Thread: Sorry Turbine, enough's enough with the lag...

Well done Turbine, yesterday evening (Europe) game was working perfectly. Just logged on and can't play again.
Zone crossing freezes/ bouncing back on zone crossing, everything lags, got about 5% packet loss.
Received packets drop to 0 and say on 0 for about 7-8 sec, while latency jumps up to 14K.
I don't recall changing ISP or computer over night. So, I'm back, where I was yesterday morning.
What ever got "fixed" over night causing it. :/

Being a Network admin and a gamer, I have done a ton of research to make my game experance the best as possible. Here are some things I have learned what works for me. When I am in raid I here about other people lagging out when in fact I am not. So take this anyway you like but I hope it helps.

Online gaming has long been reliant on powerful Internet connections, especially for professional gamers that cannot miss a second of the action. However, there has long been debate and controversy over which Internet connection is best for online gaming: wired or wireless.
Both have their own advantages, depending on what you are looking for, but one is the overall best and should be used if you are frequently playing online games. If you want to take your gaming to the next level and ensure you don’t have any lags or other similar issues, then read on and find out which one is best.

If you play on a laptop, or if you are on a team where there are a lot of computers being used at once, then wireless Internet is more mobile. This allows you to easily connect a lot of different computers to the Internet at once without the need of extra hardware. However, these connections will take up your bandwidth, so be careful. You may need stronger Wi-Fi to ensure there are no lags.

On the other hand, wired Internet needs hardware for many connections and it is not quite as mobile. But, since wired Internet is not as dependent on the number of connections, it tends to remain more stable. If you are using Comcast Internet for this, then a LAN is important. This is because Comcast Internet tends to work best over a LAN network, as it improves reliability and speeds.

Reliability: Both wired and wireless Internet can be reliable for online gaming. However, wired Internet is often more reliable, and for many different reasons. With wireless Internet, you have to be close to the Wi-Fi spot to ensure your connection is not dropped or that it does not lose speed. Not only that, but even then you have to worry about wireless interference from the sun, walls, climate conditions and other things that can decrease the Internet’s effectiveness.

With wired Internet, these problems rarely occur. Wireless interference does not affect wired Internet, since it does not rely on using waves to communicate Internet signals with connected computers. Also, since the Internet is directly linked into the computer, there is a much lower chance of the speed decreasing or the signal somehow dropping. While you do have to check the condition of your wires to ensure they are pristine, as broken or cracked cables can lower reliability, this should not be much of a problem.

Conclusion: While wireless Internet is newer and often touted as the best type of Internet, you have seen that in many ways wired Internet is superior for online gaming. It has better speed, reliability and somewhat better security. Wireless Internet is often better when it comes to mobility, but this mobility comes at a price. If you are serious about never lagging and getting the best performance, then it’s best to get out that Ethernet cable and connect your computer to the Internet.

Setting your MTU and what it does
What is the MTU?
The MTU is the "Maximum Transmission Unit" used by the TCP protocol. TCP stands for Transmission Control Prototcol. The MTU determines the size of packets used by TCP for each transmission of data. Too large of an MTU size may mean retransmissions if the packet encounters a router along its route that can't handle that large a packet. Too small of an MTU size means relatively more overhead and more acknowledgements that have to be sent and handled. The MTU is rated in "octets" or groups of 8 bits. The so-called "official" internet standard MTU is 576, but the standard rating for ethernet is an MTU of 1500. When trying to decide what MTU is appropriate for your line, you must consider the type of connection you are using. For the purpose of this FAQ, we are going to consider only common cable and DSL MTU settings. Most cable and some DSL ISPs allow a standard 1500 octet MTU. In general, a 1500 MTU is what you would like to have since it works harmoniously with ethernet, but not all ISPs support an MTU of 1500.

Logically, you would also like to get as much data on each transfer as they are willing to send, so you would want select an MTU of 1500 (if your ISP supports it). This would ensure the best possible transfers. If you are using router PPPoE, then your max MTU as allowed by your ISPs and the PPPoE protocol is 1492. Other versions of PPPoE have maximum MTUs of 1400-1492(1438 max for AOL Plus, but 1400 is a better setting for AOL.) You may need to check with your ISP to find out what the maximum MTU is for your network. Setting an MTU that is too small or too great can have extremely deleterious effects on your broadband preformance. Altering your MTU will not affect your latency or TTL. Adjusting the MTU to its ideal setting creates more efficient transfers and thus better overall performance. A well-tweaked system can have high speed, fewer errors and better transfer efficiency.

Here is a tool that can test what your MTU should be and set it on your NIC card if you wish. Hope this helps.

http://www.speedguide.net/downloads.php

And here is a site that will test your line speed and grade it.

http://www.pingtest.net/

James you're right - although I think wired connections are and have always been the best (AFAIK)
The problem isn't local though. The lag we are experiencing is through the server. A large portion of people went from experiencing no lag to constant and routine lag spikes that are all identical and it's been on-going for months.

I would imagine that for whatever reason they've downgraded our service and their ability to meet hosting needs. Whether this was because of a feature/change in code that's using up more bandwidth or a large influx of players that are hitting their servers harder or maybe they're using live servers and testing rohan mounted combat to see how it impacts performance. I don't really know but I feel like given the lack of information and the fact that this issue has been ongoing for months now that they're doing something intentionally to cause it. Otherwise why can't they just come out and acknowledge that the problem still exists and that they're working on a solution instead of trying to sweep it under the rug?

Originally Posted by guffyjohnson

Otherwise why can't they just come out and acknowledge that the problem still exists and that they're working on a solution instead of trying to sweep it under the rug?

That's pretty much my problem with this, Turbine seems to be of the mindset that since we're online customers, we're not really all that important I guess, just a bunch of whiny kids to be ignored. If they honestly mean to resolve this issue, they would have said *something* regarding this. Just "Hey we're listening, and we're aware there's still an issue". The fact that they don't is either indicative of inability to resolve the issue, and they hope the lag will just go away, or they are just atrocious at customer support, and don't feel that it's important to notify us that they're working on the issue.

The problem is, a lot of us are going to go away before the the lag does at this rate. I pre-ordered Rohan, and I'm kinda regretting that at this point, as I'm not sure it will even be playable when it releases.

Not to mention other games releasing soon (GW2 Aug. 28 I believe), and people that are on the fence waiting for a lag fix are going to vanish.

Originally Posted by guffyjohnson

...
Otherwise why can't they just come out and acknowledge that the problem still exists and that they're working on a solution instead of trying to sweep it under the rug?

It's all about image to them. I think they cannot fix this - and so they have decided to hide it. That's why they cannot respond and just say "We know, we are still working on it, we apologize to those affected".

Someone is carefully calculating that the best response is to say nothing - or they are having meetings trying to decide what version of a response will result in the most money still coming in. I wish they would get that honesty and openness will in fact pay off - players can be pretty forgiving. Marketing, spin and manipulation is not the only way.

Originally Posted by Jamesm429

Being a Network admin and a gamer, I have done a ton of research to make my game experance the best as possible. Here are some things I have learned what works for me. When I am in raid I here about other people lagging out when in fact I am not. So take this anyway you like but I hope it helps.

Online gaming has long been reliant on powerful Internet connections, especially for professional gamers that cannot miss a second of the action. However, there has long been debate and controversy over which Internet connection is best for online gaming: wired or wireless.
Both have their own advantages, depending on what you are looking for, but one is the overall best and should be used if you are frequently playing online games. If you want to take your gaming to the next level and ensure you don’t have any lags or other similar issues, then read on and find out which one is best.

If you play on a laptop, or if you are on a team where there are a lot of computers being used at once, then wireless Internet is more mobile. This allows you to easily connect a lot of different computers to the Internet at once without the need of extra hardware. However, these connections will take up your bandwidth, so be careful. You may need stronger Wi-Fi to ensure there are no lags.

On the other hand, wired Internet needs hardware for many connections and it is not quite as mobile. But, since wired Internet is not as dependent on the number of connections, it tends to remain more stable. If you are using Comcast Internet for this, then a LAN is important. This is because Comcast Internet tends to work best over a LAN network, as it improves reliability and speeds.

Reliability: Both wired and wireless Internet can be reliable for online gaming. However, wired Internet is often more reliable, and for many different reasons. With wireless Internet, you have to be close to the Wi-Fi spot to ensure your connection is not dropped or that it does not lose speed. Not only that, but even then you have to worry about wireless interference from the sun, walls, climate conditions and other things that can decrease the Internet’s effectiveness.

With wired Internet, these problems rarely occur. Wireless interference does not affect wired Internet, since it does not rely on using waves to communicate Internet signals with connected computers. Also, since the Internet is directly linked into the computer, there is a much lower chance of the speed decreasing or the signal somehow dropping. While you do have to check the condition of your wires to ensure they are pristine, as broken or cracked cables can lower reliability, this should not be much of a problem.

Conclusion: While wireless Internet is newer and often touted as the best type of Internet, you have seen that in many ways wired Internet is superior for online gaming. It has better speed, reliability and somewhat better security. Wireless Internet isoften better when it comes to mobility, but this mobility comes at a price. If you are serious about never lagging and getting the best performance, then it’s best to get out that Ethernet cable and connect your computer to the Internet.

Setting your MTU and what it does
What is the MTU?
The MTU is the "Maximum Transmission Unit" used by the TCP protocol. TCP stands for Transmission Control Prototcol. The MTU determines the size of packets used by TCP for each transmission of data. Too large of an MTU size may mean retransmissions if the packet encounters a router along its route that can't handle that large a packet. Too small of an MTU size means relatively more overhead and more acknowledgements that have to be sent and handled. The MTU is rated in "octets" or groups of 8 bits. The so-called "official" internet standard MTU is 576, but the standard rating for ethernet is an MTU of 1500. When trying to decide what MTU is appropriate for your line, you must consider the type of connection you are using. For the purpose of this FAQ, we are going to consider only common cable and DSL MTU settings. Most cable and some DSL ISPs allow a standard 1500 octet MTU. In general, a 1500 MTU is what you would like to have since it works harmoniously with ethernet, but not all ISPs support an MTU of 1500.

Logically, you would also like to get as much data on each transfer as they are willing to send, so you would want select an MTU of 1500 (if your ISP supports it). This would ensure the best possible transfers. If you are using router PPPoE, then your max MTU as allowed by your ISPs and the PPPoE protocol is 1492. Other versions of PPPoE have maximum MTUs of 1400-1492(1438 max for AOL Plus, but 1400 is a better setting for AOL.) You may need to check with your ISP to find out what the maximum MTU is for your network. Setting an MTU that is too small or too great can have extremely deleterious effects on your broadband preformance. Altering your MTU will not affect your latency or TTL. Adjusting the MTU to its ideal setting creates more efficient transfers and thus better overall performance. A well-tweaked system can have high speed, fewer errors and better transfer efficiency.

Here is a tool that can test what your MTU should be and set it on your NIC card if you wish. Hope this helps.

http://www.speedguide.net/downloads.php

And here is a site that will test your line speed and grade it.

http://www.pingtest.net/

Thanks for the advice. I'm already using a wired Internet connection. I will check out my MTU settings later though just in case. I'm skeptical about it being anything at my end though as every latency / bandwidth diagnostic I do seems fine, and I never had any real problems before the last few months.

Nevermind ... just saw the other lag thread.

Originally Posted by Sapience

As long as we assume "ignored it" to mean, brought it up in a major meeting today. Then yes.

Beyond that I have nothing else I can add at this moment other than we have identified a ISP issue with a number of ISPs (which you can find elsewhere on the forums) and that fact is complicating everyone. Until we can isolate what is the ISP issue and what is on our end, there's almost nothing we can do.

This is not blaming anyone for anything or shifting blame. It is a statement of blunt fact.

This was posted in another topic about the lag problem.... if you have lag problems, post there....

I haven't jumped in on a lag thread yet because I've had no issues with lag whatsoever. I don't PvMP so maybe that's why.

Anyone else not having lag? Maybe we can drill this down to a regional thing. East Coast USA here.

Just want to point out there is no evidence that this is regional. Many, many players have posted from around the world who are having this. A few minutes ago a player posted that his raid was made of people across the US and out of the country who all had the lag.

And, of course, if there are problem in the code or in something at Turbine's end - then this would not be a regional issue.

Yes lately i have been back on playin warg in the moors and have noticed bad lag inbetween the areas when you change into a different zone also have had a few cases where i havent been moving for 30+ seconds and i have had no issue with lag when playing in a glaxy far far away so its not my connection . I seem to recall this issue been around a year or 2 ago also ?

I wonder if this could be related to ISPs making changes for IPv6? Perhaps not due to IPv6 directly, but any time you play with something that's working you run the risk of taking a step backwards...

Originally Posted by Cylestra

Just most of it

And it's not soccer, it's football, and not that godawful American thing that tries to pass for football. Hint: It's called FOOTball for a reason ... but I guess American Rugby didn't have the same ring to it :P

No it is also football here, the feet are used to move the foorball forward, as are the hands to carry the football and pass the football as well as catch it. You see, we are multi-talented and coordinated football players. Unlike soccer players that only know how to kick or run into the ball in the attempt to move it towards some goal.

football

futbol

You're both wrong. Hockey is the best sport. And goalies are gods amongst men.

(Go Ducks!)

Second place? Quick quiz: What is the only professional team sport still played that does not require any protective gear?

If you answered "Rugby", give yourself two points. If you said Ryder Cup golf, your try failed.

I've essentially stopped playing LotRO because of this issue. Playing it became a frustration in delayed skill activation and delayed interface interaction. (such as opening a resource node, etc).

It's been that way since before SWtOR came out. I know because I wasn't playing LotRO when TOR came out because of the lag issue. (I have a 200 ping most days, I'm on fiber optic cable).

For some of us this is exactly what we knew would happen with F2P though. Players take up server space, they take up resources like bandwidth, etc. While a move to F2P may increase the total revenue of a game it doesn't mean they are making more money per player. Having unlocked most of the content we care to have the wife and I haven't paid to play since the very beginnings of F2P. So someone out there has to spend 45 bucks a month in sub/turbine points to make up for that.

I can gurantee you that LotRO does not have the same ratio of server/bandwidth resources per person as it did before going F2P. This is one of the downfalls of the F2P model. The user base consumes more resources than it pays for, even though more money may actually change hands in the long run.

Charging 1 person out of 10 a fee of 50 bucks for an all you can eat buffet doesn't mean you break even. You're far more likely to run out of food that way than if you only had 3 people eating at 15 bucks per person. Sure you'll bring in more money in total on the 1st scheme, but you're not covering the cost of all that food that's being eaten.

I am in Norway, so I'm quite a distance away from the servers compared to the US. (I'm an American in Norway so I played from America before 2 years ago). However I've played everything from DAoC to SWtOR to TSW beta and haven't had the consistent delay/lag problems that I'm having with LotRO. The best way to describe what I experience in LotRO is "unresponsive to input".

The lag is making my raiding groups life terrible, people might think that it might be a regional problem but we have players from all over Europe and America and we all get the lag spikes at the same time. We are even all getting the same types of lag spikes from normal horrible lag to when the skill animation goes off there is a long laggy pause then the skill animation actually goes off again.

It makes certain wings of ToO a nightmare, especially when we all lag during acid wing. This needs to get sorted out and should be the priority over the RoR expansion. I love new content but please fix the old stuff first.