As amused as I am by how you and Maley seem to disagree in nearly every Captain thread of import, you're really missing his point here, man.
Giving a captain the ability to buff the entire raid w/IDOME or Motivating Speech w/o having to switch groups is not going to suddenly make a 2nd Captain redundant.
Now, if he were proposing making Fellowship Brother raid-wide, allowing Rallying Cry to hit the whole raid, allowing one Captain to Blade-brother two people, doubling the duration of Oathbreakers, and doubling the duration of Shield of the Dunedain, then maybe a 2nd Captain would be pointless - but even then it wouldn't be, because you'd be missing out on two more Blade-brothers, another 20s of Oathies, FB benefits possibly stacking, and double the RC heals.
Of course, if you have raid leaders who don't understand what Captains do beyond the initial buffs (which I kind of doubt, but let's pretend), then why aren't they just having a Captain buff everybody then booting the Captain for someone else? Facetiousness aside, let's not base our concerns over what might happen to Captains on the actions of ill-informed people.
I'm not missing anything Lestache.
I was never arguing the worth of in-combat-buffs vs out-of-combat buffs. Nor was I ever aruging the actual worth of bringing a single Captain vs multiple Captains on a raid. It's actually you, "Maley", and so many others in this thread who are missing the point
My point is if you make it easier for one Captain to bring raid-wide buffs - it WILL encourage more raids just to make do with a single Captain. That will be the result. And that was the point.
It's you and others who are trying to broaden what I said to mean things I never was.
Then are you saying you want us designed around bad palyers? or keep us down so as to not encourage "bad" play... that is not even directly tied to our class, but the perception of our class?
if a good raid leader knows better, why are we pressing this issue? isnt it moot?
bad raid leaders will continue to be ignorant/willfully-uniformed and making our buffs easier might just help everyone by bringing these bad leaders to light sooner!
It's not moot to me Sapien. Now it may be to you - but I feel it's an important point.
Like I told you earlier, I won't support any changes that encourage the use of bringing only one captain along for a raid, and making more of our buffs raid-wide would do just that IMHO.
The fact there are well-informed Raid Leaders out there who appreciate Captains on a deeper level and may not be affected by this change doens't render my point "moot". And the end result would still be more raids just taking 1 Captain.
I was never arguing the worth of in-combat-buffs vs out-of-combat buffs. Nor was I ever aruging the actual worth of bringing a single Captain vs multiple Captains on a raid. It's actually you, "Maley", and so many others in this thread who are missing the point
My point is if you make it easier for one Captain to bring raid-wide buffs - it WILL encourage more raids just to make do with a single Captain. That will be the result. And that was the point.
It's you and others who are trying to broaden what I said to mean things I never was.
Okay, now we're talking past each other it seems.
I laid out why I don't think allowing raid-wide buffs would make groups consider a 2nd captain redundant, but you still seem convinced that it will.
Mind listing your reasons for thinking so, other than just stating it repeatedly as if it were an unassailable truth?
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
I laid out why I don't think allowing raid-wide buffs would make groups consider a 2nd captain redundant, but you still seem convinced that it will.
Mind listing your reasons for thinking so, other than just stating it repeatedly as if it were an unassailable truth?
I already have Lestache, in multiple posts. That's why I don't go into detail about it, cause I'm starting to feel like I'm beating my head over and over into a wall. But just for you I will again.
As a Raid Leader myself, I can attest to you that's it's not easy and there are all kinds of things you are constantly having to deal with. And adding yet another layer of annoyance (that of passing around a Captain into different groups so they can get buffs) is a headache. It's so much easier just to bring two Captains along that way they can each take care of their own groups and buff them accordingly as they need without needing to deal with this guy or that guy still needing a buff.
Thus, if you make it easier for one Captain to supply the whole raid with buffs - it will encourage more raids to just bring a single captain because they will be able to more easily supply both groups with morale/tactical buffs without the extra headache that would ususally be associated with bringing only one captain. And if you make something easier and less of a pain to do - more people are going to do it.
I already have Lestache, in multiple posts. That's why I don't go into detail about it, cause I'm starting to feel like I'm beating my head over and over into a wall. But just for you I will again.
As a Raid Leader myself, I can attest to you that's it's not easy and there are all kinds of things you are constantly having to deal with. And adding yet another layer of annoyance (that of passing around a Captain into different groups so they can get buffs) is a headache. It's so much easier just to bring two Captains along that way they can each take care of their own groups and buff them accordingly as they need without needing to deal with this guy or that guy still needing a buff.
Thus, if you make it easier for one Captain to supply the whole raid with buffs - it will encourage more raids to just bring a single captain because they will be able to more easily supply both groups with morale/tactical buffs without the extra headache that would ususally be associated with bringing only one captain. And if you make something easier and less of a pain to do - more people are going to do it.
Okay...
I say this with full understanding that you're allegedly not talking about out-of-combat vs. in-combat buffs, but your position seems to be:
Some people will choose only having one captain in a raid instead of two because the "headache" of switching that single Captain around for buffs will be removed, and that headache removal, in some indeterminate number of raid leaders' minds, will outweigh the fact that the raid as a whole will do less damage and have less healing and survivability than it would with a 2nd Captain.
Again, let's not base objections on the existence of theoretical raid leaders who, at best, lack a full understanding of what Captains bring to a group (which is the nicest way I can think of to say, "raid leaders who are idiots").
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
I say this with full understanding that you're allegedly not talking about out-of-combat vs. in-combat buffs, but your position seems to be:
Some people will choose only having one captain in a raid instead of two because the "headache" of switching that single Captain around for buffs will be removed, and that headache removal, in some indeterminate number of raid leaders' minds, will outweigh the fact that the raid as a whole will do less damage and have less healing and survivability than it would with a 2nd Captain.
Again, let's not base objections on the existence of theoretical raid leaders who, at best, lack a full understanding of what Captains bring to a group (which is the nicest way I can think of to say, "raid leaders who are idiots").
Well we are starting to make progress I guess, so that's good at least
We have established this is not about in-combat buffs vs out-combat-buffs. So that is good. Now let's try to knock off this this "Bad Raid Leader vs Good Raid Leader" context next, because it has nothing to do with either.
Even if you are a perfect Raid Leader who adores Captains and wants to make love to them - it would still be a factor.
For example:
Let's say one of your Captains didn't show up for the raid (he had a date or something). And even I, as a Raid Leader who fully appreciates the class and even plays it. If these changes were implemented, I would be tempted to just make do with one Captain in this situation rather than go through the anguish of trying to find another pug Captain who was up to par and didn't have locks.
Why? Because I knew I wouldn't have to deal with the immense annoyance of having to swap myself in and out of different groups during the entirety of the raid to toss out buffs to everyone who was wanting them. And since I could avoid having to do this irriating thing - I would probably come to the conclusion it's easier for me just to deal with being the only Captain in the raid tonight rather than going through the annoying trouble of waiting around till I find a pug Captain. Something I would otherwise probably do because buffing an entire Raid with a single Captain is intolerably annoying at the moment.
So again: this has nothign to do with Raid Leaders who don't appreciate Captains vs Raid Leaders who do appreciate Captains.
It's a simple conclusion that if you make something easier to deal with - people are going to deal with it more often.
Again, this is another post you should probably aim at your own raid leader - not me, since you are the one who tells me you are so often the only captain in your raid.
What I said was past tense, not present tense. That was a reference to the raiding kin I was in circa OD - and most definitely not a reference to the last raid leader I was with - which was Quantar of Ramble On. I have nothing but the highest respect for both Quantar as a raid lead and everyone in Ramble On.
Even one raid with only one captain is one to many - but it does prove the point that a raid can be successful without a second captain as the game is now. Lestache has explained the in-combat reasons why two captains are beneficial for the raid, so I won't repeat that.
...For example:
Let's say one of your Captains didn't show up for the raid (he had a date or something). And even I, as a Raid Leader who fully appreciates the class and even plays it. If these changes were implemented, I would be tempted to just make do with one Captain in this situation rather than go through the anguish of trying to find another pug Captain who was up to par and didn't have locks.
...
It's a simple conclusion that if you make something easier to deal with - people are going to deal with it more often...
How is said situation reliant upon if a Captain can or cannot apply two(2) buffs Raid wide? Even without the implementation of the changes illustrated by the OP you would still have the exact same situation, run with one Captain or search for another. I fail to see how the ability of a captain to apply two(2) out of combat buffs raid wide rather than singularly or fellowship wide would have an impact on your described situation or upon anyone forming a Raid for that matter.
You're pandering to both sides of the fence, on one hand you claim to fully and completely understand the vast benefits of multiple Captains in a raid yet on the other hand one Captain who can toss out two(2) out of combat buffs raid wide is suddenly "good enough." I fail to understand your argument and I also fail to understand how changing the dynamics of two(2) out of combat buffs will suddenly impact the desirability of multiple Captains in a group.
If these change were implemented Captains would find them as nothing more than a small benefit to their overall quality of life. If said changes never come to fruition then, oh well, we'll just continue to do as we usually do when we find ourselves alone, buff and rotate groups.
How is said situation reliant upon if a Captain can or cannot apply two(2) buffs Raid wide? Even without the implementation of the changes illustrated by the OP you would still have the exact same situation, run with one Captain or search for another. I fail to see how the ability of a captain to apply two(2) out of combat buffs raid wide rather than singularly or fellowship wide would have an impact on your described situation or upon anyone forming a Raid for that matter.
You're pandering to both sides of the fence, on one hand you claim to fully and completely understand the vast benefits of multiple Captains in a raid yet on the other hand one Captain who can toss out two(2) out of combat buffs raid wide is suddenly "good enough." I fail to understand your argument and I also fail to understand how changing the dynamics of two(2) out of combat buffs will suddenly impact the desirability of multiple Captains in a group.
If these change were implemented Captains would find them as nothing more than a small benefit to their overall quality of life. If said changes never come to fruition then, oh well, we'll just continue to do as we usually do when we find ourselves alone, buff and rotate groups.
I'm not pandering to anything.
I'm simply stating the truth as I see it. You can disagree with me if you like. And I'm sorry if you don't understand my argument, but I"m not repeating it any more. If you don't understand it yet, chances are you never will - so I'm just ending it here (for the sake of brevity) ^^
What I said was past tense, not present tense. That was a reference to the raiding kin I was in circa OD - and most definitely not a reference to the last raid leader I was with - which was Quantar of Ramble On. I have nothing but the highest respect for both Quantar as a raid lead and everyone in Ramble On.
Even one raid with only one captain is one to many - but it does prove the point that a raid can be successful without a second captain as the game is now. Lestache has explained the in-combat reasons why two captains are beneficial for the raid, so I won't repeat that.
I was just going by what you said to me. Rather it was "present-tense" or "past-tense"... w/e
Lke I told that other guy, I think I'm done talking about this. We have established that we disagree.
You don't think this change would make any difference on how often raids attempt to bring multiple Captains on a Raid. I do.
I'm tired of talking in circles and arguing about unrelated issues. We disagree. End of debate.
It's not moot to me Sapien. Now it may be to you - but I feel it's an important point.
Like I told you earlier, I won't support any changes that encourage the use of bringing only one captain along for a raid, and making more of our buffs raid-wide would do just that IMHO.
The fact there are well-informed Raid Leaders out there who appreciate Captains on a deeper level and may not be affected by this change doens't render my point "moot". And the end result would still be more raids just taking 1 Captain.
you are still speculating that "these raid leaders" will act a certain way. and to hold everyone else up because of this is... just ridiculous, to me.
you seem to have an interesting way of playing devil's advocate.
this has become a discussion of ignorant raid leaders vs informed raid leaders. how did we get here? and why?
you dont want changes that will encourage bad play. me neither! yet, i dont see this as one. guess ill just leave it at that. difference of opinion and after three back-and-forths, we obviously do not agree on the end result.
speaking of moot... this is all specualtion on a suggested idea. hows that for moot? hehe
"I am always serious; I am never serious." -Me
"I make the most outrageous and exaggerated statements of any man to ever live, has ever lived, or that will ever live." -Me
you are still speculating that "these raid leaders" will act a certain way. and to hold everyone else up because of this is... just ridiculous, to me.
you seem to have an interesting way of playing devil's advocate.
this has become a discussion of ignorant raid leaders vs informed raid leaders. how did we get here? and why?
you dont want changes that will encourage bad play. me neither! yet, i dont see this as one. guess ill just leave it at that. difference of opinion and after three back-and-forths, we obviously do not agree on the end result.
speaking of moot... this is all specualtion on a suggested idea. hows that for moot? hehe
Sapien, it became a discussion about good Raid Leaders (or good players) vs Bad Raid Leaders (or bad players) because you brought it up. I'm simply trying to discuss this with you on the context you delivered.
Frankly I'd rather not discuss bad players vs good players - because I don't think it has anything to do with what I was saying.
And I don't see this as encouraging "bad play". I see it as encouraging a more convienent option. That's not nessassarily "bad playing". It's just the simple realization that if you make something easier to do - more people are going to do it.
Sapien, it became a discussion about good Raid Leaders (or good players) vs Bad Raid Leaders (or bad players) because you brought it up. I'm simply trying to discuss this with you on the context you delivered.
If you want to blame someone for it, blame yourself:
Originally Posted by Jeremi
I agree buffing an entire raid can be annoying - but I don't feel we were meant to be raid-wide buffers, since so many of our abilities are group-only. And I would strongly be against any changes that made it easier for Raid Leaders to only use 1 Captain per raid for buffs.
That's post 9 of the thread, and the start of the derail.
If you want to blame someone for it, blame yourself:?
No I'm going to "blame" the people who brought it up. I wasn't the one who tried to turn this debate into a discussion about good players vs bad players... so why on earth would I blame myself for it? That makese no sense.
And just because I generally referred to a raid leader in one of my previous posts doesn't mean I was trying to skew the conversation away from my actual point - which was about how these changes would make it easier for raids to bring only a single Captain. It had absoultey NOTHING to do with rather or the not the rald leader was good, bad, ignorant, knowledable, or anything else.
Originally Posted by Almagnus1
That's post 9 of the thread, and the start of the derail.
Now, can we please get back on topic?
Almagnus... really what was the point of this post? If any post was unnessassary or "off topic" it was deffinitely this one. So you may want to take your own advice and not stray from the topic yourself.
I was just being polite and responding to a post that was directed at me and answering their questions.
I'm still confused about how in-combat buffs are irrelevant, because outside of saying "They're irrelevant", you haven't said why they're irrelevant.
Just a single reason, off the top of my head, that I can think why they're relevant...
Two captains means two enemy-defeat buffs for every enemy defeated. Which is good. Two buffs > One buff.
You say that making things more convenient will mean raids will be encouraged to take only one captain. But there's nothing convenient about having to trade a captain between parties. If anything, having the ability to press a button to buff the entire party would more likely encourage raid leaders to take two captains. Why?
...Because they both push a button, the entire raid is buffed, and they don't have to deal with that. As it currently stands, having two captains isn't that much more convenient than having one captain, for the out of combat buffs. You buff twice as quickly, but twice as quickly as molasses is still barely faster than molasses.
On the other hand, twice as fast as Sonic the Hedgehog is much faster than Sonic the Hedgehog.
Beauty is not a feminine trait. Strength is not a masculine trait.
I'm still confused about how in-combat buffs are irrelevant, because outside of saying "They're irrelevant", you haven't said why they're irrelevant.
Just a single reason, off the top of my head, that I can think why they're relevant...
Two captains means two enemy-defeat buffs for every enemy defeated. Which is good. Two buffs > One buff.
You say that making things more convenient will mean raids will be encouraged to take only one captain. But there's nothing convenient about having to trade a captain between parties. If anything, having the ability to press a button to buff the entire party would more likely encourage raid leaders to take two captains. Why?
...Because they both push a button, the entire raid is buffed, and they don't have to deal with that. As it currently stands, having two captains isn't that much more convenient than having one captain, for the out of combat buffs. You buff twice as quickly, but twice as quickly as molasses is still barely faster than molasses.
On the other hand, twice as fast as Sonic the Hedgehog is much faster than Sonic the Hedgehog.
Currently, it is possible for one captain to motivate and apply the tactic buff to everyone in any size raid. So a change to the out of combat buffs to be raid wide isn't going to change anything that isn't already being observed in the game, just speed it up.
The confidence to say this comes from the suggestion not affecting any of our AE heals (which will remain fellow wide), nor is it affecting how Fellowship Brother (which is most of the incombat buffs, and those remain fellow wide). The other fellow wide group skills not affected by this suggestion are In Harms Way, War-Cry, Muster Courage, and the buff granted by Cry of Vengeance.
no i'm going to "blame" the people who brought it up. I wasn't the one who tried to turn this debate into a discussion about good players vs bad players...
circular logic!
"I am always serious; I am never serious." -Me
"I make the most outrageous and exaggerated statements of any man to ever live, has ever lived, or that will ever live." -Me
My argument had NOTHING to do with the value of in-combat-buffs vs out-of-combat buffs. My argument had NOTHING to do with rather or not good raid Leaders or good players would continue to take multiple captains on a raid.
My point WAS that if you make it easier for one captain to supply an entire raid with buffs - it will encourage more raids to make do with only taking one captain. Why? Because it will be be more conveinent to do so and less of a headache. That is why. And I gave you a very specefic and detailed example of this.
Currently, it is possible for one captain to motivate and apply the tactic buff to everyone in any size raid. So a change to the out of combat buffs to be raid wide isn't going to change anything that isn't already being observed in the game, just speed it up.
.
If you "speed it up" and make it easier to do - more people will do it. That is my point.
I'm still confused about how in-combat buffs are irrelevant, because outside of saying "They're irrelevant", you haven't said why they're irrelevant.
Just a single reason, off the top of my head, that I can think why they're relevant...
Two captains means two enemy-defeat buffs for every enemy defeated. Which is good. Two buffs > One buff.
You say that making things more convenient will mean raids will be encouraged to take only one captain. But there's nothing convenient about having to trade a captain between parties. If anything, having the ability to press a button to buff the entire party would more likely encourage raid leaders to take two captains. Why?
...Because they both push a button, the entire raid is buffed, and they don't have to deal with that. As it currently stands, having two captains isn't that much more convenient than having one captain, for the out of combat buffs. You buff twice as quickly, but twice as quickly as molasses is still barely faster than molasses.
On the other hand, twice as fast as Sonic the Hedgehog is much faster than Sonic the Hedgehog.
It's not an irrelevant point. It's just irrelevant to what I was saying. Maybe I should have been more clear about that.
And I know there is nothing "convienent" about swapping Captains around into different parties. That actually was part of my point. So if it's a common practice now - even with it being such a pain in the &&& to do - trust me, if they made it easier and less of a headache they would do it even more.
Why is this irrelevant to what you're saying? You keep saying it's irrelevant, but you won't tell anyone why except that it's irrelevant.
Because the in-combat buffs seem highly relevant to me.
It's a common practice now because there's barely any difference between having two captains and one captain due to the fact that, like I said, twice the speed of molasses is still barely faster than molasses. At the same time, though, the way the system is currently set up, most of the Captain's out of combat buffs don't require you to be in the fellowship you're buffing. So if anything, the current system encourages the one-captain system.
On the other hand, two captains that can buff both fellowships at the press of one button is excellent, and still much faster than having one captain buff one fellow, then get traded to the other to buff that one. The time lost by trading a captain to the other party will become much more apparent the less time that buffing takes... which will make people less inclined to take just one captain.
Beauty is not a feminine trait. Strength is not a masculine trait.
For example:
Let's say one of your Captains didn't show up for the raid (he had a date or something). And even I, as a Raid Leader who fully appreciates the class and even plays it. If these changes were implemented, I would be tempted to just make do with one Captain in this situation rather than go through the anguish of trying to find another pug Captain who was up to par and didn't have locks.
Do you really think that a raid leader whose group is working on (still not beaten) T2C content would bring only one captain because they're tired of switching one captain between two groups? It seems very much like a group that will never get anywhere. Yes, for trivial content (like raids that are on farm, skirmish raids, lower level content etc) you can take just one cappy, but who cares about whether you have one or two cappies for that?
That aside, I'd be delighted if we could apply the buffs to the whole group with one click.
If you "speed it up" and make it easier to do - more people will do it. That is my point.
youre too much, man. good luck changing the world!
"I am always serious; I am never serious." -Me
"I make the most outrageous and exaggerated statements of any man to ever live, has ever lived, or that will ever live." -Me
My point is if you make it easier for one Captain to bring raid-wide buffs - it WILL encourage more raids just to make do with a single Captain. That will be the result. And that was the point.
This is just crazy talk. Overblown, exaggerated, hyperbolic crazy talk. Have you ever heard anyone say anything of the sort in your raids? Ever? The answer is no. Just say it. It won't hurt - even though the sirens of your ego will scream at you "don't do it! we can't ever admit we are wrong!"
Just to cover all my bases: if you HAVE, wow, whoever you are raiding with wouldn't qualify as "good" near me. You may have different standards though.
I am Blackhawk, Leader of S T R A Y H O L D Forum~Roster ~ Events ~Chat!
~Member of the 2013 Player Council ~ ...We were not ready to find Aztaur the Balrog, the Frozen Death, the Ice Demon of Thangorodrim. But Find Him We Did...
One more thing: ever since minstrels can cure dread raid-wide - a single, minor skill of minstrels - I espouse a "one minstrel per raid" methodology. It only makes sense, right? Right?
Right.
I am Blackhawk, Leader of S T R A Y H O L D Forum~Roster ~ Events ~Chat!
~Member of the 2013 Player Council ~ ...We were not ready to find Aztaur the Balrog, the Frozen Death, the Ice Demon of Thangorodrim. But Find Him We Did...
Why is this irrelevant to what you're saying? You keep saying it's irrelevant, but you won't tell anyone why except that it's irrelevant.
Because the in-combat buffs seem highly relevant to me.
It's a common practice now because there's barely any difference between having two captains and one captain due to the fact that, like I said, twice the speed of molasses is still barely faster than molasses. At the same time, though, the way the system is currently set up, most of the Captain's out of combat buffs don't require you to be in the fellowship you're buffing. So if anything, the current system encourages the one-captain system.
On the other hand, two captains that can buff both fellowships at the press of one button is excellent, and still much faster than having one captain buff one fellow, then get traded to the other to buff that one. The time lost by trading a captain to the other party will become much more apparent the less time that buffing takes... which will make people less inclined to take just one captain.
Ok I guess I'll try it again
"It's a common practice now because there's barely any difference between having two captains and one captain due to the fact that, like I said, twice the speed of molasses is still barely faster than molasses"
Now this is what you said - and this doesn't make sense to me:
First, if you made our Morale/Tactical buffs raid-wide it woudn't be the speed of "molasses". It would be much faster and easier than it currently is. So I just don't agree with your comparison. Twice as fast with no need to swap someone around into different groups is a LOT faster than it is currently. Simply clicking two buffs buttons is not the "speed of molasses".
So therefore IN MY VIEW it would encourage more raids to simply bring one Captain for buffing instead of putting in the extra effort on occasion to find a second one to avoid having to deal with the annoying group swapping and repeats on buffs. Especically if finding a second Captain might be a troublesome affair.
The argument that in-combat-buffs are more important than out-of-combat buffs therefore bringing two Captains along for a raid is still of value is a fine point (and one I agree with). But it's a seperate debate and not one that directly relates with what I'm saying.
I hope this clears it up - though I'm sure it won't lol
This is just crazy talk. Overblown, exaggerated, hyperbolic crazy talk. Have you ever heard anyone say anything of the sort in your raids? Ever? The answer is no. Just say it. It won't hurt - even though the sirens of your ego will scream at you "don't do it! we can't ever admit we are wrong!"
Just to cover all my bases: if you HAVE, wow, whoever you are raiding with wouldn't qualify as "good" near me. You may have different standards though.
Stormking, if someone making the point that if you make it easier to for one Captain to buff entire raids by themselves would encourage more raids to bring just one Captain sounds like "overblown, exaggerated, hyperbolic crazy talk" to you... then all I can say is you must never step outside your hourse or turn on the tv lol
youre too much, man. good luck changing the world!
Sapien, ty for the good luck... but I'm not trying to change the world. Simply make a simple common sense point that if you make it easier for one captain to bring raid-wide buffs it will encourage more raids to just make do with bringing one Captain - especially in circumstances where finding a second Captain might be a hassle.
That's a far cry from changing the world... and seeing as I can't even accomplish that simple goal - I think i would need a lot more than your "good luck" to do something as lofty as "change the world"
Do you really think that a raid leader whose group is working on (still not beaten) T2C content would bring only one captain because they're tired of switching one captain between two groups? It seems very much like a group that will never get anywhere. Yes, for trivial content (like raids that are on farm, skirmish raids, lower level content etc) you can take just one cappy, but who cares about whether you have one or two cappies for that?
That aside, I'd be delighted if we could apply the buffs to the whole group with one click.
Form, that's not true. It's possible do even the most difficult content in the game without bringing any Captains along at all. I love this class and we are deffinitely useful - but I know of raid groups who have cleared T2 Orthanc content with single Captains or no Captains at all.
And yes, It would be nice to be able to apply raid-wide buffs to the whole raid with one click. It would make things so much easier and less annoying for those times you find yourself the only Captain in a raid. And that was kind of my whole point ^^
Form, that's not true. It's possible do even the most difficult content in the game without bringing any Captains along at all. I love this class and we are deffinitely useful - but I know of raid groups who have cleared T2 Orthanc content with single Captains or no Captains at all.
And yes, It would be nice to be able to apply raid-wide buffs to the whole raid with one click. It would make things so much easier and less annoying for those times you find yourself the only Captain in a raid. And that was kind of my whole point ^^
I call shenanigans.
Perhaps a group has beaten Lightning T2C w/o a Captain, but that's not "the most difficult content in the game".
Show me a group that has beaten F&F Challenge or Saruman Challenge w/o a Captain and I will spearhead a letter-writing campaign on your behalf for the cause of your choice.
I'd be hard-pressed to believe that any group has done Acid or Shadow Challenge w/o a Captain either, but they may be possible with just one Captain.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
Perhaps a group has beaten Lightning T2C w/o a Captain, but that's not "the most difficult content in the game".
Show me a group that has beaten F&F Challenge or Saruman Challenge w/o a Captain and I will spearhead a letter-writing campaign on your behalf for the cause of your choice.
I'd be hard-pressed to believe that any group has done Acid or Shadow Challenge w/o a Captain either, but they may be possible with just one Captain.
Lestache, I stand by what I actually said in my post.
I simply said I know of groups who have cleared T2 Raids in Orthanc with just a single captain or no captains at all.
YOu can call shenanigans if you want. But it's true what I said ^^
Form, that's not true. It's possible do even the most difficult content in the game without bringing any Captains along at all. I love this class and we are deffinitely useful - but I know of raid groups who have cleared T2 Orthanc content with single Captains or no Captains at all.
I doubt you would find a raid group still working on a strat that would raid without a captain. If everyone already knows what they're doing - sure, leave the cappies out.
Originally Posted by Jeremi
I simply said I know of groups who have cleared T2 Raids in Orthanc with just a single captain or no captains at all.
YOu can call shenanigans if you want. But it's true what I said ^^
See, this is where everything goes wrong. It all depends on the context, doesn't it? Because beating lightning T2C with one cappy isn't really that much of an achievement. In fact, my own raid group did exactly that less than 24 hours ago. However, it'd be madness to take only one captain to a challenging raid if your group hasn't worked a good strategy out yet, not even if the captain could buff the whole raid and spare the leader from switching them between two groups. Raid wide buffs would not change a thing there.
Last edited by Formeniel; Jul 06 2012 at 02:05 PM.
I doubt you would find a raid group still working on a strat that would raid without a captain. If everyone already knows what they're doing - sure, leave the cappies out.
Well I wasn't trying to advocate "leave the cappies out". I specifically pointed out I love the class and feel they are very useful.
See, this is where everything goes wrong. It all depends on the context, doesn't it? Because beating lightning T2C with one cappy isn't really that much of an achievement. In fact, my own raid group did exactly that less than 24 hours ago. However, it'd be madness to take only one captain to a challenging raid if your group hasn't worked a good strategy out yet, not even if the captain could buff the whole raid and spare the leader from switching them between two groups. Raid wide buffs would not change a thing there.
Form, I said Captains are great and very useful. I don't know why you are aruging with me over this. I never said Captains were not good to have along - especially if the Raid was still learning the content like you point out.
I simply said it can be done without Captains. Which is true.
And doing the challenge modes on Tier2 raiding content has even LESS to do with my original point than does this in-combat-buff vs out-of-combat buff stuff.
It would mostly be content that is being pugged where the changes being proposed in this thread would have the most dramatic effect. Most tier2 Raid content is done by set groups - and Captains already have their positions affirmed.
Form, I said Captains are great and very useful. I don't know why you are aruging with me over this. I never said Captains were not good to have along - especially if the Raid was still learning the content like you point out.
I simply said it can be done without Captains. Which is true.
And doing the challenge modes on Tier2 raiding content has even LESS to do with my original point than does this in-combat-buff vs out-of-combat buff stuff.
It would mostly be content that is being pugged where the changes being proposed in this thread would have the most dramatic effect. Most tier2 Raid content is done by set groups - and Captains already have their positions affirmed.
You said it can be done without Captains.
Someone from one of the best raiding kins (arguably the best) on E says it cannot. I think I'll go with the dude from Vanguard's opinion over yours.
Tying this back to the original point of incombat/out of combat buffs - because of how valuable captain buffs are in the current raiding endgame, most SUCCESSFUL raids will run a captain per group.
Because of the incombat stuff, it is completely irrelevant how EZ MODE the out of combat stuff becomes. For all we care, if Turbine made our AE buffs affect everyone within a specific radius whether they are in our group or not, captains will still be brought to raids because of the incombat stuff.
Taking the position you have clearly demonstrates that you have no fraking clue about that which you speak of.
Last edited by Almagnus1; Jul 06 2012 at 10:13 PM.
Someone from one of the best raiding kins (arguably the best) on E says it cannot. I think I'll go with the dude from Vanguard's opinion over yours.
Tying this back to the original point of incombat/out of combat buffs - because of how valuable captain buffs are in the current raiding endgame, most SUCCESSFUL raids will run a captain per group.
Because of the incombat stuff, it is completely irrelevant how EZ MODE the out of combat stuff becomes. For all we care, if Turbine made our AE buffs affect everyone within a specific radius whether they are in our group or not, captains will still be brought to raids because of the incombat stuff.
Taking the position you have clearly demonstrates that you have no fraking clue about that which you speak of.
Oh wow you aren't siding with me? Well I'm shocked I have to say
And I have personally talked to people who have completed tier2 Orthanc wings without Captains in their group. You can believe me if you want, I don't really care. And I'm even less interested in your opinions about that other person's kinship. Just because you are in "vanguard" or w/e doesn't mean you can say anything you want and always be right.
Also I'm pretty sure I have some clue as to what I'm talking about - and if they did make all of the Captain's out-of-combat buffs raid-wide, it would encourage more groups to just make do with a single Captain. Especially pug groups or in situations when finding a second Captain could prove a hassle. That's not a very controversial opinion to be honest.
So if anyone doesn't have a "fraking clue about which they speak" I would argue it's deffinitely you ^^
But in the end you can disagree with me if you like. That's fair and fine, as it is a hypothetical. But trying to act like it's such a clueless and absurd position is just silly.
And I have personally talked to some raid groups who have completed tier2 Orthanc wings without Captains in their group.
List the wings they're doing this on.
And honestly, it's flexibility in the group design on the earlier wings that keeps raiding fun, because they need to have the few wings that are a cakewalk to keep people interested in the raid. Having the faster/easier buffing only helps to keep things fun because it's less time spent waiting on the captain.
Also, if Turbine puts in another boss fight like OD Ivar, then having a captain in each group becomes mandatory if you want to finish the encounter.
Originally Posted by Jeremi
Also I'm pretty sure I have some clue as to what I'm talking about - and if they did make all of the Captain's out-of-combat buffs raid-wide, it would encourage more groups to just make do with a single Captain. Especially pug groups or in situations when finding a second Captain could prove a hassle. That's not a very controversial opinion to be honest.
And with those PUG groups, if they don't want to have a second captain, there's also a strong chance that they're going to fail. You're not looking at the big picture, only QQing because you've been left out of raids (most likely because of your gear).
Originally Posted by Jeremi
Just because you are in "vanguard" or w/e doesn't mean you can say anything you want and always be right.
Check the sig, I'm not in Vanguard. I know them by the reputation they have on our server, and all of them are very good - and all of them deserve far more respect than you are capable of giving them.
Would you like me to return the favor and trash the best raiding kins on Nim?
Last edited by Almagnus1; Jul 07 2012 at 12:31 PM.
And honestly, it's flexibility in the group design on the earlier wings that keeps raiding fun, because they need to have the few wings that are a cakewalk to keep people interested in the raid. Having the faster/easier buffing only helps to keep things fun because it's less time spent waiting on the captain.?
I'm not writing a list.... as the conversation was not that specific. But I'm glad to see that you now seem to be admitting it's possible to do tier2 Orthanc without Captains. Thank you, because that's all I was trying to say.
Originally Posted by Almagnus1
And with those PUG groups, if they don't want to have a second captain, there's also a strong chance that they're going to fail. You're not looking at the big picture, only QQing because you've been left out of raids (most likely because of your gear)..?
False. I join pug groups all the time with just a single Captain that do not fail. And your little "qqing cause I was left out of raids" remark was just petty. I don't get left out of raids Almangus. I'm fortunate enough to have my own Raid group and they save me a spot Plus I get invited to pugs all of the time, and none of them have any problems with my gear ^^
You always have to try and turn the conversation personal don't you.
?[/QUOTE]
Originally Posted by Almagnus1
Check the sig, I'm not in Vanguard. I know them by the reputation they have on our server, and all of them are very good - and all of them deserve far more respect than you are capable of giving them.
Would you like me to return the favor and trash the best raiding kins on Nim?
?[/QUOTE]
I never said you said you were in Vanguard. I was referring to the other guy being in "Vanguard". Not you.
And I showed no disrespect to "vanguard". I simply said just because you are in "vanguard" doesn't mean you can say anything you want and always be right. If you think that's "trashing" someone or "showing disrepsect" then I would suggest you are entirely too sensitive.
And you can trash what ever kinships on Nimrodel you want. That's your business lol
I'm not writing a list.... as the conversation was not that specific. But I'm glad to see that you now seem to be admitting it's possible to do tier2 Orthanc without Captains. Thank you, because that's all I was trying to say.
No, I agree that some of it (specifically the easy stuff) is possible without two (or any) captains. All of T2 ToO (and by extension HM) is most definitely not possible.
And again, the number of captains needed to clear content has zero relevance on making the out of combat buffs raid wide.
Last edited by Almagnus1; Jul 07 2012 at 02:44 PM.
Stormking, if someone making the point that if you make it easier to for one Captain to buff entire raids by themselves would encourage more raids to bring just one Captain sounds like "overblown, exaggerated, hyperbolic crazy talk" to you... then all I can say is you must never step outside your hourse or turn on the tv lol
Since your admitted primary worth is buffing, and none of your incombat skill even MATTERS by comparison, then you are obviously (OBVIOUSLY) so inferior at playing the class that you should just reroll. At the least, stop posting here like you know anything.
Or, there is something fundamentally (laughably!) wrong with your assertion that making buffing easier would be bad for the class. I'm going with option B. You should take that is a compliment, that you are probably a capable captain, but it would also require you to admit you are wrong.
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Originally Posted by Lestache
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hehe
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