Thread: Ok peeps - analyse this - what did I do wrong?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhfxw...ature=youtu.be

Tree's video of him fighting wargs.

I think I did ok - I will give that Tree spends more time in game, is better skilled, and can play better than I can.

But please - peeps - any pointers in what I did in that video that was bad? Anything I did that was good?

I'm not QQing - just curious.

Tree himself is barred from commenting until my litigation has completed

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

Tree is a really complicated fight for me. :P

Three big things though:

When given the opportunity, you should try to get behind him. If you can't, then bleed kite him.

Second, is stance. I get thrashed by champs when I'm in shadow. Flayer is your best friend. :P Evade, resist, and armour value pots help a lot too. If you can't afford them all, get the armour value one at least. That, plus flayer, plus the armour value racial bumps you up to nearly 60% for both tactical and physical mitigations.

It looks like you don't worry much about debuffing. Fleas are your second best friend. Be sure to throw Rabid Bite on BEFORE fleas, though, or else they can will pot right out of it. It's an additional 25% to his attack duration, and nearly spammable.

Muscle tear is a big help, too. I try to save it for when cripple misses (It always misses at the worst time, too..), so he gets slowed and he attacks a lot slower. That, plus fleas is a nice little combo. Brutal Fangs is an additional 10% to his attack duration, but you have to have the cripple bleed or no cripple at all on him first. You're looking at +68% to his attack duration for 10s, and +45% for another chunk of the fight. I never realized how annoying that was to them until recently.

I'm no example to follow, though that gets me pretty far with him. I still haven't beat him. :/

Haven't been out there for a while, so I'm not sure what creeps have available to them now regarding skills, pots, etc...but as far as I can remember:

-A bleed from stealth will almost always be the better choice if you know your opponent will be potting out of your stun (either before or after the stun).

-This champion failed to both rend you and/or slow you, which you can use to your advantage. Additionally, since he was moving backwards, you have even more of a run speed advantage over him. Like Maniia said, Wargs, like Burglars, have a positional damage bonus (no doubt you already know) so staying behind your target will increase your DPS considerably.

-He popped Dire Need, which is a huge heal with a longish cooldown (or was, not sure what it is now. Saw ~4min on the tooltip, which might be legacy aided). He had no fancy footwork, was slow to pot your debuff, and didn't seem to use much strategy, which strengthens the belief that freeps take considerably less skill to be effective than creeps do.

His whole strategy seemed to involve spamming his self bubble while backpedaling and mashing DPS buttons. Nothing too impressive. Don't feel bad, Hithy, you did good I don't think there's really much you can do against a Freep with all his/her cooldowns***. But there is always room for improvement, so keep at it. Also, you have a much healthier view on things out there than some of these people that seem to only be out there to make themselves feel better about themself at other people's expense. So you've got that going for you!



***except Hunters. You should be eating them for breakfast.

I really hate to point this out but the only damage he was doing was from auto attacks.

Mania pretty much hit all the main points. Flayer is the way to go against champs/all heavy armour classes imo.

Also Brutal fangs and muscle tear replace each other they don't stack.

Bubbles and health pots...

Maniaa - I trait for speed - my primary job is as a scout - but no matter how fast I am - it always seems to be disabled as soon as I get in combat. No speed advantage there - and that is evident in the video.

I don't believe I used anything store bought - pots - anything at all in that fight.

Tree was only using auto-attacks. Nothing wrong with that - I need to keep my face in him to hit him, but he hits far larger than I do. I believe my greatest hit in that fight was for 700. I am having trouble pausing the video to see his biggest hit on me - but it's far larger than mine.

He was close to dead a couple of times - thats good enough for me.

Bubble and health pot all you like Tree

I tried - what more do you want?

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

he was auto attacking lol I should try it on my cappy once, but anyways shadow stance is only good against bad and ok champs to take them down quick without wasting time, against good champs flayer way to go. So try next time with flayer and tells how u do.

I dislike flayer wargs immensely

Milnor - this isn't a discussion about Flayer vs Shadow engaging targets.

This is simply a discussion of how I failed to kill Tree in Shadow.

Next time I'll try Flayer - but it's a very unnactractive stance if you are a scout

I'll try it anyway - fun needs giggles.

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

1. Tree will always be a tough fight because he can put out half again as much DPS as a Shadow warg while having access to nearly twice their effective morale.

2. You were in front of him for essentially the entire fight. You don't have to be directly behind them to get positional damage. The attacks will hit if you're off to the side a bit and behind. Might try cutting back and forth if they're just going to walk backwards. By ignoring it entirely though, you're missing out on a massive portion of your potential damage.

3. While he did pretty much pre-pot the first stun, you should have gotten a lot more out of it. Pounce->claws->eye gouge will give you a decent start. Other debuffs can usually wait, and stuns are a chance for guaranteed positional.

4. For the second stun, I would try to proc a stun with crippling bite/pounce before burning TS. You also don't want too many stuns, or DR will make them completely useless. It's often a good idea to save one for when they're low, so you might be able to drop them in the stun before they can pop a bubble/heal/LS/etc.

5. Might try to either make them burn their effect pot on rabid bite before applying fleas, or use it to cover immediately after applying fleas. Increased power cost isn't worth much against champs, or most anyone it seems, but +25% attack duration is.

6. There is no bloody maul in Shadow stance. Don't waste your attack from disappear with it. Another stun is almost always a better choice in this sort of situation.

7. It didn't seem like you used rend flesh much beyond just reapplying when the effect wore off. It's a higher damage skill with a fast animation. Makes for a good filler between claws and is usually up thanks to the high crit chance with shadow.

Side note - What a horrible choice of music.

Originally Posted by shilow7

Also Brutal fangs and muscle tear replace each other they don't stack.

Hrm. Good to know. :P

Originally Posted by shilow7

Mania

Originally Posted by Umbrarg

Maniaa

I swear, you people do this on purpose.. :P

Originally Posted by Umbrarg

Maniaa - I trait for speed - my primary job is as a scout - but no matter how fast I am - it always seems to be disabled as soon as I get in combat. No speed advantage there - and that is evident in the video.

What do you mean by speed?

Originally Posted by Umbrarg

Next time I'll try Flayer - but it's a very unnactractive stance if you are a scout

Run around unstanced. When you see a target, select a stance based on who they are.

Originally Posted by loriendil

Run around unstanced. When you see a target, select a stance based on who they are.

Personally, I feel like you sacrifice too much if you try to cater to both stances in one build.

Originally Posted by Arvaen

Personally, I feel like you sacrifice too much if you try to cater to both stances in one build.

It's iffy. I'm built for Flayer, but there are times when Shadow is just the the better route. I'm guessing it's the same the other way around. Situational. :P

Well, like they said, you were not maneuvering correctly. Also before you pounce him at the start, try to use shadow pack and/or howl of unnerving. Although if you use both, use howl of unnerving first, and move away from him when you do so, because he will most likely do an aoe attack. The decreased mitigations from shadow pack are around 3k I believe if he's in the puddle, so the time he's stunned and in it, you can deal a little/good deal more damage than normally, then when he's out of it, he still got the 10 second mitigation debuff. Besides that, I don't know really, I die to him all the time now, least we have the satisfaction that he needs his CDs to beat us...

Hithy, check your forum inbox for a PM from me about a key mapping setup that I think should try out.

While I have no watched the video nor read any comments... Here's what you did wrong...

1. You logged in.
2. I was not logged in to power heal you.
3. You assumed I would power heal you instead of letting you die and corpsejump you.
4. You denied me a corpsejump.

Well, that's the ABC's of it. Work on that and Treelios will die next time.

Awesome Sars!

Just make sure that you flap Treelios with the pickle next time

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

Treelios is a bully. He two-shotted my new lvl 75 champ in a duel...

Gut Out!

A few things come to mind here..

1. I need that cooldown bar plugin on my toons.
2. Yea, champ AoE arcs. Attack him from the &&&-end and don't be a keyboard turner. That was either lag or you holding your A/D keys when I saw ya spinnin' around there Hithy right in front of him...?

If you're going to solo, experiment with using the X key and then using the right-mouse button to re-align on your target for certain champs that like trying to run through you and then pressing the instant-180-turn button when they try to duel you and fail 2 out of 3 times, in case you keep getting those stupid 'you must be facing your target' errors. Against a champ it might make him misuse a skill here n there. Against a guard it'll severely limit his straight-line derps.

There are two things I can think of from watching that video.

1) You may want to consider changing corruptions. Try 2 crit prots, both health for power, and 2 masteries if you aren't already. It's hard for me to tell considering the difference in rank from my warg.

2) In 1v1s try to kite or disappear when a champ uses a bubble.

Originally Posted by Balderdash187

2) In 1v1s try to kite or disappear when a champ uses a bubble.

Disappear or sprint and disengage fully, don't kite. If you do the Champ can just stand in one spot and light you up with bow attacks. I know. I do this regularly when wargs think they can kite me. I also lead with my capped bleed so you're going to have a dot ticking on you as well.

IMHO the best thing a warg can do is harrass, NOT stand up and fight. Engage, make me blow just ONE of my big cooldowns, Sprint (use this first). Reengage at full life, make me blow more. Hips. Reengage at full life. THEN let me have it. And if you die, release IMMEDIATELY and map back as close to me as possible...and if your sprint is back up and available sprint right to me. IF you can engage that 4th time after dying, I should be a pretty soft target at that moment. Easy kill. Champ:1 Warg:1. This way to "tie things up" is not available to freeps and is a significant advantage for several creep classes.

Now, what the Champ should to do counter this type of play I'll keep to myself. But there are options.

---

As to specifics about that fight...
1> Don't fight where the Champ has friends to pull aggro from trolls off him. Fake fights have fake advantages. Real in the open field you have this MASSIVE advantage...it's called stealth. YOU a warg can CHOOSE where and when to fight. To remove that advantage and just hand a Champion exactly what they want (a toe to toe fight) is giving up a LARGE portion of your classes strength.

2> You should be able to do more damage even on shortened (potted) stuns. I'll defer to the warg experts on this, but I was surprised that you weren't able to burst a bit more in those occassions.

3> I didn't see you pot at all...did you? That's a pretty significant swing in morale.

Fight clubbing essentially gimps wargs beyond belief. The fact that you even feel competant to TRY fighting without your biggest tool in the warg tool box to me says wargs are bordering on OP. You are a stealth/surprise class. Not a heavy armored warrior. Don't fight like one. You'll lose.

Lately, here's my experiences from fighting champs:

I usually have to blow sprint to chase them down on horseback.

I'll pounce them from horseback and hit them hard, I get close to 3-3.5k off of them. Then comes the DPs dance, I usually get another 1k before the first bubble.

I usually continue to fight or disappear depending on my health at that point. If I use disappear - no more escape skills are left.

I'll wait out the bubble, health pot as needed.

Pounce again, hit hard again, by then I'm usually at half health with champ a little above quarter health.

Second bubble is popped, decision now is to kite or try to blow through bubble. Currently have no escape skills, if I kite, use LoS if available, if I fight on, hope for the best.

If successfull to be still living after the second bubble, I still have a good shot at a kill.....until they self heal or pop a third bubble. By then it's a DPS race, which it seems the champs DPS is just too much to overcome - getting hit with 1k-2k hits for every 700 I hit for isn't too cool. By then it's pretty much over. No sprint or disappear is available to get out alive. Fight until I die and hope there are enough bleeds to get a kill.

For me, it's usually after the second bubble and self heal that will decide the fight. It's not that I can't deal enough damage, it's the number of emergency skills they have that do me in. If I'm lucky to get a champ kill, it's usually due to some of those skills on CD.

Now mind, I do not have Flayer or all available skills at my rank (fistshake at comm grind). Unlike some out there, I refuse to spend money on skills, brands, and such in the store - my choice and I acknowledge that I may be gimping myself, so be it. All my fights are in shadow stance. I try to get Shadow Pack down to help, but only works half of the time with the stupid hit it 2 times bug. I use all of the skills I have at my disposal.

From MY perspective, it seems Champs have quite a few "Oh &&&&" or "I win" skills. Until I get Flayer, and experiment with it - Champs will continue to be a hard fight for ME.

I get what you are saying Luc, but if you get the first kill in your 1 and 1 scenario - you are long gone by the time I would release to rez and get back to the general location of the fight. Also, once sprint is blown to catch a freep on horseback and disappear is used offensively, there are no escape skills left - it's either fight to death or try to get away hoping to not get horn stunned and a sprinting champ aoe'ing your tail end off. Shadow warg have no bubbles, or large self heal to prop themselves up in a pinch when the you know what hits the fan.

Originally Posted by CRUSHUC

.
I get what you are saying Luc, but if you get the first kill in your 1 and 1 scenario - you are long gone by the time I would release to rez and get back to the general location of the fight. Also, once sprint is blown to catch a freep on horseback and disappear is used offensively, there are no escape skills left - it's either fight to death or try to get away hoping to not get horn stunned and a sprinting champ aoe'ing your tail end off. Shadow warg have no bubbles, or large self heal to prop themselves up in a pinch when the you know what hits the fan.

I think it's reasonable to suggest Shadow is not a good match for a Champ.

I think you underestimate the ability/reaction of solo players to &&&& after a kill. A creep who gets back CAN and often DOES take advantage of a weakened champ (me).

I agree Champs are very deep in skills that can turn the fight/prolong/outlast our opponents. No doubt. In my perfect world the current "fervour" bubbles would be what champs got if full blue line specced...in other words a red line champ's bubbles would be the MAXIMUM if traited for those skills, instead of the minimum. Bump our dps a bit as a tradeoff, maybe a bump to our bleed in yellow. But the removal of all this defensive garbage would be a WELCOME change. I didn't make a tank. I don't want to be a tank. If I did want to be a tank I'd roll a warden or guard. Blue line champs are broken. I've never claimed otherwise and I'm not likely to change that opinion anytime soon.

Nevertheless the fact that lone wargs can even IMAGINE being able to square off vs a champ in a "fightclub" situation is a sign that there has been a MASSIVE shift in power from days past. The type of fight shown in the video above should be 100% champ wins barring some massive difference in skill or gear/rank. Why? Because it's completely removing the biggest advantage a warg SHOULD have. Which is the ability to choose their fights.

Also let's remember one other thing. A warg that wants to get away, and NOT fight, has a pretty superior suite of skills to do that opposed to a Champ. Again, pointless in a fightclub, but a measurable bucket of power that comes into play in real open PvMP situations.

I honestly don't want to sound like a broken record, but this is EXACTLY why fightclubbing is bad for the game. If there was a world in which the wargs in this scenerio won 50% of the time the game would be HORRIBLY imbalanced in the open field. Wargs would be FAR FAR too OP.

What the warg did wrong in this case was fight a Champ toe to toe when he had friends pulling aggro off of him who knew the warg was about to attack and was ready for him. That error alone is huge, and cannot be undervalued.

I will admit that we do lose the element of surprise participating in a "fightclub," and also the ability to pick the location that we want to fight in, but I don't see why we should not be able to beat a champ in a 1v1. True, if the champ had all his CDs, he could never go down to a shadow warg, but some champs will get careless. For example, when I'm fighting you, I pounce and try to do as much dps as possible, also might do fleas ect to slow your attacks, and then you might pop a bubble, but like you said, you like to lower your health with mine, so once I think I have victory, you bubble and I'm pretty much dead, but if you just slightly miscalculate, you could also be dead, because once your at 2k health, I will tendon shred and dps that 2k down before your unstunned. Sure, not all the time it works, but if the champs are slightly careless, I don't know why shadow wargs would be OP to win in a "fightclub."

Yeah, my grammar sucks, but it's summer.

Originally Posted by GuardofMiddleEarth

....but if you just slightly miscalculate, you could also be dead, because once your at 2k health, I will tendon shred and dps that 2k down before your unstunned. ......

sounds like my fights

Originally Posted by GuardofMiddleEarth

I will admit that we do lose the element of surprise participating in a "fightclub," and also the ability to pick the location that we want to fight in, but I don't see why we should not be able to beat a champ in a 1v1. True, if the champ had all his CDs, he could never go down to a shadow warg, but some champs will get careless. For example, when I'm fighting you, I pounce and try to do as much dps as possible, also might do fleas ect to slow your attacks, and then you might pop a bubble, but like you said, you like to lower your health with mine, so once I think I have victory, you bubble and I'm pretty much dead, but if you just slightly miscalculate, you could also be dead, because once your at 2k health, I will tendon shred and dps that 2k down before your unstunned. Sure, not all the time it works, but if the champs are slightly careless, I don't know why shadow wargs would be OP to win in a "fightclub."

Yeah, my grammar sucks, but it's summer.

It's simple. If wargs could (note I'm talking about equally skilled and equally experienced and equally geared/ranked) beat a Champ in a stand up fight (which undoubtably is the STRENGTH of a Champ) then they would be far far far overpowered in Open PvMP where they could take advantage of stealth, surprise, superior escape skills, and maps.

Note: Stealth and surprise is a lot more than just getting the first hit. it's choosing a location and a time that is beneficial without exposing youself to danger while looking/waiting for that opportunity.

A solo champ is out there. We're in the open with NO CHANCE if we come upon a superior force. We don't get to choose anything. So yeah, when a foe steps up and says bring it, a champ should have a massive advantage. And we do. No doubt.

And yes, I NEED to walk that razor's line because wargs have superior escape skills. So if I'm going to get the win I need to keep myself vulnerable until I can get the kill so the warg doesn't just hips/sprint away.

Champs and wargs are different toons, playing a different game. To even compare the two, let alone balance them, in a straight up fight is just not fair. It's not fair to the Champ who doesn't have nearly the ability to pick and choose their fights, and it's not fair to the warg who is gimping themselves by not using their most iconic skill to its fullest.

Look, this is my opinion. I see creepside play as a different game, with a different price of admission, with different power curves, and with different objectives. Yes, different objectives. Creeps fight to get stronger. Freeps fight for their cause and glory. That's a very different motivation and implementation of play.

I honestly see the two sides as completely different gameplay experiences. No less different than SWTOR vs Diablo 3.

And to force them to be "equal" will just artificially create other inequities.

I'd rather the game be more balanced for the intended gameplay (open PvMP) than balanced for arranged fights.

Are there still a LOT of things the developers need to do to get there? Absolutely. But comparing power levels in an artifically created environment in a situation that CLEARLY favours the Champ...it's ridiculous.

I remember YEARS ago saying something that I'll repeat here. 99% of the "effort" of PvMP for a Champ is not the fight. It's FINDING the fight that we can win and survive.

I don't like the bubbles we have. I also don't like the fact that I don't believe I hit hard enough to make up for not having BPE and a relatively low morale pool. So I NEED those bubbles to remain competative.

But I DO know, if I can engage a foe and keep them in my hit box for long enough, I'm going to come out the victor. That's the challenge Champs face. If you remove that challenge. Then yeah, you're artificailly boosting the Champs power level.

Frankly it's just giving the champ free renown....and lots of it. Lots.

Originally Posted by Thane9

It's simple. If wargs could (note I'm talking about equally skilled and equally experienced and equally geared/ranked) beat a Champ in a stand up fight (which undoubtably is the STRENGTH of a Champ) then they would be far far far overpowered in Open PvMP where they could take advantage of stealth, surprise, superior escape skills, and maps.

I'm not saying that wargs SHOULD beat champs in a 1v1 fightclub if they are equally geared/experienced/skilled. I am saying that if a champion is vs a shadow warg, and I outsmart/out maneuver/out play that champion, I don't see how I'm OP beating that champ.

Originally Posted by Thane9

I don't like the bubbles we have. I also don't like the fact that I don't believe I hit hard enough to make up for not having BPE and a relatively low morale pool. So I NEED those bubbles to remain competative.

There are champions that CAN win without using heals/bubbles, because some champs hit like a truck, not saying that you do not hit hard, but perhaps that's something you could work on, challenge yourself and try being really good without bubbles/heals, because it is possible.

You hit Enter Middle Earth

Originally Posted by GuardofMiddleEarth

I'm not saying that wargs SHOULD beat champs in a 1v1 fightclub if they are equally geared/experienced/skilled. I am saying that if a champion is vs a shadow warg, and I outsmart/out maneuver/out play that champion, I don't see how I'm OP beating that champ. .

And all I'm saying is the warg is NOT outsmarting/our maneuvering/out playing if they ignore their greatest strengths and expect to be competative in a fight club situation. Nor can they outsmart, our maneuver, out play in that situation.

Hey, remove stealth from the warg and we can talk about balancing tighter in toe to toe fighting. But until then to ignore that strength of wargs and expect to remain competative without it. Well, that's just asking for the game to be even more broken than it already is. Because wargs who DID use stealth in that world would be insanely powerful and instead of 60% wargs, we'd see a creepside with 90+% wargs.

Originally Posted by GuardofMiddleEarth

There are champions that CAN win without using heals/bubbles, because some champs hit like a truck, not saying that you do not hit hard, but perhaps that's something you could work on, challenge yourself and try being really good without bubbles/heals, because it is possible.

I can win without using heals bubbles. Sure. But I also know that I'm at a disadvantage to a lot of matchups given the fact that I play (and spec) as a DPS class and not as a tank.

The funny thing is you cite "hitting like a truck" but the Champs you're describing aren't full red line champs. The Champs that creeps fear are tank builds and stacking morale and defenses FAR more than I do.

I just happen to dual wield which is not common practice so you won't see 1-2 big hits you'll see 3-4 smaller hits. But I assure you I'm dealing as much damage or more than any champ out there. The trick is surviving long enough to apply that damage vs a creep with nearly twice the morale and BPE working in their favor.

Furthermore I don't believe in hot-swapping weapons with key macros to yield the benefit of dual wield speed + 2H max hits. I don't want this post to degrade into an argument about that. Suffice it to say I don't play that way.

So yeah, you can say I'm gimping myself if you want. I prefer to think of it as not abusing the system in a way that makes me feel yucky while also playing in a manner that I enjoy the flow and sequencing of attacks.

I will note one thing about last night: even the SMALLEST skill lag can be unbearable with the way I play. I was getting a lot of sub-1 second skill lag last night and it was making me nuts and I had to log. It was really throwing off my timing. I was pinging under 40 and had zero packet loss. No other issues in other applications or games the rest of the night once I was off LotRO...but it was terrible in game last night for me.

Luc,

What "superior" escape skills do wargs have after they blow sprint to catch a freep on horseback, and use disappear offensively? Other than trying to run away with stuns and slows, I don't see any other skills available to escape.

Honest question.

99% of the effort for a champ (or anyone solo) might be finding *A FIGHT* -- but a fight that you can win and survive? Champs CAN do that in more encounters than they cannot...

Please don't take this badly, but the main thing that you did wrong here was lose to a person who only walked backward and auto-attacked.

With that out of the way, let me say there are very few places where I can be rated even a mediocre warg...very few. A few main things:

Flayer would have won that for you. The bubble and flayer bleeds would have made the difference.

Establishing some type of circle strafe would also have won that for you. A wider circumference than normal would have left you behind him most of the time providing positional outgoing damage and avoiding incoming damage. You just had to get back there and stay there.

Even a counter strafe circle would have worked since the counter movement would probably get you down to every other auto attack due to attack duration on auto attack, you'd also get positional bonuses on all skills landing when you weren't in front of him.

But really you could have done anything but stand in front and get slowly chopped to death. Bleed him up and then go stand 15 meters away and re-stealth, repeat...dunno if he would have started moving forward or not, but it most definitely could not have gotten worse.

At the end of the fight you pulled off some very well executed 180 turns, you just did them too soon and flipped in front of him. Forward, skill, run through, flip, skill, right? Remember he's moving backward and isn't stationary, so the timing is a half second/1 second different.

Originally Posted by CRUSHUC

Luc,

What "superior" escape skills do wargs have after they blow sprint to catch a freep on horseback, and use disappear offensively? Other than trying to run away with stuns and slows, I don't see any other skills available to escape.

Honest question.

If you're chasing down a freep on horseback, you're not escaping are you? That indicates that you've selected that target for combat and you believe you can win.
If you're using hips offensively, once again you're not escaping. You have decided that you have a chance at winning by using your escape skill offensively.

Escape skills are for getting away from forces you CANNOT beat. Not for getting out of a losing fight. That's why DR is so lame. Because it's not for getting away from a bigger force avoiding engaging, it's almost always used to escape a losing fight that was already engaged.

My point is simple. Wargs have a large advantage in terms of selecting their targets. Use it. If you don't then I just don't understand how you can complain about getting beat. Why would you EVER chase down or engage in a fight you know you can't win?

Wargs that use this skill are, and have been, very competative. Wargs that do not, are just fresh meat for fightclubbing freeps who want easy renown by toying with their opponents.

But it's in the wargs hands to decide which they are. Warginator knew this WAY back when wargs were UNDISPUTABLY FAR FAR FAR FAR less powerful compared to freeps than they are now. And he killed me plenty using that knowledge and skill to his advantage. He didn't stand in an open field surrounded by other players waiting for me to jump up and down like a fool to indicate I was "ready" to fight (or pretend to fight as some of these people do). He hit me when I was weak. He waited. He was patient. And we had some of the best fights I've had in the game.

It's the biggest strength they have. And the biggest problem. Remove it and we can talk. But my guess is some wargs want to be able to fight like a champ toe to toe AND stealth around and select targets at will. That would be insanely imbalanced.

Originally Posted by Baslin

99% of the effort for a champ (or anyone solo) might be finding *A FIGHT* -- but a fight that you can win and survive? Champs CAN do that in more encounters than they cannot...

I'd offer my 5+ years of roaming solo as proof to the contrary.

You're assuming everything the champ encounters is solo, in a neutral location (aka no npcs) and doesn't call out for help that is just a map-in-sprint away. It's not. In fact not even close.

I've written too much so this is it for me.

The question was what did he do wrong?

My answer is: Visibly agree to fight a well spec'd well played well geared powerful solo class in a 1:1 allowing preperation of the impending fight without seeking any advantage while other players heightened his advantage by clearing npcs and insuring no friendly assistance.

In the REAL open PvMP world a Champ has to prepare and act VERY differently. In the REAL open PvMP world a warg has numerous options they can do from stealth upon sighting a Champ that can and will result in the Champs death. Options that the Champ does not have.

Use your strengths. Don't play into your opponents. Simple. But if creepside wants to keep handing out free renown, heck...I doubt some of those players will EVER complain.

Thanks for the input everyone - and I mean everyone!

I'll try different tictacs and play a bit tonight / tomorrow if I get a chance. Only prob is I am on a very high latency backup connection at the moment until Saturday at the earliest. Long story.

Also - the weather here is absolutely gorgeous and I've got brand new tyres that need scuffed in properly

Thats why I'm not online much at the moment.

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

^ What Luc said.

Originally Posted by Hyarmaion

^ What Luc said.

If you don't start showing your face in game, I really have no viable threat but I'm sure something....

Originally Posted by Thane9

I've written too much so this is it for me.

The question was what did he do wrong?

My answer is: Visibly agree to fight a well spec'd well played well geared powerful solo class in a 1:1 allowing preperation of the impending fight without seeking any advantage while other players heightened his advantage by clearing npcs and insuring no friendly assistance.

In the REAL open PvMP world a Champ has to prepare and act VERY differently. In the REAL open PvMP world a warg has numerous options they can do from stealth upon sighting a Champ that can and will result in the Champs death. Options that the Champ does not have.

Use your strengths. Don't play into your opponents. Simple. But if creepside wants to keep handing out free renown, heck...I doubt some of those players will EVER complain.

You do realise he was just auto attacking for the first fight right?

Originally Posted by Thane9

If you're chasing down a freep on horseback, you're not escaping are you?

If I'm sprinting down a freep on horseback, it's the only way to initiate a fight, to get a 1v1. Occasionally, I do find freeps on foot - then I do have an escape, but 8 out of 10 times I have to blow it to initiate the fight. Spending my game time roaming the map looking for "static" kill opportunities isn't my idea of fun - they are few and far between.

Originally Posted by Thane9

Why would you EVER chase down or engage in a fight you know you can't win?

Easy - If you don't try, you'll never win. If you don't try, you'll never get better. Sitting around waiting for an easy gank isn't much fun - and I don't plan to sit around doing nothing for hours just for a handfull of kills. Besides, how do you think some of the better players learned to be good? it sure wasn't from ganking easy kills. If it's easy freep renown, so be it - at least you can feel good about trying. You'll never know if you'll get lucky and the freep makes a mistake.

Originally Posted by Thane9

......I just don't understand how you can complain about getting beat.

Who's complaining? I only pointed out how fights I have with champs end up, and how they win. Nothing more, nothing less. BTW, I lose more 1v1's than I win, but each fight I lose I learn from it and apply what I learned to the next. Continually ganking low rankers or easy targets only gives infamy/comms - but do you ever really learn anything from it? If PvMP was only about infamy/comms, then why bother soloing, I could gain more and rank faster being in the zerg.

Luc, you don't seem to understand how wargs think when looking for and engaging a target.... at all.