Thread: Anti-freep strategy/creepside group counter

How is the Reaver class broken? And I take no offense to your comment, I freely admit that there have been significant changes that a person really wouldn't understand if they haven't faced it in any number of ways...

heres my 2 denari as a rank 8 reaver

since the reaver has a FTP status you have a few issues with this:

1)a ftp reaver is ftp and most likely not or ever have been a VIP. That means even in ftp reavers traits there is only 2 boxes(?) open leaving 3 boxes of all three different traits are unavailable to the mass amount of ftp reavers. That reaver will always been terribly lagging behind in the terms of being effective or viable in the moors.

2) being reavers are ftp beginning skills you can choose for are watered down skills that are barely effective even against npcs nevermind level 75 geared freeps. Leaving all reavers whether ftp or not being affected by the status because no way turbine is going to let someone play this game completely free and allow them to easily defeat any freep toon that has spent money. (vip status, etc.)

but with that saying you can still make a reaver effective. The only thing is its going to have to take a trip to the store in order for that to happen lol. I bet many reaver high ranked with skills or low that has bought them all *cough*.....mufbash..
i would like to think they would disagree at that level that they are broken. Can i kill all freeps 1v1 lol no. Can i kill 1..not all but have beaten plenty by myself (have even kill 2 at one time..lol). How broken is that is there creeps that dont die?

P.S. i stated in last thread about the garny group i thought more reavers wouldnt be the solution but could help.

1)GUT PUNCH! not only is it a interuption it can cut out the animation of your current attack. Several of the reavers skills are attacks that are 3 at at time or 2. Allowing you to land a 5-6 hit attack land 2 bleeds and interupt the current induction. Being able to see garny start charging up for his burning embers could interupt it and would have to recast and any other skill that requires it. Apllied to all the others inductions that the garny group need to pull off for flawless run. More reavers equals more fists to punch guts equals more interuptions. **side note** Reavers only dismounting skill **side note**

2)ADVANCED SKILL RESILENCE! Sticky tar pits pfffffftt........ Reavers are the best class IMO creeps side with immunities to CC, slow, mezzes, etc. One if your are running in a raid or even going against a top freep group how you dont come with all the differnt slow pots and root pots available. Some you can buy with gold (and what else do you need that for lol) and the better ones with comms. I always use the odorous salts pots before comm pots and it helps a majority of the times, but thats everyone not just reaver. What reaver does have is the advance skill resilance. Frees you from pretty much all of the above and i havent seen that fail me once. Also not sure if any other class has skill that makes them immune to all battles states for a few seconds...ya reaver has that..its that annoying skill charge that skill that takes away your kbs at the last second. Yeah not only is it a 200% run speed buff its also makes you immune to all battle states (downfall it is out of combat skill) also you dont have to run for that immunity to be present.

3)DEV STRIKE. -50% incoming healing to target (downfall target does have to have half health). And the last major encouter with the garny group that sparked "the know your allies" thread, targets then were far away from being near half but would be effective if the proper strategy that is needed is applied. (whatever that is lol)

4)AGAINST ALL ODDS! to me and ill be the first to admit that is a better choice for a "I Win Button" that i prefer to hit over dying rage. +15% morale +15% power meh thats &&&&. But what it does do is reset your cooldowns on all skills. Traited properly a reaver can have 4 bleeds and a traited hamstring for a great slow. You can stack on all your bleeds (one even increased + 25% per stack) up to 3 times. So theoretically Hit all bleeds, slows, disarm, gutpunch, hopefully dev strike at least once, hit AAO and reapply. Now the skill is a 10min cd but still could have it up while fighting the garny group. I imagine a successful victory would have to come fast and immediate the longer you wait the more in rhythm they will get in. So massive dps, debuffs, slows and interupts early in the game can offset the whole momentum in the fight of course that IMO.

I cant speak for the members of that group but being harrased and interupted in that manor would have to distract them or at least put a damper on team fluidity (if that wouldnt then i would have to say your ez moding it cause your skill is so superior anyway lol)

Thats just my take on the reavers impact in game, raid, and specifically what i think the increase of reavers *granted with all skills* effectiveness against the garny group. Is that the end all to defeating that group by far no..a simple "more reavers" is *NOT* the answer to the complex situation involving fighting them but i think it is one of the solutions and i think there is several more solutions needed in other terms of battle mechanics but i lack the knowledge of all the others lol.

:0)

Several points.

1) This is the first constructive post in regards to the "Garnival". Props to the op. AND some excellent points within his original post.

2) Tarbosh (in the 3 years I've been Moorsing on Landy) is the most efficient/effective large scale combat leader I've seen run out here. Tactics, positioning, movement and execution. TWH had it all. How quickly people forget Creeps would do well to heed his advice regardless of how long removed from PVMP. I can honestly say that if TWH were still around with full aud PLUS store bought skills that they would crush the "Garnival".

3) Yes to Vigrith. Garny is the personification of perfection in a pvp LM. I've never seen anybody do what he does, grouped and solo, on a Lore Master. I'm sure I'm going to be trolled here, but I simply haven't seen anyone on his level. His CD management is measured, his positioning precise and his skill rotation tailored to each situation.

4) Everyone talks like every tactic and combination of skills has been used against this group. In my time with them I've never seen creeps implement a strategy to isolate and smother key components of the team.

5) Glad that steps are being taken to make for more intelligent, strategic fights rather than pile more numbers into the zerg or log out till The "Garnival" is offline.

WANTED:Garnival(dead)

BASLION

a.k.a. DnD,Eatandrun Thuglife, Go back to E Bas!!!

Known for: theory crafting with Dolmir,crazy dps in WS.
Memorable quotes:" KB STEALAH!!!"
"YOYOYO! Over here!"

CALENNOR

a.k.a. hmmmm....no nicknames here

Known for: shield wall,awesome dps while on his champion,trolling.
Memorable quotes:"Now you see why I treat creeps the way I do."

JAIYNE

a.k.a. the Prom Queen,The Exploiter
Known for: hanging out with me and raising suspicions,being harassed by the WP,demolishing creeps.
Memorable quotes:" WOOT!"
"Kill him! Get points noob!"

STROBE

a.k.a. again...no nicknames here.
Known for:his obsession with scrolls and token, putting lightning bolts up creeps asses,ranking super fast.
Memorable quotes:" Goddang it Tree! Tree's suicidal again"

Shilowadan a.k.a. Shilonoob,Dirtbag.
Known for: one-shotting creeps,blowing up as soon as he gets targeted,beating Garny the Grey in an l.m. spar.
Memorable quotes:"Aaaaaand I'm dead again."

STILL WANTED:Garnival(dead)

DOLMIR a.k.a. Trollmir, The Lightbringer
Known for: having a needleslargerod,epic rallying cries and bubble pwnage.
Memorable quotes:"GUISE I NEED SOME SUPPORT ARRRRRRGGGGHHHHH OVER HERE BY THE ROCK!"
" Uhhhh....looks like we have a mad Tree in the channel."

CELEBRAENA a.k.a. The Cake,OMFG WE CAN'T KILL HER SWITCH TARGETS!!!
Known for: insane heals,being a sweetheart.
Memorable quotes:"&&&& you Calennor!"
"&&&& you Tree!"

Garny a.k.a. The Kid,Garny the Grey.
Known for: Killing a 5-man warg pack by himself,having a perma-brand on.
Memorable quotes:"What do we have here?"
"Caught like a large-mouth bass"

TREELIOS a.k.a. Trolios,Treezilla,Treelicious
Known for: being a goat-riding-milk-drinking-man-healing-perma-sprinting-bubblelicious-champ.
Memorable quotes:"Where YOU goin' &&&&&?!"
"Awwww shizzle!"

to be continued...

Originally Posted by Rhasta_fareye

heres my 2 denari as a rank 8 reaver

since the reaver has a FTP status you have a few issues with this:

1)a ftp reaver is ftp and most likely not or ever have been a VIP. That means even in ftp reavers traits there is only 2 boxes(?) open leaving 3 boxes of all three different traits are unavailable to the mass amount of ftp reavers. That reaver will always been terribly lagging behind in the terms of being effective or viable in the moors.

2) being reavers are ftp beginning skills you can choose for are watered down skills that are barely effective even against npcs nevermind level 75 geared freeps. Leaving all reavers whether ftp or not being affected by the status because no way turbine is going to let someone play this game completely free and allow them to easily defeat any freep toon that has spent money. (vip status, etc.)

but with that saying you can still make a reaver effective. The only thing is its going to have to take a trip to the store in order for that to happen lol. I bet many reaver high ranked with skills or low that has bought them all *cough*.....mufbash..
i would like to think they would disagree at that level that they are broken. Can i kill all freeps 1v1 lol no. Can i kill 1..not all but have beaten plenty by myself (have even kill 2 at one time..lol). How broken is that is there creeps that dont die?

P.S. i stated in last thread about the garny group i thought more reavers wouldnt be the solution but could help.

1)GUT PUNCH! not only is it a interuption it can cut out the animation of your current attack. Several of the reavers skills are attacks that are 3 at at time or 2. Allowing you to land a 5-6 hit attack land 2 bleeds and interupt the current induction. Being able to see garny start charging up for his burning embers could interupt it and would have to recast and any other skill that requires it. Apllied to all the others inductions that the garny group need to pull off for flawless run. More reavers equals more fists to punch guts equals more interuptions. **side note** Reavers only dismounting skill **side note**

2)ADVANCED SKILL RESILENCE! Sticky tar pits pfffffftt........ Reavers are the best class IMO creeps side with immunities to CC, slow, mezzes, etc. One if your are running in a raid or even going against a top freep group how you dont come with all the differnt slow pots and root pots available. Some you can buy with gold (and what else do you need that for lol) and the better ones with comms. I always use the odorous salts pots before comm pots and it helps a majority of the times, but thats everyone not just reaver. What reaver does have is the advance skill resilance. Frees you from pretty much all of the above and i havent seen that fail me once. Also not sure if any other class has skill that makes them immune to all battles states for a few seconds...ya reaver has that..its that annoying skill charge that skill that takes away your kbs at the last second. Yeah not only is it a 200% run speed buff its also makes you immune to all battle states (downfall it is out of combat skill) also you dont have to run for that immunity to be present.

3)DEV STRIKE. -50% incoming healing to target (downfall target does have to have half health). And the last major encouter with the garny group that sparked "the know your allies" thread, targets then were far away from being near half but would be effective if the proper strategy that is needed is applied. (whatever that is lol)

4)AGAINST ALL ODDS! to me and ill be the first to admit that is a better choice for a "I Win Button" that i prefer to hit over dying rage. +15% morale +15% power meh thats &&&&. But what it does do is reset your cooldowns on all skills. Traited properly a reaver can have 4 bleeds and a traited hamstring for a great slow. You can stack on all your bleeds (one even increased + 25% per stack) up to 3 times. So theoretically Hit all bleeds, slows, disarm, gutpunch, hopefully dev strike at least once, hit AAO and reapply. Now the skill is a 10min cd but still could have it up while fighting the garny group. I imagine a successful victory would have to come fast and immediate the longer you wait the more in rhythm they will get in. So massive dps, debuffs, slows and interupts early in the game can offset the whole momentum in the fight of course that IMO.

I cant speak for the members of that group but being harrased and interupted in that manor would have to distract them or at least put a damper on team fluidity (if that wouldnt then i would have to say your ez moding it cause your skill is so superior anyway lol)

Thats just my take on the reavers impact in game, raid, and specifically what i think the increase of reavers *granted with all skills* effectiveness against the garny group. Is that the end all to defeating that group by far no..a simple "more reavers" is *NOT* the answer to the complex situation involving fighting them but i think it is one of the solutions and i think there is several more solutions needed in other terms of battle mechanics but i lack the knowledge of all the others lol.

:0)

And that is just my point...are Reavers "broken" or are there just a bunch of underdeveloped/inexperienced reavers out there?

For arguments sake, lets say you have a handful of Reavers Audacity 5+, rank 7+ with higher skills added, are they broken? Of course I could be wrong, but for the very list of skills you listed is why I say its important to get those reavers into the freep ranks and cause havoc. They don't have to be the killers persae, they just need to get in there...they are the only creep melee class we have, who else is going to do it?

And yes, totally agree, its not THE tactic, but its a big component of putting together a creep group designed to attack a more powerful freep group and improve the odds of success.

And for the record, I am the originator of Jaiyne's Prom Queen nickname

[QUOTE=Treelios;6249173]


TREELIOS a.k.a. Trolios,Treezilla,Treelicious
Known for: being a goat-riding-milk-drinking-man-healing-perma-sprinting-bubblelicious-champ.
Memorable quotes:"Where YOU goin' &&&&&?!"
"Awwww shizzle!"

Err, as far as I know, the use of the term Garnival has always mostly meant 4 particular people (Garny, Bas, Cel, Dol) in VoD, I've never noticed anyone using the term as inclusive of you, Jaiyne, Calennor, etc.

Why do I see people posting here that rival Luc's Walls of Text?

Originally Posted by Maryam

Err, as far as I know, the use of the term Garnival has always mostly meant 4 particular people (Garny, Bas, Cel, Dol) in VoD, I've never noticed anyone using the term as inclusive of you, Jaiyne, Calennor, etc.

Trolololol

STROBE

a.k.a. again...no nicknames here.
Known for:his obsession with scrolls and token, putting lightning bolts up creeps asses,ranking super fast.
Memorable quotes:" Goddang it Tree! Tree's suicidal again"

I think we all have a nickname or two for strobe..at least his toon anyway

Ok how to take out the garnival 101

The Big Mac : Classified






I had a wall of text step by step procedure on how to take the out the garnival with a small group of 8 ...but then after 30 minutes of writing it I thought to myself, all creeps will do after finding this out is Zerg the 6 from garnival with 30-40 using the strat..

So... Let the tasty tears fall

Originally Posted by Rhasta_fareye

STROBE

a.k.a. again...no nicknames here.
Known for:his obsession with scrolls and token, putting lightning bolts up creeps asses,ranking super fast.
Memorable quotes:" Goddang it Tree! Tree's suicidal again"

I think we all have a nickname or two for strobe..at least his toon anyway

I call him probe strobe...

I got bored with reading replies after the awesome OP. So here what I think Creeps need....

Goblin class that shoots AOE lightning bolts out it's &&&& and pee's napalm.

Originally Posted by Tophsho

4) Everyone talks like every tactic and combination of skills has been used against this group. In my time with them I've never seen creeps implement a strategy to isolate and smother key components of the team.

It has been tried, trust me. Focus fire on a single target is ineffective since Garny group can outheal the (debuffed) DPS coming from the creeps. Spreading the DPS amoung several targets is ineffective because its too weak and will be easily outhealed again. If, by any type of miracle, we down a Garnival member, hes rezzed immediatly and back at full health like nothing happened.

Originally Posted by Tophsho

5) Glad that steps are being taken to make for more intelligent, strategic fights rather than pile more numbers into the zerg or log out till The "Garnival" is offline.

The only thing smart to do when those guys are out is simply ignore them. The fights they are providing to creeps are absolutly boring and dont worth it. Youll fight them about 5 minutes, at a 3 vs 1 odds, and youll be lucky to get a single kill (20 Infamy roughly) while youll give away dozens of casualties.

Dont worth it. Dont waiste your time. Ignore them.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

It has been tried, trust me. Focus fire on a single target is ineffective since Garny group can outheal the (debuffed) DPS coming from the creeps. Spreading the DPS amoung several targets is ineffective because its too weak and will be easily outhealed again. If, by any type of miracle, we down a Garnival member, hes rezzed immediatly and back at full health like nothing happened.



The only thing smart to do when those guys are out is simply ignore them. The fights they are providing to creeps are absolutly boring and dont worth it. Youll fight them about 5 minutes, at a 3 vs 1 odds, and youll be lucky to get a single kill (20 Infamy roughly) while youll give away dozens of casualties.

Dont worth it. Dont waiste your time. Ignore them.

your not thinking straight here.

your not evaluating the fight at all ,"we hit them and they dont die, cause of the healers are op!!!" is the only thing running through creeps minds

Originally Posted by sebo2yoface

Ok how to take out the garnival 101

The Big Mac : Classified






I had a wall of text step by step procedure on how to take the out the garnival with a small group of 8 ...but then after 30 minutes of writing it I thought to myself, all creeps will do after finding this out is Zerg the 6 from garnival with 30-40 using the strat..

So... Let the tasty tears fall

Put up a FRAPS video of you and your group taking down Garny's group in real-world, open PVMP conditions, and you'll be the new king of the Landroval server, and I'll be among the first to congratulate you for doing so.

Until then, you're just blowing hot air, and your attitude is less than helpful.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

It has been tried, trust me. Focus fire on a single target is ineffective since Garny group can outheal the (debuffed) DPS coming from the creeps. Spreading the DPS amoung several targets is ineffective because its too weak and will be easily outhealed again. If, by any type of miracle, we down a Garnival member, hes rezzed immediatly and back at full health like nothing happened.

That really IS an issue if with 3 - 1 odds, regardless of classes, its not working.

The only answer to that scenario is to bring 4 - 1 odds. But I wouldn't avoid them.

I would hunt them with every creep on the map. If 22 couldn't do the job I would bring 47.

Originally Posted by Olympic

And that is just my point...are Reavers "broken" or are there just a bunch of underdeveloped/inexperienced reavers out there?

For arguments sake, lets say you have a handful of Reavers Audacity 5+, rank 7+ with higher skills added, are they broken? Of course I could be wrong, but for the very list of skills you listed is why I say its important to get those reavers into the freep ranks and cause havoc. They don't have to be the killers persae, they just need to get in there...they are the only creep melee class we have, who else is going to do it?

As Muf has pointed out, their skills certainly still have their effects. But the class seems to be lacking severely in damage are survivability.

Trying not to sound like I'm beat a dead horse... I'm fairly confident that flayer wargs fill that role. 50%+ mits (60% if I were to stack one or the other) and -30% incoming damage from audacity, and well as the replenishing bubble and its heals, is more survivability than a reaver with morale stacked. If you want someone to wade into the thick of it, and disrupt a group, they're a pretty damn good option.

I'll quote myself from a response to Jaiyne a while back on the topic of warg's usefulness in raids:

Originally Posted by Arvaen

This just isn't true anymore, as I've learned over the last couple weeks. I've been running around in Flayer, with absolutely no stealth other than to break the occasional track, and working with Plok's raid. Interrupt DoTs wreck havoc on healers and minstrels, especially when breaking feign deaths. A well timed pack flayer leaves guards, champs, and captains who charge into the ranks with no escape from the focus fire. AoE disarms disrupt the melee classes who are attacking our healers, as well as breaking the otherwise uninterruptable LM skills. Guaranteed knockdowns and stuns stop anyone who wasn't immune in their tracks.

On top of it all, with the support of some really great healers, I've been able to wade into freep ranks with impunity. And we've still got better ST DPS than most reavers.

And to the interrupts:

Originally Posted by Rhasta_fareye

1)GUT PUNCH! not only is it a interuption it can cut out the animation of your current attack. Several of the reavers skills are attacks that are 3 at at time or 2. Allowing you to land a 5-6 hit attack land 2 bleeds and interupt the current induction. Being able to see garny start charging up for his burning embers could interupt it and would have to recast and any other skill that requires it. Apllied to all the others inductions that the garny group need to pull off for flawless run. More reavers equals more fists to punch guts equals more interuptions. **side note** Reavers only dismounting skill **side note**

Where as a flayer warg would have eye rake, with a 10-15s CD depending on whether you trait it or not. As well as an interrupting DoT that ticks every 4 seconds. Two wargs would be able to provide at least 4 actual interruptions, not damage set-backs, every 10 seconds.

As well as stacking 3 damaging DoTs each from claws, 1 DoT each from maul, and 1 DoT from savage fangs. Compared to the reaver's 1 DoT from lacerate, mutilation, and jagged cut each. IIRC, the DoT from thrash doesn't stack between multiple reavers.

(Assuming everyone has their skills)

Originally Posted by Hamlet_the_Dane

Put up a FRAPS video of you and your group taking down Garny's group in real-world, open PVMP conditions, and you'll be the new king of the Landroval server, and I'll be among the first to congratulate you for doing so.

Until then, you're just blowing hot air, and your attitude is less than helpful.

challenge accepted....

better keep that promise

I will happily take your point at face value Arctic, now its time to make a group with the proper balance and support and see what happens

Originally Posted by Olympic

I will happily take your point at face value Arctic, now its time to make a group with the proper balance and support and see what happens

Would you like to volunteer...?

Originally Posted by Arvaen

Would you like to volunteer...?

The worst impact of the Audacity stat is that it discourages people from coming out to play from time to time.

On the other hand, some may say that is the good part

I already told Tarbosh that there would be no way we would be winning against his raid as a fellowship. The most notable difference was IMO, a psychological one. He had a lot of really good reavers that used to create panic because our healers would get focused and bursted down to danger level very early. They pushed into us, created chaos and had some epically strong healers to keep them up. Probably the tightest creep raids I have ever seen were from that era.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

I already told Tarbosh that there would be no way we would be winning against his raid as a fellowship. The most notable difference was IMO, a psychological one. He had a lot of really good reavers that used to create panic because our healers would get focused and bursted down to danger level very early. They pushed into us, created chaos and had some epically strong healers to keep them up. Probably the tightest creep raids I have ever seen were from that era.

Exactly. The difference was that we (reavers... Tarbosh, SSD, me, etc.) were deliberately supported by dedicated, talented WLs/Defilers in those raids to allow us to fulfill our role of causing havoc. There are still talented creeps, but people like Grishlar, Ophy, Barosh, Doc, Rotmakr, etc. defined what it was to be a creep healer.

Each reaver was in a separate group with its own WL/defiler. You don't see that set-up now.

People can say what they want about reavers, but they still have the ability to cause chaos, break CC, and return alive if fitted with audacity and supported by a bubble and heals. They're in a rough spot solo at the moment, but they still fill a role in raids. As for small groups? Wargs are probably the better choice.

RE: Biohazzard - So a challenging group has been identified and, rather than find a way to beat them (no, all strategies have not been tried), the decision is to ignore them because the point gain in relation to time is deemed insufficient?
The points don't matter.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

I already told Tarbosh that there would be no way we would be winning against his raid as a fellowship. The most notable difference was IMO, a psychological one. He had a lot of really good reavers that used to create panic because our healers would get focused and bursted down to danger level very early. They pushed into us, created chaos and had some epically strong healers to keep them up. Probably the tightest creep raids I have ever seen were from that era.

It's good to know that you think the tightest creep raid in the history of the server would defeat a group of six freeps. I'd really hate to think that's what it'll take though, since that would suggest wholly broken game mechanics. Nyyx says he can take down Garny's group with eight with his Colonel Sander's Secret Recipe of Doom (trademark forthcoming). I hope he is successful since that would suggest the game is not as broken as it otherwise might seem.

Originally Posted by Hamlet_the_Dane

It's good to know that you think the tightest creep raid in the history of the server would defeat a group of six freeps. I'd really hate to think that's what it'll take though, since that would suggest wholly broken game mechanics. Nyyx says he can take down Garny's group with eight with his Colonel Sander's Secret Recipe of Doom (trademark forthcoming). I hope he is successful since that would suggest the game is not as broken as it otherwise might seem.

I was thinking the same thing actually. All the nice sentiments about TWH are appreciated, but I myself do not want to think that it would take a full raid of creeps to kill 6 freeps. And I don't think it would. It IS quite possible that it may take 12 - 15, and who knows, maybe even more given the testimony of some of the people out there.

But I've already outlined my premise that more Reavers are needed for a variety of reasons, warleaders, and Defilers who are timing their debuffs at the right time against the right players.

8 will probably not be enough. Just do the math on creep outgoing DPS and heals, versus that group's outgoing DPS and heals...it doesn't add up. And how will it even be "tested". Certainly they aren't going to stage a fight in some antiseptic environment where real PvP factors can't be accounted for are they? So 8 creeps are going to have to hunt down the Garnival? (am I the only one that gets a genuine sense of amusement saying "Garnival"?)

Originally Posted by Olympic

(am I the only one that gets a genuine sense of amusement saying "Garnival"?)

Nope

Originally Posted by Olympic

I was thinking the same thing actually. All the nice sentiments about TWH are appreciated, but I myself do not want to think that it would take a full raid of creeps to kill 6 freeps. And I don't think it would. It IS quite possible that it may take 12 - 15, and who knows, maybe even more given the testimony of some of the people out there.

But I've already outlined my premise that more Reavers are needed for a variety of reasons, warleaders, and Defilers who are timing their debuffs at the right time against the right players.

8 will probably not be enough. Just do the math on creep outgoing DPS and heals, versus that group's outgoing DPS and heals...it doesn't add up. And how will it even be "tested". Certainly they aren't going to stage a fight in some antiseptic environment where real PvP factors can't be accounted for are they? So 8 creeps are going to have to hunt down the Garnival? (am I the only one that gets a genuine sense of amusement saying "Garnival"?)

The name is hilarious to me. I especially enjoy it because it makes me think that its creator was clearly defeated by a carnie once or twice and he failed to win a giant stuffed animal or a goldfish. Our group is now providing that same sense of frustration, it seems.

It wouldn't take a full raid. A group of 6-8 could probably beat us (to preempt an inevitable response from someone else: no, I cannot prove this unless a similar freep group wants to play the role of the Garnival for a night). It would be more about attrition than DPS. Survive while you exhaust our power and GG.

In reality, our standard group does not have a high damage output. Cel prefers to heal, which leaves me traiting for damage. My damage is pitiful in comparison (this has probably been observed when she goes DPS). Dolmir's is nothing special. Garny's ends up being high because he's typically allowed to free-cast. His gourds also deal a ton when creeps repeatedly pass through them.

If we have anyone else, we try to get a champion or RK for some actual DPS. Shilow's hunter packs a punch, but once his inductions are hit with a gentle breeze, he's neutralized. Jaiyne's DPS is just as bad as mine.

As for hunting us down, that's not too difficult. Typically, we're forced to "make a presence" inside Lugz to get someone to attack us.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

I already told Tarbosh that there would be no way we would be winning against his raid as a fellowship. The most notable difference was IMO, a psychological one. He had a lot of really good reavers that used to create panic because our healers would get focused and bursted down to danger level very early. They pushed into us, created chaos and had some epically strong healers to keep them up. Probably the tightest creep raids I have ever seen were from that era.

Yeah they were really good...SSD, DnD, Bizzarro, Speedy, myself, and any other number of reavers we had rotate in and out based on need gave us the -front line- that we needed to keep the rest of the group free to do their work. We had very strong group of BA's and spiders, and our Warleaders/Defilers were second to none. Grishlar, Ugmog, Skrubbub, Shagrut, Baroshgarak and for a long time, Ophy on her warleader...having any of those 4 out there was the perfect warleader anchor that imo is needed for a raid size creep group to take on large groups of freeps and win. Our main Defiler crew of DrDoolittle, Rootrat, Rotmakr, and Muze perfectly complimented the Warleaders, though in later times we often only ran with 2 Defilers and traded the other two spots for BA's...just can't have enough DPS out there.

And you hit it right on, psychology was a huge part of our success out there, and in general, its a huge part of everything out there for everyone.

Another of our most important weapons, in addition to my knee (don't ask), was our wargs. Most people know I don't like wargs in a raid, but having 2 that can hunt down the freep raid and guide you to the attack is indispensable. Alagrat was our main scout, and he was spectacular at finding the freep raid. Speedy filled that role often in the early days, Invisus, Delmarg and later Tobasco (kynji) also served as great scouts. It is my belief that Creeps need to always be on offense, defensive creeps are usually dead creeps if it goes on to long.

And there were several non-WH creeps that ran with us on a regular basis, Shadowclan players such as Rotmakr, Shagrut, and on occaission Gobblemoss can't be overlooked. Other creeps like Needlewitch, Tipere (who later joined TWH), and Maggotstew ran with us often enough, and even the cameo appearance of Dreddwarg once in awhile. All of this was backed by a superb supporting cast of team players that many people probably never heard of, yet they were out there several nights a week making it happen.

And another thing was, though many of those people were outstanding in their own right, when it came time to play there was no -I- about it, it was always -we-.

So if you add it all up, we had some of the best players on the server all working together to win...much like the Garnival is doing right now. Who poses more of a challenge to creepside atm, The Garnival, or the freep open raid? The answer to that question could be very instructive.

On another reaver note, I rolled Tarbosh around spring of 2008, if anyone remembers playing a Reaver back then you will REALLY remember what a broke Reaver is lol...I mean, they were even more useless than Guardians were in that era. That is why players like NathanScottPhillips were so epic, they overachieved that class at a time when it was unthinkable. This was the heyday of Pony's and Agony led by Gmork and Duf respectively, good lord, does anyone remember what those times were like in the moors? lol....

Originally Posted by Baslin

The name is hilarious to me. I especially enjoy it because it makes me think that its creator was clearly defeated by a carnie once or twice and he failed to win a giant stuffed animal or a goldfish. Our group is now providing that same sense of frustration, it seems.

It wouldn't take a full raid. A group of 6-8 could probably beat us (to preempt an inevitable response from someone else: no, I cannot prove this unless a similar freep group wants to play the role of the Garnival for a night). It would be more about attrition than DPS. Survive while you exhaust our power and GG.

In reality, our standard group does not have a high damage output. Cel prefers to heal, which leaves me traiting for damage. My damage is pitiful in comparison (this has probably been observed when she goes DPS). Dolmir's is nothing special. Garny's ends up being high because he's typically allowed to free-cast. His gourds also deal a ton when creeps repeatedly pass through them.

If we have anyone else, we try to get a champion or RK for some actual DPS. Shilow's hunter packs a punch, but once his inductions are hit with a gentle breeze, he's neutralized. Jaiyne's DPS is just as bad as mine.

As for hunting us down, that's not too difficult. Typically, we're forced to "make a presence" inside Lugz to get someone to attack us.

Look man, I'm trying to find reasons not to say L2P here, help me out (lol)...obviously SOMETHING is happening if your group is defeating 2 times your numbers while inside a red keep...or anywhere else for that matter. I have to believe the synergy of heals/mitigation/defense is more than 8 creeps can overcome with their slow dps. However, if you say that it could be done, though in a slower grinding sort of way, then I'll take your word for it. Are we counting on returns from the rez circle to keep the fight going? Or just a straight up fight where one side wins when the other side is dead?

I've seen you work many times, remember that time on E when I stood at stab and took focus fire ON MY HUNTER from a dozen or so creeps on STAB? I think it was you and one other supporting? LOL....

Originally Posted by Olympic

Look man, I'm trying to find reasons not to say L2P here, help me out (lol)...obviously SOMETHING is happening if your group is defeating 2 times your numbers while inside a red keep...or anywhere else for that matter. I have to believe the synergy of heals/mitigation/defense is more than 8 creeps can overcome with their slow dps. However, if you say that it could be done, though in a slower grinding sort of way, then I'll take your word for it. Are we counting on returns from the rez circle to keep the fight going? Or just a straight up fight where one side wins when the other side is dead?

I've seen you work many times, remember that time on E when I stood at stab and took focus fire ON MY HUNTER from a dozen or so creeps on STAB? I think it was you and one other supporting? LOL....

Haha, I'm not sure how to help. Absolutely -- the synergy of our heals, mits, skill execution, and teamwork are factors.

I wasn't taking rez circles into account -- it would just be a slow, painful, they-have-no-power-let's-kill-them-now type of fight. I wouldn't rule out the need for one WL rez. I've spelled out errors I've noticed in some fights with us in previous posts, but it hasn't been well received.



And I think it was on Landy before you transferred Masc, but yes, I remember...hahaha.

Originally Posted by Hamlet_the_Dane

It's good to know that you think the tightest creep raid in the history of the server would defeat a group of six freeps. I'd really hate to think that's what it'll take though, since that would suggest wholly broken game mechanics. Nyyx says he can take down Garny's group with eight with his Colonel Sander's Secret Recipe of Doom (trademark forthcoming). I hope he is successful since that would suggest the game is not as broken as it otherwise might seem.

No, my point is - we wouldn't even be having this discussion because it would never happen. He would have needed half that - and often, needed a lot less and the freeps had more sometimes. I'm just saying, it was psychological for freeps. We would see one of his scouts on track and we knew it was already too late in most cases. That alone created a lot of tension, then you'd see the reavers - and yeah, it was over pretty fast unless you had a large number. A lot of times anyway. This was also during a time when freeps weren't working well together, because there were some big rifts amongst the people playing. That contributed to a perfect storm of sorts.

I know times have changed - but pyschological effects shouldn't be understated IMO. I'm just saying that they work.

Originally Posted by Olympic

I was thinking the same thing actually. All the nice sentiments about TWH are appreciated, but I myself do not want to think that it would take a full raid of creeps to kill 6 freeps. And I don't think it would. It IS quite possible that it may take 12 - 15, and who knows, maybe even more given the testimony of some of the people out there.

But I've already outlined my premise that more Reavers are needed for a variety of reasons, warleaders, and Defilers who are timing their debuffs at the right time against the right players.

8 will probably not be enough. Just do the math on creep outgoing DPS and heals, versus that group's outgoing DPS and heals...it doesn't add up. And how will it even be "tested". Certainly they aren't going to stage a fight in some antiseptic environment where real PvP factors can't be accounted for are they? So 8 creeps are going to have to hunt down the Garnival? (am I the only one that gets a genuine sense of amusement saying "Garnival"?)

Alright 8 may be too low but I'm sure that the strat I'm using you don't need more than 10.

I've been in the garnival, I know how it works.

I know youve been out for while but every creep class has gotten skills since you left (obviously) and creeps are not using them to eliminate the garnivals strengths, they need to learn to work together with the skills given to them. Things have changed and the same approach can't be taken as before

Originally Posted by sebo2yoface

Alright 8 may be too low but I'm sure that the strat I'm using you don't need more than 10.

I've been in the garnival, I know how it works.

And that will be a huge factor. If you know the players, and understand what they are doing and when, you are in a much better position to counter it...I'm interested to see how it works out, keep us posted

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

I know times have changed - but pyschological effects shouldn't be understated IMO. I'm just saying that they work.

For the exact same reason the troll worked, though it was seldom very effective with its actual skills. But that's changed just as much.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

No, my point is - we wouldn't even be having this discussion because it would never happen. He would have needed half that - and often, needed a lot less and the freeps had more sometimes. I'm just saying, it was psychological for freeps. We would see one of his scouts on track and we knew it was already too late in most cases. That alone created a lot of tension, then you'd see the reavers - and yeah, it was over pretty fast unless you had a large number. A lot of times anyway. This was also during a time when freeps weren't working well together, because there were some big rifts amongst the people playing. That contributed to a perfect storm of sorts.

I know times have changed - but pyschological effects shouldn't be understated IMO. I'm just saying that they work.

I could write a wall of text that would make Luc blush addressing this issue lol...

Originally Posted by Olympic

I could write a wall of text that would make Luc blush addressing this issue lol...

While I dont think I can come up with a wall of text on it.......

Running with Vin/Chili I have noticed that if he can get everyone to actualy charge with him like he wants them to alot of times even with fewer numbers you can intimidate the enemy into retreat when what they need to do is stand their ground and ball up.

But, if you can get them to turn and run . You can just start picking them off one by one.

And on the flip side alot of times I'll hear him say where is everyone get back up here dont let them push you back. And when everyone holds their ground and digs in hard alot of times what looked to be a horrible situation suddenly becomes one of those fights where you think to yourself.....did we really just pull that off??

Also, if you can keep the mood in the raid light and happy it helps sooooo much. Thats why I like to run with Vin/Chili, I can start to get pretty grumpy after a few deaths where it sometimes feels like no one is supporting me while healing. (I know others are doing what they can, sometimes death is unpreventable.)I can vent in a tell or in kin/tribe chat and he says something that snaps me out of it and helps me remeber its just a game and if they want you dead that bad you must be doing something right.

There are a ton of factors to a successful raid. The class make up. The skills avail. The skill of the players. How well does everyone work together. The mood. etc.......... All that is why I dont lead raids. All I want to worry about is..........the green bar isnt full fill it up.

Originally Posted by FatherDamien

While I dont think I can come up with a wall of text on it.......

Running with Vin/Chili I have noticed that if he can get everyone to actualy charge with him like he wants them to alot of times even with fewer numbers you can intimidate the enemy into retreat when what they need to do is stand their ground and ball up.

But, if you can get them to turn and run . You can just start picking them off one by one.

And on the flip side alot of times I'll hear him say where is everyone get back up here dont let them push you back. And when everyone holds their ground and digs in hard alot of times what looked to be a horrible situation suddenly becomes one of those fights where you think to yourself.....did we really just pull that off??

You've been playing how long and you just now noticed this?

Originally Posted by Baslin

RE: Biohazzard - So a challenging group has been identified and, rather than find a way to beat them (no, all strategies have not been tried), the decision is to ignore them because the point gain in relation to time is deemed insufficient?
The points don't matter.

Its not a matter of points, its just a general impression got from the fights itself. I dont mind trying/dying, but witnessing Godmode is getting old very fast.

And challenging isnt the term i would choose to describe Garnival encounters. Its more like *absurd* (no disrespect meant to Garnys crew).

Anyways, you now have Tarbosh and Nyxx that will try to take you down with 8-10 creeps where Plok wasnt able with 18. Well see how it goes and if Nyxx superior *tictac* is real or just BS.

Originally Posted by Olympic

I was thinking the same thing actually. All the nice sentiments about TWH are appreciated, but I myself do not want to think that it would take a full raid of creeps to kill 6 freeps. And I don't think it would. It IS quite possible that it may take 12 - 15, and who knows, maybe even more given the testimony of some of the people out there.

But I've already outlined my premise that more Reavers are needed for a variety of reasons, warleaders, and Defilers who are timing their debuffs at the right time against the right players.

8 will probably not be enough. Just do the math on creep outgoing DPS and heals, versus that group's outgoing DPS and heals...it doesn't add up. And how will it even be "tested". Certainly they aren't going to stage a fight in some antiseptic environment where real PvP factors can't be accounted for are they? So 8 creeps are going to have to hunt down the Garnival? (am I the only one that gets a genuine sense of amusement saying "Garnival"?)

You guys could probably down them with 8-10 if the white hand was still out. I could talk on and on about how to defeat them with, or have a nice fight with a small group like that, but the creeps would still probably fail with the perfect strategy in front of them with even to close to even numbers because not very many of them have good, if any coordination between players at all. If i gave them the information on how to do it, they wouldn't try to have a nice fight with 8-10, they would use the strategy to face roll them with 25-30 which is why i will never give the creeps of landroval a way to down the garnival.