Thread: Wardens in the Moors

This thread is being posted by proxy for Deregorn of Gladden, due to forum handicaps.


Wardens in the Moors. To make sure this is clear, this post is about PvP only. This does not
concern PvE content at all, and I think wardens are very well balanced in PvE.


I’ve seen some debate as to whether wardens are balanced in PvP. Here is why I believe wardens
are indeed overpowered in the moors. It’s not our self-heals, and it’s not our ranged DPS. It’s the
fact that we have access to both without retraiting. The main argument I’ve seen that wardens
are balanced is that our DPS sucks when shield traited. The thing is, it doesn’t. The red line adds
5% spear gambit damage, 5% melee damage, and some other bonuses to crit and DoTs. Yellow
line adds 5% ranged damage and more crit/DoT bonuses (although the improved Desolation can
be a good reason to trait yellow). Anyways, if our DPS is good when we’re traited for it, then it
isn’t much worse when traited shield. Shield traited, I’m able to drop most creeps in a matter of
seconds in both Assailment and Recklessness. Ranged DBD can still hit for around 4k on good
crits. We still have some of the most powerful bleeds in the game (possibly THE most powerful).
To me, it just seems unfair that we have arguably the best survivability in the game, practically
unlimited power sustenance and very potent ranged and melee DPS all in the same trait
line. It seems to me that we should at least need to trait for DPS to hit that hard. What do you
guys think?

Originally Posted by Shau'nac

and I think wardens are very well balanced in PvE.

hehehe, lol!
I managed to solo finish first foundry boss,
after the guardian we had with us stood
in the fire too long.
The others all died, with the boss around
150k morale.
At that time I was redline traited, I had
4x draigoch as best armour, even a yellow
piece on me with my Virtues around 8...

Yup, very well balanced at PvE...

But yes, I can see where the argument
comes from, the survivability is better than
a Guardians (if you survive the first 15 sec)
and dps in defensive mode is at least double
the dps of my Guardian.
Using Dtermination to get heals going,
switch to reckless to get the bleeds up...
too easy...

The thing is, even if we can still get good DPS while shield traited, to stack enough might to be able to hit hard, we loose a TON of survive-ability... IMO it's not possible to trait/gear shield.. and still keep decent DPS, you would have to trade vit for might, a lot of it...

When I run in the moors, I run with 2100 might and almost 27k PM... but that puts me around 7.5k morale, which means that a couple wargs could kill me before I even have a chance to get any heals off.. If i go out tank traited/geard, that puts me at about 12k PM.... not really enough to get many kills (at least IMO)

Though, I do understand that there are some wardens that gear/trait for a balance, which may work well, I have just not had a chance to try it yet.

Compared to the old days, we are ALOT more powerfull. I come across 10 rank 0-3 stalkers, I use DC and I could kill them all if they wouldnt run. This is too much!

I only have 1550 might, but I can still stack bleeds for 400 and 450/4s, for high auda creeps it isnt much, but for the lowbies it takes them down halfway...

We are definately overpowered in pvp!

There's a huge difference between being tank traited and being tank geared. Gear is what will give you most of your damage, while, as the OP suggested, traiting only marginally modifies your overall dps. Survivability, on the other hand, is significantly increased by traiting blue.

I'll trait yellow or red if I'm going to be in the moors for a while, but I often don't bother retraiting if I'm pvping between tanking gigs. I dont think I've ever lost a kill due to traits. With 16-17k phys mastery and 5b/2y, I do plenty of damage and can survive for a long time against as many as 5 creeps.

OP classes are just a fact of life these days...on both sides.

This is not about traits only, but to all tank spec in general: armour, jewels, traits, legacies, relics, ...

Warden DPS can be very good if u swap all the tank spec (vit, bpe, crit defense, resistance and mits) for physical mastery and might.

I still think a tank spec warden don't kill much, not even on 1v1s. Low/Mid ranked and/or bad skilled creeps must not get into consideration. Talking about high ranked and skilled creeps...

Plus the fact that the warden is the hardest class to play. I have seen tank spec wardens loosing spars, which all tank spec wardens need at least to draw, never lose.

As pointed by another warden in another threat, the harder class to play must have some benefits for those who can master it (other then fun of mastering it).

PS: Love to see guardians pissed about wardens. hehehe. Sorry guards.

PS2: Still think the best duo tank for ToO T2 CM is guard+warden.

Cheers for all wardens, OP or not OP. :P

Originally Posted by Altarias-EU

Compared to the old days, we are ALOT more powerfull. I come across 10 rank 0-3 stalkers, I use DC and I could kill them all if they wouldnt run. This is too much!

I only have 1550 might, but I can still stack bleeds for 400 and 450/4s, for high auda creeps it isnt much, but for the lowbies it takes them down halfway...

We are definately overpowered in pvp!

I could probably kill 10 greenie wargs SoM days, where we didnt had DC or NS. Your point is not valid, cause a r0-3 warg could be one day old in lotro. If you think that you can be considered as a threat on your first day in a game then lol...

FYI a burg/guard could also do it in SoM days. Atm a good champ/guard can also do it, why we mention only wardens?

Originally Posted by Tchad

This is not about traits only, but to all tank spec in general: armour, jewels, traits, legacies, relics, ...

Warden DPS can be very good if u swap all the tank spec (vit, bpe, crit defense, resistance and mits) for physical mastery and might.

I still think a tank spec warden don't kill much, not even on 1v1s. Low/Mid ranked and/or bad skilled creeps must not get into consideration. Talking about high ranked and skilled creeps...

Plus the fact that the warden is the hardest class to play. I have seen tank spec wardens loosing spars, which all tank spec wardens need at least to draw, never lose.

As pointed by another warden in another threat, the harder class to play must have some benefits for those who can master it (other then fun of mastering it).

PS: Love to see guardians pissed about wardens. hehehe. Sorry guards.

PS2: Still think the best duo tank for ToO T2 CM is guard+warden.

Cheers for all wardens, OP or not OP. :P

There should be a + rep in all that

Edit: nvm: You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Tchad again. :/

I think the wardens passively justifying our extreme advantage against significantly underpowered foes in PvMP are just laughable.

I'm very glad the Warden class is no longer broken like it was when ROI was released, that's the only reason I re-subbed after being gone JAN-APR. I've played all the classes and Warden is the only one that really interests me, all my other endgame toons have been essentially either collecting dust or used only for crafting.

In 1v1 setting: tank-spec Warden can beat anything except a Defiler with enhanced flies. Yes this is cool in a way.

In group setting: tank-spec Warden is just a tank in a dps race, not much more, even with the new awesome moors set bonuses (about time we got something useful by way of a set bonus). This is not so cool, but we live with it.

See the balance?

Overall, Warden is still the least played class in the Moors by a significant margin (source: Surugi.com). It takes a certain kind of person to enjoy playing tank-spec in the Moors, and there aren't very many of us, this is just not a big deal.

There are so many more high priority items that should be addressed in the Moors, I just don't understand anyone who complains if a player wants to come spec'd like a tank for PvMP. Is any creep really scared when he/she sees a tank-spec Warden coming their way? Really? I think you are just mad that you can't outlast these tank-spec Wardens in a long-drawn out fight if the Warden chooses to stack/spam self-heals (I don't play like that by the way, but who cares if some do). But honestly that's the exact same situation Defilers have always been in, few freeps can win a protracted battle against a good Defiler who is only trying to outlast the opponent. If it bothers you so much, then just don't fight tank-spec Wardens 1v1, problem solved - that's the same dilemma I'm in when a Defiler wants to 1v1 me and call enhanced flies every 30 seconds. There is no possible way I can kill that Defiler 1v1 if I'm tank-spec'd.

Yes I can take on several low-skill creeps by myself and often survive, often with no kills because they all get away. But if the creeps have higher rank skills (either by earning them or buying them in the store) and know what they are doing, 2-3 can kill me every single time in fairly short order unless help arrives quickly. In my experience, there are multiple creep classes that can nearly always get away if they really want to even with more than 2-3 good freeps trying to kill them.

So if you are a 1v1 oriented creep and it bothers you that there is one specific class spec'd a certain way that you can't beat in a 1v1, then I feel sorry for you - it shouldn't bother you. If it bothers you that a Warden can solo a keep/Tyrant in 15-20 minutes, I'm very curious as to why it bothers you. Any other situation, tell me what is so overpowered about what the Warden class brings to the table ... not much.

Oh look, i have better self heals than a defiler, almost as much dps as a reaver, +40% mits, all without having to retrait!

is balanced, dont worry.


Simple fix: do what orion said he was thinking of doing: limit self heal pulses to 1.
More complicated fix: Nerf base damage, buff red line.

Wardens have no role in a raid?

Put on 5 set spear, no heals for you!
Put on 5 set fist, slows for everyone!
Run around interrupting/harassing WLs/BAs. They switch focus to you? pop DC! Wee now youre invincible and buying time for your raid.

The only counter to a warden is a defiler with flies, and how many of those are there?

Just to throw something else into the mix:

Its probably debatable but arguably the Warden is one of the only freep classes without any real get-away skills:

Burg - HiPS (Touch and Go and Knives Out for survival)
Minstrel - Play Dead / Bubble / Self-Heals (all in WS)
RK - Vivid Imagery, Distracting Winds, various stuns, self-heals (some in any attunement)
LM - Multiple CC, stun-reflecting self heal. (LMs are probably most affected by recent changes )
Guard / Champ - CC breaks, Sprints, bubbles / Pledge, self heals.
Captain - Make Haste, Last Stand.
Hunter - some basic CC. does not need to outrun the Lion
Warden - Disco Challenge, Never Surrender, Self Heals - none of which help you get away just help you stand and fight longer.

Things are not so bright on Creep side but there are still some useful skills:

Warg - Sprint, Disappear
Defiler - Fear, Self Heals, {Dying Rage}
WL - Self Heals (a good WL will run all the way to the nearest keep / npcs with self heals).
Weaver - Webs, Stuns, Burrow, hatching heal
BA - Moving Target, Traps
Reaver - Needs love. {Dying Rage}

Many Orcs on Eldar use Dying rage just to deny you renown / kb. Its, by definition, not a "get-away" skill though.

Ultimately, when the proverbial hits the rotary and the Warden engages in battle, its pretty much win or die. 1v1s are non-existent on my server so I can't comment on those but if that is the reason people are asking for a nerf then I would like to know who they 1v1? The high rank Defilers, Wargs and Weavers I happen to 1v1 on occasion all could have gone either way. Mostly creeps are in groups which is what lower ranks should do. I would hate to see the Warden "balanced" so that a r5 BA could solo kill a skilled, well geared, well played Warden.

Speaking of which I easily killed a 15K Warden (who used NS, DC and pulled some wolves to leach morale from) with my R5 Warg. No store bought skills or items. Audacity at 4. This reinforces my belief that it is skill not just the class that makes the Warden so powerful.

It seems that the Wardens that believe we are too powerful are all r9/10+. I would argue that you / we are the exceptions not the rule. We have put in all the time and effort to master our class and the moors (creeps and their strengths and weaknesses, locations, tactics, etc.) and know how to deploy it to full effect.

TL;DR - Wardens are powerful not overpowered. Buff Creep don't nerf Warden.

P.S - Put (creep) audacity on a cost scale to help lower ranks get some

Audacity 2 - 2000 Commendations
A3 - 3000
A4 - 4000
A5 - 5000
A6 - 6000
A7 - 7000

On Riddermark there are a lot of defilers with enhanced flies. The creep groups like to stack healers and in keep fights, we sometimes fight 4-5 defilers with enhanced flies concurrently. And in group fights, this is far from the only counter to Wardens. In a 1v1, yes, but with a group that knows how, taking down any Warden is just as easy as taking down a Guardian (i.e. DC and Pledge essentially offset one another).

I have all 3 moors sets and I do hot-swap them as necessary. Keep in mind that only Wardens who have spent significant time in the Moors have these set bonuses. But it is rare that I can fully stack the red set -20% incoming heals debuff, so many misses and b/p/e's, it is hard to even keep 2 of them stacked since melee attacks are required. The yellow set slow is nice but it is not as big of a deal as some of you make it sound. Most creep slows are more potent so even if I can get most of the creep group slowed, it just reduces their speed advantage. Plus the better creeps carry stacks of the immunity pots/brands and when they want to lose the slow, they can and do often. So yes, I agree the harassment role is what makes the most sense, but I don't think anyone believes Wardens in that role greatly affect the outcome of very many big fights. On our server, when the creep raid focuses a Warden, a stun/fear/daze/silence/disarm chain quickly follows and DC never finishes. It is such a long and obvious animation, and the mit reduction doesn't apply until towards the end of the animation. When it does get off, creeps know to focus someone else until the mit bonus is gone.

I fully agree with Ravenstride, it's the skill of the player, not the class in general. I often see tank-spec Wardens get targeted and killed quickly that don't have lots of experience. The creeps know which Wardens are hard to kill and naturally save them until late into the fight, just like any other hard to kill freep.

The Warden class was broken for months after ROI came out, I just don't think a Moors nerf on top of whatever other changes we'll see with Rohan is the right thing to do. Especially since there are so many real problems in the Moors that should be addressed. Plus, Warden is the least played PvMP class on both sides - a nerf would only magnify that issue. Is eliminating the blue trait line for use in the moors really being considered? (setting heal pulses to 1 effectively eliminates the blue line from consideration)

Originally Posted by Ravenstride

Just to throw something else into the mix:

Its probably debatable but arguably the Warden is one of the only freep classes without any real get-away skills:

Indeed it is debatable.
Our selfheals (paired with our defenses) are comparable with many of your other "escape skills"

With my badly geared Warden I was able to fight more than 20 minutes inside grothum against a medium to high rank weaver, several NPCs and finally a WL. Finally I died because I got tired and made a mistake.

Considering I kept a self healing of around 300 during all the fight the Weaver could not kill me regardless of what he tried. Of course I was not able to damage him so I ended doing all my killing quests while Weaver and later WL pounded om me.

Does it mean that we are overpowered? I do not think so... after all I could not dent the weaver morale (maximum drop was 1k) so Weaver was as overpowered as me .

I do not see any problem in having a class that cannot be defeated in a 1vs1 as long as that same class cannot win the 1vs1. In order to be able to win, you should lower your defenses (trait or gear) in order that you can be defeated.

Originally Posted by Ravenstride

TL;DR - Wardens are powerful not overpowered. Buff Creep don't nerf Warden.

P.S - Put (creep) audacity on a cost scale to help lower ranks get some

Audacity 2 - 2000 Commendations
A3 - 3000
A4 - 4000
A5 - 5000
A6 - 6000
A7 - 7000

Agreed completely.

Originally Posted by Tchad

I still think a tank spec warden don't kill much, not even on 1v1s. Low/Mid ranked and/or bad skilled creeps must not get into consideration. Talking about high ranked and skilled creeps...

Gear>traits Traiting shield should not gimp your overall ability to put out decent dps...so why wouldn't you be able to "kill much" 1v1 or in any other situation?

Originally Posted by gageithman

Simple fix: do what orion said he was thinking of doing: limit self heal pulses to 1.

1 pulse? You are just destroying shieldline, not fixing anything.

One of the actual fixes they could do would be increasing the CD for DC or nerfing the amount of additional mits.

Originally Posted by Priestetute

1 pulse? You are just destroying shieldline, not fixing anything.

You'd still be able to 2v1(Possibly 3v1) things with only 1 pulse.
Most classes you can already beat 1v1 without self heals altogether in shield line (I.E. that is finishing the fight with majority of your hit points). Call BS on it and I'll upload a video just to prove it.

The only thing it would destroy is the obscene ezmode currently abused. But, if that's the definition of shield-line, I guess we can compromise on that change destroying shield-line ...

It's amusing how I observe how some shield wardens on my server 1v1. DC/NS are included as purely acceptable in shield traits to 1v1 with in their eyes. Impromtu or organised, doesn't matter. Pretty laughable when you think about how that view would have been instilled.

Originally Posted by Untg99

You'd still be able to 2v1(Possibly 3v1) things with only 1 pulse.
Most classes you can already beat 1v1 without self heals altogether in shield line (I.E. that is finishing the fight with majority of your hit points). Call BS on it and I'll upload a video just to prove it.

The only thing it would destroy is the obscene ezmode currently abused. But, if that's the definition of shield-line, I guess we can compromise on that change destroying shield-line ...

It's amusing how I observe how some shield wardens on my server 1v1. DC/NS are included as purely acceptable in shield traits to 1v1 with in their eyes. Impromtu or organised, doesn't matter. Pretty laughable when you think about how that view would have been instilled.

If I'm ever shield traited, i regularly 1v1 without hots against everything except flyspamming defilers so I agree with you for the most part about 1v1 behavior.

But as far as PvE in the moors, consider how hard soloing a chieftain,tyrant, etc. would be with access to only 1 pulse shield line.

Originally Posted by Priestetute

1 pulse? You are just destroying shieldline, not fixing anything.

*can still 1v1 anything without heals in shield line*
*cannot 3v1+ or solo keeps*
BUFF PLZ!!


Seriously though, shield line wardens without HoT pulses is still amazing; crit immunity vs a shadow warg? Yes pls.
It would still be viable, people would just run in reckless while traited shield.

Originally Posted by gageithman

*can still 1v1 anything without heals in shield line*
*cannot 3v1+ or solo keeps*
BUFF PLZ!!

You could solo tyrants and 3v1 pre u6, were you proposing for shield traited wardens to only have access to 1 pulse back then?

Originally Posted by Priestetute

You could solo tyrants and 3v1 pre u6, were you proposing for shield traited wardens to only have access to 1 pulse back then?

No, because shield line without the self heals wasnt as powerful, audacity didnt screw up all healing yet, and they didnt have access to the damage they do now.

It doesn't matter if the nerf was asked for between ROI and U6. The class was broken during that time. Wardens were leaving the class/game left and right and it horribly affected pve AND pvmp. The effect of all the ROI changes was that the class was severely nerfed and it stayed that way for many months.

From day 1 for the Warden class, when Moria was released almost 3 years ago, people complain about Warden survivability. We've always had good self heals that stack, we've always had good lifetaps that affect 10 foes (although they've only recently been called lifetaps in general). And we've never had good gear set bonuses that other classes had with the possible exception of the DN onslaught bonus that few Wardens ever attained.

After ROI broke the class, Orion said he messed up and didn't scale the HOTS to match the cap increase from 65 to 75. He said he wanted to return the class to its former glory. He also said the class was getting a workover and it took months to get accomplished and months for the bugs/oversights to get addressed.

Now the class isn't broken again (finally).

Yes Audacity helps Wardens more than most but it is also offset by Finesse hurting Wardens more than most.

Going forward, there is NO REASON to completely remove the incentive to trait blue line for the moors. There is simply not enough else in the blue line to trait it for if heal pulses are reduced to 1. That would essentially mean that virtually all Wardens are red traited in the moors with a handful yellow if they always play in raids and only want to try to harass the creep raid. I wouldn't mind if there was a greater difference in damage output between traiting red line and blue line - I never understood why the +30% damage to Warden's Triumph was removed from the red capstone in the first place.

Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon

I could probably kill 10 greenie wargs SoM days, where we didnt had DC or NS. Your point is not valid, cause a r0-3 warg could be one day old in lotro. If you think that you can be considered as a threat on your first day in a game then lol...

FYI a burg/guard could also do it in SoM days. Atm a good champ/guard can also do it, why we mention only wardens?

Nimolas, as one of the highest ranked wardens on our server, you should know Wardens are more Overpowered than champs and grds. Even I, and im an unskilled noob, can handle 8+ low ranked wargies. I doubt if a champion is able to do so.

Cheers

Seeing as there is no need to retype what I already typed...

Originally Posted by SirDoctorofTardis

...

Now onto the topic of nerfing the warden. I have addressed in another thread, which called for wardens to be nerfed, the lack of thought demonstrated, but I shall repeat myself. Comparatively the warden is the hardest class to play well in lotro. This is a fact not a point of debate. The effect of difficulty of play resulted in a low mean warden performance. This is the reason so few wardens tanked end game post RoI, why so few still tanked in U5. Going back to pre-RoI, the trend still occurred, only a handful of wardens were tanking at the beginning of BG/OD. There is no rationale to have a class purely designed for the outliers.

More importantly, a class that is comparatively the hardest to play should fundamentally (when played to full potential) be better than its counterpart. Does it make sense to work harder to net the same result? No. The class is not a masochist seeking difficulty for its own reward. U6 changes have placed the warden in a level, in which difficulty of play is matched with potential ability. This bumps up the mean performance of warden players to be competitive with guardians. The previous outliers now perform superior to guardians. This is the reason why some warden players may call for a nerf to pve aspects of the class to give them a challenge.

But it is not all about PvE, there is pvp. Is the spear line warden more powerful than before? Yes. Is a shield line warden more powerful than before? Yes. Are they overpowered? Let's explore the answer. Look at the number of wardens that pvp. They are very few. Compare the number to other classes, you will see a significant difference. More importantly, in the so called age of the "overpowered" warden, you see the smallest rise in the number of players in the ettenmoors. Compare the rise to other classes denoted with the title of "overpowered". There is a difference in the rise of the warden players and other classes. Why is this? Ta da! Because the warden is a difficult class to play. Why the rise in players? You average warden now feels capable of going out to pvp, with their flexibility in abilities. Plus, for some, the class is more fun.

Now the numbers of warden pvpers really doesn't answer the question of "overpowered". It just demonstrates the evidence that difficulty of play argument correlates with pvp. By the same fundamental reasoning, the warden should be a powerful class in the ettenmoors. Again it does not make sense to work harder and net the same result of other classes that are far easier to play. Ah, but we still have Le Outliers. These outliers are the wardens that these anecdotes are often centered around that call out for the nerf. Does it make sense to nerf a class based on outlier performance alone? Certainly not.

Still more points to be discussed. When discussing "overpowered", this means that all other parties are "empowered". When comparing two parties, if one party is not empowered and the other is empowered, the latter is not overpowered. Rather the former is simply not empowered. To remedy the situation simply empower the other party. While one party is not empowered, we cannot determine if something is overpowered seeing as by comparative value anything that is empowered will appear overpowered. Basically creeps need to be fixed first before this discussion of qualifying "overpowered". Until then, any usage of it is premature, reflecting the dissatisfaction of players with the status of one side.

Lastly, in regards to the famous anecdotes that warrant the cries of "nerf!", these are typically the outlier players, but not always. The creep perspective of the anecdote tells how the warden is overpowered. Some wardens players have come to accept this as the case. The alternative explanation is poor play by creeps. This is not a question of ego, but fact. Though wardens are a powerful class to deal with, especially during the current status of creepside, there are more than enough tools/tactics to use to beat them. Power drains (defiler/spiders) is by far the simplest. There are also well timed silences, - attack duration debuffs, disarms, -inc healing debuffs (that can stack), moving out of range of leaches, kiting and so forth. There is no reason for a warden to last 10 minutes as some anecdotes tell, if creeps are actually using their abilities. Will the warden last two minutes or so? Probably if they burn everything, but so what, no cool downs are needed by creeps. Of course if this is a bunch of greenies, the fight won't likely be in the creeps favor. This is not an issue of the warden, but the nature of greenie creeps.

Putting it all together, is the warden overpowered? No. Does it need to be nerfed yet? No. Should a shield line warden be able to take on multiple creeps? You bet. I dislike shield line warden's simply because it is the easier path, but it does not mean that shield line wardens are wrong. They should be able to take on the dps of multiple creeps. It doesn't mean the warden won't die. That is all dependent on the creep class make up, the number of creeps and the abilities of the players to play well. Should a shield line warden beat almost all classes in a 1v1? Yes! Saying no would be destroying a role of the class. The warden is meant to self heal and take a beating. The case is no different for a defiler versus a majority of the freep classes, they are capable of self healing/draining their power while taking time to dps the freep down. Ironically a warden with the spear lord set is one of the most adapt classes at taking on the defiler, but I do not know specifically seeing as I have not had the chance to test it out against a good defiler.

Hopefully the next update will boost creepside to an empowered level, where the warden is still more powerful, just not at the current disparity present. Simply being empowered does not change the inabilities of players to play well. Meaning we will still see some cases that result in complaints, just as we see some freeps complaining about creeps.

Some players have been convinced by the frequent narrative of the "overpowered warden". There is more to the equation than just what the warden can do. When you take into account all the other variables that contribute to the anecdotal combat events, including the status of creepside development, one should realize that terming the class as "overpowered" is premature.

Originally Posted by SirDoctorofTardis

Seeing as there is no need to retype what I already typed...



Some players have been convinced by the frequent narrative of the "overpowered warden". There is more to the equation than just what the warden can do. When you take into account all the other variables that contribute to the anecdotal combat events, including the status of creepside development, one should realize that terming the class as "overpowered" is premature.

Wardens are so overpowered because of the lack of creepside development. Sapience has said that there is no creepside development on 'the road map' for the next 6-9 months. Even vs balanced foes, shield wardens will still be over the top.

What is actually going to be changing with RoR? We get more/new things?

Originally Posted by Untg99

Wardens are so overpowered because of the lack of creepside development. Sapience has said that there is no creepside development on 'the road map' for the next 6-9 months. Even vs balanced foes, shield wardens will still be over the top.

What is actually going to be changing with RoR? We get more/new things?

I have no idea if and when Turbine gets to fixing creepside. It does me no good to speculate. All that is evident is the multiple factors for the anecdotes of the "overpowered warden", namely the poor quality of creep design. I've said it multiple times, in such a poor state, anything that is powerful will appear by relativity "overpowered". The warden SHOULD be powerful. A shield line warden is most survivable form of a powerful class. Therefore it should a force to be reckon with. As for the claim that against balanced foes shield line wardens will still be over the top, how do you know where creep design will in the future? Where is the magical ball that provides the evidence for this claim? Assuming Turbine fixes creepside eventually, we have no idea as to the position creeps will be in. I have already said the shield line warden should be able to take on 2-3 creeps, but not with ease. So again we return to the premature conclusion that the difference in power level of a shield line warden and the future status of creepside will be still over the top.

Players are unhappy with the current status of pvp, for good reason. Players fear for the future of pvp. As Yoda said: "Fear is the path to the darkside" Let's not go to the darkside where our fear leads us to demand for a premature nerfs of classes.

See, I'm looking at these responses and wincing, because my warden sucks in the moors. I've never gotten the hang of the usual melee dancing around your target thing, to begin with, and the problem is just compounded on a warden, as I have to hit my target 3-5 times before I can even try to get them with anything good. And I know, masteries, but you can only use them once every 15s, and most encounters in pvmp between two players are much shorter than that.

In theory I'd use assailment in the moors, but I always feel paper thin in that stance. No heals, half my usual buffs. Just bleh.

Disclaimer: I do, however, agree that the warden is in a great place in PvE. Nor am I ranting that the warden is no good in PvMP. I know some excellent PvMP wardens. So just my two coppers.

Originally Posted by SirDoctorofTardis

I have already said the shield line warden should be able to take on 2-3 creeps

Why so humble? Lets make it 12 creeps. Imagine how much bigger your e-peen would grow!

Originally Posted by gunlang

Why so humble? Lets make it 12 creeps. Imagine how much bigger your e-peen would grow!

Originally Posted by SirDoctorofTardis

...I dislike shield line warden's simply because it is the easier path, but it does not mean that shield line wardens are wrong. They should be able to take on the dps of multiple creeps. It doesn't mean the warden won't die. That is all dependent on the creep class make up, the number of creeps and the abilities of the players to play well. Should a shield line warden beat almost all classes in a 1v1? Yes! Saying no would be destroying a role of the class. The warden is meant to self heal and take a beating.

Reading comprehension is often under appreciated.

It may behoove you to know a little bit about the poster

Originally Posted by SirDoctorofTardis

I have no idea if and when Turbine gets to fixing creepside. It does me no good to speculate. All that is evident is the multiple factors for the anecdotes of the "overpowered warden", namely the poor quality of creep design. I've said it multiple times, in such a poor state, anything that is powerful will appear by relativity "overpowered". The warden SHOULD be powerful. A shield line warden is most survivable form of a powerful class. Therefore it should a force to be reckon with. As for the claim that against balanced foes shield line wardens will still be over the top, how do you know where creep design will in the future? Where is the magical ball that provides the evidence for this claim? Assuming Turbine fixes creepside eventually, we have no idea as to the position creeps will be in. I have already said the shield line warden should be able to take on 2-3 creeps, but not with ease. So again we return to the premature conclusion that the difference in power level of a shield line warden and the future status of creepside will be still over the top.

Players are unhappy with the current status of pvp, for good reason. Players fear for the future of pvp. As Yoda said: "Fear is the path to the darkside" Let's not go to the darkside where our fear leads us to demand for a premature nerfs of classes.

The most balanced PvP has ever been with the warden class included was during the time they were apparently useless everywhere (U4). Spear line I felt was challenging at that time, only against certain foes, there was absolutely no incentive for shield line coming from the previous bias, and it did in fact take effort to 1v1 in shield line. That honestly, was some of the most fun I'd had in ages, and I felt like the warden, strictly in terms of PvP was right where it should have been. Of course there could have been some tweaks here and there, but for the most part I liked it.
If creeps were brought to balance, would their changes still be able to keep up with a mobile self healing tank? We can't know for certain, but without some sort of limiting change to what the warden is currently capable of, I can see that 2v1 will still be a joke, 3v1 will still be fairly easy, with anything else only starting to add layers of difficulty. This is assuming that no healer type is in the combat. Right now, against an adept and prepared warden, layers of difficulty come in when there is more than half a dozen creeps.

Why can I see it like this? Well, because that's exactly the way it's been in the past.

There is no question that the warden is currently overpowered versus the opposition in PvMP, due to lack of development of course. However, consider that the next allocated time for PvMP Development is not scheduled within the next 6-9 months. I'd hardly call a nerf to self heals within that time premature for the coming creepside scale.

Seriously, reading comprehension is under appreciated.

Originally Posted by Untg99

The most balanced PvP has ever been with the warden class included was during the time they were apparently useless everywhere (U4). Spear line I felt was challenging at that time, only against certain foes, there was absolutely no incentive for shield line coming from the previous bias, and it did in fact take effort to 1v1 in shield line. That honestly, was some of the most fun I'd had in ages, and I felt like the warden, strictly in terms of PvP was right where it should have been. Of course there could have been some tweaks here and there, but for the most part I liked it.
If creeps were brought to balance, would their changes still be able to keep up with a mobile self healing tank? We can't know for certain, but without some sort of limiting change to what the warden is currently capable of, I can see that 2v1 will still be a joke, 3v1 will still be fairly easy, with anything else only starting to add layers of difficulty. This is assuming that no healer type is in the combat. Right now, against an adept and prepared warden, layers of difficulty come in when there is more than half a dozen creeps.

What you describe here is exactly the point I referenced regarding the outliers. Players that performing that the higher end of the bell curve will likely manage to produce this current power level state of the warden in pvp (i.e. the overpowered warden). Frankly you are not thinking straight when you say the most balanced pvp came during U4. Did you see how the other wardens performed in pvp in this update? Maybe the creeps on your server are easier prey. I mean I was baffled by your post on the "go nerf yourself" thread where you said reavers are on a leveling footing with spear line. Last time I engaged some of the best reavers (at max audacity) with two armor pieces it was a joke. If players are easier prey, it further leads to the perception of overpowered. Returning back to U4, on Elendilmir a lot the wardens (not talking about myself) that were running spear line were getting destroyed by creeps. Even some shield line wardens would die or come near to death at the end of spars. Now that is balanced? It does not make sense to work harder and produce the same level of play.

Originally Posted by Untg99

We can't know for certain, but without some sort of limiting change to what the warden is currently capable of, I can see that 2v1 will still be a joke, 3v1 will still be fairly easy, with anything else only starting to add layers of difficulty.

Wait we can't know because we have no information about what the future designs will hold, but we can still use this lack of evidence to reason that we know certain forms of combat will still be trivial? What if they add is more power drains? Better damage output that scales with freep ability to heal? More incoming healing debuffs? All of which could easily affect combat against a shield line warden in 2v1/3v1. Your conclusion is far too premature.

Originally Posted by Untg99

Why can I see it like this? Well, because that's exactly the way it's been in the past.

Yes, that is absolutely sound reasoning. I mean judging by that reasoning, the warden was a side class, only utilized in raiding by the higher end spectrum players, so since that happened in the past, clearly turbine was not going to fix our class. Oh wait they did. The past may have some suggestive indications for speculation, but nothing about the past is definitive on what will happen in the future.

Originally Posted by Untg99

However, consider that the next allocated time for PvMP Development is not scheduled within the next 6-9 months. I'd hardly call a nerf to self heals within that time premature for the coming creepside scale.

Originally Posted by Sapience

I had a quick chat this AM to get an answer to the how long is the road map question. The road map is actually very long, but we break it down into 6-9 month blocks for review. At this time, within that window, there are no plans to add a new PvMP map.

Might want to re-read that post again, particularly where its addressing a new map. Nothing about not updating the current poor quality of creepside.

Edit: I want to throw in one last point of common sense ( again mentioned in before on another thread). Assume Turbine doesn't fix creepside for a long time. Are you telling me then that a company that rejects all these complaints and demands to improve creepside will just happen to say "well let's listen to their claims of nerfing some classes instead". If they are going to reject the complaints about improving creepside, they sure as heck are going to reject the claims for nerfing a class's role. It would be more work to fine tune a nerfing of freeps in the moors than to simply buff up creeps.

For real stop complaing our class finally got some good attention and now you want them to downgrade the warden FAIL. Dont touch the warden if moors is soooooo easy for some people then try something different ( take your armour off, solo good high rank creeps, or just have fun....)

Originally Posted by SirDoctorofTardis

Seriously, reading comprehension is under appreciated.



What you describe here is exactly the point I referenced regarding the outliers. Players that performing that the higher end of the bell curve will likely manage to produce this current power level state of the warden in pvp (i.e. the overpowered warden). Frankly you are not thinking straight when you say the most balanced pvp came during U4. Did you see how the other wardens performed in pvp in this update? Maybe the creeps on your server are easier prey. I mean I was baffled by your post on the "go nerf yourself" thread where you said reavers are on a leveling footing with spear line. Last time I engaged some of the best reavers (at max audacity) with two armor pieces it was a joke. If players are easier prey, it further leads to the perception of overpowered. Returning back to U4, on Elendilmir a lot the wardens (not talking about myself) that were running spear line were getting destroyed by creeps. Even some shield line wardens would die or come near to death at the end of spars. Now that is balanced? It does not make sense to work harder and produce the same level of play.



Wait we can't know because we have no information about what the future designs will hold, but we can still use this lack of evidence to reason that we know certain forms of combat will still be trivial? What if they add is more power drains? Better damage output that scales with freep ability to heal? More incoming healing debuffs? All of which could easily affect combat against a shield line warden in 2v1/3v1. Your conclusion is far too premature.


Yes, that is absolutely sound reasoning. I mean judging by that reasoning, the warden was a side class, only utilized in raiding by the higher end spectrum players, so since that happened in the past, clearly turbine was not going to fix our class. Oh wait they did. The past may have some suggestive indications for speculation, but nothing about the past is definitive on what will happen in the future.




Might want to re-read that post again, particularly where its addressing a new map. Nothing about not updating the current poor quality of creepside.

Edit: I want to throw in one last point of common sense ( again mentioned in before on another thread). Assume Turbine doesn't fix creepside for a long time. Are you telling me then that a company that rejects all these complaints and demands to improve creepside will just happen to say "well let's listen to their claims of nerfing some classes instead". If they are going to reject the complaints about improving creepside, they sure as heck are going to reject the claims for nerfing a class's role. It would be more work to fine tune a nerfing of freeps in the moors than to simply buff up creeps.

Leading up to U4 from RoI, I was among the most active on my warden I've ever been. I found it great fun. Sure, I didn't like shield line, and things were very sketchy, but I can't help that this period was the time I enjoyed warden PvP most out of the last 7 updates. Whether that is a reflection of where I was with the warden class, mixed with the class at the time, I'm not sure, but I have always held the opinion that the warden is not something the casual player should neccesarily be mastering with ease. Hence I hung my head at the dummying down at U6.

1v1 reaver fights are pretty balanced, and Imo have always kinda been. Reavers are the only foe's that require me to not lance around in cosmetics. Ukrush(?) of Meneldor was transferred to windfola since just prior to isengard, and he bested me most fights in spear line, but it was my failing. He was probably the most skilled reaver I've ever fought against or seen 1v1. The fights should have been balanced. I'm not so sure I could do better now, certainly have not had all that much more practice, but just because of audacity drawing fights out longer and the duration of DoT's, I can see myself doing marginally better simply because of the class changes.

In terms of PvMP development, there are pretty stable patterns of how things are going to work since moria. I wouldn't expect them to change all that much. I would expect a simple fix from turbine (adding in an easy fix instead of spending resources developing an entire faction to counter) because that's all part of the experience.


With RoR, what new things could we expect for our class? Assume they balanced things with the release of the expansion, or the update after. How long will that balance prevail for? 1 update like it did in RoI?
I'm pretty nostalgic on this whole thing. Discount my entire opinion if this is simply my expression of how I miss how things used to be before any nub could run around being invincible.

Originally Posted by gageithman

The only counter to a warden is a defiler with flies, and how many of those are there?

How many are there without?

Originally Posted by Untg99

With RoR, what new things could we expect for our class? Assume they balanced things with the release of the expansion, or the update after. How long will that balance prevail for? 1 update like it did in RoI?
I'm pretty nostalgic on this whole thing. Discount my entire opinion if this is simply my expression of how I miss how things used to be before any nub could run around being invincible.

I completely get where you are coming from. I used to believe that warden's needed a self heal nerf. I didn't think this because it was the "right thing to do", rather it was because of my hubris. I felt that these shield line players cheapened the skill and ability that I demonstrated on the battle field. I knew that if they nerfed the self healing in shield line, I would be unaffected and it would place these other less talented wardens in their place. The narrative projected from some players on creepside added more fuel to the fire, which I bought into for a bit. Then I started to think, disassociated myself from the claims of others and my pride. The result is the reasoning presented on the thread so far. It's just not reasonable to have a class designed around what I am able to do with it or what other outliers are able to do.

What was the warden class? What did it used to be?

Compare the answer of that question to the present, and it's just &&&& man.