage than any other class - which is just another reason to favor Champs as Blade-brother recipients.
Sure, we don't have a DN-style raid that favors our AoE blender skills, but we're still in a really good spot - I'd say the best spot we've ever been in, actually. Fervour incoming healing nerf is gone, CBR is viable in the hardest content, increased survivability, and an interesting tanking style that's actually kind of fun (despite my sadness at losing the heavy shield, which rendered one of my racial traits useless).
If you're really missing a DN/HoC-type instance, do some skirmish raids. Choose any skirmish that has counter attacks, and be sure to grab all the mobs in the next zone while you're dealing with the counter attacks. At the very least, it makes your tanks and healers pay attention and work harder.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
First, I can parse 2k with only my own buffs, no one else's, on a dummy.
Great, so can a lot of raid-geared champs...next
Second, if you and I both go into a raid, and you're doing 1700 before you benefit from my stuff, you're probably doing 2000 after getting the benefits of Reveal Weakness and Counter Defense. So your DPS goes up by 300. *but I'm the one responsible for it*. That 300 extra DPS you're doing should, in terms of overall dps comparison, count for the burg.
And the extra DPS you do when I hit Rend? Do I get to count that? Does the Cappy get to count 10% of everyone's DPS as their own? Do Mini's get to count 10% as well? Do cappies count 35% of all DPS when they hit Oathies? How about LMs? You are talking about two totally different things here, DPS contirubtion versus raid utility, but I'll get to that after the next bit:
This is why groups that try to kill T2C acid before the acid rises stack burgs - because 4 burgs can do 2700 dps each (with reveal weaknesses & counter defenses), whereas 4 champs can do 1700 dps each. Other classes can also increase dps (which is how you can break 3k in a raid), but only burgs stack - which means that a single captain & a two minnies help dps, but the rest can all be burgs.
You are talking about class balance issues NOT, (emphasis NOT) relative DSP contributions. Mostly I say this because a CBR Champ in those situations is going to break 3k easily...because everyone benefits from debufs. Again there is a difference between which class contributes the most to DPS and which class balance allows for the highest group DPS. In a single boss speed fight like Acid T2 (and to a lesser extent Lightning and F/F) somebody is gonna be on top of the DPS heap and its probably gonna be the Champion but a raid leader has to plan for total group DPS which means figuring out debuffs versus threat management versus CC versus DPS, etc. Its why Raid Leaders don't grow on trees, finding a balance that allows people to get through challenging fights requires ignoring the smaller issue we are talking about which is: who has greater DPS. Now if you want to talk about who has greater raid UTILITY then sure Burgs have greater UTILITY but they don't out DPS champs if both are geared and played well.
The only reason champs are desirable for T2C acid is when you're doing a run that requires killing the mobs... in which case, you absolutely want to bring them together in one spot and blender them down. However, with burg stacking, you don't need to worry about those other mobs at all.
...or you could have one or two CBR Champs that get blade-brothered by the cappies and set loose for ridiculous damage numbers AND killing any strays that wander in to the area while the Burgs debuff and DPS. Anyway the issue is you are again talking about RAID UTILITY which is not the same thing as DPS. I've highlighted those terms because your core argument centers on an inability to see the difference between the two. If you want to argue the Champs get out DPS'd then you are dead wrong, if you want to argue that Burgs are more welcome in raids then you've got a more complex argument that can be debated some.
"We can deny our heritage and our history, but we cannot escape responsibility for the result...but we cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home. " - E R Murrow
Yes. You can count the +50 dps I do as a result of Rend.
If you want to argue the Champs get out DPS'd then you are dead wrong, if you want to argue that Burgs are more welcome in raids then you've got a more complex argument that can be debated some.
I am making both arguments, actually. I have yet to see a champ that can hold aggro off of me, and I run with raid-geared champs and I have a -10% threat debuff, and I'm in an end-game raiding kin with champs equally well-geared to me. Now, if you want to argue that our kin must have horrible champs, that's an argument I have no way of refuting, I just hope it's not true... or if you want to argue that I'm the best burg in the game and that's why my dps is higher... well, that's probably true, I'll accept your terms.
But I do find that in the old days my champ was simply useful more often. Firstly because it was clear we did great DPS; secondly, because we didn't really need to have burgs or LMs in the group to lock stuff down - the champ could handle it all. So, for instance, in SG we used to take 4 champs, a guard, and a minstrel. The 4 champs would blender everything down, and I, as the champ in charge of locking stuff down, would save my frenzy & horn for the moment when the summoners would start summoning. The champ interrupt was the best interrupt at one point in time (instead of having interrupts on just about every class), instead of being merely a dps-increasing utility, and there were times when it was actually good to trait yellow line (instead of having the highest dps being red-line-all-the-time...)
I am making both arguments, actually. I have yet to see a champ that can hold aggro off of me, and I run with raid-geared champs and I have a -10% threat debuff, and I'm in an end-game raiding kin with champs equally well-geared to me. Now, if you want to argue that our kin must have horrible champs, that's an argument I have no way of refuting, I just hope it's not true... or if you want to argue that I'm the best burg in the game and that's why my dps is higher... well, that's probably true, I'll accept your terms.
You are still not addressing many posted parses that show that Champions without even CBR can equal your 2k Galtrev dummy parse. Again, the highest posted Burglar DPS I've seen with Unseen set on Galtrev dummy is 2400; I can do that easily with CBR as well as other Champions.
And while this is a complex topic, your argument that Champions in your kin that are as well geared as you are cannot out-aggro you is a weak argument. To begin with, more frequent aggro does not mean higher DPS. More important, well-geared doesn't always mean higher DPS. The fundamental problem is that many Champions--even end-game ones--do not specifically build their Champions to do maximum single-target DPS. This is a huge difference between end-game Hunters and Champions. End-game Hunters will invariably go for the same maximum single-target DPS build--meaning high Agility and Crit, with only enough morale to barely survive (low to mid 6k un-buffed seems to be the common floor number I see). But many--perhaps most--end-game Champions do not go for this maximum single-target DPS build. On the one hand, they will dilute their single-target DPS by stacking higher morale/mitigations than Hunters; and on the other hand, they will also dilute their single-target DPS with set-ups that favor AoE DPS more (e.g. by going DW--though I suppose some will continue to claim that DW does as much DPS as 2H). So while all end-game Hunters with good gear will--barring great gap in skill--do similar DPS, this is not the case with Champions. For instance, most end-game Champions on my server have gear comparable to mine: But I've seen nobody even approaching my single-target parse (to my knowledge no one is doing 2k dummy DPS, muchless 2.2k-plus I do on the best parses), and those Champions have far lower single-target DPS stats (Might/Physical Mastery and Crit rating) than my Champion does, in spite of the fact that they all have the Delulagos set, FA weapon, and Saruman necklace, etc.
Last edited by Miretocot; Jul 03 2012 at 11:47 AM.
I am making both arguments, actually. I have yet to see a champ that can hold aggro off of me, and I run with raid-geared champs and I have a -10% threat debuff, and I'm in an end-game raiding kin with champs equally well-geared to me.
That's just a plain silly statement to make, because this just reflects your personal experience and doesn't tell anything about actual game balance. Just as you have to see a champ that can hold aggro off of you, I yet have to see a Burglar, Hunter or RK to hold aggor off of me. I'm also playing in a end-game raiding kin with equally geared Burgs. Just because you may be the strongest DPSer in your kin, this doesn't paint the whole picture. So am I the strongest DPSer in my kin and probably another endgame raising kin's strongest DPSer is a hunter. So yes, maybe you are playing with horrible Champs
Originally Posted by Reillan
But I do find that in the old days my champ was simply useful more often. Firstly because it was clear we did great DPS; secondly, because we didn't really need to have burgs or LMs in the group to lock stuff down - the champ could handle it all. So, for instance, in SG we used to take 4 champs, a guard, and a minstrel. The 4 champs would blender everything down, and I, as the champ in charge of locking stuff down, would save my frenzy & horn for the moment when the summoners would start summoning.
I still find it quite clear that we do great DPS, it's not less clear than anytime before. And as for the Burg/LM story ... I don't know which instances you are playing, but aside from Orthanc you can still handle everything with virtually any kind of setup (including 4 Champs or even 5 Champs and a minnie). Roots and Foundry can both easily be done without any kind of CC or Ranged DPS. I don't see the issue.
Originally Posted by Reillan
... and there were times when it was actually good to trait yellow line (instead of having the highest dps being red-line-all-the-time...)
What the? When was it ever good to trait yellow (aside from the usual 2, maybe 3 yellow traits on top of your red line)? And when yellow ever have higher DPS than red? I must have missed something ^^
What the? When was it ever good to trait yellow (aside from the usual 2, maybe 3 yellow traits on top of your red line)? And when yellow ever have higher DPS than red? I must have missed something ^^
Red line used to only boost your DPS with strikes skills. If you're using blade skills more often because of the instance you're in, yellow would be better (to get reduced fervour costs, to get improved aoe damage, and to get the big Great Cleave skill at the end). I loved running with great cleave and spamming aoe.
All right, so .. reading all of this, I think I'm finding that:
A: you still have to put as much effort into maxing your DPS as a champ as you always did. This means getting geared, reading the forums for skill rotations and suggestions (e.g. clobber usage in your rotation).
B: I can't focus on such effort as much since switching to my burg, which may explain why I'm not enjoying the champ.
C: I still don't like that we can only be red-line.
Champs may fully be able to dish out as much or more punishment than burgs (not my experience, but I'll accept it for the argument), I just don't care about them anymore.
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Originally Posted by Gylve
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you might look at him again, as I played him yesterday and put a bit better gear on him, but really I'm not bothering with it for the most part.
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Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...
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