I just wanted to know the justification of all the zerging going on over the last few months. This is mainly pertaining to freepside, even though I know some creeps do it.
Why do you need a 24-man to take one keep, sometimes the only keep that isn't blue?
Why do you need a raid/group of freeps to kill maybe 6-7 creeps?
Why is anyone who disagrees with or comments about the zerging immediately docked as a QQer and someone who doesn't like to die? Would you like to be repeatedly farmed/zerged for renown/infamy by a group so large, and composed of the most ezmode and op classes out there?
This may not answer your question (it's rhetorical right?) but take a glance at this post from Cariance which was sort of a response to a post i made that was much like yours Sele.
I miss Cariance out there. He is right. And good on you, Couillon for remembering the post and the info. I have way more fun running around with my spider partnered up with a Warg and a Reaver/BA than I do in a raid. But that is my personal opinion. The sense of fear/awareness that you need when solo or in a small group is addicting.
In addition to Cariance's Post, there is a domino effect that happens in the Moors. People run solo until they confront a group that they can't beat. Then they either log or group up themselves. That group grows until it can wipe the opposition consistently. Then the opposing group grows to compensate. And back and forth we go. Anyone caught in the middle is just fodder for whatever reason.
Keeps are generally taken when someone realizes that the 100 renown/infamy is going to be more than they are getting from actual PVP. If they were to give the 100 renown/infamy to anyone in the group regardless of where they are on the map it might help. Or even give it to everyone in the Moors map that is outside of Grams/GV (You might have to include that the person cannot have the "AFK" tag on them)|. I understand that 600 renown and Commendations is hard to leave on the table daily. So the whole raid is brought so everyone can soak in the points for the keep flip.
Also, it is frequently the case that a group or raid leaves a solo player alone only to see that player later, in the opposing raid, wiping them. This leads raid leaders that have been burned by this repeatedly to make everything Kill On Sight.
I just wanted to know the justification of all the zerging going on over the last few months. This is mainly pertaining to freepside, even though I know some creeps do it.
Why do you need a 24-man to take one keep, sometimes the only keep that isn't blue?
Why do you need a raid/group of freeps to kill maybe 6-7 creeps?
Why is anyone who disagrees with or comments about the zerging immediately docked as a QQer and someone who doesn't like to die? Would you like to be repeatedly farmed/zerged for renown/infamy by a group so large, and composed of the most ezmode and op classes out there?
Certain creeps and freeps (but mostly creeps who freep these days) may feel slighted that they are not as significant as they thought they once were. So they make raids full of ezmode classes to feel good again. They even come on their defilers/reavers/whatever and check how many creeps are online and if certain creeps are online. Something Adino is well known for.
We all know creepside is where the only real challenge is and these people are just hurting themselves by siding with the real monster of the moors.
In addition to Cariance's Post, there is a domino effect that happens in the Moors. People run solo until they confront a group that they can't beat. Then they either log or group up themselves. That group grows until it can wipe the opposition consistently.
I'd like to mention that the only one that does this freepside is Adino. There are a few freeps that duo/trio consistently I think and I've been part of a small groups lately that at max have 8 people but usually 5-6. Our numbers don't grow when we hit a force more powerful than ours past the random friend that comes online and wants to join us. We just go back for more punishment but try to be smarter about it.
Second Marshal Carli
I'm Not Gold Taggin, I'm Carli Swaggin
According to Cariance there is no incentive to not raid. Neither side will make an effort to decrease group size. So it comes down to who is more powerful. When I see healing RKs hop all around my character while self-healing, I know they are laughing at me because there is no chance for me to beat them without a serious concentrated effort of focused-dps. What can I say? Both sides will always see themselves at a disadvantage and call in more troops. And as you say, there is no diminishing returns on points for larger groups, so the numbers escalate until no one can even tell what is going on.
If I were a subscriber to Adam Smith, I would say let the share of points continue to decrease for larger group sizes, so that a raid receives 0-1 point for every kill they get. Their desire to accrue points would force them to either solo or small group because everyone acts in their own self-interest. Of course, this screws up all incentive to heal, but I consider that to be a bonus because healing has truly ruined the moors. On both sides the healing Cold War is so stupid. Just smash into your opponent and fight until you die. Maybe I'm biased because I'm DPS and not an RK, Mini, Captain, Warden, or Glory Champ but the healing and the bubbling and the "HA I GOT YOU" use of cooldowns to deny kills makes for just awful pvp.
But this is all pie in the sky thinking. We're going to have to get serious about raiding creepside just to defeat the small heal stacked groups.
I'd like to mention that the only one that does this freepside is Adino. There are a few freeps that duo/trio consistently I think and I've been part of a small groups lately that at max have 8 people but usually 5-6. Our numbers don't grow when we hit a force more powerful than ours past the random friend that comes online and wants to join us. We just go back for more punishment but try to be smarter about it.
Btw, props to you and your groupies for having the courage and skills. I've seen creeps post something like "Carli is at TA - I'm outta here" on OOC. That is a praise in itself.
Btw, props to you and your groupies for having the courage and skills. I've seen creeps post something like "Carli is at TA - I'm outta here" on OOC. That is a praise in itself.
I like big fights - I like to lead/help others. Sometimes I solo and small group but I always expect to get overrun and I don't complain about it.
I don't log to creepside nor send anyone to do it at all period. I wish players had to choose each day which side they could play on with no flipping inter-day (moors only obviously) and I think having comms shared between sides was a horrible mistake. People playing both sides on the same server has always been the source of most problems in the moors.
I don't take keeps for the renown/comms. I wish there was no renown for pve in the moors like it used to be. If you were paying attention pre-ROI (when there was no renown/comms for keep taking), I played the exact same way I play now. I push keeps to start fights, the bigger the better, it usually works. When I call for more to the moors in glff, I call for whichever side is losing fights, usually creeps - we all know creeps watch glff or have friends watching it for them, to believe otherwise is naive.
There was no zerg at TR this morning, there were about 10-12 on each side and creeps got most of the kills including fully wiping us multiple times, we tried to get them to fight outside but they wouldn't so we pushed in to get some sort of fight going. Long ago pre ROI, most of the glory (renown/infamy) points on this server on a daily basis went to freeps and there was constant complaining by creeps. Now it is the reverse and what do we have? same thing: constant complaining by creeps.
The PvMP game is about big epic fights, just like the books and movies. Most of you won't admit that for some reason. You insist on trying to turn the game into something it is not (1v1 or small group world) and try to shame anyone who plays it the right way. That thread you guys referenced was silly when it was written and is just as silly now ... of course Turbine didn't do anything to discourage Raiding in the moors, they WANT raiding in the moors, they WANT more players in the moors and they WANT the game to be epic. They obviously do not want 1v1 or small group to be the focus or there would be mechanics to support that.
The PvMP game is about big epic fights, just like the books and movies. Most of you won't admit that for some reason. You insist on trying to turn the game into something it is not (1v1 or small group world) and try to shame anyone who plays it the right way. That thread you guys referenced was silly when it was written and is just as silly now ... of course Turbine didn't do anything to discourage Raiding in the moors, they WANT raiding in the moors, they WANT more players in the moors and they WANT the game to be epic. They obviously do not want 1v1 or small group to be the focus or there would be mechanics to support that.
It's pretty simple really.
WE pay to play this game -- and therefore have every right to play however we want, just like you do.
So if we want it to be "1v1 or small group world" then it sure as hell will be.
You don't really think most creeps play this game to get farmed in OC by you and your followers, do you? If that's included in the "big epic fights" you're referring to, then no, that's not what this game is about.
Turbine wants people to play the game and enjoy playing it. They don't care how you do that, as long as you're not breaking the rules. If they "did not want 1v1 or small grouping" to exist, then it wouldn't be an option at all. You would literally be forced to group the moment you logged into the moors.
The problem I have with you is that this is your mentality. That you honestly believe there is a certain "right" way to play. No. The only right way to play is the way I - or you - enjoy playing.
Like I said, many people pay to play in the moors. Do you really think we're going to follow some other player's rules just because he thinks there is a certain way you should play -- a certain way Turbine specifically wants?
I don't log to creepside nor send anyone to do it at all period.
No but you bragged about using the /tell trick to find out if you had opposition creepside. Don't get me wrong, we use it to see when you log into DG to take your precious relics, but to say you don't keep tabs on the creeps you are afraid of is a bald faced lie.
Why is anyone who disagrees with or comments about the zerging immediately docked as a QQer and someone who doesn't like to die? Would you like to be repeatedly farmed/zerged for renown/infamy by a group so large, and composed of the most ezmode and op classes out there?
Agreed. But goes for both sides.
Originally Posted by knockturnal98
Also, it is frequently the case that a group or raid leaves a solo player alone only to see that player later, in the opposing raid, wiping them. This leads raid leaders that have been burned by this repeatedly to make everything Kill On Sight.
This.
I often leave creeps alone while questing, only to have them get a group and try to kill me with numbers. Thank you very much.
I often leave creeps alone while questing, only to have them get a group and try to kill me with numbers. Thank you very much.
Well that's because it takes a raid to kill a warden these days. No offense, but in the old days you wouldn't have been able to sit on your steed and smile knowing you are safe because you could easily limp back to NPCs. You would have been blown away in 10s flat. Wardens don't PvP these days, they just play the spoiler role of "trololololololol". But thanks for letting us quest in peace, your grace.
What's simple is that all of this is nothing more than your opinion.
FACT of the matter is, if they didn't want 1v1 or small groups, they would FORCE you to raid the moment you entered. No one would be able to solo any of the moors quests or 1v1 any other class out there. NPCs and Tyrants would all require a raid to take down. It would be an instance that doesn't begin until both sides have the numbers queued up. Fact of the matter is the Moors is open for all kinds of play. Not just yours. Not just theirs. They made the Moors solo friendly, group friendly AND raid friendly. You whine about others trying to force their playstyle and opinions on you, STOP DOING IT TO OTHERS.
You want to look to the books/movies and use that as an excuse to raid? Look again and pay attention this time. In the books/movies it was quite often a handful of free people taking on the horde. It was quite often 1 of the free people versus many. As said in another thread, Boromir took down many alone before being slain. Often you had epic battles between two characters on opposing sides. Hell, the ENTIRE point of the stories was about the Free Peoples facing overwhelming evil and still overcoming. Once again, illustrating it is not 100% all about epic raid fights. It is all about multiple kinds of fights.
Freeps and creeps both complain CONSTANTLY. You do it plenty. Stop acting like the martyr and pretending you and the rest of the freeps are so above it all. Stop pretending freeps don't spy creepside and flip, they do it CONSTANTLY. The amount of freeps who flip to the winning side, flip to creepside to complain and spy is ridiculous. You even have flippers in your raids who will go back and forth at the drop of a hat to the winning side. Stop placing the blame on creepside for bad behaviour when you and other freeps are just as, if not more gulty. Stop pigeonholing the entirety of a side, not everyone is the same. And if you were smart, you would stop alienating players on your side just because they have creeps or recently, because they like Aza. It's completely absurd to beg for more freeps and then ignore them when they show up. Regardless of how you treat and alienate others, when I'm freepside, I'm there to support my fellow freeps. That's kind of the point. Would do you well to figure that out as it benefits everyone and winning is everything, right?
The source of problems are not due to people playing both sides, in fact quite the opposite since it allows more for mutual respect among players and respecting the opposition, something which you have absolutely no concept of. The real problem is people who have bad attitdes and are all around jerks.
The only actual truth or fact about anything in your post is that it was entirely your opinion. You're entitled to your opinion and so is everyone else. No matter how hard you try, it won't make your opinions fact.
There are some creeps on this server that I like that I always leave alone or 1v1. If interrupted and creep gets zerged I will go to creep side and apologize even. When passing by a AFK creep I slap him and that's it. What do I get? Killed.
The unfortunate truth is that some of the monster players are not only playing creeps, they also have the creep character and attitude. The stuff you can see in OOC there is just... colorful.
I've never seen so much hate, envy and disrespect in a game. And I'm sorry it is like this actualy.
Originally Posted by Summberbell
The source of problems are not due to people playing both sides, in fact quite the opposite since it allows more for mutual respect among players and respecting the opposition. The real problem is people who have bad attitdes and are all around jerks.
I will say that yes this game does want people to raid in the moors. It also wants you to play in any other fashion you want. 1v1s, solo hunting, gold tagging Adino raids, small grouping. The thing that Adino and most of the rest of the server doesn't see is that the best RvR or GvG fights take place in the open field. Adino you fail so bad at making open field fights and you've influenced this server for so long that its like open field fighting is a complete myth to us. So many times I've been in your raids we try to fight creeps in their keeps and we end up wiping and you get us back to that keep or another keep so fast the creeps dont even have time to move out to the open field. So many better fights could have been had if you just had patience and didn't worry so much about keeps. And every single time you did this you complain how the creeps are turtling. If i was a creep I'd stay in the keep too cuz everyone knows you'll come right back and feed the creeps more. They aren't turtling, they are just using your ways to their advantage.
So Adino you can lead raids in the moors, you see it as your prerogative and you have the right. But at least learn how to start fights outside of keeps. Threatening to take a keep isn't the only way to start a fight. Also a blue map may make you feel good inside and help you sleep at night but really hurts true pvp.
Last edited by viper0889; Jun 23 2012 at 06:25 PM.
Second Marshal Carli
I'm Not Gold Taggin, I'm Carli Swaggin
For the "everyone can play how they want to and have fun" crowd. Some people enjoy zerging solo players and small groups. By your admission they have the right to do so.
if you can kill our be killed with a smile on your face, you mastered the moors
Well, since I am not allowed to troll anymore, I will be as polite as I can. Arred....creepside OOC is colorful, aye. But just that. It is entertainment. 95% of those &&&& talking smackAho creeps are actually quite polite freepside. Most of my froends are family people, kids, jobs....we play creepside to be just that. A creep. So when you see us talking smack, let it be at that.
You outta sit in on a good night. You'd hear some things that would make your toes curl. But its just that, talk. I see Carli corpsejumping me at all cost, and I laugh. I corpse jump Carli in the middle of his fail raid, and get nuked, but I do it, laughing. Try it sometime. Its soothes the soul.
I always say, every morning in the moors for over a year, that a good early morning corpsejump and smack talk, with my coffee, is like summer in a bowl. We creep to be creeps. We also creep cause being the underdog is what we like. Most of us have top tier freeps (moors or not), end game raid gear, and were bored. So we come here.
I talk a big game, and smack talk any and all. But I am not like that in real life man. Im a single dad, two little girls, own my own business, have a mortgage, a mini van. But creepside is where I can let my inner demons fly free......not to mention the sloppy cyberz in Orc Camp, eh Doc?
Btw, props to you and your groupies for having the courage and skills. I've seen creeps post something like "Carli is at TA - I'm outta here" on OOC. That is a praise in itself.
If you're quoting me you should at least state your source. In my defense, Carli is rude and doesn't run away like all the other Freeps to guarantee me an easy kill. Silly Carli
Now that you have met, please take no tips from him. Or Creeps won't be able to completely ignore Wardens. And my spider will have to reapply Catch Prey, as opposed to letting it sit on the indestructible non-DPS class.
The PvMP game is about big epic fights, just like the books and movies. Most of you won't admit that for some reason. You insist on trying to turn the game into something it is not (1v1 or small group world) and try to shame anyone who plays it the right way. That thread you guys referenced was silly when it was written and is just as silly now ... of course Turbine didn't do anything to discourage Raiding in the moors, they WANT raiding in the moors, they WANT more players in the moors and they WANT the game to be epic. They obviously do not want 1v1 or small group to be the focus or there would be mechanics to support that.
It's pretty simple really.
I'm tired but I thought this would be worth posting on.
To paraphrase Sheldon Cooper "guise there having fun the wrong way!!"
I wish players had to choose each day which side they could play on with no flipping inter-day (moors only obviously)
and I think having comms shared between sides was a horrible mistake.
I wish there was no renown for pve in the moors like it used to be.
No but you bragged about using the /tell trick to find out if you had opposition creepside. Don't get me wrong, we use it to see when you log into DG to take your precious relics, but to say you don't keep tabs on the creeps you are afraid of is a bald faced lie.
I often pounce solo wardens only to have them heal and then run into EC *cough*
Thank you very much
If this healing and runing into EC or any other camp we own is what I have done... I have and I probably will in the future too. Why? Because I have no desire of fighting a warg that will just hips and sprint when close to dying, eventualy come back while not fully healed or call me out and come with numbers.
Same as long fights with self healing creeps. No desire fighting them while they only heal and wait for their buddies to arrive. If you wanna play it that way everyone should have some help, be it keep NPCs or someting else.
Originally Posted by ThunderbowStormshard
Well, since I am not allowed to troll anymore, I will be as polite as I can. Arred....creepside OOC is colorful, aye. But just that. It is entertainment. 95% of those &&&& talking smackAho creeps are actually quite polite freepside. Most of my froends are family people, kids, jobs....we play creepside to be just that. A creep. So when you see us talking smack, let it be at that.
You outta sit in on a good night. You'd hear some things that would make your toes curl. But its just that, talk. I see Carli corpsejumping me at all cost, and I laugh. I corpse jump Carli in the middle of his fail raid, and get nuked, but I do it, laughing. Try it sometime. Its soothes the soul.
I always say, every morning in the moors for over a year, that a good early morning corpsejump and smack talk, with my coffee, is like summer in a bowl. We creep to be creeps. We also creep cause being the underdog is what we like. Most of us have top tier freeps (moors or not), end game raid gear, and were bored. So we come here.
I talk a big game, and smack talk any and all. But I am not like that in real life man. Im a single dad, two little girls, own my own business, have a mortgage, a mini van. But creepside is where I can let my inner demons fly free......not to mention the sloppy cyberz in Orc Camp, eh Doc?
I realy respect and thank you for this kind of answer. But still... People are letting it go freepside too, roleplaying and what not. There is no need for comments like (I'm paraphrasing) "let's get a warg pack and zerg around", "let's get a group and kill squishies" or any kind of that hate speech which sometimes strikes me as real hate.
Or even walking around moors with warg pack stealthed around you giving solo freeps some false hope only to be surprised by several wargs pouncing out of stealth.
Arred, you are a determination warden. It would take no less than a defiler with flies, and 2 others to kill you because you repeatedly use HoTs 1v1, which is why a creep would typically A. Hips or run when they see that they'd have to burn through atleast 30k~ morale just to beat you or B.Come at you grouped.
Not to mention, if you were well-versed in actually Dpsing in recklessness and not just EoBing/resolutioning/healing in assailment/determination, maybe a creep wouldn't be able to escape from Lugs hill to OC without using any escape cds.
This may not answer your question (it's rhetorical right?) but take a glance at this post from Cariance which was sort of a response to a post i made that was much like yours Sele.
Well, it really wasn't meant as a rhetorical question, but thanks for the link to the other post!
Originally Posted by Ohstaruh
Lol
Originally Posted by dontneed7
There was no zerg at TR this morning, there were about 10-12 on each side and creeps got most of the kills including fully wiping us multiple times, we tried to get them to fight outside but they wouldn't so we pushed in to get some sort of fight going. Long ago pre ROI, most of the glory (renown/infamy) points on this server on a daily basis went to freeps and there was constant complaining by creeps. Now it is the reverse and what do we have? same thing: constant complaining by creeps.
The PvMP game is about big epic fights, just like the books and movies. Most of you won't admit that for some reason. You insist on trying to turn the game into something it is not (1v1 or small group world) and try to shame anyone who plays it the right way. That thread you guys referenced was silly when it was written and is just as silly now ... of course Turbine didn't do anything to discourage Raiding in the moors, they WANT raiding in the moors, they WANT more players in the moors and they WANT the game to be epic. They obviously do not want 1v1 or small group to be the focus or there would be mechanics to support that.
It's pretty simple really.
I don't know what you saw today, but that was a zerg at TR yesterday morning. At first yes, the sides were about even, and you guys wiped at least 2-3 times. But I like how you forget to add that you all showed up again, and this time with an even larger force of freeps.... and as usual with a lot of the op classes. I also don't understand why you would want to zerg and most likely flip the only rez we had left on the map.
As Bonnie already pointed out, the books and movies centered around the forces of the Free Peoples being greatly outnumbered and yet still overcoming the forces of darkness.
OC fights, Quest Location Camps, and rez campings are not epic fights, regardless of what anyone says.
Originally Posted by Gandalphor
I often leave creeps alone while questing, only to have them get a group and try to kill me with numbers. Thank you very much.
Lol that is how many creeps it takes to kill a warden nowadays. Why should I jump solo wardens and empty my power bar trying to kill him, and end up dying without even making much of a dent in his health bar?
I hate how anyone who stands againts or makes comments against the zerging is docked as a QQer. It has happened to me many times over....yet when creeps (Intolerance) actually make a stand and wipe some freeps from time to time, they do the very same thing....should anyone like to be crushed over and over again by an overpowering force? Lol with all of the op classes out now, it seems more and more that creeps don't die to skillfull freeps, but spam healing, insane criting ones that can kill us with the push/click of a few buttons.
The only time when I run almost a full set of shield traits and Determination is when I am soloing an OP tyrant or just want plain questing with no fighting creeps. Them jumping me when I do that is their fault. And I keep Determination on when on a move for bonus bpe and regen in case of zergs and similar.
In a 1v1 I will most likely be in Recklesness and in a raid in Assailment.
And you least of all can complain what stance I am in and being close to immortal in Determination with all the stars you got in your sig. Once you got below 2000 you went to your warg.
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