Thread: Fincin takes a stand

Hello my friends,
I am sitting here a bit broken hearted and tired of playing. Many of you have know me for some time now as the lil hobbit playing with the Eriador Music Society. You will also know that most of my time is spent around music or medium role play in game. I fear I may not be seen as much in the near future as I have dropped my VIP status due to the ingame lag issues and more so, the grieving that has gone unpunished over the last couple of months. It seems to me that Turbine has finally decided that one person grieving a crowd is okay. Being that I am in the prancing pony often, or doing concerts with EMS, I get to see a lot of the grieving and I grow weary from it. I for one am not willing to pay 15 a month and not have the protection of the GM's. Sadly I speak of mainly one individual with multiple alts. He has renamed a few times and has always taken the same name with a slightly different spelling. Recently he has had multiple tickets opened on him and this seems to have just given him more desire to grieve others. Still, with all the tickets and complaints of myself and others, he continues to be allowed to make this game very unfun for me and many others. He has spoiled the game for me and I for one will no longer pay for that. I hope others will see the folly of Turbines lack of response to deal with these problems and like me, find a way to stand up and let Turbine know that this is no longer acceptable behavior and we are tired of it.

It wasn't long ago, not even half a year, that so much as dropping profanity in public chat equaled a three day vacation from the game. Now it seems that Turbine is working off the WoW template of letting anyone get away with anything. There is a small, but unfortunately growing number of players that hang around in Bree that are the most obnoxious griefers I've ever seen in ANY game, and they appear to be allowed to do their thing without any intervention AT ALL from the GMs.

This used to be a game that I felt comfortable letting my preteen daughter play without worrying what she might read in chat. That hasn't been the case for the last few months now.

Add Eukwen's name to that list. I just cancelled VIP myself. I've had enough.

You can add me to the list, although I cancelled my VIP earlier. I won't buy turbine points, either, until turbine fixes the forced emote issue in a satisfactory way. Thank you for taking a stand, Fincin. Enough is enough.

I'm with you Fincin. As a lifer, I can't drop my subscription like you can. I however, refuse to buy RoR or any further expansions or points until this griefing issue is solved. I realize that you cannot get rid of greifers and that they will always be there, I am not happy at all in the direction that this game is taking in regards to it. Multiple reports get filed only to be closed seconds later and the griefers are free to roam about with no action taken against them. This person is even advertising on regional for people to join his kin for the sole purpose of harassing RPer's. This kind of behavior should never be tolerated in a game like this. It is clear that the GM's don't care anymore. If the dev's don't care about a significant number of it's playerbase, it is time to hit them in the wallet and refuse to give them anymore of our money.

Now as many of you know, I have also spent a good time of my gaming inside and around the areas where this one man does operate. What you may not know is that this man isn't on just for grieving and taking the fun out of other players, he is also on and experienced with a type of role play called ERP. Most players that do participate in ERP, not myself, use it with extreme caution and in private to avoid other players from noticing. This, in my head is disgusting, is what our griefer has been doing, but in public. All players are not adults and all players do not know what he is up to, but I do know that this "man" has sexually cyber harassed minors and adults without a doubt in my mind. This "Man" had allies and he does have alts. They are no different and their purpose is to collapse the community through these ways. Now I cannot leave the game as easily as others, but I can assure you that this man is out there for more than just grieving....

/signed

Aye, lifer as well, but WALLET IS LOCKED UNTIL TURBINE LISTENS. This goes for the store, and any X-pacs from here forward. At this point I'm considering other games to be honest, as I highly doubt Turbine cares.

For Turbine: This is harassment, plain and simple. Put a stop to it. Filed two tickets on this... half-wit (same jerk who did this at Weatherstock)... last night, and both were closed with NO actions.

~Beno

Sounds like you guys are giving the troll exactly what he wants.

Originally Posted by Fionnuala

Sounds like you guys are giving the troll exactly what he wants.

Sorry, Fionnuala, but I think you're missing the point. Whatever he gets, he is not the only party involved. If it weren't he, it would be someone else. I have been told that Bree in Landroval has the same problem. This thread is a message to Turbine, and as far as I know we don't have another way to communicate with them.

/signed
Spending more TP or getting the expansion seems pointless to me when it's so hard to tell whether the Code of Conduct is in force. I understand that due process is necessary; you have to give the stranger the benefit of the doubt, but in blatent, intentional cases, how much doubt is there?

Originally Posted by Fionnuala

Sounds like you guys are giving the troll exactly what he wants.

It's not just about him. It's about the GM's turning a blind eye towards him and other's like him while issuing infractions to people filing reports. The game is like a small society and like any other society, there are miscreants. Normally, there are police to take care of these miscreants in society and the GM's are supposed to be the police in this game. If the Police in your town don't take care of the miscreants, the people have a right to complain. And if the GM's don't do their job in policing this game, we paying customers have a right to complain as well.

If the GM's actually did something about this, then there would be no need for this thread and we could all go on happily ignoring the troll. But as it is, the trolls are free to roam and the people are punished for complaining about it.

Originally Posted by Fionnuala

Sounds like you guys are giving the troll exactly what he wants.

While I understand your point, for me this is not about the particular troll in question. This is about Turbine giving trolls the particular tool that makes griefing SO easy for them: forced emotes. I could care less about this particular troll. What I want is forTurbine to admit they misjudged and fix the emotes so that player A can never cast on player B and make player B do some silly emote.

When I can dance with Eukwen and not worry about some jerk coming by and interupting our dance, then I'll consider re-upping my VIP status and buying expansions and TP again. But not until then. Until then, I truly play for free.

/signed (Abaraniel)

We did a concert on Elendilmir that was griefed so bad the people that were enjoying it actually began to file petitions.

There must have been 20 or 30 reports filed in the span of minutes, but just like the others, they were closed with a blanket cookie-cutter response.

Landroval is getting to be just as bad - and it's usually one or two people trying to spoil the fun of 10 or 20.

Think about this Turbine 10 or 20 people getting annoyed with a blatant disregard for their investment of time and/or money into the game and building community, because you won't follow through with what is clearly defined as a breach of the EULA and Code of Conduct. Yet, if someone buys gold (clearly against the EULA / Code of Conduct) you're all over them and handing out punishment in 24 hours or less. If you're going to enforce one rule, should you not enforce them all?

Turbine, you're sending mixed messages - it's ok to break the CoC, but it's not ok to break the CoC. How about dealing with the issue - or provide the players some sort of escalation if the GM is unwilling to address it?

I also am a lifer and have spent greatly for store items in support of this game. I now state I will no longer purchase anything in store, nor will I purchase the next expansion until such time as something has been done about the griefing situation on my particular server, Landroval. How certain forced emotes are dealt with will weigh heavily on it.

We have a mounting problem with griefing and not only that, but having seen a recorded chat log of an argument with said Weatherstock griefer, we have a much worse scenario developing. By the way, this griefer has many alts and may be on your server. To show the shocking lack of GM support for the tickets sent in on said player he has several level 75s. Think about that.

Count my participation in this for decency #1, for clarification by Turbine what they will allow in player actions and chat #2.

I am experiencing a lack of enthusiasm to log into this game after what I have witnessed on Landroval this last several days. It didnt have to get this bad.

First, I don't RP in games. I don't care about people who role play in games; if you do like to RP fine, whatever, if not hey fine with me too.

I do so love this business model though. Keep 1 paying customer, lose 10 others. Turbine is brilliant! Thumbs up turbine, keep the one ignorant pisser and lose a bunch of loyal customers. Excellent work!

You make the other word for a donkey's backside (jack+++++) everywhere proud.

Now, I usually don't get all up in arms about this sort of thing. Idiots are everywhere, and there's not a lot that Turbine can do to prevent that. Usually, ignoring them works wonders - once they are no longer receiving the attention they desire, they disappear. A few forced emotes don't bother me either, and I roll my eyes at people who suggest they need to be taken out of the game entirely (I'm not opposed to a toggle option though). Even what happened at Weatherstock wasn't as bad as everyone is making it sound. I was there the whole time and never once felt inconvenienced. It's a blessing to be able to hold an event of that magnitude and get away with only one or two idiots trying to ruin it.

However, what does bother me is that this one individual has been targeting and harassing Roleplayers for months, going so far as posting his intention to troll across multiple chat channels, including glff, and yet apparently nothing has been done about it. I know that I have personally reported his actions multiple times over the last two months, as have many others. Clearly, he has ignored any warning issued thus far, if there even was one. If that's true, I doubt that Turbine's typical 3-day ban will have much effect either. I know RPers that boast about prior short-term bans as if its something to add to a resume.

As I said earlier, his actions don't bother me that much, nor do the actions of any griefers. While I will not be canceling my subscription, or withholding any Turbine Points, I must say that I will be absolutely appalled if the GMs allow this fellow's antics to continue. Landroval used to have a very mature, welcoming community, and as proven by recent community-hosted events, remnants of that community still remain. Unfortunately, it's up to Turbine to help us preserve that community, because with the advent of F2P and the Steam Download, it's becoming more and more clear that our policy of self-policing is having no effect on these troublesome adolescents that just want to harass others.

The ball is in your court, Turbine. If you don't want one of the finest MMO communities to crumble to pieces, I suggest you run with it. Either ban this fellow's account, or move all his characters to another server. Anything really, but make the punishment swift and severe enough to prove that the harassment of individuals and groups will not be tolerated in any way, shape, or form.

I have heard much about how great the community is in LOTRO and I have to agree. It's the best and it's a game that I would not hesitate to allow young teens to play with supervision until lately. The community was great because we police ourselves with back-up from Turbine. A few years ago I remember griefers were removed from the game, first offense warning, second offense 5 minutes removal from game and third offense removal for longer times, up to 3 days. What happened to change things?

If we merely police ourselves without GM backup, then the griefer is soon aware that there is nothing that will happen to him/her if he continues to grief (griefing is being impolite or profane, using forced emotes, jumping into and around concerts and harassing players after being requested to quit). I don't mind initiating reports on griefing but the lack of response makes anything players do to report incidents frustrating and worthless.

Turbine, tell us how we can keep this community the best in the world of MMORPGs! If you will not support us? What can we do without you?


A few of the points in the lengthy code of conduct:

The Lord of the Rings Online
CODE OF CONDUCT

1. While participating in the Game or on the Game Website you must respect the rights of others to play and enjoy the Game world as intended by Turbine.

4. While playing the Game or participating in related services, you may not exhibit or partake in behavior that is disruptive to the Game’s normal playability, causes grief or alarm to other players, or degrades the service performance or other players’ client software.

12. While participating in the Game, both in-Game and through the official Website, you will follow the instructions and guidelines of authorized Game support staff at all times.

19. You may not harass other players or Turbine staff, including by way of example, but not limited to, threats, stalking or abuse of others.

22. Although the Game is a role-playing game, you may not claim “role-playing” in defense of any violation of the Code of Conduct.

Remedies to inappropriate behavior:


A player who violates the Code of Conduct may be warned by Turbine staff, but some particularly serious violations or repeated violations can result in other sanctions, such as a lockout or permanent ban, without warning. In addition, Turbine reserves the right to delete characters or entire accounts as we see fit, without warning, for certain violations.


Chat (text and voice) in the Game and Game Website may be logged and may be reviewed at any time and for any reason, including, without limitation, to assist in making decisions regarding violations of the Code of Conduct. This includes, but is not limited to, private chat, fellowship chat and kinship chat.



I think all of the posts in this thread question why the remedies to inappropriate behavior have not been carried out.

Originally Posted by Laurefinde

22. Although the Game is a role-playing game, you may not claim “role-playing” in defense of any violation of the Code of Conduct.

<tongue-in-cheek>
This makes me wonder if "not roleplaying" can be claimed in defense of any violation of the Code of Conduct.
</tongue-in-cheek>

I heard of a recent incident on Landroval where a group of RPers were dancing and playing music in front of the Pony when someone (the character was female) came along and did forced emotes on them till they accosted her about it, at which point she retorted to the effect that "this isn't an RP server, this is an RP-encouraged server", as if her RP-griefing wasn't a violation of the Code of Conduct because Landroval isn't expressly an RP server. Anyone else observed this kind of rationalizing?

I think it's more about a griefer claiming they are roleplaying a jerk. Meaning because they are BEING a jerk is not a griefing violation because they are roleplaying.

I wonder how many players old and NEW just quietly walk away from the game once they realize that other players will be controlling their characters and there is nothing they can do about it? I'm not sure I would have continued to play myself if I had started playing during one of the recent festivals.

Surely, the number must be far greater than the number of players that actually join or continue playing explicitly because they can control other player's characters. And are these the sort of people that Turbine really wants to cater to now at the expense of the more mature players? Mature players tend to have a lot more disposable income. Just sayin'.

Off hand, I can't think of any other successful MMO where griefing other players is actively encouraged by the game designers, developers, and GMs. Yet, this is a path Turbine has apparently chosen through the creation of deeds, titles, and permanent rewards for spamming fellow players with these forced emotes and by specifically refusing to effectively enforce the CoC in regards to them. Since we are all required by the CoC to "...respect the rights of others to play and enjoy the Game world as intended by Turbine..." one can only conclude that griefing others has now become an intended way to play and enjoy the Game World.

It's a shame that Turbine has apparently decided to continue this experiment in condoned griefing in the face of rising player outrage. Hopefully, they come to their senses soon.

IMHO

I'm posting this in the other thread too, Eukwen (okokdir that's funny...) I support you guys and I'm going to rain on your parade. Boycotts don't work. They just don't. The problem is the staggered nature of it. If you had said "on X day, at X time, 1000 people are going to cancel our VIPs with the reason of griefing", you MIGHT get their attention but the way you're doing it, they won't see the connection. You can't just Premium and assume it'll work. You have to get in their faces. You have to step it up. Write letters. Call them. Email them. Contact Time Warner. Contact the media. Contact everyone! You have to proactive in your practices if you really want this to work... and bring evidence for goodness' sake. Make more videos. Make pictures. Include links and printouts and all kinds of things. Hit them with so much pure, unadulterated evidence that they have NO CHOICE BUT to answer you.

I support you but, as someone who spent 20 years of his life having to bring things to authority's attention, you're doing it wrong.

For the record, I've written letters to Turbine and TW, written to video game sites (that didn't work out as well,) emailed, and called. I've done everything I can think of and I did it as soon as I thought of it. If they were going to ban me, they would have... and thank goodness (again) that they didn't because how would THAT look? Banning players who are angry and don't agree with your lax attitude towards griefers? PR nightmare!

The ball, as it were, is still in your guys' court. Step it up.

Good luck.

edit: an idea I had elsewhere and I can't believe I didn't think of this earlier.

This is not a hard problem to fix! You don't even need to put in a toggle! All you have to do is step up GM enforcement of rules. If someone's being a griefer, they should pay dearly for it. I guarantee you if GMs stepped it up (or they hired more of them), this problem would be dead and gone in a month, tops.

I support the opt out because that other idea won't happen. Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of expanding bureaucracy.

Originally Posted by Mandli

I wonder how many players old and NEW just quietly walk away from the game once they realize that other players will be controlling their characters and there is nothing they can do about it? I'm not sure I would have continued to play myself if I had started playing during one of the recent festivals.

I very nearly quit just after beginning to play last fall. I started playing just before the autumn festival, and I didn't know about forced emotes at the time, so I didn't understand why my character was falling down or doing things I hadn't intended her to do. I hollered about it in the general chat channel on my server, and someone quickly explained what was going on.

Since then, things have only gotten worse. I've experienced targeted griefing, to the point of having other players even swear at me. And while those players were dealt with, it was always for the wrong reason: the swearing, not the griefing.

Turbine, you have to see how this is affecting your loyal players, the ones who, in some cases, have been with this game since before you even acquired it. You can NOT afford to ignore this. Ignore this, and you may as well close the doors on anything else you'd planned to do for the game, because people will leave in droves, and you'll be left with the worst kinds of players, who will then leave themselves, in order to start this cycle all over again someplace else. However, by that point, LotRO will officially be a dead game, and you won't be able to revive it.

Edit: I've said it elsewhere, but I may as well add this here: I've pretty much stopped playing for now. I've been playing more single-player games lately, because at least there I know I won't run into the people that make LotRO a bad game, those who misuse emotes and festival items and get away with it. I can't honestly say when or if I'll start playing again, but I do know this: If the griefer situation isn't dealt with, the answer might just be never. And that's a shame, because I was really looking forward to seeing Moria, Mirkwood, and Lothlorien, and I was just now getting my main ready to start heading that way.

I made a thread about this!

[quote] This is not a hard problem to fix! You don't even need to put in a toggle! All you have to do is step up GM enforcement of rules. If someone's being a griefer, they should pay dearly for it. I guarantee you if GMs stepped it up (or they hired more of them), this problem would be dead and gone in a month, tops.[quote]

This is what I have been saying and what the thread is about. The GM's are obviously not doing their jobs in this matter. I got a infraction once for blowing my top at someone and yelling out a expletive at them and they were right to do so. Now, it seems that anything goes. Everytime I write a report now, I am going to write down the name of the GM who closes the report without doing anything about it and send it in to their superiors with a request to either tell the GM(s) step up their enforcements or to find a new GM that will handle the situation.

I guess I have a couple of questions.

1. How are you guys reacting to the griefers? Personally, I've never had a griefer at a concert or event that I wasn't able ultimately to reason with or at least convince that his antics would get him nowhere.

2. How do you know that the GMs are doing nothing? As far as I am aware, the person who files a report is not notified of what the GM's action is. It's none of their business. And if there is a particularly virulent troll, they may be taking advantage of multiple alts and perhaps even multiple accounts (since this is F2P) to evade GM action. Trolls can be awfully clever.

I do agree that forced emotes are a problem. But we have no way of knowing whether or not Turbine plans on implementing a solution. (They are famously close about their plans, after all.) I think just limiting forced emotes to fellowship and raid groups would be the way to go. There's no need to get rid of them all together since they can be fun.

Still, I can't imagine letting a handful of badly behaved players ruin my experience of the game when the vast majority of the game and the community is just fantastic.

Here's an example: Last year, at Hallow's event. I think, BBB(not sure about the band), played near the event. Many, many times Harper asked folk not to use the emotes... well.. there was one person who wouldn't comply. This person targeted me, mid-dance, completely stopping me. I ingored it and went back to dancing... as soon as the CD came up, said person, hit me again. I asked them to please NOT do so. I left it at that...

2 minutes later... Silk Glove, etc...I got hit with EVERYTHING they COULD get. So.. I reported them. In a matter of 10 minutes or so, they'd hit me about 8 times. AFTER I asked them not to. After they were asked not to interrupt the event, by the person running the event. The report was immeadiatly closed, and the person sat there... after a few minutes, I started getting hit again.. NOT JUST BY the one person, BUT his buddy too... and then the tells started... "Turbine put these in so what I'm doin is perfectly ok, and you shouldn't have reported me." /ignored person two, and filed a second report. The combat log was literally NOTHING but : Player 1 used X on Beno, Player 2 uses X on Beno... I ended up sitting the entire event on my horse. I reported them both several times after the SECOND Round.

In my Ticket, I even ASKED A GM TO SPEAK WITH ME... I got ZERO Response, and nothing happened to them. All tickets were just.. closed... NO action was taken.

Let's see another... GHMS.. EVERY Tuesday... This has happened a few times, but this one sticks out... One or two idiots from a certain kinship showed up and started spam emoting, and forced emotes... Many of us reported them. The Band leader tried to go thru proper channels and talk to the leader of this kinship... it worked out really well.. MORE of them showed up, MORE of them harassed us ALL... Again.. people were reported, and EVERY ONE of them stayed online all night. There was NO reprecussion for their behavior. NONE.

Is ANY of this tolerable?

I've been told... "If you don't like them, leave." I'm at a concert, minding my OWN business and YOU interfere with me, and I should leave? &&&?!

So.. no.. It's not tolerable at this point. And why SHOULDN'T Turbine tell us what happened? What's the point of that? If I have some arrested for assualt, then the cops tell me... "We've arrested X" Turbine won't do that to protect the.. TROLL?!

I've NO Empathy, or Sympathy for Turbine at this point. They've made it clear to me that they do not care about ONE person, unless they have a shiny penny in their mouth. So.. I put my pennies away til Turbine realizes HARASSMENT SHOULDN'T HAPPEN REPEATEDLY.

To me, it's not the Troll.. It's the TERRIBLE Customer Service I've recieved since F2P. VIP? Really? I get the SAME response as a F2P'er. NONE.

~Beno

Originally Posted by morrowbreeze

I also am a lifer and have spent greatly for store items in support of this game. I now state I will no longer purchase anything in store, nor will I purchase the next expansion until such time as something has been done about the griefing situation on my particular server, Landroval. How certain forced emotes are dealt with will weigh heavily on it.

I support this action, if they won't do anything about this growing problem then I will follow suit of my Kinmate! I will not spend any money on this game, and I hereby give notice, I have cancelled both of my VIP account! My wife and I are in agreement!

Last year I was at a concert in Bree and a griefer was in the audience going strong. Everyone started announcing that they reported this person, so to show my support for the band, I opened a ticket and did the same. A few minutes later, I received a message from another player not even related to the griefer (to my knowledge) that was offensive, sexist, and a bit scary. I have 3 tickets in my history (since 2008...or was it 2007...shortly after beta) and 2 of them were from that evening. The 3rd was to report this person that sent me this message that nobody should have to experience in this community. I also directed them to a screenshot that I captured of this special moment.

I am quite certain that nothing was done about it. How do I know this? The next evening I ran into this person again. For 3 evenings in a row I checked to see if this person was online playing, and they were. I am not going to share what was in this message he sent to me, but I will say that there is no reason this person should have been playing for a while after that. I didn’t ask for an explanation, I know that I am not entitled to such luxuries as a mere lifetime member and it’s “none of my business” how they handled the situation. I kept my distance from the game after that because I felt uncomfortable having to run into someone who knows they got away with such garbage. Most of all, I feel uncomfortable playing in an environment where such harassing, sexist comments are tolerated without so much as a slap on the wrist. I taught high school students for almost 10 years, I had gang members and even a few gang leaders as students, I tutored a few felons, and I waitressed in smoky bars during college. Never had I been addressed in such a manner as this person addressed me that evening in a lighthearted, role playing environment (and trust me, this message was in very modern day non-RP terminology). Never had I felt so insignificant as a lifetime, female member... or a female in general. The person in question is probably no longer playing, personally I don’t care. I am far more offended by the lack of concern and action taken. I haven’t left Landroval or the game for good but I can say that I am not as excited about firing up my old downtrodden PC these days. Furthermore, I have not made a single purchase from the store since that incident and I will not buy anything without points that are not already given to me.

It’s not about giving the troll what they want. Quite frankly, if a troll is a troll, they enjoy attention and having people to annoy, so the “you’re giving the troll what they want” argument is not always valid. The community still has wonderful people but some of these wonderful people are not thrilled with the way things are handled. I can deal with a griefer and trolls are a dime a dozen. What nobody should have to deal with is lack of concern and support from those in charge of keeping things under control.

Many of the people that grief are lower levels. At concerts where a griefer shows up I have always sent them a tell or three explaining how their actions are not considered polite and that they will gain a reputation for what they are doing which will stay with them for awhile until their actions cease and they become good citizens. Probably 3 out of 4 times this type of action works out well because the player didn't realize their actions caused a problem or they thought it was merely fun without consequence. They changed.

If a player plays an instrument over band songs, and continues to do so after a tell, I put the player on /ignore which takes away the music sound from the instrument. I also tell the audience to put the player on their ignore list too and if it's really bad I ask everyone to file a ticket.

Some griefers go beyond. At a couple concerts more than one griefer takes part, generally from the same kinship. If talking to them doesn't work, or brings a return of badmouthing in tells, I contact the kinship leader and ask them to deal with it. I have had good results because the kinship leader sends me a tell or an in game mail apologizing for his kinmates (generally they get kicked from the kinship) and my admiration for the kinship increases. If the kin leader does not do anything or as in the case of another, the whole kin comes to grief, the kinship gets on my list. If you get on my list then my minstrel will not group with any member of the kin, my guardian, hunter, loremaster will do the same.

As a leader of a kinship myself, I take seriously the actions of any kin member. All kin members are ambassadors of their kinship and can't afford to be rude or obnoxious.

Still, this does not remove the responsibility of the GMs to apply the COS to griefers and remove them from the game for awhile. I save logs and now I will fraps events or individuals who grief as proof. This does not mean someone who applies an emote, I just laugh them off. It means someone who continues to apply it, or by other means griefs me or my friends while we are enjoying or presenting an activity.

I really cannot support this latest round of boycotts. Here's my reasoning:

1) Griefing is constant and annoying
I've been running events for four years and I've seen griefing throughout. We deal with it, sometimes Turbine deals with it, and no one really likes it. But I don't see it as a growing problem, or as something that has increased in frequency or duration. But our level of griefing in LOTRO is much lower than other MMOs.

2) Don't globalize a local problem
The one thing I have seen change is we have ONE particularly annoying griefer who is doing his best to work the system. He knows just what he can and can't get away with, has multiple F2P accounts to swap between, and knows exactly the words to tell a GM to get him a slap on the wrist instead of a ban. Even our security folks report, "He seems very polite and apologetic, I think that's the end of it." And then he shows up again. This is one guy, not a growing trend.

3) Do what is most effective
Leaving the game just means your voice is silenced. Turbine might notice your thread when it is first filed, but after that it you'll be quickly forgotten as other more immediate concerns come up. No one at Turbine will be thinking, "Remember that Fincin guy? We really should have scheduled that opt-out toggle so he'll come back." I think the current level of chatter about force-emotes has raised as much of a flag as we can. Quitting the game isn't going to increase that level other than a blip on the radar. Staying on and keeping the issue front and center is a much better tactic.

4) Making the problem worse
When good folks in the community leave the community, they make the rest of us that much poorer. I agree with Fionnuala's sentiment--this is victory for the griefers. They annoy and bully us so much that we leave. We cannot let this stand! Hold tight.

5) Do something that works
If you are so annoyed at this griefer (and others of his ilk), then let's do something that works. In RL, when the police force is inadequate in keeping the streets safe, then communities will form a community watch. Why don't we start a "griefer-watch" resource that allows us to track and report on griefers and their alts. We can organize mass-ignores and mass-reports and cut off the many headed hydra. Dog this griefers with things they do not like. Hit them with rotten fruit everywhere they go. Hit them with trade windows whenever you see them. There are things we can do to fight back. If you are so mad, take back your own power and do something besides leaving!

--Harper

Originally Posted by Harperelle

I really cannot support this latest round of boycotts. Here's my reasoning:

2) Don't globalize a local problem
The one thing I have seen change is we have ONE particularly annoying griefer who is doing his best to work the system. He knows just what he can and can't get away with, has multiple F2P accounts to swap between, and knows exactly the words to tell a GM to get him a slap on the wrist instead of a ban. Even our security folks report, "He seems very polite and apologetic, I think that's the end of it." And then he shows up again. This is one guy, not a growing trend.

You didn't see what happened on the EMS test concert over on Elendilmir. We couldn't finish the concert. And it is not just this one guy. Sure, he is the most visible one but he also has a cadre of friends that love to help him out. The problem is growing and the GM's are not doing anything against it.

3) Do what is most effective
Leaving the game just means your voice is silenced. Turbine might notice your thread when it is first filed, but after that it you'll be quickly forgotten as other more immediate concerns come up. No one at Turbine will be thinking, "Remember that Fincin guy? We really should have scheduled that opt-out toggle so he'll come back." I think the current level of chatter about force-emotes has raised as much of a flag as we can. Quitting the game isn't going to increase that level other than a blip on the radar. Staying on and keeping the issue front and center is a much better tactic.

Many of us are not leaving. We just refuse to give Turbine anymore money until this conflict is resolved.

5) Do something that works
If you are so annoyed at this griefer (and others of his ilk), then let's do something that works. In RL, when the police force is inadequate in keeping the streets safe, then communities will form a community watch. Why don't we start a "griefer-watch" resource that allows us to track and report on griefers and their alts. We can organize mass-ignores and mass-reports and cut off the many headed hydra. Dog this griefers with things they do not like. Hit them with rotten fruit everywhere they go. Hit them with trade windows whenever you see them. There are things we can do to fight back. If you are so mad, take back your own power and do something besides leaving!

I would agree with you to a point. However, this person has already had massive reports filed against him and nothing has been done. He is still out there grieving away which is the whole point of the outrage. Yes, having a "security" around is a nice idea but not always practical. It's a good idea for a large organized event like a concert but many of my friends and I like to get together casually in or around the Pony and throw little impromptu concerts and having a security force around to protect us from the griefers is not practical in those situations.

I agree that people should not just leave but we should also not feel we have to pay for this lack of concern that we are getting from the GM's.

All I can say is I am taking a stand because I love this game, this server, my kinship, and the multitude of people I have been privileged to meet. I did not say I was leaving the game. Just like in real life a great neighborhood that once was a pinnacle of warmth and friendliness has, over time, become infested with elements that surely will drag it down to slum status.

Once this server policed itself and had reasonable backup with Game Master support. It seems this has gone away. Without the support of authority, how then can a neighborhood now police itself? We will degenerate into mass exodus, status gaining disreputable types becoming more visible and finally a general acceptance that it is what it is. Only fools would allow that to happen.

My plea to Turbine is to listen to your player base! You all know how to code and you know how to implement. But WE the players have some experience running a virtual community! If we tell you theres a problem maybe you might want to listen and move on our concerns? If you want YOUR game to continue in relative peace you may have to do some "police" action eh? We are speaking now. Its your decision.

I respect every poster in this thread. I have met many wonderful folks on Landroval, and I am a HUGE Tolkien buff who really, really wants to see this game succeed. I don't /want/ to leave this game, but I am ready to. The problems that Turbine has allowed to fester and grow have reached the point where I had to ask myself, "Is this a game I want to spend money on?" and the answer is clearly, "NO!"

And that's not how I wish it was. I'd rather that Turbine remove any emote that allows player A to force player B's character to do anything at all. NO player should have the ability to control my character, even for a second. As a compromise I'll settle for a toggle, if said toggle allows me to dance with Eukwen without interruption by the action of another player.

I want this game to succeed. I am willing to spend money on this game, if and when Turbine realizes they have made an error in judgement by introducing forced emotes and acts accordingly to fix the problem. But as it stands now? Not another penny.

They need to repond to this; it is Lore-breaking at its worst! (Forced emotes)

I'm going to admit to a little secret: When my husband and I first began playing LotRO, we seriously looked at Landroval as our main server, because it's centered around the time zones when we're both online and active. However, as early as almost a year ago, we ran into some of these griefers almost as soon as we'd signed in, and, having fled another MMO because of the same problem, we quickly switched to a server that didn't have as many issues with griefing, especially of new players who needed some time to adjust to a new gaming system.

However, this problem isn't just limited to one server, and, having met many fine people from Landroval on these forums, I'm beginning to think that Skegg and I should have stayed there and begun trying to help fix things sooner instead of running away to a different server. We both had already decided to roll a few characters back on Landroval, because of all the good things we heard about the events, and especially all the excitement over Weatherstock (which we hope to be able to attend next time).

Like Morrowbreeze and others, we don't intend to stand by and just let these things happen without trying some way to change it. I think the best we can do as players is keep finding new ways to bring it to Turbine's attention. Some have stated that they won't spend money on a game where the policies are not enforced. That is a good start, and a good motivator for Turbine to get on this. By remaining in the game, but not spending money, our voices will still be heard. If enough of us are heard, then hopefully we can see a reasonable solution to this, and soon. (Soon, of course being relative, with Turbine having many different options to consider and then, eventually, put into place.)

Normally I wouldn't "close my wallet" over the actions of a troll, even one using Forced Emotes to ruin other people's roleplay. However, if we're talking about the particular troll that I think we're talking about, I have seen proof that he has engaged in text-based sexual harassment. That goes far beyond simple trolling. The people who have the evidence have sent it to Turbine. I will not be comfortable with Turbine's response until I no longer see this particular troll logged into the game.

Originally Posted by Laurefinde

As a leader of a kinship myself, I take seriously the actions of any kin member. All kin members are ambassadors of their kinship and can't afford to be rude or obnoxious.

And this is something that EVERY kin leader should get behind.

I don't RP like I used to, but one thing that I have no tolerance at all for is RP griefing. I once had someone bragging in kinchat about how he was griefing RP'ers, from that moment on our policy has been one warning, then get out. And not only get out, but I will then make sure that I'm talking to the kin leader of any kin that person tries to join, to make sure they understand the quality of player they just recruited.

There IS a benefit into turning griefers into community pariahs. The griefer that started this issue, for instance... He has several level 75s. I have not and never will be in any end game instance with him. I also hope that others would follow my lead on that... effectively barring him from end game content. Roleplayers or not, we DO have the capacity to moderate others behavior by blacklisting them from group activities. That doesn't work for all of them, but it does work for some.

Originally Posted by Harperelle

5) Do something that works
If you are so annoyed at this griefer (and others of his ilk), then let's do something that works. In RL, when the police force is inadequate in keeping the streets safe, then communities will form a community watch. Why don't we start a "griefer-watch" resource that allows us to track and report on griefers and their alts. We can organize mass-ignores and mass-reports and cut off the many headed hydra. Dog this griefers with things they do not like. Hit them with rotten fruit everywhere they go. Hit them with trade windows whenever you see them. There are things we can do to fight back. If you are so mad, take back your own power and do something besides leaving!

--Harper

I think rotten fruit will only draw their attention towards you. It is the language of stupid behaviour which they understand best and the one they actually speak much better and more fluently than any of us. Trade windows will close themselves after the guy rode off on his horse. And they need only a quick hit on the esc-key to dismiss which is done in a fraction of a second.

Even if we would get the opt-out setting to turn off forced emotes we would take away only one thing he's doing. He still can stand amid your band on his horse for maximum impact. So what then?

There is only one thing that will solve this: Put him on ignore and never talk to him. Ever.

Explain that to your kinmates. Tell them to ignore this player and all his alts. And by "ignore" I mean not only the technical part but more importantly the emotional part.

I talked to him for an hour and while we were talking he told me that it is a joke that we care about what he does. He is totally right with that. It really is a joke.

Let us give him what he wants: Isolation.

To Clarify: I'm not quitting or leaving. I just won't spend money on Turbine at all anymore.

It's not him that bothers me. What bothers me, is that since nothing's been done by the management(Turbine), in a sense they've given whoever permission to grief. TURBINE SHOULD HAVE ALREADY SOLVED THIS ISSUE... and yet.. they've NOT done anything.(Ticket, after Ticket and he's on today...) Oh sure... I'll bet they warned him.. and he wandered off smiling, and thinking he won. That's UN-acceptable, as far as I'm concerned.

The point, AGAIN, is that the people I pay money to ENTERTAIN me(TURBINE), are letting somone else ruin said entertainment. I don't WANT to have to tolerate it, and I don't think I or any of YOU should have to either.

Tolerate/Ignore a Sociopath? Not when I can go elsewhere, and NOT have to.

I don't wish to argue with any of you, to each his own. But I refuse to be bullied over and over. I'd rather get banned for sticking up for myself, especially since TURBINE won't do anything to the *ACTUAL* offenders.

Also, Blacklisting, I'm pretty sure is against the COC, much like using someone's name here. Can't do that, can't point OUT the trouble-maker... he has rights, you know.. *eyeroll*

We can't have a blacklist of griefer names here but we CAN have a list on another site. I would be happy to make that site if it is agreeable to all that we use it to inform on griefers. Of course we will have to police ourselves and make sure what is reported is really griefing. It can be our Neighborhood Watch site.

Yes this is controversial but until Turbine considers training GMs to give griefers some consequences for their actions it is the only thing we can do.

Deto: Thanks for the very clear words. We need to be absolutely clear about our points here and your arguments are really good.

Regarding the troll-watch I had the same concerns. This could backfire real bad. There can't be such a thing in *any* way in my opinion unless you are willing to go into a RL legal fight he might start with you.

But still if this person get's his (in my opinion) well deserved life-time ban he can return. And even if we get the opt-out-of-forced-emotes setting it will not solve the actual problem. It will only pacify one of his many wars against what he makes fun of. winning this one war is not bad at all, I don't say that (!). But there will remain other ways he could go on.

In my opinion there still are only two final solutions to the problem:
Either we convince the troll to stop or we put him out into the cold. Since I am not really sure if my enthusiasm with this guy is actually enough to talk it through to the point where he stops his trolling once and for all out of some insight or tolerance for us I am inclined to put him into the solitude he asked for.

Here is an excerpt of a chatlog with him. I removed his name and replaced it with a descriptive name to respect his rights:

[22:33] Troll: Look at what we are talking about
[22:33] Troll: It's ridiculous
[22:34] Floradine: is it? Well yes. It's a joke that you can't be nice to people who asked you to simply refrain from doing one thing.
[22:34] Troll: It's a joke that anyone even cares that I do it

So, basically he asked me to stop caring for him. This is a gift I am willing to give. Might be that it is a little overinterpreted to understand his words as to ignore him. But... who cares?