Thread: Battle-frenzy vs Sudden defence legacies

Hello

I just got to 75 today with my champ and have a developed a L75SA 1H sword with the following legacies (the ones that I like )
* Wild attack dmg
* Remorseless strike dmg
* AoE dmg
* Critical dmg
* Battle-frenzy c/d
* Sudden defence c/d

The problem is that I don't have points for all of them, and will probably replace either battle frenzy or sudden defence with a legacy of might/vitality. The question is... which one would you keep? Having a minstrel as my main, I really like that bubble when things turn south, that buys more time to the healer also in group instances...


Thank's a lot
Óscar

My 75 FA sword i put brutal attacks, crit multi, AoE dmg, bleed dmg, sudden defense and might. I trait for bleeds when in ferver and 1m sudden defense in the moors is AWESOME!

Battle frenzy, SD on a swap weapon.

Swapping weapons can be difficult mid-battle, but if you feel you can pull that off comfortably (generally by having the melee weapons you use next to each other on a quickslot bar), then I would suggest having "secondary" legacies built up to their maximum rank on a swap weapon, while having the ones you nearly always use under normal circumstances on your main weapon.

I do this with a two-handed sword / one-handed axe x2 combo, and it works out quite well. I have my two-handed weapon built specifically for the purpose of burst damage (a focus on DPS, Brutal Strikes Damage, Relentless Strikes Damage, and Critical Damage Multiplier legacies), while I have the ones I generally use on my one-handed axe. The end result is that when I'm appropiately traited in the Berserker line and in Fervour stance, with 4-5 fervour available, I can suddenly swap to my two-handed sword and use a combination of Brutal Strikes > Clobber (for extra damage with a two-handed weapon) > Merciful strike. If even one of those hits score a critical, the result is pretty nasty for whoever is on the receiving end, not to mention that Brutal Strikes is considerably stronger with a two-handed weapon -- also, the net damage from using a two-handed weapon can definintely be higher than using two comparable one-handed weapons.

Of course, my weapons in question are both Second Age Legendary Items and therefore have more legend points and DPS to spare than a Third Age weapon, but this principle should work well with any set of weapons really.

Anyway, I digress. Having a Sudden Defense available on a one-minute cooldown can be very handy for scripted events in boss fights, and a maxed-out Battle Frenzy cooldown only brings it down to 40 seconds, but I would go with trying to max out Wild Attack Damage, Relentless Strikes Damage, Critical Damage Multiplier, and Sudden Defense Cooldown. From there, I would next strike a healthy balance between Area-of-Effect Damage and Battle Frenzy Cooldown. The legacies on my own one-handed axe are not so different from yours, actually.

Personally i prefer the battle frenzy legacy, i used to have sudden defence maxed but now changed it and go with battle frenzy + might legacy... Reason mainly is that while dpsing not even once i needed to use sudden than often... and if i needed to do so it meaned tank was down and no bubble could save me and my little pathetical morale xD (5.2k on dps build).... so i just dumped it and went to battle frenzy which does help sustain my fervour generation much easier even if it sounds like a minor change.

Put both on a swap weapon and use a macro keyboard (if available) and get stats instead of them on your main weapon

Hi, thank's for your replies.

Actually I'm not going to the Ettenmoors and don't have a gamer keyboard for macros (anyway I play with the right side keypad and all those fancy buttons are in the left side...). My minstrel has a swap wpn for Rally! (in combat rezz) and it is painful enough to lose all that morale when the tank has just gone down and mobs will probably come at her. I don't feel comfortable with it. Perhaps the error is putting so much morale & power on relics, but it is already done. So I won't be using a manual swap in my champ either.

Then, back to the question. TBH, the reduction from 1 min to 40s in frenzy does not seem that much to me. And I feel that the bubble is important, because when I was healing with my minstrel, champ bubbles have saved people when two of them were low morale and one of them happened to be a champ that bubbled.

This is how I see it and I am therefore biased towards sudden defence, but as I don't have that much experience in instances with my champ, still have the doubt.

Thank's a lot
Óscar

I have those exact legacies on my 1h and I don't like swapping either (especially for SD, which is already annoyingly slow). With 750 points, you have exactly enough to max the dps, max Remorseless, Wild, AoE and Crit, get Battle Frenzy to -12s and get SD to -63s.

I find Battle Frenzy CD to be extremely useful as I use it for some extra burst DPS in single target fights, and burst AoE in trash pulls. The -12s cooldown is sort of the sweet spot for me as it usually means it's coming off CD between each trash pull in Foundry. Cutting a minute off SD's CD is nice, too, as you can really shorten the CD when tanking (i.e. with Call of the Wild traited) and with a 2 min bubble instead of 3, you can hit it more often for when you know you'll need it (slugs in acid trash, adds in acid boss fight, Draigoch's claws in phase 3, etc.). If I had a 1st Age (man I blow at rolls) I'd probably bump the SD legacy before the BF one.

Originally Posted by avaaescaner

Hi, thank's for your replies.

Actually I'm not going to the Ettenmoors and don't have a gamer keyboard for macros (anyway I play with the right side keypad and all those fancy buttons are in the left side...). My minstrel has a swap wpn for Rally! (in combat rezz) and it is painful enough to lose all that morale when the tank has just gone down and mobs will probably come at her. I don't feel comfortable with it. Perhaps the error is putting so much morale & power on relics, but it is already done. So I won't be using a manual swap in my champ either.

Then, back to the question. TBH, the reduction from 1 min to 40s in frenzy does not seem that much to me. And I feel that the bubble is important, because when I was healing with my minstrel, champ bubbles have saved people when two of them were low morale and one of them happened to be a champ that bubbled.

This is how I see it and I am therefore biased towards sudden defence, but as I don't have that much experience in instances with my champ, still have the doubt.

Thank's a lot
Óscar

A Champion's primary role is DPS, and Battle Frenzy CD will increase your DPS, whereas Sudden Defense CD will not. There are also several non-DPS, emergency skills that you will need full or near-full Fervour to activate, and won't you regret not legacing it if it's still on CD? Besides, unless you are running solo all the time or you only group with God-awful tanks, Sudden Defense should never be needed more than Battle Frenzy.

Having said that, I'd advise you to legacy both. I also think the AOE damage legacy is not a priority, given that most boss fights are single target fights, and that's where people have trouble with anyways.

Yeah, but the AoE legacy increases Blade-wall damage, which is still good for boss fights.

Originally Posted by Gylve

Yeah, but the AoE legacy increases Blade-wall damage, which is still good for boss fights.

Blade Wall only applies to dual wielders, and I believe dual wield loses too much DPS on single target boss fights (but this is an issue that's been flogged to death elsewhere, so I won't dwell on it). Moreover, I would imagine Blade Wall might pose problems in some boss fights where you don't want to be AOE-ing (e.g. Frost & Fire wing or Fangorn's Edge T2).

(when I played) BF CD was a must have legacy for any weapon. If you need to use SD that much in pve you need to find a new tank.

Well, the OP was talking about a 1-hander. But yeah, for AoE sensitive fights I just use Swift instead of Blade-wall. Not too many single target fights where you don't want to AoE though, so generally I find the legacy extremely useful for almost every situation.

Originally Posted by Miretocot

A Champion's primary role is DPS, and Battle Frenzy CD will increase your DPS, whereas Sudden Defense CD will not. There are also several non-DPS, emergency skills that you will need full or near-full Fervour to activate, and won't you regret not legacing it if it's still on CD? Besides, unless you are running solo all the time or you only group with God-awful tanks, Sudden Defense should never be needed more than Battle Frenzy.

Having said that, I'd advise you to legacy both. I also think the AOE damage legacy is not a priority, given that most boss fights are single target fights, and that's where people have trouble with anyways.

You can't DPS when you're dead. Traited red, and using Red Haze, Fervour generation should hardly be a problem for a champ. The Sudden Defense bubble allows the healer more time to get to you or heal someone else first. It can blunt nasty AOE damage (that most bosses do now- regardless of the quality of the tank) enough for you to survive and hit Dire Need. I have found the DPS increase from Battle Frenzy just isn't large enough to justify pointing points into it for solo or group play. For PvMP, it maybe more useful, but the OP isn't a PVPer.

Disagree. Nothing like some good burst damage from ferocious followed by a remorseless auto crit.

Hi,
I've got a L75 DW champ, gearing up quite nicely at the moment, and have been playing around with my legacies, including Battle Frenzy and Sudden Defence.

My take is SD, while i rarely use it PvE, outside of LG, I have found myself doing a lot of group content without a main tank (my kin doesn't have an active one at the moment though we have 2 guards and 4 capt's en route), or with a couple of hunters who pull aggro all over the place.

I also seem to be doing more off-tanking where it certainly comes in handy, and finally, lots of red traits, red haze, and Controlled burn when necessary i rarely seem to need BF for fervour generation. The only exception is if i expect to be stunned on a regular basis and so expect to kick a skill of get stunned so lose effect and the fervour. In those circumstances BF (legacied) can be a great help to re-fill fervour immediately on stun exit for a quick horn or shing-shing or even a full strength sudden defence.

Originally Posted by hemenway90

Disagree. Nothing like some good burst damage from ferocious followed by a remorseless auto crit.

I agree, that is a great combo...unfortunately, since the auto crit is limited by the 2 min CD on Improved Seeking Blades and not on the CD of Battle Frenzy, the ability to spam that combo is unaffected by the BF cooldown

Originally Posted by Sthrax

I agree, that is a great combo...unfortunately, since the auto crit is limited by the 2 min CD on Improved Seeking Blades and not on the CD of Battle Frenzy, the ability to spam that combo is unaffected by the BF cooldown

Yet SD even with the legacy won't be up but once every 2min. In that same timeframe a legacied BF can fire off 6 times, even if you don't get the auto-crit that's an extra 6 RSs in a Brutal/Clobber rotation (with a FS replacing every now and then as well). If you are really in danger you've got both SD (on 3min CD) and TH (on 5min CD) without spending a legacy on something that won't help your DPS. If THOSE can't save you (8 bubbles every 15min or an average of 1 bubble every 1min 52s) then you were gonna die regardless and you need to look at your TacMit/PhysMit.

Now on a tanking weapon its a must have but on a DPS weapon after you've added the +Rend Armor Reduction and +Might legacies its the next best available minor for those stuck with 3Majors/3Minors.

Hi there!

You and a little grouping have changed my mind from SD to BF. Yes, champs already have 3 "oh &&&&" buttons, perhaps there is no need to lower SD cooldown (unless on a tanking wpn, of course).

And yes, I am dual wielding, use swords and have the elf +2% bonus dmg to 1H sword equipped. Fervour build is done with WA & BW while untraited SS is there for AoE prohibitted stuff. But really I don't want this thread to go into another 2H vs 1H or which race is best for a champ, there are plenty of those already. ;-)

Thank's a lot!
Óscar

Originally Posted by Gylve

Well, the OP was talking about a 1-hander. But yeah, for AoE sensitive fights I just use Swift instead of Blade-wall. Not too many single target fights where you don't want to AoE though, so generally I find the legacy extremely useful for almost every situation.

My bad; I forgot.

Originally Posted by Sthrax

You can't DPS when you're dead.

I honestly do not believe an extra 2k-minus Morale bubble increases your survivability all that much--at least in tier 2 Orthanc, which is all I care about. I used to run a "Morale &&&&&" build when I started raiding Orthanc. Since then I have shed right around 2k Morale, and I do not see detectable difference in my survivability.

Originally Posted by Sthrax

Traited red, and using Red Haze, Fervour generation should hardly be a problem for a champ.

Again, I guess different goals: Red Haze is not even available in boss fights.

Moreover, I think you missed my main point: Some skills require FULL Fervour.

Originally Posted by Sthrax

The Sudden Defense bubble allows the healer more time to get to you or heal someone else first. It can blunt nasty AOE damage (that most bosses do now- regardless of the quality of the tank) enough for you to survive and hit Dire Need.

Sudden Defense often doesn't even activate quickly enough...

Originally Posted by Sthrax

I have found the DPS increase from Battle Frenzy just isn't large enough to justify pointing points into it for solo or group play. For PvMP, it maybe more useful, but the OP isn't a PVPer.

I primarily PvE. And there are fights you need instant Fervour to front-load damage.