Can a warden dps yes. But if you want to fill a dps roll gear for it. Dont build tank gear and decide to dps and dont build dps gear and decide to tank. One or the other...if you have lots of time you can build both and swap out but thats annoying to say the least. My rk retraits for healing or dps and swaps out stone and bag. But as a warden you would need to swap jav and mele weapon traits All your gear and maby even a couple virtues....Thats a lot of inventory space and half a gold a swap. If you have that kind of time however. Would be hella fun.
Most pug's will not accept you as a dps because they dont see it enough. If the leader has a brain he will inspect you. If i were inspecting a dps warden and noticed he had a ton of might gear and traited for dps id take him. Wile as you can see people will debate if you can dps as good as a hunter or champ rk... Honestly it does not mater as people cant decide if a fire rk has better boss dps than a lightning rk. And thats just one class...no way we can get concensis on raid dps on rk vrs hunter or champ for that matter. If it were my group and a warden asked to come as dps and had dps gear and build. I would expect them to dps about as well as a LM or a dps mini. Somewhere in there. If the warden beat a equally geared hunter on dps i would be impressed by the warden and dissapointed by the hunter. It just should not be like that. Just like burgs are puting out too much dps. Burgs are a support class with cc and debuffs. They should not dps as well as a hunter or champ. Thats why burgs are flavor of the...year it looks like.
The problem. Wardens are a primary tank class. And tank we do very very well. For almost any content i would rather have a warden tank than a guard. That being said. We can with out arguement dps well. If you gear for it and get the right rotations nobody here will say you can not dps a good amount. You will have a harder time puting out 2k dps than say a hunter or rk. But you can put out strong dps. The problem is...you bring almost nothing els to the fight. Rk's can dps and in a pinch drop a few heals. Aoe to a good extent even rez and remove dread. Burgs boost everyone's damage and cc etc. Champs aoe like mad fools also off tank trash pulls with a nice force taunt and in dps gear and traits are more survivable than wardens because of their bubbles and heavy armor. A dps warden looses a lot of mitigation and toughness. Hunters have range and very good dps. Probably the easyest class to play so their dps is very consistant pull after pull. If the hunter puts out 2k dps they will for the most part be around 2k every pull every mob every boss. A warden on the other hand. Gambits get messed up due to lag or stuns range ... lots of ways as most people here will admit. So even if we can dps as well as a hunter were not as consistant. Also hunters can root and fear. Not the best cc but it does come in handy. Iv done a few wings of ToO with no burg/lm and used hunters root and fear to cc long enough to get thru it. Wardens against a LM even. Aoe dps the lm wins and with the debuffs and cc and utility of a LM in a group are always welcome. A warden can probably out dps a LM on boss fights. But all the other stuff a lm brings id rather have the lm given a choice. A warden is a viable dps but brings nothing extra to the fight. They kill stuff that is in front of them. They do not make the group better at any real level. They do not make the pulls easyer faster smoother or safer in any way. For the most part they just fill a spot in a group for the extra body. and ... that is the problem. Viable but not too usefull.
Change your point of view and change the way you perceive everything.
One can make 4K DPS on the dummy and then just make a DPS from 2,4K on a raid boss. That is the real number and that is the real test.
I really do not understand, why we should talk about tests on a dummy. For example: my LM does not so high DPS on a dummy, but he can do 1600-1800 on the sarumans (T1).
Frist i can also one shoot mobs whit wages of fear for "big dps". We not seeking what dps can champion done on dummy with a 2hand weapn if uses remo + seeking blades (2x crit) - coz this has a pretty lng cd , and cannot sustained.
We were talking about single target dps, yes lm's and champs can do incredible amount of dps for many targgets, but not for one target.
So plz link me a screenshot from any burg dps in sol play andlonger than 1 min what is near 2K i havent seen anything like that. Yes whit buffs of others is possible not in solo. So before blaming the class try it in group with the same dmg buffs.
I think a dps warden can be an good single target, sustained dps (what cannot compared in any form to aoe dps, or burst dps (like seeking blade + remo / heartseeker + burn hot ... etc.)
I dunno why people think that dummy parses are somehow indicative of "real-life" raid DPS potential based on the assumption that raid buffs will benefit everyone equally. The benefits of different raid buffs and debuffs are going to affect different classes (and different builds) in different proportions. Champions have a 50% crit magnitude weapon legacy; do you really think that the increased crit chance that comes in raid situations is going to affect a champ and warden equally? This is probably why dual wield champs post similar DPS numbers to 2h champs in the Acid zerg fight despite 2h squarely winning on dummy parses, as Remorseless benefits from much higher crit and dev multipliers than Brutal.
I dunno why people think that dummy parses are somehow indicative of "real-life" raid DPS potential based on the assumption that raid buffs will benefit everyone equally. The benefits of different raid buffs and debuffs are going to affect different classes (and different builds) in different proportions. Champions have a 50% crit magnitude weapon legacy; do you really think that the increased crit chance that comes in raid situations is going to affect a champ and warden equally? This is probably why dual wield champs post similar DPS numbers to 2h champs in the Acid zerg fight despite 2h squarely winning on dummy parses, as Remorseless benefits from much higher crit and dev multipliers than Brutal.
Good point, I shoulda thought about that. I guess -Attack Duration is another one of those that affects people unequally.
Thanks for posting the info, the cherry picked dps parse is very nice and the highest I've seen. I notice though, that you go out of your way to use cooldowns that only represent a little over a minute of DPS time, after that your DPS will take a BIG dive. Using BR so you can pop Fight On... very clever, yet not realistic though is it?
Originally Posted by CaerArianrhod
Sorry, but i can not agree with you in this case.
I'm not sure why so many players are "crazy about" tests on a dummy. The dummy is not your opponent in instances. We can talk about test on dummies for the next hundred year and all that will be a nice but still a theoretical discussion. All those tests mean really nothing if you go into an instance. One can make 4K DPS on the dummy and then just make a DPS from 2,4K on a raid boss. That is the real number and that is the real test.
You right, each class should have the same buffs and so on and this is what you can not (or say: rarely can) test in one run. you have to run more than one times the instance/boss to have an average number for the DPS. That can/would give a number to compare.
I really do not understand, why we should talk about tests on a dummy. For example: my LM does not so high DPS on a dummy, but he can do 1600-1800 on the sarumans (T1). Would i use the DPS on an dummy from different classes, i would have very inaccurate numbers and would buid a very wrong raid group. Again: the game (particularly raiding) is not about fighting against a dummy.
Regards
CA
You answer your own doubts yourself... the entire point is however low your DPS is on the dummy, it will ONLY be higher in a group. The reason why testing on a dummy is so important is because you can do hundreds of tests to arrive at a realistic average of what kind of DPS you can do, while testing in raids is so random due to buffs that either are or are not there. Testing 1 day on a raid boss you might do 2.4k dps, but 3.4k the next day. What does that tell you? It tells you next to nothing because your group is either different and/or somebody forgot to put some buffs up.
Is this extremely simple concept sinking in yet?
The only other possible way to test true DPS potential is to have either a pocket tank or healer to go out with you while you fight the same mob 100+ times in fights that preferably last 2 minutes or more. I don't know anybody willing to come and do this so, dummies it is for now.
Dude, dummy parses are not about the particular DPS # you get on the dummies, but how it stacks up to other players'/classes' #s. The assumption is that any disparity in dummy DPS numbers would remain proportionately the same in a raid or any sustained, single target situation.
Except that assumption doesn't hold true for wardens cause they wipe our bleeds. They oughta change that.
Yes, the dummies wipe our bleeds, which only means that a wardens dummy parsed DPS doesn't show the true potential. Fire RKs probably suffer even more.
Originally Posted by Gylve
I dunno why people think that dummy parses are somehow indicative of "real-life" raid DPS potential based on the assumption that raid buffs will benefit everyone equally. The benefits of different raid buffs and debuffs are going to affect different classes (and different builds) in different proportions. Champions have a 50% crit magnitude weapon legacy; do you really think that the increased crit chance that comes in raid situations is going to affect a champ and warden equally? This is probably why dual wield champs post similar DPS numbers to 2h champs in the Acid zerg fight despite 2h squarely winning on dummy parses, as Remorseless benefits from much higher crit and dev multipliers than Brutal.
No, it doesn't affect all classes equally, so what. Regardless, all class do better DPS in group though correct? The simple fact of the matter is, after a certain point, crit is better than offense for most classes/builds at end game.
About that Acid zerg fight... it's been figured out that DPS classes need to do 1900 dps in order to complete the T2 challenge mode. Therefore, any class that can do 1900 dps in that fight is a dps class, period, it doesn't matter if it's a champ, rk, warden, minnie... The way sheeple like to talk on this forum, the only classes that should be taken for dps there are burgs then right?
The only other possible way to test true DPS potential is to have either a pocket tank or healer to go out with you while you fight the same mob 100+ times in fights that preferably last 2 minutes or more. I don't know anybody willing to come and do this so, dummies it is for now.
Actually, there is another way... sparring. Find a minstrel. Have them equip a baseline cheap, easy to get crafted. Start a spar and go to town. The minstrel just self-heals the whole time. You don't have to worry about dummies going in and out of combat, dropping your bleeds. Take your DPS numbers there and you'll have better parses. Of course, it means you know a nice minstrel willing to be a punching bag while wearing unfashionable clothes. That's the real challenge!
yes thank you for pointing out my cherry numbers.
even without fight on 2.1k dps upkeep isnt a prob.
anyway, warden can be used in t2 orthanc ( i raid only these days so ill be keeping solely to that)
but it is in no way a match to real dps. case closed.
if your dps classes parses only a little more than your warden then you fail
steady dps nonsense can be used sure. but real dps is always prefferable in forms of hunter and champs.
rk is good dps too but eh.
sure you can flame what i just said and defend wardens.
but get real warden is not t1 dps. case closed.
but but but but no butts. case closed.
Oh lovely, don't mistake a raidspec dps class for someone putting out amazing dps on a dummy.
To really be viable as a dpser raid-wise these things need to be considered.
1- Sustained DPS
power issues, doing 2K dps for 1 minute and then begging the LM for power isn't sustained dps, 1M of doing an epic ammount of dps isn't viable
2- survivability.
Currently my champion has about 2014 might, 26.6K mastery with about a 19.7% crit chance unbuffed, while still having a little above 7K morale, i do about 1400-1500DPS against dummies. Now iv'e seen champions pushing to above 30K mastery while only having about 5.5K morale, those are ussually the first to die, and a dead dps class doesn't dps....
Survivability is required.
3- aggro
I've seen players go crazy dps, and rarely do they not pull aggro, when they do either they die, or they wipe the raid...
yes thank you for pointing out my cherry numbers.
even without fight on 2.1k dps upkeep isnt a prob.
Even without your little OD clicky and CB as well? Come on man, just a little honesty goes a long way
anyway, warden can be used in t2 orthanc ( i raid only these days so ill be keeping solely to that)
but it is in no way a match to real dps. case closed.
if your dps classes parses only a little more than your warden then you fail
steady dps nonsense can be used sure. but real dps is always prefferable in forms of hunter and champs.
rk is good dps too but eh.
What about the poor burgs that out DPS the champs? Oops.
Originally Posted by horus418
Therefore, any class that can do 1900 dps in that fight is a dps class, period,
sure you can flame what i just said and defend wardens.
but get real warden is not t1 dps. case closed.
but but but but no butts. case closed.
Who said anything about being a tear 1 dps class? Tears don't matter in this game, all that matters is arriving at a baseline amount of dps for whatever fight you are doing in order to complete the challenge. If that baseline is met, then your tear rating shouldn't matter.
This game is so damn easy, I can't understand why so many people get bent. More fun, less tears.
Is bullroarer still online? If it is why dont you just make a warden and a champ over there, go in the dummy room, have mirrored raid buffs, and test dps there?
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I've been playing around a bit lately on my Wrds, and having a ton of seals unused i bartered out the ToO dps set (4 pieces) got me some jewellery and went to town...
I just did a Prancing pony skirm, and I have no idea how well the last boss in PP is to test DPS on, but i had combatanalysis running.
Myself, I had no buffs at all, but there probably was cappy/burg marks and stuff on the boss, and when he died, CA showed my DPS at 1900, unfortunately there was still wargs and torchbearers around, so DPS dropped to 1600-something by the time i got out of combat.
I will try to get my kin to do a foundry, so i can test properly on Boss 2, it seems to be a good place for testing DPS, if you have any other suggestions I'm open!
In my DPS (Reck) build i currently have 1973 might, 609 agility and a whopping 632 vit. 25k phys mastery and 5.7k crit
I just did a Prancing pony skirm, and I have no idea how well the last boss in PP is to test DPS on, but i had combatanalysis running.
Myself, I had no buffs at all, but there probably was cappy/burg marks and stuff on the boss, and when he died, CA showed my DPS at 1900, unfortunately there was still wargs and torchbearers around, so DPS dropped to 1600-something by the time i got out of combat.
PP boss has massive inc damage debuffs whenever hte wargs die, so that fight doesn't produce good parses.
At first I have to say how happy I am that Wardens are finally proper tanks contrary to pre-update changes. We are much better in groups now. I don't have experience of end-game raiders but these are my observations regarding group play as occasional warden DPS lvl 1-62..
1.) we just won't beat DPS numbers of champ/hunter
2.) we are great at spamming interrupts/corruption removals
(boar's rush - I noticed that since many "lesser" bosses (GS etc.) are immune to daze/stun Warden still can knockdown them quite often for 3s)
3.) we have skills like conviction which can buff damage of other fellows in reck..
4.) threat transfers, emergency tanking
So speaking about DPS numbers we're not so viable but speaking about DPS warden group usefulness we're great.. :-) And I think raid should pick one DPS warden because of these utility/buff skills which make run easier..
Last edited by shann81; Jun 29 2012 at 09:38 AM.
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so it has some buffs
controlled burn: +15% melee dmg ; -20% attack duration
fight on: +25% melee dmg
that is +43,75% dmg
... can i ask how much lm was there for filling champs power pool for that picture? i think there was min 2 or more :/ (that is not too viable dps i think...)
so without using those precious buffs he could do 1771,55 dps - also less than that coz i not counted the attack duration
was he using continous bloodrage? (i think yes, cozhe must be under 60% of max morale to use fight on)
so it has some buffs
controlled burn: +15% melee dmg ; -20% attack duration
fight on: +25% melee dmg
that is +43,75% dmg
... can i ask how much lm was there for filling champs power pool for that picture? i think there was min 2 or more :/ (that is not too viable dps i think...)
so without using those precious buffs he could do 1771,55 dps - also less than that coz i not counted the attack duration
was he using continous bloodrage? (i think yes, cozhe must be under 60% of max morale to use fight on)
You're adding damage buffs multiplicatively again, which is wrong. Only -AD buffs stack multiplicatively.
Frist i can also one shoot mobs whit wages of fear for "big dps". We not seeking what dps can champion done on dummy with a 2hand weapn if uses remo + seeking blades (2x crit) - coz this has a pretty lng cd , and cannot sustained.
We were talking about single target dps, yes lm's and champs can do incredible amount of dps for many targgets, but not for one target.
I think a dps warden can be an good single target, sustained dps (what cannot compared in any form to aoe dps, or burst dps (like seeking blade + remo / heartseeker + burn hot ... etc.)
I hope i understand you position. Please do not take my postings as "aginst wardens", but i still have the feeling, you are looking for some kind of "subterfuge", like "champions uses remo + seeking blades" or "hunter use heartseeker" and so on.
It is your position/opinion, that a test on a dummy can be used to compare classes. I can and will accept that, as your position/opinion. For me however, the real test is a group/raid situation.(will you ever aksa a Champ/Hunter to not to use their skills, when DPS is needed?)
Non of the raid-leader i know (incl. myself) will ever ask a warden if he ask to join a raid as DPS-Class "what is you DPS on a test dummy?" but they rather will ask "what is your average DPS on trash and on bosses?". It is no matter if we like it or not, the dummy test says really noting about the real DPS of a class (of course: IMHO)
Originally Posted by Leri927
So plz link me a screenshot from any burg dps in sol play andlonger than 1 min what is near 2K
I will ask one of our raid burgs for that and if i can, i will post a screenshot.
Regads
CA
Last edited by CaerArianrhod; Jun 29 2012 at 10:36 PM.
I just want to throw out there a little happy thought I just had. Having a debate over whether or not a warden can dps in a raid drives home the fact that our tanking is in a good place. Otherwise we'd still be debating our ability to tank stuff instead.
Last Night:
Still tweaking rotation. CA parsed 1.1k dps on troll before first boss in RoF, 850 dps on 1st boss, 700 dps on 2nd boss.
T1 Fire and Frost: dps assist target for my fellowship, main CC, and corruption remover (boar's rush spamming limrafn): parsed 675 dps
T1 Lightning: trash: around 750 dps; Boss (tanked, 2 tank method): N/A
Not many classes can dps some pulls, CC/remove corruptions on one boss, and then tank another boss. Trading through the roles keeps things from getting too repetitive. I feel comfortable filling any role in a raid other than healer, but even then....
testing warden dps on dummies is the dummiest thing ive ever heard.it resets after you build all your dots. dont do that. my warden parsing more than 1.5k dps on limlight spiders and yet i have avarage items. no FA no crystal on item. trolls will say im doing 19287398k dps but again my dps gear is avarage. not heroic. and 1.5k is really really nice. on training dummy that would be like 700-800 cuz you cant use dots
testing warden dps on dummies is the dummiest thing ive ever heard.it resets after you build all your dots. dont do that. my warden parsing more than 1.5k dps on limlight spiders and yet i have avarage items. no FA no crystal on item. trolls will say im doing 19287398k dps but again my dps gear is avarage. not heroic. and 1.5k is really really nice. on training dummy that would be like 700-800 cuz you cant use dots
average gear eh... what the **** is your gambit rotation on the spiders? because i can't come even close to parsing that much. I want some of your spiked cookys...
Wardens are a viable DPS class. You can hit 1600+ DPS on bosses and other high morale targets. I know that isn't very high, but wardens have the best interrupts and corruption removal to go along with that. For normal DPS, I use with 3 Aithlen, 2 Porbad and Conquest coat (crafted Draigoch). For raids, I use 3 Aithlen and 3 Solidarity for the extra survivability. You lose a lot of might like this, but you gain +20% damage on spear-shield gambits to make up for it. You'll mostly be using bleeds, interrupts, dark before dawn, so the set bonus fits in great here.
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Frist i can also one shoot mobs whit wages of fear for "big dps". We not seeking what dps can champion done on dummy with a 2hand weapn if uses remo + seeking blades (2x crit) - coz this has a pretty lng cd , and cannot sustained.
Originally Posted by CaerArianrhod
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