Thread: Please apply the DDO raid loot policies to LOTRO

Hello,
After reading threads where players describe running a raid over and over and over again and they still get out-rolled for coveted loot (dragon scales) or that last piece of jewelry assuming it drops.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ging-is-no-fun

I think it is time to ressurect the "Use DDO's raid loot reward" suggestion I offered in the past.

I recall from several of DDO's raids such as The Titan and whatever the Stormgiant one is called that after 20 runs people received as a reward the option of going to the quest giver and choosing 1 item from a list of loot available in that specific raid that they wanted. BOA gear remained BOA and non-BOA items were naturally non-BOA. In the case of LOTRO maybe reward a barter token after the 20th run that can be exchanged at vendor for whatever loot from that raid the player wanted.

Why do this to LOTRO raids?
1. It keeps people going back into the content knowing they will get rewarded for either a roll or at some future point in time after running that content a specific number of times.
2. It prevents dissatisfaction due to frustration; by extension they keep paying to play the game as opposed to leaving for what they perceive to be greener pastures.

I agree. I suppose I'm a bit jaded after running Draigoch every week for 7 months before receiving my scales, and that's because my kin finally started awarding scales to folks that didn't have them. Particularly with high-end loot like that, it seems right to reward players that raid a lot (and help other people get loot) but might have poor loot rolls themselves.

Oh man, this reminds me of years ago before we had skirmish vendors I had to go to CD for that Helch tentacle or whatever it was called for my guard 45 class quest and hope I would win the roll after being there for an entire evening. After the 2nd raid and losing the roll I said screw it.

7 months to get those scales. Dang!

I would rather all game loot is separate for each player. Each player gets their own private loot drops so no rolling is required for anything. Not sure if there are any downsides to that or not, but it would sure help when looting is an issue.

Originally Posted by enginekid

I would rather all game loot is separate for each player. Each player gets their own private loot drops so no rolling is required for anything. Not sure if there are any downsides to that or not, but it would sure help when looting is an issue.

Getting your loot too easy is just as big a problem as it being too hard. If everyone only needs 1 run to get their loot, they have nothing to work for until the next content release.

Originally Posted by TheMeneldorian

Getting your loot too easy is just as big a problem as it being too hard. If everyone only needs 1 run to get their loot, they have nothing to work for until the next content release.

Thats true. I should have clarified. The loot each player gets would still be subject to random loot tables. So, you would not get the ultimate item everytime. It would be set by the devs to whatever they thought was appropriate.

Originally Posted by slflew

I agree. I suppose I'm a bit jaded after running Draigoch every week for 7 months before receiving my scales, and that's because my kin finally started awarding scales to folks that didn't have them. Particularly with high-end loot like that, it seems right to reward players that raid a lot (and help other people get loot) but might have poor loot rolls themselves.

If all those runs were kin runs, you not getting any scales after 28+ Draigoch runs sounds like more of a kin loot rules issue than anything else. We use a pretty simple system whereby nobody can take a 2nd First Age Token/4th Draigoch Scale/Whatever Most Desirable Item Is until everybody has one. I'm actually a bit surprised when I see other systems that don't do that (people with 3-4 First Ages while some of their kinmates still don't have one, for instance). Of course, if you have enough people raiding that it took 28 runs' worth of nobody getting extra scales before it finally got around to you, then never mind.

Anyway, I like the OP's suggestion as well. I've suggested something similar, except the ability to barter for the item would be directly related to how rare it is, and my idea focuses primarily on rare jewelry drops. If an item has a 5% chance to drop, then after 20 successful runs you can barter for it somewhere. Something like that.

/signed

i remember the tons and tons of turtle runs for the emblems, and when i finally got 6 they changed to everyone 1 emblem each, man that was a big grind with a big luck factor for some people pff

As long as its a 1:1 token:item ratio. I dont want to see a backslide to the pre-MMS days when you had to collect 20 barter tokens to earn one item, and every cluster had its own unique barter tokens, and usually 2 different kinds, and they all took inventory space...as long as its 1:1, then you can immediately trade them in for items.

The counterargument, of course, is that you'd have to make tokens 20 times more rare, and people dont like having to run an instance 20 times before a token drops for them.

I would prefer a system, though, where every player can independently loot the same corpse. No tokens involved, simpler and more elegant, and it would make group loot rules unnecessary. You know the mechanics exist because every player can independently loot skirmish lieutenants...but the question is whether they can change it so that each player has a chance to acquire different items from the same corpse, or if the corpse would always hold the same items for everyone.

This situation is something Turbine has struggled with in Lotro. In some cases, Turbine gives an equal number of barter coins to each character. In other cases, there may be a single coin. Apparently customers differ in their desire for how rewards are distributed.

Some people like the idea of a single drop that the group fights over. Meanwhile, there are people like me that like the give everybody the same reward even if this means my group has to run the instance 12 times - we all get the phat loot item after the 12th run.

I do not have any good solution to this problem. It is further complicated by the ability of players in many cases to swap characters out before the loot is distributed. Which character gets the credit for running total - the one that was there when the boss died - or the replacement that came in for the loot?

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

This situation is something Turbine has struggled with in Lotro. In some cases, Turbine gives an equal number of barter coins to each character. In other cases, there may be a single coin. Apparently customers differ in their desire for how rewards are distributed.

Some people like the idea of a single drop that the group fights over. Meanwhile, there are people like me that like the give everybody the same reward even if this means my group has to run the instance 12 times - we all get the phat loot item after the 12th run.

I do not have any good solution to this problem. It is further complicated by the ability of players in many cases to swap characters out before the loot is distributed. Which character gets the credit for running total - the one that was there when the boss died - or the replacement that came in for the loot?

Agreed, but all things otherwise being equal, I think the question of inventory space tips the scales for the one-rare-token model (and yes, I realize that'd create incentive to buy the Super Barter Wallet and thats money for Turbine...). And I thought they solved the problem of swapping in alts after the boss was already dead...?

I dont think anyone, though, would argue that having a guaranteed drop that 12 people fight over is better than everyone having an independent 1-in-12 chance for the same drop. Statistically its the same, of course, but you remove the factor of sometimes people are dicks

Lotro is already much casual friendly, dont need more freeloot content. Its ok that there items that are hard to get.
But the worst thing is that you can buy endgame weapons and gear in auction house,

I'm not sure if we're getting off tangent a bit but I think I need to restate/clarify my proposal.

The current system wherein everyone rolls would not be replaced, it would be supplemented by by the "after the 20th run you get a barter token or maybe a quest to go get whatever item you want from a vendor" system as exists in DDO. For those of you that are unaware DDO is a Turbine product so it's not like they'd be inventing this feature from scratch.

/Chuck

Originally Posted by voalkrynn2

I'm not sure if we're getting off tangent a bit but I think I need to restate/clarify my proposal.

The current system wherein everyone rolls would not be replaced, it would be supplemented by by the "after the 20th run you get a barter token or maybe a quest to go get whatever item you want from a vendor" system as exists in DDO. For those of you that are unaware DDO is a Turbine product so it's not like they'd be inventing this feature from scratch.

/Chuck

Understood. I like that system - keep the shiny drops for the wow/lucky roll factor, but also implement a system whereby the unlucky grinders can eventually be rewarded as well.

+1 too.

In my opinion, it would be a more equitable system if everybody in a raid gets one token for that raid, and with 12 tokens you can get one of the most interesting rewards at some NPC. This only for some specific loot, like dragon scales. Other loots, still interesting but not top priority ones, can still be shared the usual way.

In the case of Dragoch, a token could be one scale directly (he is so big he has many!), and you need 12 for the reward.
They can still be exchangable, so that all the raid can choose to give all scales (tokens) to someone, and you can share them between your characters, but, they are not in the loot; instead everybody get one directly and do whatever he want with it.

Originally Posted by floreane

In my opinion, it would be a more equitable system if everybody in a raid gets one token for that raid, and with 12 tokens you can get one of the most interesting rewards at some NPC. This only for some specific loot, like dragon scales. Other loots, still interesting but not top priority ones, can still be shared the usual way.

What if each player individually gets a 1/12 chance to get the item or token? Then you could get it on the first run.

Originally Posted by droid

Agreed, but all things otherwise being equal, I think the question of inventory space tips the scales for the one-rare-token model (and yes, I realize that'd create incentive to buy the Super Barter Wallet and thats money for Turbine...). And I thought they solved the problem of swapping in alts after the boss was already dead...?

I would not know if it is fixed or not for all instances. Swapping is not something that my buddies or I do. I rarely group with folks that swap.

Not that it is right or wrong. My personal preference is to earn the reward with the character that I am playing. In order to reduce group friction, I tend to group with people that have similar beliefs. There is plenty of opportunity for drama during group time via personality conflicts. No need to add potential trouble over loot distribution.

Originally Posted by droid

I dont think anyone, though, would argue that having a guaranteed drop that 12 people fight over is better than everyone having an independent 1-in-12 chance for the same drop. Statistically its the same, of course, but you remove the factor of sometimes people are dicks

IMhO - Based on what I've read from other posters, you are making an bad assumption. There seems to be several reasons for the one coin to fight over:

1) The raid leader wants to control loot distribution via Master Looter. Reward the player the leader wants to reward. The kinship is using a global loot distribtuion system. Dragon Kill Points. Ladder. Equal distribution does not work with a "Buy the phat loot of your choice" based on service.

2) Gambling is very popular in South Florida. Lot of money spent on Lottos. Dog Races. Gambling establishments. It is not something that appeals to me. These kind of people apparently get a rush when it is time to spin the wheel. It is better than chocolate for pleasure when they win.

I have trouble understanding the lure of gambling in all its forms. For me it is a simple rationale decision, I only bet when it is a game of skill, I am good at this game and I am convinced that my opponents are out classed.

I do not think there are a lot of jerks in Lotro doing the group instances. The jerks never get in a position to wreck havoc very often. The grouper grape vine and reporting system spreads the bad reputation far and fast on Meneldor. I do not think this "Herd" behavior is unique to Meneldor. I've seen this "Black Ball the jerk" mechanism at work in every game I have played - on all the servers.

It is common to see the occasional kin that has is real nice to their members. Considers all non-members prey. There is at least one of those on Meneldor. You soon learn to stay away from anyone that a member of a Jerk Kin.

Originally Posted by voalkrynn2

The current system wherein everyone rolls would not be replaced, it would be supplemented by by the "after the 20th run you get a barter token or maybe a quest to go get whatever item you want from a vendor" system as exists in DDO. For those of you that are unaware DDO is a Turbine product so it's not like they'd be inventing this feature from scratch.

What you want is a hybrid system. Keep the one coin that everyone fights over. Add another coin that everyone gets. When you get 20 of these coins, you can go to the barter vendor and buy your item. Turbine has to decide if they want to expend the resources to implement a hybrid system for all instances.

IMHO - It is not fair to put the 20 coins method in all the fight over the coin instances unless Turbine adds a single coin to fight over in the other instances.

The Turbine developers are really smart. They are aware of what is done in their other games. They are aware of what other companies in this genre do. There is a reason why they haven't done it.

Originally Posted by voalkrynn2

I'm not sure if we're getting off tangent a bit but I think I need to restate/clarify my proposal.

The current system wherein everyone rolls would not be replaced, it would be supplemented by by the "after the 20th run you get a barter token or maybe a quest to go get whatever item you want from a vendor" system as exists in DDO. For those of you that are unaware DDO is a Turbine product so it's not like they'd be inventing this feature from scratch.

/Chuck

I like this. I would have gone on more CD runs back in the day if a feature like this would have existed in LOTRO.

From yet another "Draigoch regular" yet to get a scale, I would appreciate this change.

Provided that it's an extra reward on top of the existing loot then I think it's a great idea.

It would keep players happy and increase the longevity and attendance of raids. It's also not so over the top that servers would be flooded with loot. It's perfect.

Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty

What you want is a hybrid system. Keep the one coin that everyone fights over. Add another coin that everyone gets. When you get 20 of these coins, you can go to the barter vendor and buy your item. Turbine has to decide if they want to expend the resources to implement a hybrid system for all instances.

IMHO - It is not fair to put the 20 coins method in all the fight over the coin instances unless Turbine adds a single coin to fight over in the other instances.

The Turbine developers are really smart. They are aware of what is done in their other games. They are aware of what other companies in this genre do. There is a reason why they haven't done it.

Turbine knows exactly what they have over in DDO Land, how it works, and [if they opted to do so] the resources to code it into raids in LOTRO Land.

Maybe I should try to find a more elaborate explanation on a website.......

http://ddowiki.com/page/Raid_loot_mechanic

Current End Reward Loot Mechanic
Also, after completing a raid a certain multiple of times (Usually 20, but varies for some raids) the quest giver's end reward will be special - generally a list of only raid loot. Each raid differs in exactly what and how many items you can select from:

Tempest's Spine - Does not implement this system.
Plane of Night - Select from 12 items every 20th. (From a pool of 20 items plus 6 +2 tomes - 46% of the list - Epic items are excluded)
The Titan Awakes - Select from ~10 items every 20th. (From a pool of 17 items plus 6 +2 tomes - 43% of the list)
Zawabi's Revenge - Select from 10 items every 20th. (From a pool of 16 items plus 6 +2 tomes - 45% of the list - Epic items are excluded)
The Reaver's Fate - Select from 8 items every 20th. (From a pool of 12 items plus 6 +3 tomes - 44% of the list)
Ascension Chamber - Select from ~8 items every 20th. (From a pool of 13 items plus 6 +3 tomes - 42% of the list.)

Etc. Etc.

Really depends on how different the game engine is between LOTRO and DDO. If the difference is too drastic then implimenting a system from one to the other probably is not very cost effective. I know, at least I assume the basics between the two may be simmilar but I doubt in the greater scheme as it were that they are exact.

Your suggestion would be nice though, would give me a reason to keep raiding as I would know that I "WILL" get that reward after X amount of times no matter the odds. As it is right now, that is not so certain and so the drive to keep at the raid is not very appealing. I can see some might keep at it over and over and the odds are that they will get the reward eventually from thier persistence but for me that's too much like a grind where the desired reward is not guaranteed if at all. And the grind in this game is the least favourite thing to do, heck I can't bring myself to complete a deed all that often, manage to once every few months but thats it.

To date I've only done the Draigoch Raid once, I was fortunate enough that time to get one armour token so now I'm only missing the Helm, but that was all I got, no scales or anything else. That said I have no real desire to do it again as getting scales for the cloak and the last armour token is a hit and miss affair. Not really all that much incentive to try again then for me. Not that getting a Draigoch raid started is easy, no one seems to want to do it as it is... Ignoring the fact that it bugs out I still have to wonder.

Oh, you mean you want basically our Moria/Loth/DG/OD tokens to apply to other things other then just the armour sets. I hated the OD bartering though, too many tokens were needed for the armour set + the actual piece item.

Originally Posted by voalkrynn2

I'm not sure if we're getting off tangent a bit but I think I need to restate/clarify my proposal.

The current system wherein everyone rolls would not be replaced, it would be supplemented by by the "after the 20th run you get a barter token or maybe a quest to go get whatever item you want from a vendor" system as exists in DDO. For those of you that are unaware DDO is a Turbine product so it's not like they'd be inventing this feature from scratch.

/Chuck

An excellent idea. Especially with Draigoch atm. But as Yula said, there is probably a good reason for it not being done, as skirmish barter and other rep systems have been revised-if not to everyone's satisfaction.

The problem with Draigoch are the players themselves.

Since the scales are tradeable, everybody collects them for their twinks. If the were bound on aquire, that problem would be solved.

However, BOA Draigoch scales would not be able to be given to a tailor to make those nice cloaks, so that doesn't work (unless they make the cloaks into barter items...an idea I like since it is similar to the Draigoch armor).

I also ran Drag way too many times and never won scales. But I did win a scale and gave it to my kin. Then after some more of these single scales were won they were nice enough to send me 3 scales in the mail. That is what a good kin does.

The DDO system was interesting, each person received totally separate loot from the boss chest. It was not class based, level based or what ever. It was just a random assignment of loot from the loot table for the boss. So for Drag you could run it and no one would win scales or maybe 4 or 5 people would win scales. It would just depend on the RNG gods.

I personally would rather see one of the great items show up each time. That way there is some great reward for the group.

That is just my opinion and others have their own.

Originally Posted by peterbutt

However, BOA Draigoch scales would not be able to be given to a tailor to make those nice cloaks, so that doesn't work (unless they make the cloaks into barter items...an idea I like since it is similar to the Draigoch armor).

Thats what I meant.
You need the Draigoch cloak for the Orthanc cloak, but getting Draig is almost harder than Orthanc by now.