Thread: Anti-freep strategy/creepside group counter

Originally Posted by chrisCML

I think you are confused and seem to be mixing up numbers.

No. My point was the parser does not care if you're healing 1 or 6 people. It's about the skills you use (output) - not whether they are AE or single target (for example, the only AE heal that would increase my HPS would be FH and its ability to tic at 3k+ - whereas spamming IF would actually produce lower overall HPS because the heal is small but AE). My choice in skills and when I use them would affect my HPS.

You wouldn't take the HPS and divide by the number of people in the group; as that is not what HPS is. If I parse 1500 HPS that simply means that over the course of the time I was in combat, I was healing at an efficiency of 1500 health per second over the course of that encounter. Not (HPS / fellow members).

Bio seems to the think the parser is somehow broken because he can't seem to get to 1300 HPS for example. I don't know why he can't get 1300 HPS in combat. It goes back to my first point perhaps. The skills you use and the rotation you use them in - plus the way you trait/gear will greatly affect your output.

Combat Analysis heal tab tells you one thing: what your healing output is in combat (including heals applied to yourself) and what each skill delivered to make up that HPS number. It doesn't tell you who was healed for actual damage points (measure overhealing).

Another example: at the end of a match in TOR, I look at my scoreboard HPS because there is a global meter that tracks HPS, DPS, TPS relative to my allies and my opponents. It is not accounting for my overhealing - it is only counting the HPS I heal to myself or my target that are required to bring them or me back to full health. It gives me a HPS score that does not factor in overheals, and is far more accurate than combat analysis, which is a great tool, but is only a local client add-on rather than a global meter like in TOR.

Originally Posted by Baslin

Valid points.

We are a group of 4-6 (core 4 being LM, RK, CPT, MIN) typically with a CHM/MIN, CHM/RK, or RK/MIN if we go to 6.

Yes, we can focus fire. We are very capable of following a target assist. That would easily counter the alleged 800 single target HPS one defiler can muster.

Yes the group is beatable. Battles of attrition are going to be long and drawn out.....you need enough creep healers to keep people up (and have time to apply debuffs), and have enough DPS to apply pressure. Your group will have a plethroa of cooldowns to burn to keep people up so it takes a disciplined creep group as well as it will seem like nothing is being accomplished for a long time, and anything that goes down will likely instantly pop back up. Without overwhelming odds creeps are unlikely to burst anything down by surprise so they are better to just keep constant pressure, likely on LM as he'll eat the most damage, has minimal self survival CDs and this will also act to interupt his DPS and debuff timing, debuffs and power drains on cappy (combined with no/limited rally cries) should lessen his impact once he's blown bubble/ihw, rez ect, and debuffs & range (spread out) to lower your freep groups effective dps (avoid AOE bombs/dbuffs) will make the creep healers job easier. BAs may be better in keen eye to conserve power and add some DPS (fights will be long, and bursting up front but autoattacking for the last 1/2 of the fight wont help). Some ideas anyways.

All this discusion about hps should be viewed in relation to the DPS faced. How many DPS toons can said healer counter, especially if the DPS toons are debuffed near 100% of the time. I suspect these ratios heavily favour freeps, thus the need for more raw numbers creepside in terms of healers and DPS toons. In longish group/raid fights, morale pools (as long as they are big enough to avoid spike kills) are less meaningful so it is really a DPS vs HPS race/marathon (with power/debuffs impacting both). AOE, large crits, and cc arguably make creep healing (ignoring just bringing more guns) more challenging, as bubbles, big heals need to be blown with much larger cushions for error (again with enough creeps the numbers get closer, but thats just a bring more creeps arguement)

@ screenies of large defiler parse above. Great. Post your build/rotaions and see if its repeatable by others. Back to the discussion of group versus single target though I notice multiple toons in your fellow have HoTs running....are you measuring group healing or single target healing? Again group heal parses are misleading as to a healers ability to keep alive a single target being focus fired.

Not that your group runs with one...but dont (or didnt) Burgs have an uncurable silence that could be kept up some crazy amount of time?

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

No. ....stuff........

You are still confused. Talk to Baslin he seems to understand my point.

Originally Posted by shilow7

IMPOSSIBRU!


A more long-term parse

Perhaps I can explain to help some people out, if you look at the first screen the fight is only 29 sec long, which means you started the fight with a ton of HoTs up or at some point combat was broken for even the briefest bit I'm guessing, which causes CA to start taking data the moment you enter/ reentered combat, so say you've already stacked all your hot heals on the group, that level of hps is where CA starts measuring from, so if the they all tick a bit plus cast heals, in that brief 29 secs of combat THAT is what the 1700 HPS is, your healing is decreasing and will continually decrease until A. combat is broken again, or B. you reach your peak sustainable value.

Also, NPCs arent a good example of moors healing for the second screen, which shows an encounter started with NPCs, factoring in debuffs, movement etc, HPS takes a large hit when fighting actual people, not computers.

I sincerely doubt that any defiler can maintain 1300HPS vs freeps of any mentionably worthy number on a CONSISTENT basis for any decent duration of group heals for any extended period of time, whereas on a mini, healing upwards of 1500 HPS is relatively simple, and requires little to no movement to stay alive.

Originally Posted by chrisCML

You are still confused. Talk to Baslin he seems to understand my point.

No dude, I'm not confused. But perhaps we're misunderstanding each other. To simplify, you actually said this:

Originally Posted by chrisCML

Hypothetical - Defilers are just heal hot bots that heal everyone in fellow continuously for 500 every second to all 6 in group for infinity....generating an amazing 3000 HPS (wow!)

That 500/s would show up as ~500/s in the CA parse - not 3000 HPS.

Once again - and maybe you should use CA to see what's pretty obvious if you use it - If you use a skill that heals all the members in your group for 500 a tic, the parse doesn't add all that up and give you a parse by healed target (because it doesn't care how many people you are healing). It gives you the consistent output for your skill(s) over the time you are in combat.

Nothing more, nothing less. Really not a big mystery. It does not care if you overheal or whether your target is already dead, which is also why going back to the original "HPS for freeps v creeps" is unbalanced thread months ago - HPS was NEVER the right measure to look at using CA as the tool.

We were discussing what the CA parse tool shows you. Not how to ideally calculate HPS for targets that require healing (ie - aren't at full health or aren't already dead).

Originally Posted by Denno

I sincerely doubt that any defiler can maintain 1300HPS vs freeps of any mentionably worthy number on a CONSISTENT basis for any decent duration of group heals for any extended period of time, whereas on a mini, healing upwards of 1500 HPS is relatively simple, and requires little to no movement to stay alive.

Shilo parsed 1300 in a fight lasting over 5 minutes fighting the GG - in a group with 8 defilers. 5 minute fights in the Moors are the exception; most fights are 30 seconds because most fights are just zerg fests. I'd say that was a decent duration fight, wouldn't you?

*shrugs* it's really all situationally dependent, that's the problem with just showing just a picture, you and I both know a stand still healer in a big Zerg standing in a safer zone puts out more HPS than one being targeted and kiting, also I haven't had much of a chance to do comparative numbers #'s with a solid defiler in a little while and I'll be the first to admit I could be (or am) wrong, but just saying anyway you look at it, 30 sec snippets aren't really that great to measure HPS differences, pretty sure in theory with VG, 2 SoS, FH, and some AoE heals (with crits of course [and/or gear swaps, w/e works for the healer])a mini could break 4k, no?

(Oh, and as a side note, couldn't Bio have someone he is healing check their CA for how much heals/HPS he's done to them, to get the single target HPS done to that specific person by Bio, as well as it showing other creeps heals to said person separately?)

Originally Posted by Denno

*shrugs* it's really all situationally dependent, that's the problem with just showing just a picture, you and I both know a stand still healer in a big Zerg standing in a safer zone puts out more HPS than one being targeted and kiting, also I haven't had much of a chance to do comparative numbers #'s with a solid defiler in a little while and I'll be the first to admit I could be (or am) wrong, but just saying anyway you look at it, 30 sec snippets aren't really that great to measure HPS differences, pretty sure in theory with VG, 2 SoS, FH, and some AoE heals (with crits of course [and/or gear swaps, w/e works for the healer])a mini could break 4k, no?

Couple things:
1. The fights in which these creeps are fighting against the GG are not big freep zergs where the freep healer(s) are safely tucked away healing. Most times the freeps are fighting at least double and very often 3x+ their numbers and often, we're having to do so inside enemy keeps.
2 No, neither a minstrel nor any other class can parse 4000 HPS in Lotro. That's statistically impossible because there is absolutely no skill which allows you to maintain 4000 hit points per second over any period of time. Again what some of you are missing that HPS is not additive, it's output based on skill use over time (which is why if you open your details in CA you will see your totals and total HPS by healing skill - not by healed member).

My minstrel is about as well geared as exists in Lotro and while I trait 4 PoS and 3 WoS, my highest parse ever in PvE land where you can get insane healing amounts unlike in PvP, is ~1900 HPS in a Saruman T2 fight. Pure WoS healers could maybe get slightly more but I'd be surprised if it were significantly more. You can see my Lightening T2 parse is just shy of 1500 HPS. These aren't fights where you sit there and spam bolster; you're using your entire heal skillset - and CDs - to win. Again, PvP parses will be a fraction of this most of the time.

Originally Posted by Denno

(Oh, and as a side note, couldn't Bio have someone he is healing check their CA for how much heals/HPS he's done to them, to get the single target HPS done to that specific person by Bio, as well as it showing other creeps heals to said person separately?)

I am currently traveling out of the country, so I cannot check my CA, but I believe that yes, one could see what other people heal you for in their own heal tab at the end of combat - but not the healer's total HPS simply because only their own CA would show their total HPS across combat.

If you look at the screenshot I posted earlier, it shows other people (and the boss) as the other heals I received in that fight. One was a captain in the other group, one was the healing RK in the other group and one was the boss (his healing was via Revealing of course).

I have to say, some of you have really left your logic brains in bed or something. Let it be known that Biohazzard is wrong in every single way possible and I do not agree with him about anything.

However, multi-target healing is a ridiculous and pointless metric. It's quite obvious to see how Shilow made those high parses, but they are meaningless. Clearly, if I have HoTs running on 6 targets, then for ever tic, I make 6 times the heals. It's not a question of CombatAnalysis not being able to distinguish overheals or out of combat pre-HoTing, it's simply the fact that defiler HoTs last 30s and can be applied to multiple targets in sequence.

Now let me explain why it is meaningless. We are saying that Shilow, on his defiler, can output 1300-1700 Hps, right? So what if a group of 3 average hunters, who vs. full audacity creeps, can output about 500dps each. Are we saying that a single defiler can out heal the focus fire of these hunters? It is HIGHLY unlikely, because as I said before, a good portion of the 1300-1700 Hps that Shilow is recording, is actually going to creeps who don't need any heals. In other words, can a defiler, ANY defiler, heal that much single target? I wait to be convinced.

I don't care who is healing, mini's, rk's, cappy's, defilers, wl's or even wardens, the only meaningful metric for healing is single target Hps. This will show you how much focus fire a single healer can potentially neutralise.

Why do you think we measure Dps as single target only? When I was level 50 I managed to parse over 10,000dps on my Champ. All I did was take him to the goblin camp in the shire, tag like every single mob, then hit raging blades and repeat until I got one with 8+ crits. So could my level 50 champ REALLY do 10,000dps? Well, yeah, according to Jaiyne/Shilow/Dolmir etc. logic, that's exactly what I was capable of, and thus, all further conversations about champ Dps will begin from the assumption that a decent champ is capable of doing 10,000 dps at level 50.

Multi-target healing output is an interesting side note, but it really is a strawman argument of the worst kind to suggest that it is the standard. I expected more from some of the people using it as a meaningful value. Perhaps in various PvE scenarios, such as the turtle, (lol), or similar, it might be a useful thing to know, but for the moors especially, it is meaningless.

Simply put, there is no way Lukdirt can out-heal 1200dps of focus fire on a target. That's what we want to know. How much focus fire can an individual healer neutralise by themselves? The amount of healing they are giving to people who aren't being targetted is meaningless.

Originally Posted by pibob314

I have to say, some of you have really left your logic brains in bed or something.

Oh look! Another fake@$$ expert that will share his wisdom with us, poor Creeps. Knowing this individual past history in those forum, im beting he will contredict anything i said previously.

Originally Posted by pibob314

Let it be known that Biohazzard is wrong in every single way possible and I do not agree with him about anything.

See? What i just told you guys !!! Even if some of the best healers in LOTRO agreed with me here:

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ling-Imbalance

He will still try to argue im wrong. Talk about someone that left his brain in bed. This guy never had one to begin with.

Originally Posted by pibob314

However, multi-target healing is a ridiculous and pointless metric. I don't care who is healing, mini's, rk's, cappy's, defilers, wl's or even wardens, the only meaningful metric for healing is single target Hps. This will show you how much focus fire a single healer can potentially neutralise.

Hey genius ! I posted half a dozen post to explain the exact same thing to everyone but you said, right at the beginning of your post, that you desagree with everything i posted in this thread ! Which one is it?

Originally Posted by pibob314

Simply put, there is no way Lukdirt can out-heal 1200dps of focus fire on a target. That's what we want to know. How much focus fire can an individual healer neutralise by themselves? The amount of healing they are giving to people who aren't being targetted is meaningless.

The Mayan were right ! Its the end of the world soon ! Self-Proclaimed Healing Fake@$$ expert and myself agree on something.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

Couple things:
1. The fights in which these creeps are fighting against the GG are not big freep zergs where the freep healer(s) are safely tucked away healing. Most times the freeps are fighting at least double and very often 3x+ their numbers and often, we're having to do so inside enemy keeps.
2 No, neither a minstrel nor any other class can parse 4000 HPS in Lotro. That's statistically impossible because there is absolutely no skill which allows you to maintain 4000 hit points per second over any period of time. Again what some of you are missing that HPS is not additive, it's output based on skill use over time (which is why if you open your details in CA you will see your totals and total HPS by healing skill - not by healed member).

My minstrel is about as well geared as exists in Lotro and while I trait 4 PoS and 3 WoS, my highest parse ever in PvE land where you can get insane healing amounts unlike in PvP, is ~1900 HPS in a Saruman T2 fight. Pure WoS healers could maybe get slightly more but I'd be surprised if it were significantly more. You can see my Lightening T2 parse is just shy of 1500 HPS. These aren't fights where you sit there and spam bolster; you're using your entire heal skillset - and CDs - to win. Again, PvP parses will be a fraction of this most of the time.



I am currently traveling out of the country, so I cannot check my CA, but I believe that yes, one could see what other people heal you for in their own heal tab at the end of combat - but not the healer's total HPS simply because only their own CA would show their total HPS across combat.

If you look at the screenshot I posted earlier, it shows other people (and the boss) as the other heals I received in that fight. One was a captain in the other group, one was the healing RK in the other group and one was the boss (his healing was via Revealing of course).

*sigh* I'm not saying sustainable, I'm not even saying for 30 secs, sometimes CA can, will, and has parsed for 20 seconds of a fight, anytime combat is dropped or in some cases lag spikes have been enough CA will stop the current encounter and start a new one, example below with 3xBallad Buff and hots prior to engaging and backing off, which for myself traited mostly WoS and in full raid gear, is just an realistic number for no AoE heals, it's more or less and unrealistic number until RoR comes out and we're all level 85.



So, pardon me if I extremely over-exagerated, but in brief parses where the healer already has every single HoT up and is casting as well it is extremely possible for CA to show absolutely absurd numbers when you combine raid buffs, your raid/groups overall incoming healing rating, the HoTs that were previously up, and the amount of casting you do with the HoTs up. In other words, CA isn't exactly the most reliable tool ever... I didn't actually mean to say anyone can literally do 4000HPS but I've had lag spikes in T2 Raids where it's gone as high 2.5k for a seperate encouter within the same boss fight, which just isn't true, I cannot put out that much HPS, especially since I do not have a FA yet, I'm not trying to argue with you Jaiyne, I agree with you, just some folks asked about CA, and it really isn't the most reliable thing to read off of screenshots :/

Meh, I stopped reading posts in here.

But without knowing what my HPS is through nerding this nerd game more than it needs to be nerded. I am a healing beast when I am in group/raid scenarios and I actually stop talking smack in ooc and actually play Defiler instead of Darth Pickle.

Who gives a monkey nut if freeps outheal creeps. Creep attitude towards fights lately is a major component of getting our arses kicked (I am guilty of this also when this audacity &&&& came in).

Quit your bitching, find a freep and punch it in the face.

All the parsing is good for a guide, a small measure of capabilities. A good group/raid leader that understands what Warleaders and Defilers bring to the fight should have a good idea of how many they need of each to deal with what they are facing out there.

Its largely useless for studying or analyzing how a fight will go. Its largely useless for determining how good someone is at their class.

Creeps should roll with the minimal amount of healing they need and focus on DPS and CC. A protracted fight is in the favor of the freep group. A creep group needs to stay on offense, it needs to be the attacker. Doing this gives a significant increase to success. You get caught flat-footed and get into a grind-fest...forget about it. (Baslin's comments about draining power and grinding it out are TRUE, but its not ideal or recommended to take this approach in general, though it may be the only way a smaller lighter creep group can deal with a freep group running their type of strategy).

And I will say it again, with respectful disagreement to those that think otherwise, you NEED your Reavers. An earlier post outlined the issues with FTP Reavers, good points were made. But creepside has always been at its weakest without "developed" Reavers. Quit telling new people to roll wargs

Originally Posted by pibob314

I dislike AOE

While you raise a valid point, I think there is a focus on AOE healing because this is where the biggest disparity is.

If we took a look at freep vs. creep single target potential output only we would find that the numbers are much closer.

If a minstrel or RK used only single target abilities for example, they would struggle to break 1k hps. Similarly a captain would clock in at a meager 500. A defiler would likely hover around 700hps, as for WL's I'm unsure but I think that they would have trouble sustaining 300 single target.

Note that not only creep healers have the ability to heal themselves or the group, Wargs and BAs have the ability to provide limited support and healing for the group. Warg heal may be limited in it's uses, but Uruk heal can and will save a player from dieing.

Note that it's not one healer that's doing all the work in these groups, but rather a conglomeration of players working to support each other.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

Oh look! Another fake@$$ expert that will share his wisdom with us, poor Creeps. Knowing this individual past history in those forum, im beting he will contredict anything i said previously.

./sigh. You see, this is why I don't agree with anything you say in the forums. You're just a troll. You're not reading anything anyone writes, you're not responding to legitimate points or questions, you've just got this opinion about how things are and if they disagree with you or raise any issue which you cannot counter, you just start name-calling and belittling people. If you want to start talking about past post history, take a look at yourself, grow up, then come back to me.

See? What i just told you guys !!! Even if some of the best healers in LOTRO agreed with me here:

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...ling-Imbalance

He will still try to argue im wrong. Talk about someone that left his brain in bed. This guy never had one to begin with.

There is a difference between saying that I disagree with you in principle because of your childish trolling attempts and what you've assumed I said. For the record, if you bothered to read my post instead of just jumping in to attack me, you'll realise that the people I was suggesting were being illogical were the people you were unsuccesfully trying to argue with.

Hey genius ! I posted half a dozen post to explain the exact same thing to everyone but you said, right at the beginning of your post, that you desagree with everything i posted in this thread ! Which one is it?

The fundamental difference between what you have been saying and what I have been saying is that I have provided my points in a reasoned and mature manner. You provide no evidence, do not structure your points and simply bash and attack anyone who disagrees with you, even if they provide valid points for discussion and rebuttal. I stand by what I said at the beginning of my post, whilst we may have similar points to make, do not think for one second that I am "on your side". I don't side with trolls.

The Mayan were right ! Its the end of the world soon ! Self-Proclaimed Healing Fake@$$ expert and myself agree on something.

For the record, because you know so little, long, long before I started freeping, I was a creep. My first and main creep was a defiler, I know a little bit about how they work. I for sure was playing a defiler long before you were, and if there are still any vets playing on Meneldor, you should go and ask them about a defiler named Alkemist if you're interested in my CV. Long ago, I made posts ADVISING defilers on this server on how to 1v1 effectively. Posts that defilers such as Wyver and Ech may or may not remember which set them on the road to playing their defilers as 1v1 beasts.

Furthermore, in what part of my post was I claiming to be a healing expert anyway? I never mentioned anything about healing techniques or efficient rotations or anything like that. My post was about logic and the use of a certain measurable quantity as a metric for analysis and it's redundancy (in my opinion). Nothing to do with actual healing. All in all, your post is simply a pointless attempt at trolling because you want to have your voice heard. And like I said before, I don't take sides with trolls. Read what my post was actually about, there's far more detail in there than anything you've tried to say. You're welcome to agree with me, but in principle, I disagree with you due to your rudeness, name-calling and immaturity.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

.....still confused....math is hard....

I understand what you are saying. You don't understand me, and/or are failing to grasp logic for some reason. I'm not arguing with you about what CA captures....I'm arguing with you about what you SHOULD be measuring. Its a straight forward test - garbage in garbage out. You are generating HPS stats that are meaningless in the context we are discussing.

See poster below for someone who grasps it...

Originally Posted by pibob314

I have to say, some of you have really left your logic brains in bed or something.

However, multi-target healing is a ridiculous and pointless metric.

I don't care who is healing, mini's, rk's, cappy's, defilers, wl's or even wardens, the only meaningful metric for healing is single target Hps. This will show you how much focus fire a single healer can potentially neutralise.

Multi-target healing output is an interesting side note, but it really is a strawman argument of the worst kind to suggest that it is the standard. I expected more from some of the people using it as a meaningful value. Perhaps in various PvE scenarios, such as the turtle, (lol), or similar, it might be a useful thing to know, but for the moors especially, it is meaningless.

^QFT

Sadly, apparently knowledge of game mechanics, parsing, logic and grade school math are rare enough in this thread that I need to +rep you for actually knowing what you are talking about

Scary to think this thread might be representative of game testers knowledge lol.

Originally Posted by NeedlesslyLargeRod

While you raise a valid point, I think there is a focus on AOE healing because this is where the biggest disparity is.

If we took a look at freep vs. creep single target potential output only we would find that the numbers are much closer.

If a minstrel or RK used only single target abilities for example, they would struggle to break 1k hps. Similarly a captain would clock in at a meager 500. A defiler would likely hover around 700hps, as for WL's I'm unsure but I think that they would have trouble sustaining 300 single target.

Note that not only creep healers have the ability to heal themselves or the group, Wargs and BAs have the ability to provide limited support and healing for the group. Warg heal may be limited in it's uses, but Uruk heal can and will save a player from dieing.

Note that it's not one healer that's doing all the work in these groups, but rather a conglomeration of players working to support each other.

I agree with what you've said, but this does not make taking multi-target heals as a metric any more desirable. Just because the numbers end up being lower, does not mean they are wrong or not useful.

As a direct analogy, when parsing dps, a champ wouldn't go and round up 4-5 mobs to spam aoe skills and get the biggest number possible. It's redundant. Sure, it's a decent idea for situationally determining good aoe rotations (not that there is much subtlety to champ aoe rotations, cd's/fervour gen pretty much determine the rotation for itself), but that's all it is, a situational metric. What champs tend to do, and what they have always done (I've played champ pve since launch), is fight single targets when parsing.

I'm sure you'll agree that AoE dps parses are not something that people pay much attention to. Likewise, I suggest that the same should be true for multi-target healing parses.

Of course there are situations where multi-target healing is useful and required. Of course there are skills, racial and otherwise, which have healing/emergency support capabilities. Unfortunately, you can't put everything and every situation into a single metric, you have to draw the line somewhere.

If you wanted to do an all encompasing metric, it would have to include the effects of bubbles too. Say a bubble reduces incoming damage by 80%, well, by extention, any heal applied to that target is effectively 80% more potent because it is effectively neutralising 80% more damage. Let's factor that in. How about moving target vs. non-tactical classes? That's reducing incoming damage, thereby making incoming healing more potent. Or how about defiant challenge for wardens? The list could go on.

See, whilst these are not directly measurable healing metrics, they are situationally valid and have a direct impact on the survivability of a group. Much like defeat responses, the quantity of defilers/captains/rk's etc, healing force multipliers, emergency skills, even debuffs.

Once you get onto this road of multi-target healing parses, you begin to lose a sense of reality, or, you are showing data which is really not useful. If you want to provide a metric, make it single target healing, and everything after that builds from there.

Much like the hunter who parses 1500dps or something like that on a training dummy. Then he can say to himself, well, if I was grouped with X,Y,Z classes, and they used A,B,C debuffs, and I got 4,5,6 buffs, and then I used this, that, and the other clickies, I could get up to "whatever" dps. It's a benchmark.

So for healing it should be the same, or similar at least. A healer can say, for example, I can heal 800hps on this target, then all the situational circumstances can be built upon from there.

The main issue is, if you're saying defilers, or any class for that matter, can heal a certain amount, based on multi-target healing parses, then someone comes along and does 80% of that amount in dps to a target, and kills that target, we end up in a situation which is seemingly impossible and game breaking. How can this 1000dps hunter be killing a target who is being healed by a 1300hps defiler?

Sorry, this has gone on quite long, one last point. I'm not saying that any of this situational circumstances is wrong, indeed, even though my choice of wording implies that it is something that occurs the minority of the time, I understand and agree that the opposite is true. My only main point is, for the purposes of discussion and analysis, it is redundant to begin with multi-target healing parses since they require the presence of whatever circumstance they are in. Instead, begin with single target, and add the circumstances on top of that.

That's me done, sorry, lol.

Originally Posted by pibob314

[/COLOR]./sigh. You see, this is why I don't agree with anything you say in the forums. You're just a troll. You're not reading anything anyone writes, you're not responding to legitimate points or questions, you've just got this opinion about how things are and if they disagree with you or raise any issue which you cannot counter, you just start name-calling and belittling people. If you want to start talking about past post history, take a look at yourself, grow up, then come back to me.

No im not just a troll. I can debate properly and logicly with anyone that worth it. Unfortunatly for you, both you and Needless dont fall into that category. You are both arrogant and full of yourselves and try to explain obivious thing like if everyone else, except your precious self, are morr*ns. I explained very clearly, with logical arguments, why the parsing made with the LOTRO tool gives incorrect measures. You jump in this thread and begin your post with desagreeing with everything i said previously but repeat the exact same argument i used. Even 2 other posters came and sided with me to support my arguments. And im a troll? Get out of here dude.

Originally Posted by pibob314

There is a difference between saying that I disagree with you in principle because of your childish trolling attempts and what you've assumed I said. For the record, if you bothered to read my post instead of just jumping in to attack me, you'll realise that the people I was suggesting were being illogical were the people you were unsuccesfully trying to argue with.

Thanks for contredicting yourself within the same statement. ==> *I desagree with everything you say BUT ill side with you against your opponants because, well, i agree with you*. Its time for you to learn that arrogance is not a valid argument when debating in any forums.

Originally Posted by pibob314

The fundamental difference between what you have been saying and what I have been saying is that I have provided my points in a reasoned and mature manner. You provide no evidence, do not structure your points and simply bash and attack anyone who disagrees with you, even if they provide valid points for discussion and rebuttal. I stand by what I said at the beginning of my post, whilst we may have similar points to make, do not think for one second that I am "on your side". I don't side with trolls.

You dont side with trolls but you just said that you sided with me regarding the parsing thing. Man, you dont know what you are talking about. You are so desperate about trying to make a point against me that you keep contredicting yourself using an arrogant tone.

Originally Posted by pibob314

For the record, because you know so little, long, long before I started freeping, I was a creep. My first and main creep was a defiler, I know a little bit about how they work. I for sure was playing a defiler long before you were, and if there are still any vets playing on Meneldor, you should go and ask them about a defiler named Alkemist if you're interested in my CV. Long ago, I made posts ADVISING defilers on this server on how to 1v1 effectively. Posts that defilers such as Wyver and Ech may or may not remember which set them on the road to playing their defilers as 1v1 beasts.

Now the experience card,huh? I rolled my first defiler (Sykara) during the last days of SoA book 11 on Landroval and was grouping on a daily basis with Grizlark and Karkel. Im currently the second most experienced defiler on Landroval (behind Solis). Im beating you on that ground also. Sorry, try again.

Originally Posted by pibob314

Furthermore, in what part of my post was I claiming to be a healing expert anyway? I never mentioned anything about healing techniques or efficient rotations or anything like that.

Dude, you contredict yourself AGAIN!!! Are you sure you are not suffering from a split personnality disorder or something like that? Here, ill do you a favor and copy/paste what you asked me. See below.

Originally Posted by pibob314

For the record, because you know so little, long, long before I started freeping, I was a creep. My first and main creep was a defiler, I know a little bit about how they work. I for sure was playing a defiler long before you were, and if there are still any vets playing on Meneldor, you should go and ask them about a defiler named Alkemist if you're interested in my CV. Long ago, I made posts ADVISING defilers on this server on how to 1v1 effectively. Posts that defilers such as Wyver and Ech may or may not remember which set them on the road to playing their defilers as 1v1 beasts.

I dont understand why all this frustration against me. Maybe because we are debating about how to beat the Garnival and you are not a member of it? Its not my fault if Garny invite only the best of the best and you dont fit that critera.

Maybe if you beg on your knee before him? Or just be on your knee before him (*wink*)? Maybe hell let you in. You seems so desperate that it worth a try. Let me know how it went would you?

Originally Posted by pibob314

Simply put, there is no way Lukdirt can out-heal 1200dps of focus fire on a target. That's what we want to know. How much focus fire can an individual healer neutralise by themselves? The amount of healing they are giving to people who aren't being targetted is meaningless.

Challenge accepted:



And Before you guys start screaming at the 16 sec duration (not referring to you wulfy ) when you focus a creep how long will you stay on that target. more then 15 seconds before you give up and switch targets? I don't think so.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

Now the experience card,huh? I rolled my first defiler (Sykara) during the last days of SoA book 11 on Landroval and was grouping on a daily basis with Grizlark and Karkel. Im currently the second most experienced defiler on Landroval (behind Solis). Im beating you on that ground also. Sorry, try again.

Experience in this game doesn't mean anything.

EX:Budhorn

Originally Posted by shilow7

Experience in this game doesn't mean anything.

EX:Budhorn

Tell this to your friend Wulfy, not me. He brought this argument, i only answered it.

Originally Posted by shilow7

Challenge accepted:

And Before you guys start screaming at the 16 sec duration (not referring to you wulfy ) when you focus a creep how long will you stay on that target. more then 15 seconds before you give up and switch targets? I don't think so.

Props for continuing to parse.....

Not screaming ...but longer parses are done to help smooth out the effect of crits, and skill cooldowns. You could pop everything under the sun, be extremely power inefficient and get great numbers for a short period, but trail way off in a protracted fight. It also reduces the impact of heal spool ups before a parse starts. Its the same reason DPS parses aren't measured over a few seconds...I could pop seeking blades or aim and get some big early crits generating some huge DPS numbers over a very short period. I've hit 4.4k shocking words, followed by a 7.4K EC.....over a few seconds my DPS would look like several thousand which is technically correct in that short window...but not representative of my DPS over a longish group engagement.

To echo Wulf above, there are a ton of variables that can impact these numbers - keeping the tests simple and over longer periods reduces the variability and allows them to be more comparable. Ultimately you are looking at HPS vs DPS over similar time frames (with shorter time frames being even more variable and thus problematic for DPS parses with crits/devs/big skills).

Originally Posted by Olympic

And I will say it again, with respectful disagreement to those that think otherwise, you NEED your Reavers. An earlier post outlined the issues with FTP Reavers, good points were made. But creepside has always been at its weakest without "developed" Reavers. Quit telling new people to roll wargs

...that state of the Reaver is kinda depressing...love the class and prolly had the most fun on it. We used to regularly run raids with 6-8 WL and 12+ Reavers. The other night in raid of 17 we had 1 reaver (rank5) :/ Hope the glory days for that class return, but as the only free class the cynic in me says its unlikely...or at best currently: Not on the Roadmap!

Originally Posted by shilow7

Challenge accepted:
<1,195HPS Picture>

And Before you guys start screaming at the 16 sec duration (not referring to you wulfy ) when you focus a creep how long will you stay on that target. more then 15 seconds before you give up and switch targets? I don't think so.

Originally Posted by chrisCML

Props for continuing to parse.....
Not screaming ...but longer parses are done to help smooth out the effect of crits, and skill cooldowns.

1,195 single target HPS in 16 seconds is probably pretty accurate for an unmolested defiler, if not more.

Fungal Bloom (~600 Heal) and Fell Restoration (~2.5k Heal) (both decent inductions).

Then Spam the other two instant cast heals. They apply a minimal heal plus hots.

Go for 25 seconds and it will probably be a bit lower; Fell Restoration will be on cool down.

Combat wise, it's probably safe to assume you'll get off little to no inductions, i.e. only use an initial Fungal Bloom, then spam Fertile Slime and Fungal Spores. Unless GG wants to play nice and ignore the defiler.

Ok I'm going to try and address what you've said in a way that even you can understand.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

No im not just a troll. I can debate properly and logicly with anyone that worth it. Unfortunatly for you, both you and Needless dont fall into that category. You are both arrogant and full of yourselves and try to explain obivious thing like if everyone else, except your precious self, are morr*ns. I explained very clearly, with logical arguments, why the parsing made with the LOTRO tool gives incorrect measures. You jump in this thread and begin your post with desagreeing with everything i said previously but repeat the exact same argument i used. Even 2 other posters came and sided with me to support my arguments. And im a troll? Get out of here dude.

The worst kind of troll is the kind who don't realise they are doing it. At least when they do, it's kinda funny, but you're so deluded it's really sad. You have never demonstrated an ability to debate properly and logically (I'll get to an example later), rather, you make erratic and non-sensical points, then begin name-calling and belittling anyone who calls you up on it. If someone agrees with you, they are fine, upstanding people, but if they don't, they are unworthy, disrespectful and idiots. A normal person can have a debate or discussion in a civilised manner, you are incapable of this because you cannot accept anyones opinion, even if they back it up with evidence and logic.

Also let it be known, that no-one here is siding with you. They have an opinion on this matter, much like I do, which is similar to some of the things you have posted. For me, that is regrettable, but unavoidable. Are you really so big-headed and full of yourself that you think you are directly responsible for anyone who posts anything along the lines of what you have said? People can make up their own minds, form their own opinions, and I can tell you one thing, most people don't form their opinions based on the incoherent ramblings of a troll like yourself.

Thanks for contredicting yourself within the same statement. ==> *I desagree with everything you say BUT ill side with you against your opponants because, well, i agree with you*. Its time for you to learn that arrogance is not a valid argument when debating in any forums.


You dont side with trolls but you just said that you sided with me regarding the parsing thing. Man, you dont know what you are talking about. You are so desperate about trying to make a point against me that you keep contredicting yourself using an arrogant tone.

See, I still don't think you get it. I'm not siding with you, nor will I ever side with you about anything. Your name-calling, immaturity and general trolling has seen to that. I have opinions, which I am free to express. It just so happens that my opinion on this matter bares some resemblences to some of the things you have tried to express (unsuccesfully I might add). I included one sentence at the beginning of my first post on this matter, to explain to all others reading it, that my opinion is my own and nothing to do with anything you have said previously. Sorry that you took it so literally, it wasn't meant to upset you as much as it did. If it makes you feel any better, I will gladly remove that sentence, but I still stand by it. You are a troll, trolls are always wrong, even when they are right, they are wrong. It is the job of everyone else to tell the troll they are wrong so they can continue trolling. This is how they gather sustenance. I'm doing you a favour.

Now the experience card,huh? I rolled my first defiler (Sykara) during the last days of SoA book 11 on Landroval and was grouping on a daily basis with Grizlark and Karkel. Im currently the second most experienced defiler on Landroval (behind Solis). Im beating you on that ground also. Sorry, try again.

Do you even remember what you yourself write sometimes? I'm letting you know that I've played, for a considerable length of time, a creep healing class, because based on the names you are calling me, you did not seem to know that. That is understandable, not many people on this server know that. I'm not playing it as a card to get points to prove I am "more" right than someone else, I am simply informing you of something so that perhaps you will stop calling me names or at least call me something a little bit more accurate. Well done on all your experience by the way. Perhaps if you spent a fraction of the time spent on defiler learning a bit of manners as well a lot of time will have been saved for both of us.

Dude, you contredict yourself AGAIN!!! Are you sure you are not suffering from a split personnality disorder or something like that? Here, ill do you a favor and copy/paste what you asked me. See below.

So I understand now. This is the famous Biohazzard logic you have been talking about. I want to ask you a question and I want you to answer me honestly. Please, it's really important.

1)It begins with me talking about multi-target healing being a bad metric and my reasons for such.

2)You come back and amongst other things, claim that a) i'm a fake expert, b) i'm a self proclaimed healing expert

3)I counter points a) by explaining I do have quite a bit of defiler experience, and b) I never claimed to be a healing expert since my first post "1)" was nothing to do with actual healing, just logic and what is the best metric for healing analysis.

4)Now this is the best part. You use part 3a to form a counter point to part 3b. Brilliant logic there. Even though part 3b is a response to 2b, you managed to connect things in a way so disjointed, that I honestly think you think you made a good point there.

So here is my question: When you wrote your post, the part 2 one, about me being a self-proclaimed healing expert, could you honestly see into the future and know what I was going to write about my defiler experience in the following post? If that's the case, then I /bow to you.....

I dont understand why all this frustration against me. Maybe because we are debating about how to beat the Garnival and you are not a member of it? Its not my fault if Garny invite only the best of the best and you dont fit that critera.

Maybe if you beg on your knee before him? Or just be on your knee before him (*wink*)? Maybe hell let you in. You seems so desperate that it worth a try. Let me know how it went would you?

It doesn't surprise me that you don't understand something. You call people names, are rude, attack people who disagree with you even when they provide evidence and then use the most pathetic, ridiculous rebuttals when people call you out for it. All this and you don't even seem to register that you are doing it. It's that level of immaturity that illicits the kind of responses you get.

Oh and on that final garny group point (real mature btw), I'm sure that if I wanted to group with them, they'd have no problem with it. I prefer to solo, always have, always will. You prefer to hide behind Ploks lioncloth, and that's cool, you're free to play however you like.

SIDE NOTE: Garny group best of the best??? With Calennor on his champ??? trololol

So, would'nt a better way to measure a defilers SHPS (single target heals per second) be to enter a spar with another creep (defiler not grouped with anyone) and then spam as many heals as possible before the spar timer times out and let the combat anaylasis tool record that?? (Other creep not attaking you of coarse.)

Would'nt that properly measure your SHPS?? Or am I missing something??

You would be hard pressed to find a player w/ more class than Wulfhram. All around good chap and talented player to boot who certainly does not deserve the abuse of nonsensical, illogical creeps.

If he ever decides he does want to join the Garnival, we would love to find a home for him...always need more range ad carries.

I'm having some relative confusion, and I'm thinking some people are misunderstanding some things about freep healing the moors...

1. For those who say AoE healing is irrelavent, this is false.... Highly false... Majorly false.... completely false.... and as stated above, the reasons for this are:
A. AoE healing is often more useful to the group, single target HPS is a great measure, but due to lack of perfect focus by sides and AoE Damage skills, often times multiple target in your fellowship need to be healed at once.
B. Also at least for mini's the two biggest heals are AoE with CDs
C. If you are looking at brief parses (say to simulate singe target heals for counter focus fire in a fight", Fellowships Heart alone can "negate" massive amout of incoming damage while also keeping the rest of the group in tip-top form.
D. The AoE healing is where the largest disparity is, as I said above it will generate some absolutely insane burst heals (if critted) and stack with HoTs and Casting

2. For those who healing isn't imbalanced at alll, it is, I've seen now with pre-stacking HoTs defilers can maintan a higher HPS than I thought, but there still is a massive disparity especially when you factor in oh **** skills like FH, as the creeps have nothing to compare to it.

3. As for single target parsed healing, Lukdirt can put out just under 1200 in that sixteen second parse on himself, with an average heal of about 710 over 27 Heals for a total of 19155. Whereas My Mini(sorry the .3 difference, but I tried):



Just under 1800, average of about 978 over 30 Heals for a total 29,329.


Lukdirt Amlios Difference
HPS------1195---1798----603 (Mini)
Avreage--710----978-----268 (Mini)
Total ----19155--29329--10,174(Mini) <

So the single target burst heal of the mini shows that not only is the average heal much higher, but there is a massive disparity in the total healed.

As lovely as this heated tangent about healing is, the original post was looking to find ways to counter our group, the Garnival - a 6 man freep group that is most likely being engaged by more than 6 creeps.

Given that these strategies will ultimately require more than one healer, one creep healer's single target HPS is irrelevant on its own. We are simply incapable of focusing more than one target at once, unlike a raid, as our limited # of DPS personnel does not have that type of firepower. Therefore, all of the creep group's healers can concentrate heals on our current target (not very difficult to anticipate, as you have limited people in our group to target). Target any of our non-healers and you will instantly see who we are targeting (provided you have show target of target enabled).

SSD and I used to execute two target assists in raids. When the main target received a boon of healing, we rapidly swapped to another target I already had in the cross-hairs. This allowed for rapid damage swapping. It's effective.

With that information, anticipate who we are attacking. Yay -- the healing debacle is solved.

Next: out-sustain our DPS. This is achieved through a combination of heals, damage reduction...

**Side note: Bio, you post as if our group has a constant 90% DR. The only time a light armor class can approach that DR is with Shield of the Dunedain (5m CD). We run with a minimum of 3 light armor classes -- often 4 or 5. Note that a WL's 90% DR is on a 2min CD.**

...and combating our power. Another method of out-sustaining our DPS is to interrupt our ability to dish it out. Part of this is through the aforementioned power destruction. Part of it is through interruption of inductions. Part of it is by avoiding self-induced morale drains (sticky gourd).

--------
Another attempt at being constructive -- take what you will.

Armadillos - I'm telling you!



Still need laser beams fitted, of course.

Love & Hugs

Fluffy Hithy

Originally Posted by Baslin

As lovely as this heated tangent about healing is, the original post was looking to find ways to counter our group, the Garnival - a 6 man freep group that is most likely being engaged by more than 6 creeps.

yep.

The hps tangent is relevant in determining the number of healers required to nullify your DPS, and conversely the number of creep DPS to pressure your healers. Its further off topic, but the fact that freeps have higher DPS, AND higher HPS is the main mechanic that essentially requires creeps to have superior numbers in group/raid action (all this assuming competent play - which I know is rare-ish ) Add on top of this underlying mechanic all the other game mechanics that favor one side over the other (crits, aoe, cc, defensive cds etc) and the discrepancy is just magnified (or makes it that much easier to achieve), but its the new norm, and frankly unlikely to change.

Based on the rough numbers above, assuming its Defilers (not WLs whose heals are even lower) it looks like they would need at bare minimum 2 Defilers, and more likely 3 (accounting for harassment/less inductions and time not healing to debuff/flies etc).

On the assumption that your LM keeps debuffs on the creep DPS (likely with aoe/non-induction/long duration aspect of those skills) one mini could out heal 3 + creep DPS (if left unmolested). Double+ that number to account for cappy/RK heals on top of that and you are looking at 6+ creep DPS needed to start to apply serious pressure and require CDs to start being used.

^Thats getting to your 10ish creep count. More if your healers are WLs (worse healing), and if you want to add a spider for debuffs/drains (DPS contribution would be marginal) or if you split your DPS toons on multiple targets.

Originally Posted by chrisCML

I understand what you are saying. You don't understand me, and/or are failing to grasp logic for some reason. I'm not arguing with you about what CA captures....I'm arguing with you about what you SHOULD be measuring. Its a straight forward test - garbage in garbage out. You are generating HPS stats that are meaningless in the context we are discussing.

Then you can't grasp context...

You jumped into a discussion where someone had just said "there is something wrong with CA parses; they are not accurate" but yet you failed to grasp that my argument had zero to do with how to properly calculate for freep/creep balance, but only to explain what CA HPS parses show in specific response to that statement. Next time, get some context.

I'm done with you now.

Originally Posted by Baslin

**Side note: Bio, you post as if our group has a constant 90% DR. The only time a light armor class can approach that DR is with Shield of the Dunedain (5m CD). We run with a minimum of 3 light armor classes -- often 4 or 5. Note that a WL's 90% DR is on a 2min CD.**

It doesnt matter Baslin, because we (creeps) can focus fire on 1 target at the time. Anyway, my point was to prove you (Garnival) can reach a 90% damage reduction and it has been demonstrated. It doesnt matter if the average % is 75% or 85%, thats beside the point.

The core of the question is: How can a creep group/raid sustain enough DPS to inflict casulties inside the Garnival?

Given the amount of HPS/debuffs/CC/incombat rez/Oh Sh1t button at your disposal, the only way is to overwelm you with massive numbers (4+). Lol at anyone with *secret tactic that cannot be revealed*.

Originally Posted by Tophsho

You would be hard pressed to find a player w/ more class than Wulfhram. All around good chap and talented player to boot who certainly does not deserve the abuse of nonsensical, illogical creeps.

2 other posters came and support my argument about the HPS tool giving incorrect results. I linked to another thread about similar topic and my position is supported by some of the best healers in this game. So you can go fu*k yourself with you supposed nonsensical and illogical cr*p.

I therefore do maintain my previous statement about you: You are a morr*n that doesnt know what hes talking about.

There is an easy solution to this....

Those who have kept saying for months its easy for creeps to do the same thing to freeps, if only the creeps were better should make their video of it already. We have been waiting about 2+ months now and still no video. Wonder why that is. The only story we got was of the group in question wiping to less freeps (and not even good freeps) when on their creeps and without facing the npcs as well.

Post the video of how easy it is to beat a group of the caliber in question while on creeps or calm it down already. Cause until that happens, the rest of this is just BS being spewed.

Originally Posted by chrisCML

one mini could out heal 3 + creep DPS (if left unmolested)

I may add other replies to your post later, but I'm going to focus on the one, high-lighted issue.

To theory craft an encounter in which 1 healer in a group of 6 is left unmolested by an opponent of equal or greater numbers is a major problem.

Our group is polished. A group that avoids encounter fundamentals such as disrupting our healer or induction-DPS is going to lose unless they drastically outnumber us.

Originally Posted by gleowine

There is an easy solution to this....

Those who have kept saying for months its easy for creeps to do the same thing to freeps, if only the creeps were better should make their video of it already. We have been waiting about 2+ months now and still no video. Wonder why that is. The only story we got was of the group in question wiping to less freeps (and not even good freeps) when on their creeps and without facing the npcs as well.

Post the video of how easy it is to beat a group of the caliber in question while on creeps or calm it down already. Cause until that happens, the rest of this is just BS being spewed.

Where's the story of 'the group in question wiping to less freeps?'

Our group would humor a creep-side attempt. Who is the freep group stepping in for the 'Garnival'?

While the SHPS (single target heals per secnod) isn't the only key to defeating this group. It is part of the puzzle. If I can approximate your groups total DPS output. Then, I can approximate the numbers of healers that creeps will need to outlast you to the point of defeat. This is working off the assumption that creeps cant simply just use a group of all DPS's classes and simply burn you down one at a time.

This also helps me determine what size group will be needed.

And since no one answered above.

If I were to spar another creep and heal myself for the duration of the sparring timer would that give me an acurate SHPS using the pluggin parse program? (Assuming the defiler is not in a group and the other creep is not attacking.) Or am I missing something?

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

Then you can't grasp context...

You jumped into a discussion where someone had just said "there is something wrong with CA parses; they are not accurate" but yet you failed to grasp that my argument had zero to do with how to properly calculate for freep/creep balance, but only to explain what CA HPS parses show in specific response to that statement. Next time, get some context.

I'm done with you now.

RE: Context....

You responded to my post with this......

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

If that's true then defilers should heal with their single target heals only, and minstrels too, to get the parse you and Bio are looking for. FWIW, my two big heals are AE heals on long CDs. If they are not up when I am parsing, my numbers won't be hugely affected because the parse is still showing output, over time from the healer. Pretty damn simple. Your number will be influenced by:
- Interruptions
- Damage set-backs
- Mobility
- Traits or gear
- Skill rotation

The fact is this: If one doesn't even understand what they're measuring, it's impossible to make any comparisons. To me, Bio wants to measure his healing on a single target (which is weird considering his best heal is fellowship wide and on a very short CD). A HPS parse measures a healers healing output - which is ALL skill/rotation and gear/trait based - over the time period they are in combat with an enemy - via damage or healing a target who is in combat.

A person who puts out a good parse in PvP on a defiler has posted here with 1300 HPS in combat, whilst fighting this group of freeps. Yet, somehow that's no longer relevant because Bio can't replicate it? Not understanding what skills to use and when would probably account for a lot of that.

In addition, the correct single target parse for a 1500 HPS parse would not be 1500/6...it's 1500 HPS.

Which for "context" was you arguing that group wide heal parses are the relevant measure. I tried to illustrate the reason this was flawed with some easy numerical examples, which Baslin understood and you seemingly failed to. (props to Baslin for recognizing the issue/flaw in group parse numbers, and also giving some constructive ideas for counters). So I then deferred to Wulf, who echoed my sentiments leaving out the math.

Apologies if you misunderstood. Playing a mini in the moors these days may be dulling your mind (<---joke /no offence intended.....its a game!)

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

It doesnt matter Baslin, because we (creeps) can focus fire on 1 target at the time. Anyway, my point was to prove you (Garnival) can reach a 90% damage reduction and it has been demonstrated. It doesnt matter if the average % is 75% or 85%, thats beside the point.

The core of the question is: How can a creep group/raid sustain enough DPS to inflict casulties inside the Garnival?

Given the amount of HPS/debuffs/CC/incombat rez/Oh Sh1t button at your disposal, the only way is to overwelm you with massive numbers (4+). Lol at anyone with *secret tactic that cannot be revealed*.

We do not average 75-85% DR -- hardly. ANY freep OR creep can achieve 90% DR through Shield of the Dunedain or Field Promotion. Freeps: Once per 5min. Creeps: Once per 2min.

You can focus one target at a time, but you possess the capability to swap targets at will.

You only need to sustain HPS, not DPS. Once we are powerless, DPS will be left to conquer.

Originally Posted by FatherDamien

While the SHPS (single target heals per secnod) isn't the only key to defeating this group. It is part of the puzzle. If I can approximate your groups total DPS output. Then, I can approximate the numbers of healers that creeps will need to outlast you to the point of defeat. This is working off the assumption that creeps cant simply just use a group of all DPS's classes and simply burn you down one at a time.

This aslo helps me determine what size group will be needed.

And since no one answered above.

If I were to spar another creep and heal myself for the duration of the sparring timer would that give me an acurate SHPS using the pluggin parse program? (Assuming the defiler is not in a group and the other creep is not attacking.) Or am I missing something?

It would give a readout of your SHPS, sure.

What you need to determine is how long it takes for your theory-group to dry our power. With that total time calculated, you can then figure out how long you must sustain against our DPS. Once you add in our DPS (no idea how you plan to gather that), you can figure out some numbers.

Originally Posted by Baslin

You only need to sustain HPS, not DPS. Once we are powerless, DPS will be left to conquer.

You keep talking about power Baslin, but just as a reminder, creeps are using/lacking power too during extended fights. And unlike freeps, we dont have any mechanisms (except for power pots) to regain some, with the exception of defilers flies of course. But this is limited to the defiler itself and cannot be shared to other creeps.

@Fatherdamian ==>

HPS is not an issue while fighting the Garnival, me and another healer can do the job. The problem is the DPS. We cannot gather/sustain enough to burn down 1 target and this is the real problem. A standard Garnival fight can be resumed to a several minutes fighting with no casualties (except for greenies creeps if theres some in the raid), which is why i said previously that those Garnival encounter are boring andf are best to be avoided.

Originally Posted by whitefox1313

You keep talking about power Baslin, but just as a reminder, creeps are using/lacking power too during extended fights. And unlike freeps, we dont have any mechanisms (except for power pots) to regain some, with the exception of defilers flies of course. But this is limited to the defiler itself and cannot be shared to other creeps.

I'm quite familiar with the power demands of both sides.

I would wager a creep group can remove a 6-man freep group's power faster than they lose their own.

Originally Posted by Baslin

I may add other replies to your post later, but I'm going to focus on the one, high-lighted issue.

To theory craft an encounter in which 1 healer in a group of 6 is left unmolested by an opponent of equal or greater numbers is a major problem.

Our group is polished. A group that avoids encounter fundamentals such as disrupting our healer or induction-DPS is going to lose unless they drastically outnumber us.

For sure. I'm just throwing out baseline numbers that could then be dialed up/down depending on more specifics. I don't know your group so was assuming you had Min/RK both healing with Cappy as support heals (along with LM heal when appropriate). Lots of other variables cooldowns/bubbles etc that would give harassed healers some more room (both sides, though prolly freepside moreso). Having full time "harassers" on all your healers just adds to the numbers - or if you assume (rightly so) that harassed heals are less, you may be just swapping one needed creep "dps slot" for a harasser slot and not dramatically changing the headcount. They could try with a larger force then dial it down next encounter and see.

Not sure why there is the huge rally against your group. Sure it would be challenging to assemble a competent creep group (its pretty unattractive out there these days creepside) but long drawn out fights are way more fun then being steam rolling opposition or being steam rolled in 10 secs. /shrug. At least your only a fellow. Last raid opposition had 4 cappies, 2 healing RKs and 6 minis (not all heal)...+DPS....that was terrible :P