You know, I don't generally play the instances, partly because I object to the rampant instancing, but also largely because of what I just experienced in the 16th Hall.
We fought through the hall to the final boss, Tramug. We attacked, and he charged up, emitting an effect that slowed us all. He then oneshotted me. There was no chance for me to heal, no chance to resist it, no chance to fight back at all.
That is NOT fun.
You HAVE to let the players fight back. You CANNOT make enemies that will oneshot people. Yes, you need them to be a challenge, but you can't make them overpowering. It amazes me that I have to say this at all, let alone so often. Ok, you need to give him half a million health, so be it. Giving him 100x the damage output of the heroes is just bad.
Let me use an analogy. Imagine you're a football player. The referee calls you over and explains that the other team will play normally, but you are not allowed to move and touching the ball is a 25 yard penalty.
Do you think it would be fun to play that game? Do you think people would want to watch it? I think not.
I think you need to go back and look at many of your "boss" villains. Many of them are doing way, way too much damage and it's making the attempt to play those scenarios futile, frustrating and decidedly NOT fun.
Mandli: Now I know how the elves feel. All the magic is leaving Middle Earth.
What level were you? What class? Are you sure his name was Tramug? Tramug is the first boss of the Sixteenth Hall. Final Boss is The Lost One.
Neither Tramug nor the Lost One should have run up to you and oneshot you if the group played properly.
The melee and tank(s) should have gotten agro first.
It's possible if you are a healer you had threat generated from some heals you had going. And the tank/melle classes were not quick on their toes. That can cause this to happen and should be avoided at the start of a boss fight if you want to avoid this thing from happening.
Sounds like the problem was some combination of your being underleveled, undergeared, or underprepared for the instance, plus maybe an unlucky critical hit...the fact that you, as a healer, got aggro that fast definitely indicates someone in your group (ie you or your tank) wasnt paying attention to good aggro management practices at all.
Bosses have special scripts that usually require more than just tank and spank tactics. If you all were just in melee range, spamming attacks and heals, then that's not going to cut it.
As a squishy healer class, you cant expect to stand toe-to-toe with instance bosses and survive for very long. Getting one-shot is fairly rare, if you're on-level and decently-geared, but if you're even taking aggro in the first place then something's already gone wrong.
To clarify, this was Skjald. He's my main character, L60 in a L60 instance. He's well equipped (though I wouldn't say he's bleeding edge or anything), and pretty tough for a Minstrel. That the boss attacked me isn't the issue (he attacked me because of Echoes of Battle, which was all I had done to him). It's that it was possible to one-shot me. He did just over 5000 damage in one hit. I have just over 3000 morale. That would have oneshotted any Runekeeper, Minstrel, or Loremaster and possibly most Captains and Champions. That is excessive. The heroes HAVE to be able to survive at least one hit so the healers have a chance to save them. As it is, I could have 100 minstrels all around me, and it would make no difference.
The foes have to be made so they cannot oneshot the weakest of foes (Runekeepers, I believe), so that the healers have a chance to heal them, and so the Tanks can actually survive holding aggro without needing continuous healing (which would reduce Minstrels to heal-bots). Thus, for example, instead of hitting for 5000 damage, this foe should max out at about 1000 (which would be about half a RK's health, and still enough to sting a Guardian).
Mandli: Now I know how the elves feel. All the magic is leaving Middle Earth.
you said it was the boss named Tramug. Tramug is first boss guy that vomits on the floor and chases after random people.
the fight can be a little hectic and if you make the mistake of standing in the vomit you are in big trouble.
it's possible for a boss to hit for that much if they roll a devastating critical. but it rarely happens so you shouldn't get worked up over it. just retreat and run back to the fight.
To clarify, this was Skjald. He's my main character, L60 in a L60 instance. He's well equipped (though I wouldn't say he's bleeding edge or anything), and pretty tough for a Minstrel. That the boss attacked me isn't the issue (he attacked me because of Echoes of Battle, which was all I had done to him). It's that it was possible to one-shot me. He did just over 5000 damage in one hit. I have just over 3000 morale. That would have oneshotted any Runekeeper, Minstrel, or Loremaster and possibly most Captains and Champions. That is excessive. The heroes HAVE to be able to survive at least one hit so the healers have a chance to save them. As it is, I could have 100 minstrels all around me, and it would make no difference.
The foes have to be made so they cannot oneshot the weakest of foes (Runekeepers, I believe), so that the healers have a chance to heal them, and so the Tanks can actually survive holding aggro without needing continuous healing (which would reduce Minstrels to heal-bots). Thus, for example, instead of hitting for 5000 damage, this foe should max out at about 1000 (which would be about half a RK's health, and still enough to sting a Guardian).
Generally, a fight should not involve a light class getting hit at all, if you pulled the boss with Echoes of Battle, your tank must not have had a chance to generate threat at all. For a lvl 60 fellowship boss to do 5k he must've devastated you, which happens from time to time. It's usually not a major problem because heavy armor classes have such higher mitigations the might take only 4k or less. It seems to me you were simply a victim of extraordinary bad luck.
Hint: the 1st time you run an instance at level, without someone who ran it before, you /will/ wipe. And possibly multiple times. Now, if you dont; we have a game design problem.
Instances ARE not deseign for you to get there on level, with no idea on what your doing and bang-bang it like that.
Originally Posted by LoyKashka
It seems to me you were simply a victim of extraordinary bad luck.
I dont think it's just bad luck to wipe the 1st time you run an instance.
1st time I ran GS, 16th hall or SG, I wiped. And thats also part of the fun. Learn, wipe and make progress.
From what I'm seeing, it was a combination of a light armor character taking aggro from the heavy armor characters who have the mitigation to take hits like that, not planning ahead for aggro management, not having a good strategy for beating the boss and some bad luck with a critical hit.
There's nothing wrong with the game being challenging and if you do end up getting stuck, there's always google to look up how other people have beaten it. Most of the bosses in the game have a certain pattern to what they do and once you determine that pattern, it can become easier to accomplish victory.
As said above, if you pulled the boss before letting the tank grab aggro on him, you totally deserve the hit.
Yes, a level 60 boss wouldn't normally hit for 5k, but it's quite possible you got 'devastated' out of bad luck. Remember that, as a light armour class, your mitigations are naturally lower; what was a 5k hit for you, could have been far less painful for a tank.
There's nothing wrong with the Moria instances; they are actually some of the best in the game. Find out what you did wrong and make a mental note to not do it again, that will sure fix the 'problem'.
Edit: also, I couldn't resist going to your character page to look at your stats. Apparently, you have 268 vitality, which is quite low for a level 60. As a comparison, my level 38 Lore Master with crafted gear has 188. Maybe you should drop the 273 might and 306 agility and invest in some more vit.
I'm not trying to be a 'snob' or put you down on your play style, but perhaps you should revise your character's flaws before complaining about flaws the instances don't have.
I realize the tank should keep the squishies from getting attacked, but that's beside the point. The guy is still hitting far too hard. He should NEVER do enough damage to one shot ANY on-level hero. Not even as a devestating critical hit. There is nothing fun about being unable to fight back or defend yourself, especially when the foe is also given numerous tools specifically designed to ensure he WILL hit you (eg. roots, slows, stuns, etc. plus immunity to all powers that might drive him off - such as roots, stuns, fear, etc.).
Challenge is fine. Making a foe that will guarantee the death of the player character no matter what happens is not making a challenge, it's making futility.
In reality, foes should really be doing damage somewhere around what players will do. That is, if the average player attack does 100 damage, the foe should do about that much too. Stronger bosses could do somewhat more, but never more than double. This is a lesson I learned playing Champions (pen & paper) way back in the day.
If you want a foe to be challenging, you make them fight smarter or you give them some gimmick that makes them hard or impossible to hurt. Think of Darth Malak from Knights of the Old Republic. He was nearly impossible to beat until you destroyed his machine, but throughout the battle, he was doing only about the same damage you were. It was an epic battle as a result. THAT is how you design a boss, not just as a huge pile of points and instant kill powers.
Mandli: Now I know how the elves feel. All the magic is leaving Middle Earth.
I realize the tank should keep the squishies from getting attacked, but that's beside the point. The guy is still hitting far too hard. He should NEVER do enough damage to one shot ANY on-level hero. Not even as a devestating critical hit. There is nothing fun about being unable to fight back or defend yourself, especially when the foe is also given numerous tools specifically designed to ensure he WILL hit you (eg. roots, slows, stuns, etc. plus immunity to all powers that might drive him off - such as roots, stuns, fear, etc.).
Challenge is fine. Making a foe that will guarantee the death of the player character no matter what happens is not making a challenge, it's making futility.
Your stats are messed up. You should most definitely not have that low vitality and morale at that level.
Low vitality = low mitigations.
Low mitigations + instance boss = Critical hit.
Critical hit + extra squishy minstrel = Devastate = Death.
Revise your character's setup. Boost your vitality, gear for the right stats, make a mental note to not pull before the tank and then try again. You will see the difference.
Edit: Forgot to say, unless you unequipped your shield before logging out -sometimes I un-equip it for cosmetic purposes- your critical hit avoidance should most definitely NOT be zero.
Especially the instances around level 60 are all about tactics.
The difficulties in these instances are not the enemies with high dps or so, it's the debuffs.
Keep your potions ready at all times, listen to the group leader if he tells you not to stand in certain positions, move away from everything that glows, bubbles, "stinks" or looks like smoke.
It's also possible that if you have a certain debuff and don't cure it, you will kill all the others which makes it even more important to keep an eye on your debuffs.
You CAN fight back, if you make sure, you are not standing in a pool of acid.
The bosses don't one-shot just for fun. If they do, someone made a bad mistake.
Well in general bosses can't really one hit anyone with just their basic damage it is usually a combination of a lot of things that create this effect of huge hits from bosses (i've heard of bosses doing almost a million in damage on a tank, but that was a combination of lots of debuffs, buffs, corruptions on both the boss and the tank).
He should NEVER do enough damage to one shot ANY on-level hero. Not even as a devestating critical hit. There is nothing fun about being unable to fight back or defend yourself, especially when the foe is also given numerous tools specifically designed to ensure he WILL hit you (eg. roots, slows, stuns, etc. plus immunity to all powers that might drive him off - such as roots, stuns, fear, etc.).
I'd actually disagree. I think they should be able to one-shot us. I don't think it should be every occurrence - which, by the way, is an important point - it would seem that you're basing this on one occasion that could be a lucky devastating hit for the boss, combined with a whole host of other considerations - and I think the ability and scripting of the potential of such events should allow for experience, skill, traits, virtues and gear, and numerous attempts, to mitigate against.
On another note, my biggest hit recieved was 92million hp. It was a fairly manic Protectors of Thangulhad 75 raid, and because Mazuakal wasn't being hit by the catapults to remove buffs, he started going nuts with the hits.
I realize the tank should keep the squishies from getting attacked, but that's beside the point. The guy is still hitting far too hard. He should NEVER do enough damage to one shot ANY on-level hero. Not even as a devestating critical hit. There is nothing fun about being unable to fight back or defend yourself, especially when the foe is also given numerous tools specifically designed to ensure he WILL hit you (eg. roots, slows, stuns, etc. plus immunity to all powers that might drive him off - such as roots, stuns, fear, etc.).
Challenge is fine. Making a foe that will guarantee the death of the player character no matter what happens is not making a challenge, it's making futility.
In reality, foes should really be doing damage somewhere around what players will do. That is, if the average player attack does 100 damage, the foe should do about that much too. Stronger bosses could do somewhat more, but never more than double. This is a lesson I learned playing Champions (pen & paper) way back in the day.
If you want a foe to be challenging, you make them fight smarter or you give them some gimmick that makes them hard or impossible to hurt. Think of Darth Malak from Knights of the Old Republic. He was nearly impossible to beat until you destroyed his machine, but throughout the battle, he was doing only about the same damage you were. It was an epic battle as a result. THAT is how you design a boss, not just as a huge pile of points and instant kill powers.
Others tried to be polite on this but the fact remains - you or your group did something wrong. Your tank didnt hold the aggro, you didnt gear yourself right for your class, the moon was blue and the river was red, etc... doesnt matter. It is not issue with the instance because many people had ran this instance over and over for 3 years and they had fun doing it.
Try to understand how the boss works, try to understand how debuffs works, ask someone for help with tactics before blaming developers.
Try to find a gear to swap some Might and Agility (even some Fate) for Vitality/moral and Will (look at your cloak, shoulders, gloves, boots, earing, etc.)
This is not single player game as you try to make point to and you are not fighting in a 6 man instance alone, so how much damage you deal and you get hit for is completely irrelevant. This is group work where everyone have to fulfill their role to achieve a victory. Tank should hold boss away from you (what hits you for 5k will hit him for 2.5-3k), DPSes should burn him down and you should keep em all alive, this is how it is supposed to be done. You death is NOT guaranteed if you do it right
Why shouldn't a lvl 60 boss do 5k damage (devastated)?
IIRC my hunter could do more damage with Heart Seeker at that lvl (when devastated).
IMHO a boss should be able to do the same kind of damage as our Hero's, it must be a challenge after all.
And as said above you shouldn't have had the aggro in the first place.
I honestly detect some hint of exaggeration with the 5k hit. Played 16th hall many times on many toons and haven't seen him hit that hard ever regardless of the class I played.
Regardless if you think that the healer getting one-shotted from a boss in an instance makes running instances not worth it, stop now. There are bosses and even adds that will one-shot the best equipped minstrels. That's why each member of the group has to play their key role. If you can simply heal yourself while the boss is whacking at you until your power runs out, why have a tank at all?
I'm inclined to agree with other posters that you might want to have a look at your build. You seem to be quite low on morale--I don't remember what my minstrel had at 60, but my level 50 LM right now has as much morale and power as you have at 60. There's a nice little tool available online that lets you compare your stats with others of your class and level. No one else sees your stats, they're just amalgamated into your class and level. You needn't take it as gospel, but it can suggest areas where you may be weak : http://ttahvo.webatu.com/index.php
More morale wouldn't protect you against a 5k hit, but more mitigations and resistances might have reduced that hit to survivable levels.
Also, why did you have Echoes of Battle on the boss before the tank had solid aggro? It may not do a lot of damage, but it was obviously enough at that stage of the fight for you to top the aggro table and become a target. If you're the healer, doing damage comes a long way down your priority list. Get some ballads and anthems up to buff your team and your healing first, then if your tank isn't taking a lot of damage, you can think about adding your bit to the overall dps.
I honestly detect some hint of exaggeration with the 5k hit. Played 16th hall many times on many toons and haven't seen him hit that hard ever regardless of the class I played.
Regardless if you think that the healer getting one-shotted from a boss in an instance makes running instances not worth it, stop now. There are bosses and even adds that will one-shot the best equipped minstrels. That's why each member of the group has to play their key role. If you can simply heal yourself while the boss is whacking at you until your power runs out, why have a tank at all?
I have ran through 16th hall, all the way to the lost one, multiple times on seven different characters, and I never saw this happen or had it happen to me. Not to say this didn't happen. But the instance is fine. In fact it's pretty much perfect. I think it's a testament to the fact these kinds of devastating Critical hits do not happen that often.
I have seen people quickly owned by Tramug though. They just stood in that pool of vomit without running.
It's hard to get out of that pool when you're stunned or rooted.
Don't go by the equipment you see on the character at this moment, I actually don't go into battle wearing a cosmetic crafting outfit.
It is possible it was a onetime event, except that it happened more than once. It was a small sample space though.
That said, I stand by my original assertion. You need to give the players - ALL players - a chance to survive long enough to fight back. Perhaps it's just my opinion, but I like to think it's based on experience and logic.
Mandli: Now I know how the elves feel. All the magic is leaving Middle Earth.
It's hard to get out of that pool when you're stunned or rooted.
Don't go by the equipment you see on the character at this moment, I actually don't go into battle wearing a cosmetic crafting outfit.
It is possible it was a onetime event, except that it happened more than once. It was a small sample space though.
That said, I stand by my original assertion. You need to give the players - ALL players - a chance to survive long enough to fight back. Perhaps it's just my opinion, but I like to think it's based on experience and logic.
Well, maybe we mistook your gear choices, but you can't blame us... people usually equip cosmetics to the proper slots, not as armour.
But regardless, as many have said above, there is nothing wrong with this instance, and it's certainly not impossible. Maybe try to see what you / your group did wrong and then try again.
And no, I don't think 'all' players should be given a chance to survive anything in game. Some instances have interesting mechanics that keep people on their toes, making it a challenge; that's the fun of it. Pay attention to what you're doing, make sure you know what you're supposed to do and you will see a difference <- there's your chance to 'fight back'.
I realize the tank should keep the squishies from getting attacked, but that's beside the point. The guy is still hitting far too hard. He should NEVER do enough damage to one shot ANY on-level hero. Not even as a devestating critical hit.
Wrong. He should not be able to one shot a tank class. Everyone else is fair game. It's why you have to learn that each class has a role and when someone messes up and interferes or takes on a role they are not meant to bad things are going to happen. If he wasn't able to do that kind of damage to a squishy then the tank and healer would never have any challenge at all. The tank would never be in danger of dying.
That said, I stand by my original assertion. You need to give the players - ALL players - a chance to survive long enough to fight back.
You are absolutely right about this. And guess what: All DO have a chance to survive.
1. know your class (defensive skille, weaknesses)
2. know your group role (don't you dare to get aggro if you are not the tank)
3. learn how to fight the enemy - first time you will fail, but you still had a chance, even if you die.
You see, you DID have a chance to fight, you just died. If you were not the tank, you were not supposed to get hit. If you just run mindless into the room without looking, it was your fault, plain and simple. You did have a chance, but "chance" means that you can also die. And that you did.
"We attacked, and he charged up, emitting an effect that slowed us all." How comes you were close enough to get hit by the effect? That means you failed in point 2 (if you knew about his AOE stun) or point 3 (if you didn't know about his AOE stun).
"It's hard to get out of that pool when you're stunned or rooted." That you were standing it into a dangerous area at all means you failed in point 3.
It's not a shame to fail, I failed often enough People die in instances if they don't know them, that's what MMOs are like. But you keep trying until you know how to.
If I die as Champion, then usually by pulling the mob of the minstrel, if the tank could not hold them all. As tank I usually don't die that quickly.
It's hard to get out of that pool when you're stunned or rooted.
Don't go by the equipment you see on the character at this moment, I actually don't go into battle wearing a cosmetic crafting outfit.
It is possible it was a onetime event, except that it happened more than once. It was a small sample space though.
That said, I stand by my original assertion. You need to give the players - ALL players - a chance to survive long enough to fight back. Perhaps it's just my opinion, but I like to think it's based on experience and logic.
It is not about players, but about classes.
With your logic the fights will have no challenge at all... there will be no point in having classes, groups and tactics.
TS you might want to consider that even death (losing all Morale) is a normal part of the game, and that's why we have classes who can Rez. Dying is meant to happen.
5k hit to a Light Armor class (30% mits) = 7143 raw damage
7k hit to a Heavy Armor class (70% mits) = 2143 net damage
And that's a worst-case scenario, of course - a devastating crit on a high-damage attack. And, of course, Heavy classes are going to have better BPE and crit avoidance than a Minstrel, so its more likely that such a blow would never land in the first place. And they're going to have way higher Morale, so they can absorb many more such hits.
If group bosses couldnt one-shot Light classes with lucky blows, if the most they could do was a 2k hit to Heavies, then heavy classes would never die. They could probably self-heal for the most part, with healers only needed when the boss strung a series of big blows together.
It is not about players, but about classes.
With your logic the fights will have no challenge at all... there will be no point in having classes, groups and tactics.
This. Its about knowing how to play your class and work with a group. The last thing we need is instances to be made so everyone can just walk through it without any effort. A lot of the game has been nerfed enough already. The instances are the best part of the game for people who enjoy working as a team with friends.
Making enemies hit hard, but not hard enough to instantly kill people wouldn't eliminate any challenge.
Imagine a group: The Tank has around 5000 health, the healer around 3000 and the DPS guy around 2000.
Now, in scenario 1, the enemy routinely hits for 3000 damage. If he hits the tank, the tank cannot survive a second hit, so the healer is relegated to doing nothing but healing. If he hits the DPS guy, the healer can do nothing because it's a oneshot kill. This basically removes the healer from doing anything but healing the tank.
In scenario 2, the enemy tends to hit for around 1000 damage. Now, the tank can actually survive a few hits, which will free the healer to do other things, like Song of Aid or attacking (GASP). If the enemy attacks the DPS guy, he will survive long enough for the healer to save him and the tank to reattain aggro. In this situation, the enemy is still a threat (the tank wouldn't survive all that long without the healer actually healing), but is not going to force one particular playstyle. Choice is always preferable.
Personally, I would much rather play scenario 2. Of course, maybe that's just me, but I'm sure there are those that would agree with me.
Mandli: Now I know how the elves feel. All the magic is leaving Middle Earth.
I think you need to go to the Class forums Tiamo. Learn what trait and skills you need to use. Also. Find HIGH level skilled (Class) that played for a few years. Have he or She Mentor you. What skills you need and such.
I think your major issue Tiamo you played solo for the frist 60 levels and you need to learn new ways to do combat in fellowships.
That's how enemies work. You were hit by lightning man. It rarely ever happens.
That's always possible. I've seen wierd damage amounts many times in the past, so it wouldn't be the first time. That said, I still think my point remains valid.
I do appreciate the considered discussion and lack of flaming. Other forums tend to devolve into namecalling by this time. Ongoing proof of the quality of our community.
Mandli: Now I know how the elves feel. All the magic is leaving Middle Earth.
To clarify, this was Skjald. He's my main character, L60 in a L60 instance. He's well equipped (though I wouldn't say he's bleeding edge or anything), and pretty tough for a Minstrel.
I snooped a bit at your profile. Level 61 minstrel with 364 Will (main stat contributed to power pool, resistance, & your outgoing damage/healing) 268 Vitality (morale pool, resistance, physical & tact mitigation) Sounds like the boss you fought made a tactical crit on you. Vitality would have helped mitigate that alot. You also don't seem to have a shield? (block rating) and no critical avoidance stat.
So yeah, it was a whammy.
There are things you can do equipment/stat wise to make you harder to one-shot, but if nasty is on the ground in the form of fire, poison or icy fog, acid, etc. Don't linger!
It is hard to do earlier on, but whatever your main stat is, (Will for you) you should attempt to get it to, Level X 10. Vitality is the magic stat for any class. ALL classes can and should stack vitality as much as one can.
All said and done... don't worry about the wipe on a first run. It is part of the learning curve.
And since this is the suggestion forum... light shields really should start to include some critical hit mitigation's, starting with Moria!
Making enemies hit hard, but not hard enough to instantly kill people wouldn't eliminate any challenge.
I know you've read this from other posters, but it is VERY important. Vitality! It increases your maximum morale. It also mitigates incoming physical & tactical damage. It sounds to me like the boss landed a tactical critical hit. Lots of vitality mitigates the incoming tactical damage from those hits, plus higher morale pool, you have a better chance to survive.
Raise your vitality, to take the edge off those hits.
Your Will (main stat for a minstrel) also needs work. Your outgoing damage and healing will increase if you up your will.
If you can find a light shield with +block rating (& crit. mit. <---good luck on that last stat at level 60) You will have improved your chances of surviving long enough to heal out of that massive damaging shot.
Lastly, your light armor was never designed to take the brunt, so always let the heavy (tank) do that... unless he is dead.
I find the more folk that don't know the instance tends to also up the total collateral damage to the group. That specific boss and his 2 adds (additional mobs) should be all that is left to fight in that particular room, (if you've cleared out the additional mobs.) A decent tank can hold the boss long enough, that the group can tear down the 2 adds, then join the tank on the boss.
Fights go horribly wrong, more times than not, because the group is approaching the fight with very poor group dynamics.
Anyway, best of luck in future battles. And up your Will & Vitality!
Making enemies hit hard, but not hard enough to instantly kill people wouldn't eliminate any challenge.
Imagine a group: The Tank has around 5000 health, the healer around 3000 and the DPS guy around 2000.
Now, in scenario 1, the enemy routinely hits for 3000 damage. If he hits the tank, the tank cannot survive a second hit, so the healer is relegated to doing nothing but healing. If he hits the DPS guy, the healer can do nothing because it's a oneshot kill. This basically removes the healer from doing anything but healing the tank.
In scenario 2, the enemy tends to hit for around 1000 damage. Now, the tank can actually survive a few hits, which will free the healer to do other things, like Song of Aid or attacking (GASP). If the enemy attacks the DPS guy, he will survive long enough for the healer to save him and the tank to reattain aggro. In this situation, the enemy is still a threat (the tank wouldn't survive all that long without the healer actually healing), but is not going to force one particular playstyle. Choice is always preferable.
Personally, I would much rather play scenario 2. Of course, maybe that's just me, but I'm sure there are those that would agree with me.
So in your opinion, the tank should be able to tank without fear of death because if he gets 1 heal every couple of minutes he will be fine, he should be able to absorb 3 or 4 devestates before he is in trouble, you want the dps guy to not have to worry about managing his agro because if he gets it no problem 1 heal and he is okie dokey until the tank regrabs agro, and the healer should never have to be in a position to have to make decisions on what skills are more important right now, they should be freed enough to do everything they want to without the chance of someone dying. I'm sorry but to me thats not a challenge thats just running through the motions. It would also cause some classes to become irrelavant. For instance, in your senario, the tank becomes pointless, because you can have a dps guy tank because a dedicated healer can keep him up, why have a tank class when you can substitute with an extra dps class, the boss will go down faster. I hate to tell you this but that is exactly what happened in MOM. Hunters were tanking because the bosses were not hitting hard enough, and their dps was insane. A lot of things have been changed to prevent this kind of thing from happening again.
Making enemies hit hard, but not hard enough to instantly kill people wouldn't eliminate any challenge.
You seem to constantly ignore that it doesn't happen just for fun.
It only happens if the group messes up.
As healer you are not supposed to get hit. It's not about the instance, the instance is not too hard, the players were too dumb.
One was standing in a pool of acid, the tank was sleeping when the boss charged. The champion did not interrupt the bosses induction, the guardian forgot to use shield wall on the healer when he saw that the boss was targeting him, the hunter forgot to take poison of you, the healer forgot to take fear effects, the lore master forgot to take wounds.
The group messed up if the healer got killed with one hit.
I personally suspect that you used a heal over time on one of your fellows before the fight started, that got you aggro and the tank did not take it off you in time.
Note: Never use a HOT before someone hit the boss.
Making enemies hit hard, but not hard enough to instantly kill people wouldn't eliminate any challenge.
Imagine a group: The Tank has around 5000 health, the healer around 3000 and the DPS guy around 2000.
...
In scenario 2, the enemy tends to hit for around 1000 damage. Now, the tank can actually survive a few hits, which will free the healer to do other things, like Song of Aid or attacking (GASP). If the enemy attacks the DPS guy, he will survive long enough for the healer to save him and the tank to reattain aggro. In this situation, the enemy is still a threat (the tank wouldn't survive all that long without the healer actually healing), but is not going to force one particular playstyle. Choice is always preferable.
Personally, I would much rather play scenario 2. Of course, maybe that's just me, but I'm sure there are those that would agree with me.
In scenario 2, the dps guy would actually have at least 4k morale (probably depending on if its a medium (hunter/burg) or heavy armor class (champ). All of which would have better mitigations than any light armor wearer. Some of the light armor classes wouldnt be dps in a group, especially on level, i.e LM, who would be debuffing the boss and supporting the rest of the fellowship. RKs could be DPS and they could also be a backup healer. That said they SHOULD have 3k morale too. Most times the mini will have the lowest morale in the party.
That said, playing in scenario 1, if you have your ballads up that increase your healing, you should be able to use chord of salvation and raise the spirit to keep the tank alive, Inspire fellows can be used to keep the rest of the fellowship topped off. And if you are in an instance without a backup healer, that is just bad planning. BTW your ballads do cause damage, so while you arent using echos of battle, at first, you are still dpsing.
Not sure if you had one or not, but any instance that is run without a backup healer is definitely tougher than with one. A cappie has a number of heals over time, so do RKs. Wouldnt necessarily stop one-shot, but with a debuffed boss, its gonna help.
I've seen wierd damage amounts many times in the past, so it wouldn't be the first time. That said, I still think my point remains valid.
I'm sorry Tiamo, but your point is invalid.
Others tried to explain over and over why this could possibly happen, what to do to prevent it, etc... but you keep arguing for the sake of arguement. Bosses in 6-man instances are not supposed to hit similar to landscape mobs you are used to. Mechanics of the boss fight, debuffs, effects, special attacks, etc... are supposed to be complex and require team work to counter. This is all about group/class ballance - if every class can survive boss devastating hit then many classes (including tanks and/or healers) can become obsolete.
The most funny part is that what you seen as one-hit is most likely combination of debuffs, pools and boss special attacks that you and your group didnt counter right. Thats all. You did it wrong, learn from your mistake and try better next time.
Don't ask for the things to be made your way while everyone else here was able to do the encounter right.
Imagine a group: The Tank has around 5000 health, the healer around 3000 and the DPS guy around 2000.
Now, in scenario 1, the enemy routinely hits for 3000 damage. If he hits the tank, the tank cannot survive a second hit, so the healer is relegated to doing nothing but healing. If he hits the DPS guy, the healer can do nothing because it's a oneshot kill. This basically removes the healer from doing anything but healing the tank.
In scenario 2, the enemy tends to hit for around 1000 damage. Now, the tank can actually survive a few hits, which will free the healer to do other things, like Song of Aid or attacking (GASP). If the enemy attacks the DPS guy, he will survive long enough for the healer to save him and the tank to reattain aggro. In this situation, the enemy is still a threat (the tank wouldn't survive all that long without the healer actually healing), but is not going to force one particular playstyle. Choice is always preferable.
You're neglecting mitigations. That same hit that one-shot you would have just been a nasty bruise for someone in heavy armor.
Scenario 1: 3k damage. Heavy (70% mit) takes 900 damage, easily absorbed by routine healing, healspam is not necessary. Medium (50%) takes 1500 damage, a nasty hit but survivable, assuming tank gets aggro back soon and healer does his job. Light (30%) takes 2100 damage, possibly a mortal blow if you're under equipped; if not, then you're liable to be two-shotted if tank doesnt snap aggro back really quick, but in neither case was it a completely unavoidable death.
Scenario 2: 1k damage. Light takes 700 damage, a nasty blow but you could take several such in a row without dying. Medium takes 500, with a healer in the group they could maintank at that level. Heavy takes 300 damage, you could stack enough ICMR to passively heal that.
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Originally Posted by Tiamo
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