I don't do Ettens and don't really care about Ettens either. Ettens is a small part of this game. I'm not part of it. I care more about raiding, grouping, etc. Minstrels do need more dps, better dps skills, too... especially if you compare to the RK. Minstrels also need better and more dps legacies for weapon and book. That's the topic of this thread, NOT Ettens. IF PvMP were to vanish one day, I would not shed a tear over it nor would I miss it.
If you think Minstrels need more dps, better dps skills, etc in any apsect of the game, then you are VERY poorly geared and/or, with all due respect, an extremely unskilled player.
Minstrels should never have as much DPS as a Runekeeper. You can't compare them even though both classes can heal and DPS. Cause RKs can't heal while DPSing and Minstrels can heal themselves with no problem while DPSing. If Minstrels DPS is increased, while keeping their ability to heal themselves, they will be too much OP.
Btw, few days ago I got my minstrel to lv 75, got some basic gear and went to Acid wing in Orthanc T1 with some kinnies. We were 9 people, including healing minstrel and a captain, so I decided to trait DPS and have some fun, as we didn't need more heals. I didn't even need heals from the healer and captain, I healed myself. It went pretty fast, considering that we were 9, including 1 dps minstrel. And I did a 7.8k hit with Coda of Fury on the boss. There are very few classes who can do such big hit. Imagine how big hits I can do if I get top gear.
So no, minstrels' DPS is fine, doesn't need increase.
A Minstrel cannot take on 25 mobs in Forges but then again Forges is really not hard tbh. I seriously doubt that a rank 1 creep is stronger than a landscape mob. If it is, that's ridiculous and it should not be that way. Landscape mobs are not so tough anyway.
Well, YOU might not be able to take on all 25 mobs in Forges of Isengard but someone upthread said this is how HE does it. Also, the morale of a rank 0 Creep is higher than a landscape mob. They also have more power and, even at rank 0, more skills. You can doubt it all you want but it is the truth. The reason it is that way is so that Rank 0 Creeps can at least try to do somethiing to Freeps, unlike landscape mobs which get mowed over.
As others have said, Mini dps is fine (even OP) as is. So are their legacies if they want to dps. What is your tactical mastery at?
If you think Minstrels need more dps, better dps skills, etc in any apsect of the game, then you are VERY poorly geared and/or, with all due respect, an extremely unskilled player.
One day I will wake up and find people like you who can share opinions without resorting to personal attacks. I look forward to that day. I guess at this point we shall have to agree to disagree since I really do not feel like arguing or debating the topic further with strangers who prefer to use personal attacks as a means to get their point across. Have a nice day.
One day I will wake up and find people like you who can share opinions without resorting to personal attacks. I look forward to that day. I guess at this point we shall have to agree to disagree since I really do not feel like arguing or debating the topic further with strangers who prefer to use personal attacks as a means to get their point across. Have a nice day.
Its not a personal attack... really. Its just baffling to me how anyone who plays this class can say that it needs more dps and dps skills w/o thinking that said ppl are playing the class in an extremely flawed way.
I don't do Ettens and don't really care about Ettens either. Ettens is a small part of this game. I'm not part of it. I care more about raiding, grouping, etc. Minstrels do need more dps, better dps skills, too... especially if you compare to the RK. Minstrels also need better and more dps legacies for weapon and book. That's the topic of this thread, NOT Ettens. IF PvMP were to vanish one day, I would not shed a tear over it nor would I miss it.
This has nothing to do with Ettens..
Comparing the DPS of a DPS&Healing Class (RK) to a Healing&Buffing Class (Minstrel) SHOULD result in noticing a severe difference
After all RKs are primary damage dealers (along with Champs, Hunters and Burglars) and Minstrels are not
WS Minstrel have less DPS than DPS RKs but more self heals to compensate, if you don´t manage to solo on a WS Minstrel, I´m sorry for you
I say nerf it by half at least. Delete war speech. Minstrel damage should be on par with Champ group heals.
"The LOTRO Store will offer convenience, not advantage." -Patience
"These pots are only available in the store and they are not available via crafting. Nor do we have any plans for this to change right now." -Frelorn
One day I will wake up and find people like you who can share opinions without resorting to personal attacks. I look forward to that day. I guess at this point we shall have to agree to disagree since I really do not feel like arguing or debating the topic further with strangers who prefer to use personal attacks as a means to get their point across. Have a nice day.
Can you point out the exact place where he made a personal attack?....because I am not seeing it.
I don't do instances or pvp. I solo my mini and am now at lvl 54. I've played every class to at least lvl 20 and most to 40. So far, my minstrel is the best killing machine I've got. It doesn't kill mobs quite as quick as a hunter or champion, but it also has no downtime whatsoever, and doesn't have to worry if it gets ganged up on in melee. I've soloed almost every 3-man quest at level without difficulty. For overall utility a minstrel can't be beat as far as I can tell. The dps is just fine.
Its not a personal attack... really. Its just baffling to me how anyone who plays this class can say that it needs more dps and dps skills w/o thinking that said ppl are playing the class in an extremely flawed way.
Agree 100% !!!!
You cant play a healer and cry for more DPS, play a hunter and cry for more self-heals, play a tank and ask for more stealth.
I hate this, same as the people who refuse to group up crying for free raid gear....
If you want more DPS get a DPS Class, I play a mini i dont expect more DPS,Heavy armour or better tanking LI's
If your a hardcore PVPer DEAL with the class you have chosen to play, you cannot expect game mechanics to change for one zone of middle earth.
(And yes i know Turbine cares little for you guys as it is but there must be a way to balance things out without effecting Solo or PVE game play for the rest of the masses)
I know some want to keep the Minstrel class their fav underclass healing pet/slave. Minstrels have had the option to choose to heal or dps for awhile now. Minstrels are NOT only healers so get it over. They are an amazingly FUN class to dps... more fun than any "dps class".
Wake up and play a hunter. Then complain your class is not OP.
And yes, I have a 75 minstrel.
I have a lvl 75 ministrel, and I have to say her DPS is fine. She is heal traited, so I'm always ready for grouping (I hate to retrait). But I do keep a DPS club and instrument in her bags for solo'ing. Solo'ing with her is absolutely fine. Most mobs are down before they reach her. I traited her redline once and the DPS was increased big time. But as I said, solo'ing is still easy heal traited. Of course I have no moors experience, so it might be different there.
I'd say, dont fix what isn't broken...my hunter on the other hand...
You cant play a healer and cry for more DPS, play a hunter and cry for more self-heals, play a tank and ask for more stealth.
I hate this, same as the people who refuse to group up crying for free raid gear....
If you want more DPS get a DPS Class, I play a mini i dont expect more DPS,Heavy armour or better tanking LI's
If your a hardcore PVPer DEAL with the class you have chosen to play, you cannot expect game mechanics to change for one zone of middle earth.
(And yes i know Turbine cares little for you guys as it is but there must be a way to balance things out without effecting Solo or PVE game play for the rest of the masses)
^^ +rep
classes have different abilities. Viva Le Difference!
I agree some are not at optimum at the moment (like hunters now- wardens before-minstrels when i started levelling) but minis are in a good place now in PvE-solo-able in WS and great group healers. Fix creeps by all means. Please leave us alone.
You cant play a healer and cry for more DPS, play a hunter and cry for more self-heals, play a tank and ask for more stealth.
I hate this, same as the people who refuse to group up crying for free raid gear....
If you want more DPS get a DPS Class, I play a mini i dont expect more DPS,Heavy armour or better tanking LI's
If your a hardcore PVPer DEAL with the class you have chosen to play, you cannot expect game mechanics to change for one zone of middle earth.
(And yes i know Turbine cares little for you guys as it is but there must be a way to balance things out without effecting Solo or PVE game play for the rest of the masses)
It seems to me, that this guy wants what he wants, but doesn't care how others feel, nor about how it will affect others. You may not care about Ettenmoors, but there are many people that do. Since you don't care about it, does it mean that it does not exist? Does it mean that our (Moors Players) wants/voice should not be heard? Selfishness.
Surprises me that people (few however) don't even want to listen to the veteran minstrels that have probably played the class since the beginning. People want things the easiest way possible these days. These people would prefer to get a buff from Turbine rather than learn to play/build their class properly.
I know some want to keep the Minstrel class their fav underclass healing pet/slave. Minstrels have had the option to choose to heal or dps for awhile now. Minstrels are NOT only healers so get it over. They are an amazingly FUN class to dps... more fun than any "dps class".
I share your opinion that minstrels are really awesome class, with all the nice default extras like playing and mentoring musical instruments etc. (which make them already a priviledged class for me), not to mention the musical tune attacks and heals. The flowing playstyle (like the RK's) somehow got it a little too "mechanic", and also that the fights got so easy and fast...made it almost repetitious for my liking (I mean the usual mob fights), so I prefer LMs lately. Minstrels got so powerful as dps, I welcome it, but if this was to be increased, I fear for me the challenge of playing the class might get lost.
But I do agree with you, they are amazingly FUN, not only to play, but to play with. Questing as minstrel with a hunter was boring, tho!
However, your view on them as "fav underclass healing pet/slave" makes me honestly sad, or the fact that you should accept such a view from other players and use it as an argument yourself. As the devs put it, minstrels are the "heart and core" of any group. They should be proud of their role to be the key existence, the key person to any successful undertaking...How could you regard your precious existences like, say, your heart, as an inferior "pet/slave"? (I even do respect my LMpets, for that matter.)
Kids think that you are a "tough, mighty and important guy" only when you're the attention-grabbing, flashy-swords (or lightning bolts) swinging destruction machine. Thus, they crave for more dps and look down contemptuously on people who do not appear, at first sight, to be the Terminator. But we know better, and the devs did. We know that real power does not lie in destruction of enemies primarily nor solely. Tolkien made none of the hobbits a destruction machine, and Frodo was helped by warriors, true, but important comfort and assistance he got was not from fast-killing machines.
PS. I know some minstrels who regard themselves as 'gifts', and they have every right to do so. They are a gift for the group, not a slave.
I don't see them as heal slaves but some few do want that.. they want their dps nerfed to be the point that they are only good for solo or healing. Personally that would be the end of the game for me. People who like to heal will heal regardless if a Minstrel, RK or even cappy takes on other roles such as dps. I believe in freedom of choice. If one wants to dps their Minstrel or RK.. great and if another prefers to heal also great. What I hate is seeing a small group of very vocal pvmp players who always want the mini nerfed. I feel a bit defensive when I see this happen because that would ruin lotro for me. I definately feel that the mini needs more and better dps skills and dps legacies too.
I seriously doubt that a rank 1 creep is stronger than a landscape mob.
What you are forgettting is that a creep have the mind when to engage and disengage, when to pot. The creep is as strong as the player, just like freeps.
However, my Minstrel was out in Tharbad last night, killing on-level Orcs for a deed. One-on-one, me with War-speech, them with whatever it is they've got (a disarm, for one thing, but it only disarmed my sword, not my clarinet), dead easy. Two at a time, a little more work. At one point I had four of them on me, and the instant I killed the last one, two more jumped me. Fortunately, I had all those Self-only heals.
Call me an optimist if you will, but I don't think Minstrels need any more powers than we have at present.
What you are forgettting is that a creep have the mind when to engage and disengage, when to pot. The creep is as strong as the player, just like freeps.
Thats how it should be. We aren't the mindless mobs that most Freeps fight. We are thinking, strategizing humans beings.
That's fine and dandy to kill some easy landscape mobs but try to dps T2 Orthanc and see how that goes. I doubt anyone invites a Minstrel to dps in Orthanc T2 because they will say their dps is too weak and it is. I dps my Minstrel in T1 Orthanc weekly without issues of any kind but T2 I've not tried and been told a Minstrel would not be good enough dps wise. So yes the Minstrel needs better dps skills and legacies so that he/she can fill a dps role in a T2 raid. That's my opinion.
Thats how it should be. We aren't the mindless mobs that most Freeps fight. We are thinking, strategizing humans beings.
I think that creeps have it too easy. They get to create a level 75 character and then expect to be on equal terms with a freep. They expect too much. The creep population seem to whine the most about Minstrels and other classes... yet PvMP is such a very small part of this wonderful game. Anyway as I said I'm not an active part of the PvMP community... this is still how I feel about it. I'm just being honest.
So yes the Minstrel needs better dps skills and legacies so that he/she can fill a dps role in a T2 raid. That's my opinion.
Minstrels are not a DPS class. They have a DPS option, so that they can level faster than molasses, but all classes do. Guardians have overpower, Captains have Lead the Charge, but nobody should expect them to DPS as well as a Hunter or Champ. In serious group content you're supposed to play the role that your class is built for, so a Guardian tanks, a Captain supports, and a Mini heals. If every class could DPS as well as a Hunter or Champ, there'd be no reason for anyone to play as a Hunter or Champ.
I think that creeps have it too easy. They get to create a level 75 character and then expect to be on equal terms with a freep. They expect too much. The creep population seem to whine the most about Minstrels and other classes... yet PvMP is such a very small part of this wonderful game. Anyway as I said I'm not an active part of the PvMP community... this is still how I feel about it. I'm just being honest.
I am not sure how we have it too easy...
I have seen people take a lvl 1 Freep and take him to lvl 75 in 1-2 months....of course he was probably playing non-stop, but my point is that it is possible to get to 75 fast. For a creep however, it takes ages to get to high rank (I am talking about 8 or 9 +). Not to mention that when a Freep levels, he gets his skills/racials/and class traits as he goes along, he just has to buy them with coin (which isn't very hard to get). A creep on the other had, has to rank as well as begin the long and boring grind for enough commedations to get all of his necessary skills/racials/class traits. That is why there are so many undergeared/poorly equipped creeps out in Moors now.
I have seen veteran creeps, some of the veteran players who have been around since nearly the beginning of the game, get blown away buy a lower ranked Minstrel....these players (and most creeps in general) put hard time and effort into their characters, trying to make them the best of the best. No matter what we do, we still get blown up/crushed/smashed by lower-ranked and sometimes lessed skilled players than we are, simply because they can push a few buttons for the win.
You should roll a new creep and see for yourself just how hard things are for us out in the moors right now.
That's fine and dandy to kill some easy landscape mobs but try to dps T2 Orthanc and see how that goes. I doubt anyone invites a Minstrel to dps in Orthanc T2 because they will say their dps is too weak and it is. I dps my Minstrel in T1 Orthanc weekly without issues of any kind but T2 I've not tried and been told a Minstrel would not be good enough dps wise. So yes the Minstrel needs better dps skills and legacies so that he/she can fill a dps role in a T2 raid. That's my opinion.
Are you really serious? I wonder if your next request is more mitigation and tanking utility so you can tank it too. No disrespect.
That's fine and dandy to kill some easy landscape mobs but try to dps T2 Orthanc and see how that goes. I doubt anyone invites a Minstrel to dps in Orthanc T2 because they will say their dps is too weak and it is. I dps my Minstrel in T1 Orthanc weekly without issues of any kind but T2 I've not tried and been told a Minstrel would not be good enough dps wise. So yes the Minstrel needs better dps skills and legacies so that he/she can fill a dps role in a T2 raid. That's my opinion.
A minstrel _can_ fill a dps role in a T2 raid. Their dps will be sub-par but they can still do it.
Of course, you're asking for more than that; you're asking for minstrels to have dps on par with some other class... but which class? If you've said, I missed it.
Do you think all classes should be equal in all abilities? I would like to assume you don't believe that, but I don't like to make assumptions either. In the event that you do not think all classes should be equal in all ways (and thus no reason for more than one class), you must agree that some line must be drawn somewhere. Since Minstrels are as powerful as they are at healing, how can you justify making them equally powerful at DPSing? My opinion is that what you're asking for (enough DPS to be adequate as a DPS role in a T2 raid) would be rediculously overpowering. Then again, I say this as a 75 Minstrel dressed in easily attainable gear (except for a 1st age book, thanks to the lottery) who routinely solos the Limlight Gorge dailies -- trees, trolls, and spiders. I don't really know much about how capable a Minstrel is without upgrading their DPS.
That's fine and dandy to kill some easy landscape mobs but try to dps T2 Orthanc and see how that goes. I doubt anyone invites a Minstrel to dps in Orthanc T2 because they will say their dps is too weak and it is. I dps my Minstrel in T1 Orthanc weekly without issues of any kind but T2 I've not tried and been told a Minstrel would not be good enough dps wise. So yes the Minstrel needs better dps skills and legacies so that he/she can fill a dps role in a T2 raid. That's my opinion.
At the risk of piling on, I fail to see a problem with a class being denied a spot for the hardest content when said class is asking to perform its secondary (tertiary?) role rather than its primary one.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
At the risk of piling on, I fail to see a problem with a class being denied a spot for the hardest content when said class is asking to perform its secondary (tertiary?) role rather than its primary one.
I don't do raids. Still, if the raid is going to be a really tough one, is it unrealistic to ask a player to play the version of his class that will let him survive, vs. the one that will get him killed?
IF (unlikely) my Minstrel were invited on a raid, you can bet I would be healing, not fighting.
At the risk of piling on, I fail to see a problem with a class being denied a spot for the hardest content when said class is asking to perform its secondary (tertiary?) role rather than its primary one.
Yep, DPS is Minstrels' tertiary role. And nobody would take DPS Minstrel in Orthanc T2, just like probably nobody will take Gambler Burg, tanking captain or healing Loremaster in Orthanc T2 raid.
In my personal opinion Minstrels need better dps skills and legacies for book and weapon.. especially compared to RK. Minstrels have not been healers only in a very long time. Fortutately they have evolved as a class. I enjoy playing the warrior skald. I'm sure to not be the only one. I'm sure potential new players would also love playing such a unique and fun dynamic class which like RK can switch roles between dps and heal... more fun than any class.. games should be fun afterall. That also means more players and more potential revenue to WB. If Minstrels were to get a nerf in dps I would definately stop playing the game simply because I love the Minstrel dps only.
About Orthanc T2, I have no idea if a Minstrel can fill a dps role or not since I've not tried it yet. I've only done Orthanc T1 and I do that weekly as dps Minstrel, no problem. I plan to try T2 very soon simply because I do like a good challenge and I also want to know for myself what the Minstrel limitations will be in that raid. Then again even with set limitations, a good player can rise above that.. so I'll soon see. :-)
I've stated my opinion so I guess nothing else left for me to say here. Take care all and have fun in Middle-Earth! I know I will. :-)
With all due respect and without contradicting myself on my previous post, I disagree. Although I do strongly feel that Minstrels need a dps/class overhaul in line with what the RK has, I still think you are gravely mistaken about what dps roles a well geared good playing Minstrel can sustain or not. Personally I have no problems playing and keeping up with the best of them dps style in both raids and groups, large and small, long boss fights or not. I hardly ever run out of power, so that's definately not an issue. Infact, I usually have power when no one else does much thanks to Anthem of Composure and also how I am geared and traited. The fact that I am an exceptional player (not trying to toot my own horn here) helps also to compensate for the limited dps skills that my Minstrel does have. Then again, I am always pushing the envelop in regards to my Minstrel's dps/buffing abilities. I don't heal but I do have healing book/weapon/armor/gear just in case of rare emergencies that I may choose to trait to heal. I'm not an Ettens Minstrel but who knows, I may explore that in the future just have never really be interested in the PvMP route just yet. :-)
Having said all that, YES Minstrels need and deserve to have better or more dps skills. Thanks. :-)
I would love to see a screenshot of ANY minstrel doing over 1500 DPS in a sustained fight. -that means not just the initial burst of crazy damage-.
I adore my minstrel, I think it's the most fun class to play, but a minstrel, no matter how geared, will NEVER hold a candle to a DPS class.... ever, and that's the way it should remain. Like it or not, the minstrel's MAIN role is healing, with a secondary roll of buffer / support, and lastly, a tertiary roll of DPS, which I think is mostly designed to help us level and solo content, NOT for grouping. Minis are NOT natural nukers and I honestly don't want them to be.
last word..@Elemiire you prefer to heal, fine.. you have your opinions.. but then respect the opinions and choices of others too even if it is not shared by you. The Minstrel is not only "yours" to claim. Those who want to heal.. then heal. Those who want to dps.. let them be. Choice. Thanks.
last word..@Elemiire you prefer to heal, fine.. you have your opinions.. but then respect the opinions and choices of others too even if it is not shared by you. The Minstrel is not only "yours" to claim. Those who want to heal.. then heal. Those who want to dps.. let them be. Choice. Thanks.
And you are indeed to free to play your Minstrel primarily as a DPS class. Just don't expect to fill a DPS role in a serious group tackling the hardest content, and don't expect your tertiary role to be on par with the primary role of others.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
last word..@Elemiire you prefer to heal, fine.. you have your opinions.. but then respect the opinions and choices of others too even if it is not shared by you. The Minstrel is not only "yours" to claim. Those who want to heal.. then heal. Those who want to dps.. let them be. Choice. Thanks.
If you wanted to DPS, you should have played a class that has DPS as a main role. You don't see guardians complaining on the forums that they can't fill the role of main healer in a raid. It just doesn't make sense. You chose the wrong class for your gameplay style and are now petitioning Turbine to change the entire class to fix your mistake.
Freeps: r8 Mini
Creeps: r10 Reaver, r8 WL, r8 Defiler, r8 Warg, r7 Spider, r6 BA
last word..@Elemiire you prefer to heal, fine.. you have your opinions.. but then respect the opinions and choices of others too even if it is not shared by you. The Minstrel is not only "yours" to claim. Those who want to heal.. then heal. Those who want to dps.. let them be. Choice. Thanks.
Sure, you can DPS, I do, but don't expect to turn the minstrel into a DPS class.
In order to make the minstrel a viable choice for a DPS spot, it would be necessary to completely change how our damage dealing skills work, for example: all of out high damage attacks except for 'call to fate' and the coda in War Speech are AoE attacks, how would that work in a situation where you can't AoE?
Fangorn's Edge T2 challenge: If the minstrel uses the big attacks, you WILL also damage the Ents, blowing the challenge. What will you do? Just wait for Call to Fate cooldown and spam codas and ballads? That's hardly enough DPS; the ents will die before you've killed the trolls and it will take ages.
Grand Stair's final boss: same situation, if you take full advantage of your light attacks you WILL damage the devoted and, again, blow the challenge.
Trash pulls in instances where some sort of CC is required: a minstrel's AoE will break CC = huge headache to the group.
And the list goes on and on. The minstrel is NOT a dps class, sure you can theoretically fill up a spot, but a minstrel will NEVER do as much dps as a class that was DESIGNED to do that.
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