Thread: Faster/less painful buffing

Jeremi, there's a difference between clearing "T2 Orthanc wings" and clearing "T2 Orthanc". You've mostly been saying that some groups have allegedly done the latter without a captain, but at least once you did say merely the former. Which one do you really mean?

Originally Posted by Jeremi

This seems like a pretty insignificant gripe to me. In fact it almost seems lazy, which I can usually relate to, though not in this case lol

I was with you before the "buff bug" was fixed and we had to over-lap our buffs with another buff we didn't want, then re-apply the buff we actually did want to extend the duration. Now that was a giant huge pain in the &&& I agree, and needed to be corrected.

But the way it is now is fine. Just target the guy you want to buff, hit the buff - the guy is buffed. I really don't see the problem here.

I agree buffing an entire raid can be annoying - but I don't feel we were meant to be raid-wide buffers, since so many of our abilities are group-only. And I would strongly be against any changes that made it easier for Raid Leaders to only use 1 Captain per raid for buffs.

It's also a bit of hypocrisy here how certain captains on this forum complain often about there not being a good reason to take multiple Captains on one raid. Yet at the same time are asking for changes that would do nothing but make this problem worse by making it easier for one captain to supply the whole raid with buffs. That doesn't make much sense to me either...

Whole heartly agree.

That's why I would like buff stick removed yes but all those improved buff and banner trait to be all moved into 4 traits set bonus instead so to make each trait-line with there own buffed banner and tactic and no cappy might have more then a single 4 traits set bonus at same time.
The other thing would be to update skill's CD to the longest duration.
so switching legacies to reduce CD would change nothing.

this way we would end over the Buff stick LI's

Cause right now I got
a buff stick with:

Tactic on guard buff
tactic relentless buff
Motivation Speech buff
Make Haste duration
To Arm duration
Kick CD redux

and a buff emblem with

tactic: focus buff
Time of Need morale cost redux
Time of need CD redux
Escape the Darkness CD redux
SotD CD redux
SoW healing buff

that's pretty much insane not to mention unfair.

Originally Posted by jeanperson

Whole heartly agree.

That's why I would like buff stick removed yes but all those improved buff and banner trait to be all moved into 4 traits set bonus instead so to make each trait-line with there own buffed banner and tactic and no cappy might have more then a single 4 traits set bonus at same time.

The only effect you'd see is the rise of 4+/X builds at the expense of the 3/2/2 build. And then you'd likely have to have a captain (or two) retrait, or buy the bard store item to do so in the raid.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

The only effect you'd see is the rise of 4+/X builds at the expense of the 3/2/2 build. And then you'd likely have to have a captain (or two) retrait, or buy the bard store item to do so in the raid.

off course cause dps buff are the most useful since 60%+ of the raid are dps while only 1 or 2 fellow per raid are tank and 1 or 2 are healer.

The first reason that Focus tactic is shun is because the ICPR isn't enough to make a difference, also most class are self sufficient in power. if classes power efficient would be down graded a little that would make power spec more needed.

same might be said to Tactic On Guard.... it should buff parry, block and evade rating specially since a cappy tank can block now in 2h.

If the value of the less wanted tactic would be boosted a little then it will make them more attractive; now ppl fail to notice how On Guard or Focus are helping in fight.

On the other hand, no matter what you said if you give all the buff maxed, available by default, then the result will always remain the same, ppl will all get into the LtC spec cause they will be able to give all buff and dops and heal as much with RC.

So RC default healing should be nerfed and buffed in the HoH trait set bonus: like reduce RC healing by 30% and each bonus trait 2, 3 and 4 increase it by 10%.

Also the buff value should be adjusted if you change trait or LI so it will become impossible to place every buff maxed just by switching LIs or getting bard store item.

So far all the suggestion you've brought yourself will not make other traits spec more interesting au contraire it will just make a single spec even more required and other trait will just be ignored.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

No, I agree that some of it (specifically the easy stuff) is possible without two (or any) captains. All of T2 ToO (and by extension HM) is most definitely not possible.

And again, the number of captains needed to clear content has zero relevance on making the out of combat buffs raid wide.

I didn't bring this whole converstion up on rather or not you can do Tier2 Orthanc with or without Captains. So I'm not the right person to aim your complaints about its relevance toward. I was simply commenting on what was aimed at me.

I know it has zero relevance to what I'm saying. But so does 90% of everything I've been cornered into talking about during this stupid argument so I'm getting used to it lol

Originally Posted by Lestache

Jeremi, there's a difference between clearing "T2 Orthanc wings" and clearing "T2 Orthanc". You've mostly been saying that some groups have allegedly done the latter without a captain, but at least once you did say merely the former. Which one do you really mean?

Lestache, I never got that detailed because as I said earlier, the conversation never got that specific. All I can say is I know of groups who have beaten Tier2 Orthanc without Captains. Now if it was just parts of T2 Orthanc, or only specific wings or all of them I can't say with exactness.

But what I DO know is groups have won in Tier2 Orthanc without Captains along for the ride. That's all I was "trying" to say - and I would categorize Tier2 Orthanc as some of the more difficult content in the game. Thus why I disagreed with the earlier poster.

Originally Posted by jeanperson

Cause right now I got
a buff stick with:

Tactic on guard buff
tactic relentless buff
Motivation Speech buff
Make Haste duration
To Arm duration
Kick CD redux

and a buff emblem with

tactic: focus buff
Time of Need morale cost redux
Time of need CD redux
Escape the Darkness CD redux
SotD CD redux
SoW healing buff

This entire argument is moot for me since I use a G13 gamepad.

I also have all of these legacies - maxed - but I don't have to manually swap them out. I simply hit my skill and the G13 swaps in the right LI for me.

And I have a single button that crit buffs the entire group for me. One click, six max buffs.

I also have access to all legacies - at max tier. So basically, you can consider my swinging LI to be a single weapon, with ALL legacies on it.

In conclusion: the more difficult it is for everyone else, the better I look. Though I still want the easier buffs. See? I'm looking out for the 99%.

Originally Posted by jeanperson

Whole heartly agree.

That's why I would like buff stick removed yes but all those improved buff and banner trait to be all moved into 4 traits set bonus instead so to make each trait-line with there own buffed banner and tactic and no cappy might have more then a single 4 traits set bonus at same time.
The other thing would be to update skill's CD to the longest duration.
so switching legacies to reduce CD would change nothing.

this way we would end over the Buff stick LI's

Cause right now I got
a buff stick with:

Tactic on guard buff
tactic relentless buff
Motivation Speech buff
Make Haste duration
To Arm duration
Kick CD redux

and a buff emblem with

tactic: focus buff
Time of Need morale cost redux
Time of need CD redux
Escape the Darkness CD redux
SotD CD redux
SoW healing buff

that's pretty much insane not to mention unfair.

Yeah I agree with what you are saying. The current mechanics for Captain does nearly force us into making two entirely new Legendary Items simply to enhance our buffs and cool-downs. It's annoying - and I've never been a big fan of gameplay that involves gear-swapping repeatidly before I use different moves. That was one of the things that turned me off in a big way from Final Fantasy 11 online.

Originally Posted by jeanperson

The first reason that Focus tactic is shun is because the ICPR isn't enough to make a difference, also most class are self sufficient in power. if classes power efficient would be down graded a little that would make power spec more needed.

I doubt other players are going to want to be nerfed so our focus buff can become better comparatively.

Originally Posted by jeanperson

same might be said to Tactic On Guard.... it should buff parry, block and evade rating specially since a cappy tank can block now in 2h.

While I wouldn't mind making it BPE, it seems pretty solid atm because it's close to 1.4k to 1.8k rating increase to parry. The tanks I've run with generally want it.

Originally Posted by jeanperson

On the other hand, no matter what you said if you give all the buff maxed, available by default, then the result will always remain the same, ppl will all get into the LtC spec cause they will be able to give all buff and dops and heal as much with RC.

Not necessarily so. It still gives choice to the matter, while putting an uber buff down a traitline forces the choice to be whatever gets relentless (since that's the most widely used buff).

Last time they tied buffing to a traitline, all of us got LoM crammed down our throats - let's learn from the past, and not repeat it.

Originally Posted by jeanperson

Also the buff value should be adjusted if you change trait or LI so it will become impossible to place every buff maxed just by switching LIs or getting bard store item.

While this would be a decent solution, you do this, and the buff sticks will just go away, and while we will use the buff legacies - we will all hate it because it will be an incombat nerf.

Originally Posted by jeanperson

So far all the suggestion you've brought yourself will not make other traits spec more interesting au contraire it will just make a single spec even more required and other trait will just be ignored.

If this is something covered in another thread, please go cover it there so we can keep this thread (relatively) on target.

Otherwise, please explain - for that was not my intent.

Originally Posted by TheStormKing

This entire argument is moot for me since I use a G13 gamepad.

I also have all of these legacies - maxed - but I don't have to manually swap them out. I simply hit my skill and the G13 swaps in the right LI for me.

And I have a single button that crit buffs the entire group for me. One click, six max buffs.

I also have access to all legacies - at max tier. So basically, you can consider my swinging LI to be a single weapon, with ALL legacies on it.

In conclusion: the more difficult it is for everyone else, the better I look. Though I still want the easier buffs. See? I'm looking out for the 99%.

This is also why we need to level the playing field and roll many of those legacies (including the buffing ones), into their base skills.

Generally speaking, the differences in captain performance should be through skill NOT hardware/software.

Originally Posted by TheStormKing

Since your admitted primary worth is buffing, and none of your incombat skill even MATTERS by comparison, then you are obviously (OBVIOUSLY) so inferior at playing the class that you should just reroll. At the least, stop posting here like you know anything.

Or, there is something fundamentally (laughably!) wrong with your assertion that making buffing easier would be bad for the class. I'm going with option B. You should take that is a compliment, that you are probably a capable captain, but it would also require you to admit you are wrong.

Stormking, this post just completely makes up things I never said.

If you want to argue with yourself, that is fine. But please don't make up an entire post claiming I said things I never did then argue with me about them as if I somehow said them ^^

And I have no problems admitting I'm wrong. But I"m not going to admit I'm wrong about something I think I'm right about. That doesn't make any sense lol

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

This is also why we need to level the playing field and roll many of those legacies (including the buffing ones), into their base skills.

The generally speaking, the differences in captain performance should be through skill NOT hardware/software.

Out of curiosity, if Turbine were able to actually crack down on those using macro programs and macro keyboards, would that be enough? Kidefence has shown that it's possible to manually swap for bloody near every single Champ skill and still be exceptionally effective - shouldn't he be rewarded for that, just as the Captains who are capable of manually swapping are rewarded as well?

Largely rhetorical questions aside, I do have one other question for the thread as a whole:

I understand the desire to have skills be more effective, but what would be the point of having legacies on our LIs if every desirable legacy were just rolled into the skills? Isn't the whole point that we're forced to choose between more legacies than we have spots for?

I ask here because I see this come up most often on the Captain forums, yet Captains are hardly the only class that faces this issue. Minstrels use swap books, LMs use swap books, some Champs swap weapons every few seconds (far more often than Captains swap Emblems in combat), RKs use swap bags, Burgs use swap tools... should we just make every skill that these classes are swapping for equal to the current skill + legacy bonus?

(FWIW, I'll gladly take a permanent +50% crit multiplier on all my attacks to save you guys the hassle of swapping an Emblem to slash your Escape From Darkness cooldown once or twice a night)

If not, why not? And if so, why bother having LIs at all?

Originally Posted by Lestache

Out of curiosity, if Turbine were able to actually crack down on those using macro programs and macro keyboards, would that be enough? Kidefence has shown that it's possible to manually swap for bloody near every single Champ skill and still be exceptionally effective - shouldn't he be rewarded for that, just as the Captains who are capable of manually swapping are rewarded as well?

Largely rhetorical questions aside, I do have one other question for the thread as a whole:

I understand the desire to have skills be more effective, but what would be the point of having legacies on our LIs if every desirable legacy were just rolled into the skills? Isn't the whole point that we're forced to choose between more legacies than we have spots for?

I ask here because I see this come up most often on the Captain forums, yet Captains are hardly the only class that faces this issue. Minstrels use swap books, LMs use swap books, some Champs swap weapons every few seconds (far more often than Captains swap Emblems in combat), RKs use swap bags, Burgs use swap tools... should we just make every skill that these classes are swapping for equal to the current skill + legacy bonus?

(FWIW, I'll gladly take a permanent +50% crit multiplier on all my attacks to save you guys the hassle of swapping an Emblem to slash your Escape From Darkness cooldown once or twice a night)

If not, why not? And if so, why bother having LIs at all?

IMHO, this highlights one of the biggest flaws in the LI system. Since LIs are this weird trait/weapon thing, they are the second biggest (if not the biggest) thing to affect a player's abilities.

Where this becomes problematic with buff LIs is that it's not practical to have an LI/Emblem pair for each captain piece of the trinity (ignoring support for the moment), so the captain ends up with 8 LIs, all tailored for something very specific - so the captain absolutely needs to buy the Store LI slots, and then cannot grind relics. I'm actually close to this point on E, I have a 2H sword, tanking halberd, tanking emblem, healing emblem, DPS emblem, buff stick, and buff emblem (with the buff LIs having the swap legacies on it so people don't bug me about it).

Compare this to a champ, they have at most 6 LIs for full coverage of each traitline, and then two slots free.

So while it is possible to axe all the swap legacies, I'd rather meet Turbine half way - roll all the legacies that have to do with buffing into the class (so that's To Arms, Strength of Will, Motivating Speech, and the Tactics), and then let people do the hot swapping stuff if they want to. This would make buff sticks go away, and still retain a lot of what makes swapping good, while netting the captain two free LI slots (since all of us have buff sticks and a few of us have buff emblems).

IMO, buffing should be a core part of the class (it's what we do really well), that is constant across all traitings, so a captain will always be known for buffing, as they always have been. This also means that LIs and traits should not affect buffing.

Edit:
To answer the question (hooray for ADD), no, the entire swapping thing needs to be looked at and addressed. Why penalize 3rd party solutions if the actual problem isn't addressed?

Originally Posted by Lestache

Out of curiosity, if Turbine were able to actually crack down on those using macro programs and macro keyboards

As if they would. There is nothing wrong with attended gameplay of any kind, they have said as much as well.

And frankly, for 60 bucks you can have the same. Considering the cost of the game, its minor. I think most don't want to bother with learning a gamepad - and thus, my advantage

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Stormking, this post just completely makes up things I never said.

It's called inference. Every post you made on the first page talks about how raid leaders only want to take one captain, and only because of the buffs. I can INFER from that, that you think (as a raid leader) that the single most important contribution to any raid by a captain are their buffs. This is.... absurd. To the extreme. The rest of my plausible argument and conclusion against your "position" follows.

It's really not that hard to follow. But I understand why you don't, because you would end up admitting you are wrong. You claim you are OK doing that.... But nobody here has ever seen it.

Originally Posted by TheStormKing

It's called inference. Every post you made on the first page talks about how raid leaders only want to take one captain, and only because of the buffs. I can INFER from that, that you think (as a raid leader) that the single most important contribution to any raid by a captain are their buffs. This is.... absurd. To the extreme. The rest of my plausible argument and conclusion against your "position" follows.

It's really not that hard to follow. But I understand why you don't, because you would end up admitting you are wrong. You claim you are OK doing that.... But nobody here has ever seen it.

No what's absurd is that you "infered" all those comments from what I said. Epsecially when I went out of my way to say that was was NOT what I was saying

So maybe instead of "infering" you should try "reading" instead

All I simply said was that is if you make more of the Captain's buffs raid-wide it will encourage more groups to make do with a single Captain - especially in situations where finding a second Captain might be a hassle or in pugs. Why? Because it makes it easier to supply the whole raid with buffs without having to go through the pain and trouble of swapping the Captain around into different groups. And if you make something easier and less of a pain to deal with, chances are people are going to do it more.

I specifically pointed out it had absolutely nothing to do with In-Combat buffs vs Out-Of-Combat buffs, good players vs bad players... or anything else like that. It was just a general and rather simplistic point.

And again... if I thought I was wrong about this I would gladly admit it. But I don't think I am, so logically I'm not going to admit I was wrong... because that would make no sense. And if you don't think I ever admit I'm wrong, you don't hang out with me very often (which of course you don't lol). So trying to make personal judgements about me when you know next to absolutely NOTHING about me is equally as absurd as all of your "inferences" ^^

The only one here having trouble admitting they were wrong is you, who instead of admitting you accused me of saying a whole laundry list of things I never did - you hide behind the excuse of having "inferred" it instead.

Maybe I should now "infer" you said pigs dance on Mars, and tell you just how wrong and absurd your opinions are. Because that is basically what you did to me.

Originally Posted by Jeremi

All I simply said was that is if you make more of the Captain's buffs raid-wide it will encourage more groups to make do with a single Captain - especially in situations where finding a second Captain might be a hassle or in pugs. Why? Because it makes it easier to supply the whole raid with buffs without having to go through the pain and trouble of swapping the Captain around into different groups. And if you make something easier and less of a pain to deal with, chances are people are going to do it more.

What you're basically saying is Incombat Stuff <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Out of Combat buffs.

What the rest of us are saying is that Incombat Stuff >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Out of Combat buffs. We're also adding on a lol@failRaidLeader.lol

So once more, why are you bringing up this red herring like it has any relevance whatsoever to the discussion?

Originally Posted by Jeremi

No what's absurd is that you "infered" all those comments from what I said. Epsecially when I went out of my way to say that was was NOT what I was saying

So maybe instead of "infering" you should try "reading" instead

All I simply said was that is if you make more of the Captain's buffs raid-wide it will encourage more groups to make do with a single Captain - especially in situations where finding a second Captain might be a hassle or in pugs. Why? Because it makes it easier to supply the whole raid with buffs without having to go through the pain and trouble of swapping the Captain around into different groups. And if you make something easier and less of a pain to deal with, chances are people are going to do it more.

I specifically pointed out it had absolutely nothing to do with In-Combat buffs vs Out-Of-Combat buffs, good players vs bad players... or anything else like that. It was just a general and rather simplistic point.

And again... if I thought I was wrong about this I would gladly admit it. But I don't think I am, so logically I'm not going to admit I was wrong... because that would make no sense. And if you don't think I ever admit I'm wrong, you don't hang out with me very often (which of course you don't lol). So trying to make personal judgements about me when you know next to absolutely NOTHING about me is equally as absurd as all of your "inferences" ^^

The only one here having trouble admitting they were wrong is you, who instead of admitting you accused me of saying a whole laundry list of things I never did - you hide behind the excuse of having "inferred" it instead.

Maybe I should now "infer" you said pigs dance on Mars, and tell you just how wrong and absurd your opinions are. Because that is basically what you did to me.

What StormKing is pointing out is spot on, man. You (at least in this thread) have this way of saying things that clearly point to a logical conclusion, then when people make that conclusion you claim that you "never said that, so why are people bringing it up?" It's not a tactic I've seen before, or at least not one that I've bothered to remember, and it's disingenuous at best.

If I said something like "only people who look like me are allowed in my house", it'd be a fairly logical conclusion that I'm racist (obligatory note: I'm not - this is just an example). If I were using your tactic, when someone called me out as a racist, I'd respond by saying, "I never said anything about race - you people are the ones bringing race into this."

Originally Posted by Lestache

What StormKing is pointing out is spot on, man. You (at least in this thread) have this way of saying things that clearly point to a logical conclusion, then when people make that conclusion you claim that you "never said that, so why are people bringing it up?" It's not a tactic I've seen before, or at least not one that I've bothered to remember, and it's disingenuous at best.

If I said something like "only people who look like me are allowed in my house", it'd be a fairly logical conclusion that I'm racist (obligatory note: I'm not - this is just an example). If I were using your tactic, when someone called me out as a racist, I'd respond by saying, "I never said anything about race - you people are the ones bringing race into this."

At least I'm not the only one noticing this as well...

It makes having an argument with someone nigh impossible because they change their position faster than Donald Trump goes through hair pieces.

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

What you're basically saying is Incombat Stuff <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Out of Combat buffs.

What the rest of us are saying is that Incombat Stuff >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Out of Combat buffs. We're also adding on a lol@failRaidLeader.lol

So once more, why are you bringing up this red herring like it has any relevance whatsoever to the discussion?

No that isn't basically what I'm saying.

And again, I didn't bring it up - he did ^^

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

At least I'm not the only one noticing this as well...

It makes having an argument with someone nigh impossible because they change their position faster than Donald Trump goes through hair pieces.

Big difference in changing your positions and then having someone trying to change your position for you.

Which is why you can't find a single comment of mine in this entire thread saying I said any of those things. Because I never did. They had to be "inferred" lol...

Originally Posted by Lestache

What StormKing is pointing out is spot on, man. You (at least in this thread) have this way of saying things that clearly point to a logical conclusion, then when people make that conclusion you claim that you "never said that, so why are people bringing it up?" It's not a tactic I've seen before, or at least not one that I've bothered to remember, and it's disingenuous at best.

."

No it isn't spot on...

He simply fabricated positions I never had and attached them to me and used the excuse that he had "inferred" them.

As I've stated gazillion times, I was never aruging the value of in-combat vs out-of-combat buffs, nor good playes vs players or a failure to appreciate the value of bringing more than one Captain. I really don't know how many times I'm going to have to repeat myself here.

My position (and my position all along) has been simply the realiziation that if you make more of our buffs raid-wide - thus making it easier for one Captain to supply an entire raid with buffs - it will encourage what is ALREADY BEING DONE to be done more often, as it will be easier and less of a pain to do. And I stand by that position, and none of you have even come close to convincing me that I am wrong about it - so why on earth would I want to admit something that's isn't the case?

It's a very simplistic common sense point I'm making here, and not nearly as complex or broad as you and others are trying desperatly to make it. My fault was with trying to enage in conversation with you (and others) along these alternate lines of discussion you brought up to try and be responsive. A mistake I am dearly paying for ^^ So I was deffinitely 'wrong' to do that, I will gladly admit lol I had no idea what I said along those lines would be twisted and "inferred" to say such ridiculous things...

I also should have never used the term "raid leader" in my intitial point. It was meant generally, but for some very strange reason people focused on it to mean all sorts of crazy things.... so I should have just used a more general word like "groups" or "raids" lol

So basically to sum it up:

If you and your like-minded want to debate about these things you are talking about... that is fine. A conversation about the worth of bringing multiple Captains to a raid is certainly a valid conversation. But please stop pointing them at me as if I was somehow arguing against bringing mutliple Captains on raid or saying out-of-combat buffs are better than in-combat buffs. And while it's obvious you and others think you have made some grand point that proves what I have said to be wrong. I'm sorry... but I just don't see it, and nothing you, Almagnus, or that other guy have said has made me doubt my position. If you had, I would gladly admit it - but you just haven't, I'm sorry lol

Originally Posted by Jeremi

Big difference in changing your positions and then having someone trying to change your position for you.

Which is why you can't find a single comment of mine in this entire thread saying I said any of those things. Because I never did. They had to be "inferred" lol...

Then stop skimming stuff (and actually read it), speak plainly and clearly - and you'll see more of us actually get what you're trying to say.

this still going?



how ironic the title has become!

Originally Posted by SapienChavez

this still going?



how ironic the title has become!

Indeed, the thread went the exact opposite of the title XD

Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Then stop skimming stuff (and actually read it), speak plainly and clearly - and you'll see more of us actually get what you're trying to say.

I did actually read it.... and PLAINLY said throughout this thread I was not saying any of that stuff you (and others) are accusing me of having said OVER AND OVER. So maybe you should take your own advice here. Because I have literally repeated myself at LEAST a dozen times in this thread.