Thread: Monster Play sucks.

Reading this forum, it seems like I'm just going to restate the obvious, but at least my frustrations will be on record.

Monster Play sucks. It's borderline unplayable for several reasons, one of the core ones being a fundamentally flawed design.

1. It drops "green" (brand new) characters into hostile territory against heavily geared opposition. A Reaver with 9.5hp who deals 28dp per basic melee hit stands no chance against a Burglar with 9.7hp who deals 280dp per basic melee hit, and he sure as hell isn't going to be able to run away with, at best, 125% run speed.

"Let him beat you up again and again and again for weeks and weeks at a time while you slowly grind boring repeatable quests and you might be able to *equal* him" isn't an acceptable answer, even if you then assume the game IS balanced and that you CAN eventually equal them.

2. The progression system is absolutely terrible. It's slow, it's laborious, it's monotonous, it's clunky, it transfers all of the rewards to the END of the process.

While levelling up a Free Person character, you can "beat the grind" by getting lucky with loot drops, crafting some gear, getting quest rewards as milestones, etc. There is a sense of progress, and each step strengthens your character.
While levelling up a Monster, you're getting absolutely squat until you can afford to buy it yourself - and then instead of the prospect of the next piece being just around the corner you know you're right back to grinding square one. Buying a 400hp potion (2 basic melee hits from the aforementioned burglar) which can be used once a battle doesn't convey a significant benefit, let alone even give a placebo sense of progression when you can buy it from the Quartermaster vendor.

The developers were too lazy to design a true "monster campaign", but instead of making it "just PVP" and thus fair they've loaded all of the gearing-up PVE action into a tedious "Get your &&& handed to you in a PVP zone" mini-game.

3. It's a pay-to-win system that unfairly cripples the Monsters. Aside from the fact that class-composition on the moors is handicapped by charging for basic roles (healer, tanking, CC, ranged DPS, etc); if we are to (charitably) assume that a Monster with all their trait slots purchased and filled is "balanced" vs a geared and slotted Free Person, that means the F2P creeps on the moors are going to consistently be roughly 2/5ths the strength of everyone else.

This is exacerbated by the significantly slower rate of acquisition of Turbine Points while in the moors.

4. The Moor quests themselves are ridiculous, both in substance and execution.

It's ridiculous to have more than 40 quests (the limit in the quest log) available when they're: A. All repeatable quests anyway; B. Often requiring the same resources; and thus C. Indistinguishable from each other.

Rather than wasting my time getting 20 logs for the lumber camp, and 10 logs for the guy in TA; just make me get the goddamn 30 logs in one go and hand them to one guy! Nevermind the fact that there's *3 kinds of logs*, and that the *3 kinds of logs* are not only few and far-between, but under contention by every single creep in the moors.

The devs have intentionally designed a grind-based gameplay mode, and rather than finding ways to add variety - they've added pointless busy-work to try and disguise the laziness of the implementation.

How could it be improved?

Well, just to show I'm not just a whining negative nancy:

1&2. A beginning monster should be a match for a typical L75 freep character; the advancement should only be based around adding functionality and distinctiveness to the monsters, not "playing catch-up" to characters that have been months in advancement before they CHOOSE to engage in PVP.

At present the corruption system offers a good way of addressing this - with advantages (extra damage) being offset with penalties (less health, etc). However other mechanisms (such as class traits, rank upgrades, etc) offer "flat" bonuses which make PVP less about skill or adventure and more about "hurr durp, your character can't hurt me yet".

Remove the "audacity" nonsense and other crud and balance the stats fairly - a L75 Orc's axe to the face should hurt a leather armoured low HP class, irrespective of said orc's other skills, buffs, debuffs, etc.

Advancement should be limited to:
Corruption allowing you to "rebalance" your stats - rather than the current system of rank giving a flat bonus to them.
New Skills - that add greater functionality rather than adding raw firepower to the class.
Skill modifying class skills - that change the way various skills and abilities work
Special (Appearance and prestige) skills - that represent unique and defining abilities or characteristics that mark the various stages of advancement that are currently (and unfairly) gifted as flat damage / defence bonuses.

3. Rework the costing for monster play; charging for the classes and cosmetics is fine if a "green" monster can deal effective damage; charging for the slots which replace the benefits of equipment, etc, etc is just beyond the pale.

4. Simplify the questing system. Less, but better.

Instead of pulling classes away from the action into "grind in the woods" rubbish, concentrate them on attacking and defending objectives. The grindy PVE stuff should be "doing productive stuff when there's nothing else going on", not "something you've got to do before you can take part in stuff going on".

Increase the nodes for the resources that need to be collected (more logs in the wood); remove the limits on being able to repeat quests or else increase both the rewards and the success requirements; allow hobbits feet, elf ears, whatever to be turned in individually in whatever quantities you have as-and-when without needing a quest active (treat them like tokens that can be redeemed rather than quest-items).

No one plays creepside anymore, its to over populated.

Originally Posted by Ace42

1&2. A beginning monster should be a match for a typical L75 freep character; the advancement should only be based around adding functionality and distinctiveness to the monsters, not "playing catch-up" to characters that have been months in advancement before they CHOOSE to engage in PVP.

While I agree with your assessment at a basic level (i.e., that monsters are at a big disadvantage at low ranks), I don't think the answer is to get rid of the importance of rank advancement. You have to realize two things:
1. Monster play was always meant as a side game. It didn't have the development that the PvE side of the game had, thus why there are only 50 some quests for monsters to do endlessly. Annoying but you get used to it.
2. Freeps have a grind as well. It might be a slightly more interesting grind from level 1 to a geared-up 75 but it's no shorter a grind than getting a monster to a viable rank.

Basically you want to start out at the same level as people who have spent months or years ranking up their creep....this just isn't going to happen. Put the time in, find a decent tribe or some people to group with and you'll eventually get there.

Did you make another forum account just to post that?

Originally Posted by asearchforreason

While I agree with your assessment at a basic level (i.e., that monsters are at a big disadvantage at low ranks), I don't think the answer is to get rid of the importance of rank advancement. You have to realize two things:
1. Monster play was always meant as a side game. It didn't have the development that the PvE side of the game had, thus why there are only 50 some quests for monsters to do endlessly. Annoying but you get used to it.
2. Freeps have a grind as well. It might be a slightly more interesting grind from level 1 to a geared-up 75 but it's no shorter a grind than getting a monster to a viable rank.

Basically you want to start out at the same level as people who have spent months or years ranking up their creep....this just isn't going to happen. Put the time in, find a decent tribe or some people to group with and you'll eventually get there.

1. Yup, someone in beta said, "Hey, you have no PvP!", so they instituted PvMP...but does this mean it can't get attn as it has become very popular? The map is relatively the same for 5 years...added keeps. Quests haven't changed and now the rewards for quest is ridiculous.

2. This answer is not an answer. One can level a freep and be in decent gear, good enough to wipe greenies without a problem, in less than a month, this is fact, I've done it. To get to rank 6 or higher (r6 imho is a little low, more like r7 or r8) with full aud, skills and traits to even come close to being able to fight well, is much longer than a month (now, we assume the creep isn't going to be store bought). Yet, even if the creep is store bought on skills and traits, no aud or low aud, those skills and traits don't do much for you when you can be two shot (yes, two shot). Creeps must pay for everything with comms...we don't get "armour", we don't get special sparkly weapons; yes we get armour class and base damage, but it's nothing compared to a freep with a 2nd age and even draig armour coming out and facing greenies.

It would be nice if they would put some time and effort into PvMP and get rid of store bought junk, but it's a bussiness and the store won't go away, so I'll leave the store bought freep (yes creeps do it too, yet...) QQ alone. I don't think it's bad we creeps ask for just a little love but I don't think we'll ever see it. I still enjoy it and love the challenge of being the underdog, thus why I still play.

Originally Posted by Skydawg

2. This answer is not an answer. One can level a freep and be in decent gear, good enough to wipe greenies without a problem, in less than a month, this is fact, I've done it. To get to rank 6 or higher (r6 imho is a little low, more like r7 or r8) with full aud, skills and traits to even come close to being able to fight well, is much longer than a month (now, we assume the creep isn't going to be store bought). Yet, even if the creep is store bought on skills and traits, no aud or low aud, those skills and traits don't do much for you when you can be two shot (yes, two shot). Creeps must pay for everything with comms...we don't get "armour", we don't get special sparkly weapons; yes we get armour class and base damage, but it's nothing compared to a freep with a 2nd age and even draig armour coming out and facing greenies.

Disagree. It takes a comparable amount of time (actually probably even LESS) to get a creep to R6 as it does to get a freep to 75 with decent gear. I've recently leveled 2 freeps to 75 and 2 creeps to R7+ (and almost a 3rd for each). They take a similar amount of time but I'd rather do the creep grind again. That's a personal preference because I like PvP more than PvE.

I think that all thats needed is to turn back skillls/passives/traits to DP bought skills and leave audacity to comms. It worked fine all these years so there wasn't any real reason to change it.

Originally Posted by Notaforumguy007

I think that all thats needed is to turn back skillls/passives/traits to DP bought skills and leave audacity to comms. It worked fine all these years so there wasn't any real reason to change it.

LOL, of course there was a reason to change the system! Forcing ppl (especially new monster players) to buy skills from lotro store= more money for them

PS: I agree ofc, the previous system was much,much better. Less p2w is always good.

You have to think, leveling as a freep you never had to look out for random creeps randomly killing you, you were never not able to do quests because the keep wasn't yours, and you didn't have to do the same 60? quests again and again and again till you where high enough level to kill the 'weak' freeps much less solo a freep.
Yes I know as a warg I could solo some freeps at rank 2, but as a reaver I can't even think about it at rank 4.

Originally Posted by asearchforreason

2. Freeps have a grind as well. It might be a slightly more interesting grind from level 1 to a geared-up 75 but it's no shorter a grind than getting a monster to a viable rank.

SLIGHTLY more interesting? One's a game, the other's a chore. You seem to enjoy the creep grind; I think you're both insane, and thus in a significant minority. I am finding it to be unplayable.

Want me to spend the same time a Freep does into it? Limit them to Ered Luin and The Shire, remove all questing except for handing in Tasks or Slayer quests, remove quest rewards, loot, a butt-ton of skills, and make it so they only get character improvements for one level every 10; and then fill the zone with players 10 levels higher than them ganking them continually. Remove exploration, remove crafting, remove plot, remove any possible source of variety. Make them sit through THAT to L75 and then talk to me about how creeps should spend as much time getting viable as Freeps.

Alternatively, give them a glorious full campaign where they can get to max rank without any interference and are free to grind raids out, and let us get on with it.

Basically you want to start out at the same level as people who have spent months or years ranking up their creep

What I *want* is it to be fair; and if that means giving the creeps a buttload of back-campaign, crafting functionality, gear, loot, and content - I'd be down with that.

But as that is: A. Unnecessary; and B. So much work it's never going to happen - then I advocate the only practical alterntive.

And no, having a class that is lacking key abilities and isn't tailored to your own playstyle and preferences is not "the same level as people who have spent X amount of time doing whatever".

You seem to be operating under the delusion that PVP in an MMORPG should merely be a platform to bully people with whatever OP gear you've managed to assemble through patience, throwing your wallet about, whatever. Really, that is just a recipe for emptying servers and getting irritated people to complain on the forums like this.

So no, the a-symmetric nature of monster play is an express rejection of the assumption that a creep should have as much time spent on it as a freep to be able to go toe-to-toe in combat. To insist on this symmetry of effort is just childishness. Nobody forces a freep to go into the moors unprepared; all creeps are dropped into the moors unprepared. Flawed concept, and I pointed out the solution.

Originally Posted by Ace42

So no, the a-symmetric nature of monster play is an express rejection of the assumption that a creep should have as much time spent on it as a freep to be able to go toe-to-toe in combat. To insist on this symmetry of effort is just childishness. Nobody forces a freep to go into the moors unprepared; all creeps are dropped into the moors unprepared. Flawed concept, and I pointed out the solution.

Nobody is forcing you to roll a creep. If you want to PvE...if you want "back-campaign, crafting functionality, gear, loot, and content", roll a freep. If you want to PvP, roll a creep.

It's as simple as this: if they made rank 0 creeps equal to the average freep, no freep in their right mind would come to the Moors. It takes 5 seconds to create a rank 0 creep. It takes a month or two to create a well geared 75 freep. This vast difference in setup time is a recipe for a Moors with 10 creeps for every freep. Freeps are almost always outnumbered as it is and it's only the relative difference in individual strengths that keeps the fights reasonably even.

Rank your creep. It's really not that hard. Lots of people have done it before you.

Originally Posted by asearchforreason

Nobody is forcing you to roll a creep.

I made a lengthy point-by-point rebuttal; but then I thought "hell, no point in reasoning when the real issue is far more simple than the pragmatics of the game."

You went through a ton of pointless busy work? Well if you enjoyed it, good for you - if you didn't, sucks to be you. That's not a case for making other people go through it when it objectively sucks.

Judging by the posts in here (as well as the barren state of the moors) more and more people are not playing as creeps precisely because, if not forced, there's no good reason to other than masochism.

I'll avoid going into the massive detail I could so easily fall into with the refutation of your assertion:
Rank your creep. It's really not that hard. Lots of people have done it before you.

Ranking creeps is [slow], laborious, it's monotonous, it's clunky, - in short, boring. "You should be bored and suffer just so you can play without being screwed over" is asinine; and the fact that suckers have toughed it out is neither here nor there. More fool them.

Quite a bit of freep PvE is boring and grindy too. Collection quests, etc. When level cap was still 65, I had to run Grand Stairs like a billion trillion times for my armor. When I hit 75, I ran foundry a bunch for that armor. Neither quest is really fun. There are certainly fun quests in freep PvE but almost none of them have that much of an impact on levelling or gear collection, which is the point of the conversation here.

It took me about 6 months to level Avenging to 75, get his gear good enough to head out to the Moors, then 3 weeks or so to get to r6. It took me 2 weeks to get Rainbowsandflowers (my warg) to r6 with full audacity. I guess I could level new freeps faster if I just skirmed or something? But in the end that's just as much or more PvE grind as ranking a creep without even of the possibility of PvP. I actually much enjoyed creep PvE because I constantly got into fights while doing it. I died a lot but part of that is because I challenged every freep out there and learned by dying and I don't freak out about rating. Now I'm pretty good I gotta say and can hold my own against a lot of freeps. By the time I hit the high ranks I should be very good, especially when I learn to use interrupts better.

My champ is also considered one of the best on Silverlode and there are a couple from every creep class (except spiders) that are even or beat me (especially defilers). Not all of them are r10+ either. I still got a lot to learn about playing the different classes but the theme seems to be here if you can actually play your class you can do well in the Moors no matter what you play.

Originally Posted by asearchforreason

Rank your creep. It's really not that hard. Lots of people have done it before you.

Fine, get a ranked creep and fight a mi-

Oh wait. You have a minstrel. Never mind.

Originally Posted by Stevo6

Oh wait. You have a minstrel. Never mind.

Yes I know minstrels are OP. I'm not sure why that's pertinent. I don't PvP much with my mini...I prefer creepside which is why my incredibly OP reaver and WL are higher ranked than my mini.

Originally Posted by Ace42

system that unfairly cripples the Monsters.

I just wanna be a witness that A.bananaslug is BOSS on Slode.











That's all. Carry on...

Wonder how many PvMPers (esp. Creeps) preordered ROR, I mean like GW2 is just around the corner.

Originally Posted by StoneSpeak101

Wonder how many PvMPers (esp. Creeps) preordered ROR, I mean like GW2 is just around the corner.

I didn't, but I'm not getting GW2 either... my comp isn't fast enough. Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !

Originally Posted by avengingbananaslug

It took me about 6 months to level Avenging to 75, get his gear good enough to head out to the Moors, then 3 weeks or so to get to r6.

Note that "good enough for the moors" seems to be used rather dishonestly. "Good enough for the moors" is so that, depending on the class, you can roughly go toe-to-toe with a R0 Reaver; not "so you can feel confident of dicking over the vast majority of players out there".

Also note that having the luxury of doing a variety of PVE content (whether the path you particularly had to follow or not for high quality fear was dull / repetitive or not) makes for a much more rewarding experience that the truly terrible moors quests. For starters a 65% mounted speed trumps a 25% march rate.

But in the end that's just as much or more PvE grind as ranking a creep without even of the possibility of PvP.

I'd take that over "picking flowers in between ridiculous travel times" any day. At least the action is constant and the influx of rewards solid. Maybe you've hit on a compromise solution - give the creeps some simple skirmish PVE action to remove the mass amounts of BS from ranking up on the moors and see some of the arguments evaporate. Of course, it would also leave the moors largely empty of creeps, but meh.

I actually much enjoyed creep PvE because I constantly got into fights while doing it.

Fights it is technically impossible to win irrespective of either skill or luck? I refer you to my previous post - masochist.

I still got a lot to learn about playing the different classes but the theme seems to be here if you can actually play your class you can do well in the Moors no matter what you play.

What part of "actually playing your class" means you quit losing to people who can deal 10x your base damage? The boring PVE grind where you have to eat a &&&& sandwich for no valid reason other than "hey, we ate the &&&& sandwich, now it's your turn to take a bite"?

Appeal to tradition; and two-wrongs-make-a-right.

Originally Posted by Ace42

Note that "good enough for the moors" seems to be used rather dishonestly. "Good enough for the moors" is so that, depending on the class, you can roughly go toe-to-toe with a R0 Reaver; not "so you can feel confident of dicking over the vast majority of players out there".

Also note that having the luxury of doing a variety of PVE content (whether the path you particularly had to follow or not for high quality fear was dull / repetitive or not) makes for a much more rewarding experience that the truly terrible moors quests. For starters a 65% mounted speed trumps a 25% march rate.



I'd take that over "picking flowers in between ridiculous travel times" any day. At least the action is constant and the influx of rewards solid. Maybe you've hit on a compromise solution - give the creeps some simple skirmish PVE action to remove the mass amounts of BS from ranking up on the moors and see some of the arguments evaporate. Of course, it would also leave the moors largely empty of creeps, but meh.



Fights it is technically impossible to win irrespective of either skill or luck? I refer you to my previous post - masochist.



What part of "actually playing your class" means you quit losing to people who can deal 10x your base damage? The boring PVE grind where you have to eat a &&&& sandwich for no valid reason other than "hey, we ate the &&&& sandwich, now it's your turn to take a bite"?

Appeal to tradition; and two-wrongs-make-a-right.

I havne't really played since the lvl cap was 60, and then my wl could solo master elite drakes and delving. Now...I got two swings in on RK before I was dead. I did less than 10% dmg to a drake in the mines before I died. How is this better? we added 15-25 levels to have our relative strengh halved or quartered and then the idiots that haven't been here long think it's all ok? Sorry but this is completely effed up. You don't see people putting together commendation raids where before you'd run DP raids all the time because it had significance to both creeps and freeps, before you had to pvp to rank now you die while grinding infamy from quests? If anything the moors has taken huge steps away from pvp not making it more accessible at all. Sorry but every expansion seems to make the part of the game I most enjoyed weaker and weaker.

Originally Posted by KajinSavaros

You have to think, leveling as a freep you never had to look out for random creeps randomly killing you, you were never not able to do quests because the keep wasn't yours, and you didn't have to do the same 60? quests again and again and again till you where high enough level to kill the 'weak' freeps much less solo a freep.
Yes I know as a warg I could solo some freeps at rank 2, but as a reaver I can't even think about it at rank 4.

For a peculiar reason, staunch freep supporters ( aka ppl wearing freep-goggles, for the most part) always disregard this CRUCIAL factor concerning the overall balance and gameplay entertainment between the two factions. + Rep, sir.

Originally Posted by avengingbananaslug

It took me about 6 months to level Avenging to 75, get his gear good enough to head out to the Moors, then 3 weeks or so to get to r6.

It took me about 2 mths to level up my champ to 75 (while still playing my captain main) get him the best gear possible, 14 pieces of audacity gear and get him to rank 8 all the while running around with more stun/root/morale/power/fear pots than I'll ever use.

In other words, just because it took you a long time, doesn't mean that's the norm.

Originally Posted by StoneSpeak101

Wonder how many PvMPers (esp. Creeps) preordered ROR, I mean like GW2 is just around the corner.

Not buying RoR here. Already bought GW2. If RoR was about 20-30$... I might have thought about it. Not a chance with its current pricing.

Originally Posted by Jassiminn

Not buying RoR here. Already bought GW2. If RoR was about 20-30$... I might have thought about it. Not a chance with its current pricing.

Yep, I'm not buying RoR either. Waiting for GW2 around mid-August before it goes live.

qq theres too much pve in the moors

qq freeps have variety of pve why dont we have that on creepside

so you guys want more pve? i thought you guys wanted less pve. Man I'm confused.