Thread: Stop Burglar Stacking from being a viable Strategy please

Originally Posted by Yosoff

This is where you lose all credibility. People want to raid on their main toons and very few people have burgs as their mains. Broken content forces people to switch to alts and they lose out on deeds, gear, and hard to get titles for their mains. Over the years people have called for hunter nerfs & RK nerfs & LM nerfs & champ nerfs, then we get to the next raid and it's some other class that needs to be nerfed and the old popular class is suddenly unwanted.

The problem isn't the classes, the problem is the content.

Nope, that was where you lost all credibility. My kinship has at about 5 main burglars and as long as they get the job done (which they do), we're happy to bring them along.

You can't speak on behalf on all raiding kinship as you did in your previous post and use it as a argument in a discussion.

The problem is just as much the classes as it is the content - they wouldnt need to change Thorog nor Acid to have morale based triggers if they just removed debuff stacking. Then they'd just have to fix Fire and Frost.

Originally Posted by YesMaam

Lets say an average group:
LM / Guard x2 / Mini x2 / Burg x2 / Huntx2 / Champ x1 / Capt x2

Honestly whether the math cannot be conducted or not, if your group cannot sustain 2.8k DPS (closer to 2.3k with off dps class help) for 60 seconds with to arms and multiple oathies with 2 burgs then I'm shocked.

If it was so easy that you are shocked that an average raid can't pull that off with only 2 Burgs, how comes that not a single raid (not even the world's top raids) have yet beaten it with only 2 Burgs? Like easily?

You act as if mutliple oathies means that oathies are up whole the time (where in fact "multiple means exactly 2; that makes 20 secs) and as if all of your DDs get to arms, where in fact only 2 out of your 5 DPS classes will take the full benefit of to arms (and to arms also doesn't last the whole 60 seconds). Just because THE top DPSer (with full DPS support) of your raid is able to pull that off, doesn't mean that there are 4 people next to him doing the same.

Originally Posted by YesMaam

I've parsed 2.6k in shadow boss on my hunter in a 5 minute fight while having to move and kill adds that do not have marks. I fail to see how I can't parse 4k similar to acid in a 60 second blast of 2 oathies.

Here you go. If all of your DPSers were roughly doing the same DPS as you, the fight wouldn't even last 4 Minutes. So you tell me that all of your DPSers are able to sustain 2.8k+ DPS for a minute, all at the same time? (maybe each of them was able to pull that off, if they all were blade-brothered, but you cannot blade-brother more than 2 of them simultanously).

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

My kinship has at about 5 main burglars and as long as they get the job done (which they do), we're happy to bring them along.

You can't speak on behalf on all raiding kinship as you did in your previous post and use it as a argument in a discussion.

That's an unusual proportion of burg mains, and I suspect you know that. I was speaking in generalities that burgs are not a common main toon. There have been several posts reviewing class distributions across servers and burgs are always near the bottom. I stand solidly behind every word I said and never claimed to be talking for all raiding kinships. That's just a bogus strawman argument because you don't like being proven wrong.

Originally Posted by Yosoff

That's an unusual proportion of burg mains, and I suspect you know that. I was speaking in generalities that burgs are not a common main toon. There have been several posts reviewing class distributions across servers and burgs are always near the bottom. I stand solidly behind every word I said and never claimed to be talking for all raiding kinships. That's just a bogus strawman argument because you don't like being proven wrong.

How does class distribution relate to the amount of mains? I know many people who got e.g. hunter, champ and minstrel as lvl 75 alts, at least loads more than I know people with lvl 75 burglar alts.

I cant speak on behalf of other kinships, I dont know their class setups compared to my kinship, I just know you're wrong if you speak on behalf of all kinship - as you say you're not, I dont see a problem.

Wow, what a bunch of whiners!

Need we recap how burgs have been treated for the last couple years? Since MoM, the need/benefits of bringing a burg have steadily declined, to the point that during the time spent with OD why bother bringing a burg unless you just needed to fill the spot? No-one wanted a burg for anything when they could take an extra DPS class like a hunter or a champ, or a LM for more crowd control and debuffs then the burg has...

So the burg is currently getting a little bit of extra kick with Draigoch and 2 wings of ToO, don't fret, come RoR they'll be trying to figure out where they can fit into a fellowship again, it gets really hard to to sneak up on something while on horseback... Mounted archers and the long reach of a champions greatsword will have the burglars picking their teeth with their daggers again.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

I dont see a problem.

The problem is that you're calling for a class nerf based on your over-burged kin. MOST raiding kins don't have 1/3 of the players running with burg mains. If the content wasn't broken, they could take their normal group of mains and burg stacking would not be an issue because they wouldn't want to do it and they wouldn't need to do it.

The problem is the content, not the classes; so stop trying to get a class nerfed based off of 1-2 poorly balanced fights. Class nerfs should be avoided and only done as a last resort; otherwise we'll end up with a bunch of gimped characters that are faded shadows of their former glory. Out of all classes, a hunter should know better. And now that you've switched your signature to a warden... a warden should know better too.

Originally Posted by Yosoff

The problem is that you're calling for a class nerf based on your over-burged kin. MOST raiding kins don't have 1/3 of the players running with burg mains. If the content wasn't broken, they could take their normal group of mains and burg stacking would not be an issue because they wouldn't want to do it and they wouldn't need to do it.

The problem is the content, not the classes; so stop trying to get a class nerfed based off of 1-2 poorly balanced fights. Class nerfs should be avoided and only done as a last resort; otherwise we'll end up with a bunch of gimped characters that are faded shadows of their former glory. Out of all classes, a hunter should know better. And now that you've switched your signature to a warden... a warden should know better too.

It's not based on my kin, as stated in the OP, it's based on the fact that Burglar Stacking allows you to avoid game mechanics rather than doing the fights correctly, no other stack allows that.
I say Burglars are at a point where they do more single target DPS than any of the DPS classes and they're not supposed to do so. Therefore I call for a nerf rather than buffing RKs, Hunters and Champs as that would take 3 times the amount of work.

Why should a Hunter know better? I dont think Hunters have it worse than Champions and RKs have it.
Wardens had several mechanics broken and in need of fixing, Burglars got one perhaps two that need a nerf, you cannot compare those class problems as the magnitude is much different.

Originally Posted by Yosoff

The problem is that you're calling for a class nerf based on your over-burged kin. MOST raiding kins don't have 1/3 of the players running with burg mains. If the content wasn't broken, they could take their normal group of mains and burg stacking would not be an issue because they wouldn't want to do it and they wouldn't need to do it.

The problem is the content, not the classes; so stop trying to get a class nerfed based off of 1-2 poorly balanced fights. Class nerfs should be avoided and only done as a last resort; otherwise we'll end up with a bunch of gimped characters that are faded shadows of their former glory. Out of all classes, a hunter should know better. And now that you've switched your signature to a warden... a warden should know better too.

As a person playing a class that was hit with a -30% incoming healing nerf for reasons that had nothing to do with the class itself (instance bosses that didn't hit hard enough to warrant bringing a Guardian being the main one), I have to agree.

Originally Posted by Lestache

As a person playing a class that was hit with a -30% incoming healing nerf for reasons that had nothing to do with the class itself (instance bosses that didn't hit hard enough to warrant bringing a Guardian being the main one), I have to agree.

There's still a difference from a nerf like the -30% inc healing that is a nerf affecting you whether you're soloing, PvMP'ing or grouping and e.g. removing debuff stacking which afaik is only used when raiding or roflstomping dragons or turtles.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

it's based on the fact that Burglar Stacking allows you to avoid game mechanics rather than doing the fights correctly

Ummmm, if doing the fights correctly without Burglar stacking is impossible, and Burglar stacking is undesirable, then the only plausible solution would be to fix the content. Nerfing Burgs now makes the content never possible as opposed to "possible with burg stacking."

And I agree with Thunder. I mained a Champ for 4 years. The inc. heal nerf era was a discouraging time to be a champ. Nerfing a class to suit specific content is obnoxious.

Originally Posted by Doulos

And I agree with Thunder. I mained a Champ for 4 years. The inc. heal nerf era was a discouraging time to be a champ. Nerfing a class to suit specific content is obnoxious.

I think, regardless of content, game design should encourage class diversity and discourage stacking for group activities in order to give each class a reasonable chance to meaningfully participate. That means, IMHO, that powerful debuffs, which give raid-wide effects, should simply not stack. 10% incoming damage applied raid wide is a hugely powerful, comparable to adding an "average" additional character doing DPS to the raid. Most such effects don't stack, really really unclear to me why RW should do so.

If Burgs need some compensating buff to avoid being nerfed by RW being made non-stackable (or getting further diminishing returns), so be it. If they need to get more debuff on the way to 85 so additional burgs have different debuffs to use, great!

I must say that I love how all of the folks trolling the OP in this thread completely skipped over the quote that he gave from ZC. I believe that ZC's quote is pretty clear evidence that Turbine does NOT want burgs to be out-dps'ing DPS classes. The fact is that in MOST of the fights in Orthanc burgs do, in fact, out-DPS hunters, champs, and RKs, and that's even before you consider RW and CD. Burgs parse higher in lightning, f&f, acid, and shadow (though here it is less of an issue because other DD classes are scoring lower due to add duty). In fact, the ONLY fight in Orthanc that does not allow burgs to be the top DPS class is Saruman, and this is largely due to AoE.

Turbine (in ZC's post) states clearly that they do not want burgs to be top DPS, yet they clearly are in 3/5 fights in Orthanc, with an at least equal performance in shadow wing as well. Something has to give - either Turbine needs to clarify that they think that burgs should be equal or higher dps to DPS classes, or burg DPS needs to be reduced to a level commensurate with ZC's comments.

Of course, it really doesn't matter, and there is no way that Turbine is going to do anything with RoR right around the corner. That said, I do hope that with RoR Turbine does a better job of sticking to their stated design philosophy so that "pure" DPS classes don't get left out of raids.

Okay just one thing to all - considering both sides have accused people of:

trolling the thread

(too many to quote )

If you're going to have a reasonable and calculated debate - you have to understand that having a differing opinion =/= trolling. Certainly in my own post I don't think I was trolling, nor do I think Bond007 was trolling, despite us (I think) being on "opposing sides" as it were.

That said, to dear Bond007. Admittedly I don't have much of a leg to stand on regarding the RK verses Burg matter, just the hunter verses burg. While I'd love to say "disregarding set bonuses - here is a plain fact" I obviously can't do that seeing the thread has gone beyond the original:

"Here are a few good suggestions RE: the fixing of the apparent problem, which including fixing the content rather than necessarily the classes specifically" (it was not clear in the OP whether only 1 needed to be done of the 4, multiple, or all 4 - I imagine the purpose was merely to give ideas as to how things could be fixed up).

to

"Burglars do need to be changed - definitely - regardless of any fixes to the content RE: Orthanc".

Despite a very odd situation wherein the only 'ease' of which burglar stacking allows is...ultimately just a different strategy, with a chance of failure if not implemented properly. By now the groups that spear-headed the Acid T2 Challenge burg stacking method will be able to do this in their sleep (for farming First Ages), but then the same can be said for a regular group make up of said people doing Lightning T2 Challenge. So clearly the problem is not about "making the content trivial", as we are also yet to see the more 'non-trivial' Shadow and Saruman T2 / T2 Challenges being completed (with relative ease by comparison to a normal group make-up) by way of burglar stacking.
This is NOT:
Burglar stacking would not work for Shadow / Saruman.
This is:
Burglar stacking would not, in my opinion, make Shadow / Saruman easier than with a regular group make up. At best in Shadow - more stuff could be mez'ed / chain mez'ed - thereby allowing more time on the boss. At best in Saruman - you can put down more clones in the final phase, allowing for...I guess ~35s of uninterrupted time on the first 1 or 2 clones.

I suppose the difficulty I have with the thread and tune as a whole, is grounding (for lack of a better word). The reality of our current end game raid is that only 2 of 5 of the boss fights in Orthanc benefit in a different manner to the 'normal' way and only 1 of them is by necessity. However the reality, the actual factual REALITY of Orthanc as a whole is that it is not constantly being beaten by a group burglar stacking each and every fight in which it is possible.
The actual reality is that burglar stacking is NOT as rife as this thread would make it out to be via the rather flustered and worried tone it sets.
I would concede that for the special server title (complete all challenges in 1 day), they would keep on as many burglars as is feasible, if only so they would benefit from the title - having been NECESSARY for the F&F Challenge. An option which they would rather side line if it meant getting their regular balanced group in for the entire thing. I will happily concede also that I may be wrong in speaking for many raid groups on this point - thus I put forth the notion: show me a group who WANTS to have many members - aiming for this title - to switch out to burglars for a single fight and thereby miss out on the title should they be needed on other toons for most of the rest of Orthanc.

"Don't speak for everyone" is all well and good, but to date as a counter point has not been made to a logical reason behind WHY they may not want to employ these methods. I welcome a counter point, but "don't speak for everyone" is not actually a valid one until a group comes forward and says so.
(note - a possible counter point - "we don't care just as long as we can claim to do it" - reasonable enough. Would likely also come from a group that has no strong opinion or care for the burglar stacking matter).

As for the overall matter of looking at set bonuses, stacking buffs etc - over the entire game I would agree. Currently that mostly affects burglars and I definitely was among the manner whose eyes bulged out from their skulls when they saw a hypothetical +20% dev crit chance bonus...let alone it actually becoming a reality. I love some OP set bonuses let me tell you, but that is just...beyond anything I have ever seen.

I would like to see a gradual graded look at these matters, presuming it is something Turbine would want to look at. It may well be that it was intended that many debuffs / buffs did not stack, but for reason burglars were allowed to keep it - perhaps to offset...something else, I am really not sure.

One final thing must be mentioned: It DEFINITELY would need to be changed if ever Turbine made content for raiding situations, in the knowledge that one strong method may be burglar stacking as a ways of trivialising content. I do not believe burglar stacking HAS made it trivial yet. It is plain to see that the most difficult raid currently does not require, nor even allows for it in certain situations.
However if DPS requirements ever DID get based on this method - well I'd rather that never happen in the first place and they look at either changes to the class, or better yet - make sure their content cannot be circumvented by this occasionally utilised method.

Originally Posted by Ultiheart

Okay just one thing to all - considering both sides have accused people of:

(too many to quote )

If you're going to have a reasonable and calculated debate - you have to understand that having a differing opinion =/= trolling. Certainly in my own post I don't think I was trolling, nor do I think Bond007 was trolling, despite us (I think) being on "opposing sides" as it were.

I appreciate what you are saying, and of course you are correct - not everyone who has disagreed with the OP has been trolling. That said, I don't think it an unfair characterization at all of some of the posts that I have read here (in particular the lovely post with a picture of some dolt and text under it saying "wants to nerf burglars - can't play hunter" or some such nonsense).

What I find interesting about this thread though is how many people agree that the Unseen set bonus is completely OP for PvE - it seems like there is at least pretty close to a consensus on this one point.

Originally Posted by mmdur1

Turbine (in ZC's post) states clearly that they do not want burgs to be top DPS, yet they clearly are in 3/5 fights in Orthanc, with an at least equal performance in shadow wing as well. Something has to give - either Turbine needs to clarify that they think that burgs should be equal or higher dps to DPS classes, or burg DPS needs to be reduced to a level commensurate with ZC's comments.

However, you still aren't looking at this, the issue isn't Burg's as TOP DPS, because they aren't. Don't get me wrong, my burg can dish it out, but sustained DPS is around 1.2-1.5k in raid gear solo on a single target. Hunter solo DPS on a single target in raid gear is 2k+.

The issue is really the stacking of reveal weakness and inc crit/devastate chance. Please note, these are available to the other classes in the raid as well. So yes, while the burgs are parsing a lot higher then normal, parse a hunter in the same raid, he will still be outdpsing the burgs as he is getting the bonuses from the burgs debuffs as well. So if there are 5 burgs in the raid giving +50% incoming damage +30% crit chance +whatever dev chance. The other classes are also benefiting from it and that hunter's DPS of 2k goes WAY up.

I would agree to a cap on the number of debuffs of a single type. So that we couldn't drop 5 reveal weaknesses on a mob for +50% incoming damage... Maybe to 3... But I think this should be applied across the board, so that there is also a cap of 3 rends, or 3 barbed arrows on a single target.

Originally Posted by Ultiheart

I would concede that for the special server title (complete all challenges in 1 day), they would keep on as many burglars as is feasible, if only so they would benefit from the title - having been NECESSARY for the F&F Challenge. An option which they would rather side line if it meant getting their regular balanced group in for the entire thing. I will happily concede also that I may be wrong in speaking for many raid groups on this point - thus I put forth the notion: show me a group who WANTS to have many members - aiming for this title - to switch out to burglars for a single fight and thereby miss out on the title should they be needed on other toons for most of the rest of Orthanc.

The title only goes to those that were there for the Saruman Challenge clear at the end of the night. One does not have to be on the same toon the whole night (nor even present for any of the fights other than Saruman), so switching in Burgs and then switching them back out doesn't really prevent anyone from getting the title.

Originally Posted by Jullandar

I'm surprised people are actually arguing over this. Stackable burg marks are probably the single most OP thing in the game and has been for a long time. AFAIK there is not a single debuff from other classes that stack like that.

We are not arguing to nerf burgs, just that their marks would be fixed to comply with common sense and the rest of the game.

A second and 3rd burg would still be useful (although not mandatory) if they realize they can use different tricks on the target. It would also be wonderful if Reveal Weakness would have different effects depending on the burglar's stance. "A red, blue and yellow burg walked into the bar..."

By the same logic, we could petition for captain marks and LM debuffs to be stackable. Only game mechanics would become even more out of whack after that.

I have a capped burg that I bring to T2 raids, so I am biased toward not nerfing us. That said, I completely agree with this post and others who have echoed it. No LM debuffs stack -- if they did, stacked LMs could really wreck a lot of content.

Really, the most sensible thing is to remove the stacking of RW and CD, or at a minimum, having them give diminishing returns (i.e. 10% for 1 burg, 12% for 2 burgs or whatever). Of course, many of the ToO raids need to be fixed. There's no doubt about that. Yet, not fixing RW/CD would mean similar issues for future raids.

Ultiheart I agree that the thread has changed somewhat. My PoV is pretty much that I think Burglars are in a ok-ish spot if one of the four suggestions are implemented, but I still think they're doing a bit too much DPS to be considered a secondary DPS class (which is what the Devs seem to do). I'd prefer that the Unseen set is nerfed and that debuff stacking is banned and I've defended that quite a lot as you can see, but I know I might be wrong here and nerf Burglars too much.

I've always viewed Burglars as a support class that could bring for cc, debuffs and a bit of DPS, not as a class you bring for cc, debuffs and pretty damn good DPS, and that's where I think they're right now.

Originally Posted by mmdur1

What I find interesting about this thread though is how many people agree that the Unseen set bonus is completely OP for PvE - it seems like there is at least pretty close to a consensus on this one point.

I think this is because Burglars were in a decent spot before U6, and the Unseen set is without doubt miles beyond any other QK set (not that there are many of them but still). 20% extra dev is pretty much 20-30% extra DPS output because of having the Quiet Knife buff with extra positional dmg and crit multiplier and easily makes up for the stats lost due to Audacity and gives a solid DPS boost.

Originally Posted by Kril

However, you still aren't looking at this, the issue isn't Burg's as TOP DPS, because they aren't. Don't get me wrong, my burg can dish it out, but sustained DPS is around 1.2-1.5k in raid gear solo on a single target. Hunter solo DPS on a single target in raid gear is 2k+.

The issue is really the stacking of reveal weakness and inc crit/devastate chance. Please note, these are available to the other classes in the raid as well. So yes, while the burgs are parsing a lot higher then normal, parse a hunter in the same raid, he will still be outdpsing the burgs as he is getting the bonuses from the burgs debuffs as well. So if there are 5 burgs in the raid giving +50% incoming damage +30% crit chance +whatever dev chance. The other classes are also benefiting from it and that hunter's DPS of 2k goes WAY up.

I would agree to a cap on the number of debuffs of a single type. So that we couldn't drop 5 reveal weaknesses on a mob for +50% incoming damage... Maybe to 3... But I think this should be applied across the board, so that there is also a cap of 3 rends, or 3 barbed arrows on a single target.

I'm not sure how we can approach this problem about whether Burglar DPS is higher than Hunter DPS or not. It obviously depends on the fight and I cannot say for sure that Burglar DPS actually is OP, but I really think it is.

Burglars can reach well beyond 1.5k DPS: http://s1.directupload.net/images/120404/nbkyyr5s.jpg

Having the DPS go WAY up for a Hunter, Champion or Rune-keeper is not as good as it sounds. Sure, we want to do as much DPS as possible, but we can only handle aggro for so much DPS, the 3.5-4.2k DPS reported by some Burglars is IMO way above what the DPS classes can do while managing aggro.

Capping the number of debuffs is probably ok, but I'm not sure where to put the limit and how to explain that limit. I'd rather see additional types of Reveal, e.g.
1. Reveal Strengths for -x% outgoing damage or +x% attack duration or miss chance,
2. Reveal Opportunities for +x% incoming dev or crit
3. Reveal Intentions for -x Finesse on target
and then stop debuffs from stacking.
Then each Burglar up to 4 can apply each of the Reveals and CD/Disable/Dust (and Enrage for trolololo).

It's asinine to compare with LMs and captains.

A single RK can maintain 1 Fall to Our Wrath permanently, and up to 2 FtOWs 20% of time. FtOWs from multiple RKs stack just as well. Vertical debuff stacking is not unique to burglars. The debuff magnitude of FtOW is lesser than burg debuffs, but RKs are compensated with other group utilities that burglars do not have.

A single LM, even traited DPS, can maintain 6+ debuffs permanently on multiple targets, and, traited debuff, 10+ debuffs permanently on multiple targets. A single burglar, traited DPS, can only maintain exactly 2 debuffs permanently, and for the most part, just on 1 target, unless you keep tabbing through to apply tricks, which then cuts into DPS. LM debuffs stack horizontally and (some, not even all) burglar debuffs stack vertically, both are class features and working as intended to accentuate class flavours. You need 5 burglars to stack as many debuffs as 1 single LM, and even then, not even on as many targets.

Captains are primarily buffers, and a single captain can maintain 7 (at least, not sure if I forgot any) buffs permanently, 1 mark permanently, as well as a few others short durations buffs/debuffs like To Arms and OB. Burglars have no permanent group buffs, and the only short duration group buff is that useless signal clickie.

When you keep harping on the stackability of burg debuffs alone, but ignore all the other group utilities that other support or DPS classes bring, you quite plainly have a myopic view on the overall issue of class balance and fairness, or you don't actually play a burg and are unaware of the class's deficiencies.

Because, seriously, what else can a burg do in a boss fight if not trick+RW+DPS (and chain mez mezzable adds if there are adds, and CJ on stun-able things if group is willing to contribute)?

Can a burg reliably restore power/morale in a boss fight with no CJ targets? Can a burg remove afflictions efficiently? Can a burg rez? Can a burg provide additional mitigation support (most notably IHW/LS and DNFtX)? Can a burg cure stun? Can a burglar help with aggro management on a raid level (i.e. Ebbing Ire)? Can a burg reliably off-tank/kite? Can a burg mow down multiple add spawns quickly? Etc? The variety of things a burglar can do in a boss fight and as a support class is extremely limited, and the kind of DPS a burglar can do as a DPS class is limited to just positional single-target DPS. It is all fair on the grand scheme of things.



The hunter class has its own issues and those are problems of the hunter class, not the burglar.



Regardless of your class, if you cannot go all out on DPS in a DPS race, your champs and guards don't know what they are doing. Fact. HIPS is a situational aggro wipe that does not benefit the raid: it only protects the burglar from bad guards, and only works if the burglar does not need to maintain Mischief.



Some of the PVMP armour sets (notably captain's and burglar's) do need to go away, but only because PVP should not have impact on PVE like that.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

It's asinine to compare with LMs and captains.

A single RK can maintain 1 Fall to Our Wrath permanently, and up to 2 FtOWs 20% of time. FtOWs from multiple RKs stack just as well. Vertical debuff stacking is not unique to burglars. The debuff magnitude of FtOW is lesser than burg debuffs, but RKs are compensated with other group utilities that burglars do not have.

A single LM, even traited DPS, can maintain 6+ debuffs permanently on multiple targets, and, traited debuff, 10+ debuffs permanently on multiple targets. A single burglar, traited DPS, can only maintain exactly 2 debuffs permanently, and for the most part, just on 1 target, unless you keep tabbing through to apply tricks, which then cuts into DPS. LM debuffs stack horizontally and (some, not even all) burglar debuffs stack vertically, both are class features and working as intended to accentuate class flavours. You need 5 burglars to stack as many debuffs as 1 single LM, and even then, not even on as many targets.

Captains are primarily buffers, and a single captain can maintain 7 (at least, not sure if I forgot any) buffs permanently, 1 mark permanently, as well as a few others short durations buffs/debuffs like To Arms and OB. Burglars have no permanent group buffs, and the only short duration group buff is that useless signal clickie.

When you keep harping on the stackability of burg debuffs alone, but ignore all the other group utilities that other support or DPS classes bring, you quite plainly have a myopic view on the overall issue of class balance and fairness, or you don't actually play a burg and are unaware of the class's deficiencies.

Because, seriously, what else can a burg do in a boss fight if not trick+RW+DPS (and chain mez mezzable adds if there are adds, and CJ on stun-able things if group is willing to contribute)?

Can a burg reliably restore power/morale in a boss fight with no CJ targets? Can a burg remove afflictions efficiently? Can a burg rez? Can a burg provide additional mitigation support (most notably IHW/LS and DNFtX)? Can a burg cure stun? Can a burglar help with aggro management on a raid level (i.e. Ebbing Ire)? Can a burg reliably off-tank/kite? Can a burg mow down multiple add spawns quickly? Etc? The variety of things a burglar can do in a boss fight and as a support class is extremely limited, and the kind of DPS a burglar can do as a DPS class is limited to just positional single-target DPS. It is all fair on the grand scheme of things.



The hunter class has its own issues and those are problems of the hunter class, not the burglar.



Regardless of your class, if you cannot go all out on DPS in a DPS race, your champs and guards don't know what they are doing. Fact. HIPS is a situational aggro wipe that does not benefit the raid: it only protects the burglar from bad guards, and only works if the burglar does not need to maintain Mischief.



Some of the PVMP armour sets (notably captain's and burglar's) do need to go away, but only because PVP should not have impact on PVE like that.

I'm glad that you had the will to find Evendale's post regarding a Guardian locking down aggro - I'd been thinking about it, but couldn't bring myself to track it down.

Good synopsis overall, by the way. Thank you.

I have read a large number of posts in this thread, and perhaps i have missed it but at no point have i read anything about fight duration. There have been lots of screens linked showing large DPS parses over very short periods of time.
Do not forget, the longer the fight duration then the less these numbers will be, also the obvious power issues from the addle-spamming players.

Are you perhaps neglecting the idea that the PvP set allows the burglar to fill a burst DPS role, which i guess used to be a good job for a Rune-keeper, whilst the RK is perhaps still able to fill this role, it has also changed slightly over previous updates.

But what has fight duration got to do with reveal-weakness stacking i hear you say, this boils down to the encounter. People will bypass boss mechanics if the encounter is poorly designed or broken, as we have seen.
The first group to kill the Acid boss did it as far as i can tell the correct way or so their class setup would suggest (just 2 burgs)
The burg-zerg method was used initially because the encounter was broken, if you failed you would have to reset and clear the trash again.
The Giants are also broken, i am fairly confident in saying the encounter could be done with all burgs using the Orthanc set, and RW is boosting everyone's DPS not just theirs.

Do not get too hung up on what a class 'should' do either.

I've always viewed Burglars as a support class that could bring for cc, debuffs and a bit of DPS, not as a class you bring for cc, debuffs and pretty damn good DPS, and that's where I think they're right now.

What you think a Burglar is is what people view a Lore-master as, let go of what a class used to be and move on with the game, class roles change as do their abilities.
If your view is correct where would a burglar fit into a single boss fight that requires no CC and there is no option to pop CJs?

I admire the fact that you're replying and trying to get your point across but you do seem to be ignoring many aspects of what this class is, what it brings to the group & just how situational it can be.

I simply can't agree with you when i feel you're oblivious to where i feel the issue lies, which is content design.
Also your reveal suggestions would make this class a melee lore-master, once again the class has moved on, content especially dictates that.

I'd post another MeMe but it would only get deleted

Originally Posted by Tamiya

It's asinine to compare with LMs and captains.

Through the well stated arguments you have put here, you have me convinced for good.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

A single RK can maintain 1 Fall to Our Wrath permanently, and up to 2 FtOWs 20% of time. FtOWs from multiple RKs stack just as well. Vertical debuff stacking is not unique to burglars. The debuff magnitude of FtOW is lesser than burg debuffs, but RKs are compensated with other group utilities that burglars do not have.

Burglars also have utilities RKs dont have, it's not a one way street.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

A single LM, even traited DPS, can maintain 6+ debuffs permanently on multiple targets, and, traited debuff, 10+ debuffs permanently on multiple targets. A single burglar, traited DPS, can only maintain exactly 2 debuffs permanently, and for the most part, just on 1 target, unless you keep tabbing through to apply tricks, which then cuts into DPS. LM debuffs stack horizontally and (some, not even all) burglar debuffs stack vertically, both are class features and working as intended to accentuate class flavours. You need 5 burglars to stack as many debuffs as 1 single LM, and even then, not even on as many targets.

Didnt you just write that it's asinine to compare with LMs? I have no clue on Lore-masters what so ever, I just know they're never ever stacked (I dont think I've even seen a T2 run with more than 1 LM), there's simply no reason to. There's plenty of reason to use more than 1 Burglar for all the bossfights in ToO.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

Captains are primarily buffers, and a single captain can maintain 7 (at least, not sure if I forgot any) buffs permanently, 1 mark permanently, as well as a few others short durations buffs/debuffs like To Arms and OB. Burglars have no permanent group buffs, and the only short duration group buff is that useless signal clickie.

Asinine again?

Dont forget Captains only do bit more than half the DPS a Burglar does, though a Captain does add more DPS to the group than a Burglar. All in all I'd still say a Burglar in total adds more DPS than a Captain does, and it's only the first Captain that really adds DPS to the group as TM doesnt stack.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

When you keep harping on the stackability of burg debuffs alone, but ignore all the other group utilities that other support or DPS classes bring, you quite plainly have a myopic view on the overall issue of class balance and fairness, or you don't actually play a burg and are unaware of the class's deficiencies.

Because, seriously, what else can a burg do in a boss fight if not trick+RW+DPS (and chain mez mezzable adds if there are adds, and CJ on stun-able things if group is willing to contribute)?

I wouldnt mind if Burglars were given more utilities, e.g. make CJs useful again, I just find RW and CD (you say trick but I highly doubt anything but CD is used much in ToO) stacking to be OP when it's good, when it's not good it's not stacked anyway.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

Can a burg reliably restore power/morale in a boss fight with no CJ targets? Can a burg remove afflictions efficiently? Can a burg rez? Can a burg provide additional mitigation support (most notably IHW/LS and DNFtX)? Can a burg cure stun? Can a burglar help with aggro management on a raid level (i.e. Ebbing Ire)? Can a burg reliably off-tank/kite? Can a burg mow down multiple add spawns quickly? Etc? The variety of things a burglar can do in a boss fight and as a support class is extremely limited, and the kind of DPS a burglar can do as a DPS class is limited to just positional single-target DPS. It is all fair on the grand scheme of things.

afflictions?

Burglars dont apply mitigation support, they can apply -melee damage or +miss chance to achieve results of that type.

Didnt you forget to ask if Burglars can shoot with a bow?

As Burglars are described as a support class, devs say Burglars should do less DPS than the DPS classes, I find Burglars doing too much DPS and you find Burglars having too little support utility we're somewhat on the same page? Nerf DPS (by removing debuff stack and unseen set), give them more support utility and we're good to go?
I'd like to see CJs be of use as they were in SoM, not that CJs ever were superawesome but they were still pretty nice back then, CJs arent of much use today IMO except if you need morale and/or power or if you're doing Draigoch.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

The hunter class has its own issues and those are problems of the hunter class, not the burglar.

Hunters do have issues, but that is much more a matter of minor things.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

Regardless of your class, if you cannot go all out on DPS in a DPS race, your champs and guards don't know what they are doing. Fact. HIPS is a situational aggro wipe that does not benefit the raid: it only protects the burglar from bad guards, and only works if the burglar does not need to maintain Mischief.

I disagree. Evendale is speaking of a 3+ minute fight, the single target fights (ok F+F is 2 targets + one or two handling adds but still) in ToO last much less than that. Acid can be done in a minute, Lightning probably a minute as well and first boss in Fire+Frost has to go in less than a minute afaik.

Whatever lead a guardian builds is quickly catched up by a Champ or Hunter when we're speaking ~4k+ DPS, which is what Burglars are doing atm.

"Be prepared to use CtD quickly when you next lose aggro." -> That step has big potential to cause deaths, especially in Lightning and Acid.

At which boss in ToO do Burglars need to maintain Mischief? I really dont see it.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

Some of the PVMP armour sets (notably captain's and burglar's) do need to go away, but only because PVP should not have impact on PVE like that.

I couldnt agree more.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

[1] afflictions?


[2] I disagree. Evendale is speaking of a 3+ minute fight, the single target fights (ok F+F is 2 targets + one or two handling adds but still) in ToO last much less than that. Acid can be done in a minute, Lightning probably a minute as well and first boss in Fire+Frost has to go in less than a minute afaik.

Whatever lead a guardian builds is quickly catched up by a Champ or Hunter when we're speaking ~4k+ DPS, which is what Burglars are doing atm.

"Be prepared to use CtD quickly when you next lose aggro." -> That step has big potential to cause deaths, especially in Lightning and Acid.

[3] At which boss in ToO do Burglars need to maintain Mischief? I really dont see it.

[Numbers mine, as I'm too lazy to cut and paste]

[1] I'm guessing afflictions = corruptions. Probably a translation thing.

[2] Evendale is speaking specifically about fights in which you frontload DPS - he even says something along the lines of 'this will help you hold aggro against anyone, even knob Hunters who open w/Burn Hot before you're in melee range'. What he describes is exactly what the folks who did the early Acid zergs were doing. His discussion extends to 3+ minutes because he's showing how the basic engage -> champ ebb principle can be reused every minute. In theory, his idea allows a Guardian to hold aggro against DPS numbers beyond what anyone has managed to post yet.

[3] For us, one of our Burgs needs to be in Mischief from phase 3 onward, as he's using the multi-Riddle-target set in phase 5. Ignoring that example, I still think that you're way too hung up on HIPS as the be all and end all of aggro dumps and ignoring its drawbacks (stipulating: those drawbacks aren't too big of a deal in the current end-game for most groups).

I thought one of the first kins to beat F&F T2c actually had players play their alt burgs because it brought more (dps) to the fight than their main or someone elses main that wasn't a burglar. Pretty sure that says burglar dps/utility is greater than where ZC intended it to be. That suggests burglars need to be toned down in one form or another.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Didnt you just write that it's asinine to compare with LMs?

Let me rephrase: it is asinine to say that burg debuffs shouldn't stack vertically just because LM and captain debuffs do not stack vertically. They are different classes, of course they can work off different mechanics.

I've explained why. LM debuffs stack horizontally, captain buffs stack horizontally, but burg debuffs and RK debuffs do not stack horizontally to the same extent as captains and LMs. A single burg or a single RK can never put out as many buffs/debuffs as a single LM or a single captain, vertical stacking of some burg/rk debuffs (not all burg/rk debuffs stack) is intended mechanic for both balance and class distinction.

Burglars also have utilities RKs dont have, it's not a one way street.

I didn't say they don't have any. I said one class has more of this and less of that, and the other class has less of this but more of that in return, which is true, and fair.

Didnt you forget to ask if Burglars can shoot with a bow?

Exactly. They can't.

There are a lot of things burglars can't do. The classes have their own things to contribute and in their own way. That's the point. Burglars will never replace any class entirely. That's why it's myopic to focus on just this one aspect of the class and ignore all the other real advantages and disadvantages that burgs and other classes have. Vertical debuff stacking is one of the burg's class features, of course it is powerful when the situation allows for it.

Again, hunter has few group utilities, that is a problem with the hunter class, not the burglar. If hunter issues were "minor" as you say, you wouldn't be complaining here. Everyone knows that hunters are lacking in self-regulation of aggro, survivability, and group utilities, which does place them at a relatively poor position compared to other classes.

I disagree. Evendale is speaking of a 3+ minute fight, the single target fights (ok F+F is 2 targets + one or two handling adds but still) in ToO last much less than that. Acid can be done in a minute, Lightning probably a minute as well and first boss in Fire+Frost has to go in less than a minute afaik.

He is specifically talking about zerg-fests, which include all those wings. Read the post again, and the rest of that thread too. HIPS is never part of the equation if the guards and champs know what they are doing.

At which boss in ToO do Burglars need to maintain Mischief? I really dont see it.

Again this boils down to problem with content design, and not the class. You don't change an entire class just because of this raid. Multiple posters have repeated this throughout the entire thread: HIPS is not a solution all the time, and neither is burg-stacking.

I find Burglars doing too much DPS and you find Burglars having too little support utility we're somewhat on the same page? Nerf DPS (by removing debuff stack and unseen set), give them more support utility and we're good to go?

To look at it simplisticly, yes.

When burglars can provide as much meaningful group support as LMs and captains beyond the basic trick+RW, Turbine is certainly free to modify the vertical stacking behaviour. This is in fact one of the most common topics in the burglar forums. It's an obstacle even Turbine hasn't been able to overcome and why most burglars default to 5QK+CD+RW. Other setups sacrifice significant DPS without gaining significant group utilities in return.

Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

I thought one of the first kins to beat F&F T2c actually had players play their alt burgs because it brought more (dps) to the fight than their main or someone elses main that wasn't a burglar. Pretty sure that says burglar dps/utility is greater than where ZC intended it to be. That suggests burglars need to be toned down in one form or another.

No, a boss fight with no reasonable way to be cleared with a regular setup suggests a broken raid.

So, do you want burglars toned down and nobody at all will be able to clear F&F, or do you want a broken raid fixed so everybody can clear F&F without all the class-switching?

Without idealized conditions, burglars do not out-dps any of the other DPS classes. It just so happens that a few of the TOO bosses can be maintained in such idealized conditions. That suggests repetitive and unimaginative boss designs, not a broken class. Burglars have always been able to stack debuffs vertically, why do you think it's only an issue now? That's right, previous raids have better designs.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

A single LM, even traited DPS, can maintain 6+ debuffs permanently on multiple targets, and, traited debuff, 10+ debuffs permanently on multiple targets.

And yet, how many LMs does a regular Raid bring? Exactly 1, that's about it. You see how Burgs have the edge here, when it comes to stacking and getting raid spots?

Isn't it very simple?

If the single best way to increase your DPS on a single-target boss fight is to bring more Burglars (who are generally considered not to be the DPS specialists), as it currently is, there's something wrong...

Increase the DPS of the DPS classes, decrease Burglar DPS, decrease stacking ability, I don't care, but a balanced group of both Burglars, Captains, LMs, Hunters and Champs should end up doing more damage than a Captain, LM and 3 Burglars.

That the current fights also have problems and even accentuate the issue is a whole different story... but it just feels wrong that the Burglar is the #1 go-to-guy to get more DPS.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

So, do you want burglars toned down and nobody at all will be able to clear F&F, or do you want a broken raid fixed so everybody can clear F&F without all the class-switching?

Without idealized conditions, burglars do not out-dps any of the other DPS classes. It just so happens that a few of the TOO bosses can be maintained in such idealized conditions. That suggests repetitive and unimaginative boss designs, not a broken class. Burglars have always been able to stack debuffs vertically, why do you think it's only an issue now? That's right, previous raids have better designs.

You're saying there is a broken boss fight but burglars >>> broken raid fights. Wouldn't that say how ridiculous burglars can be when brought to a raid in force? (;

You must be new to lotro. Bringing multiple (the more the merrier) burgs was always the easiest/safest run for turtle when initially released and there was complaints about that. The same thing was noticable in OD. Many kins brought 3-4+ burgs to fights like Ivar T2c and Durins Bane T2c to make them easier/safer (without using the exploit). In most fights the faster you can kill a boss/mob the easier it becomes because you avoid so many risks and minimize certain mechanics to the point they're negligible.

Stacking debuffs has always been a known power trip for the class. It's more noticable now (to scrubs) because burglar dps has increased greatly relative to hunter/champs/RKs. Great players already knew stacking burglars for many fights made them incredibly easy compared to a well-rounded class make-up.

Burglar has been overpowered since SoA. I remember a 24 man thorog raid with stacking Addle, Reveal Weakness and Disable+Counter Defense. Fastest run ever.

Sure they also got some nerfs in the past years:
-Removed stacking Addle.
-The more Dust in the Eyes/Disables the less effect.
-Enrage doesn't work on the turtle.
-Most bosses are immume to FM's.

The main problem begins with creating this class. Surely on paper the burglar must have been already overpowered, i'm not sure why Turbine decided to make such class.

Still with Reveal Weakness and Counter Defense (+6% crit to the whole group that attack targets with this debuff, basically without block/parry/evades) the burg is the main class to increase DPS in a fight.

On top of that burgs can do great damage themselves without the stat cap on outgoing damage, 25% crit and with the PvMP set +30% devestate crit.

Turbine must nerf this class in a way people will still pick them for groups, but without too overpowered debuffs.

Example make Counter Defense +3% crit like it is now untraited, with trait it becomes AoE like Dust in the Eyes. Remove the parry/block/evade ratings, so people will use more finesse gear.

Remove stacking Reveal Weakness.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

Let me rephrase: it is asinine to say that burg debuffs shouldn't stack vertically just because LM and captain debuffs do not stack vertically. They are different classes, of course they can work off different mechanics.

I've explained why. LM debuffs stack horizontally, captain buffs stack horizontally, but burg debuffs and RK debuffs do not stack horizontally to the same extent as captains and LMs. A single burg or a single RK can never put out as many buffs/debuffs as a single LM or a single captain, vertical stacking of some burg/rk debuffs (not all burg/rk debuffs stack) is intended mechanic for both balance and class distinction.

How many is AS many? For ToO I really dont see where you have so many adds a Burglar cannot put tricks on all of them fairly fast, especially if traited MM.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

I didn't say they don't have any. I said one class has more of this and less of that, and the other class has less of this but more of that in return, which is true, and fair.

Nope, but you made it sound like RKs have so much more group utility than Burglars. RKs have strong utility skills but so do Burglars.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

Exactly. They can't.

There are a lot of things burglars can't do. The classes have their own things to contribute and in their own way. That's the point. Burglars will never replace any class entirely. That's why it's myopic to focus on just this one aspect of the class and ignore all the other real advantages and disadvantages that burgs and other classes have. Vertical debuff stacking is one of the burg's class features, of course it is powerful when the situation allows for it.

Powerful? I guess that's another way of saying OP. As I wrote in previous posts in here, the DPS classes were changed to comply with the increases/removals to caps, e.g. crit rating.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

Again, hunter has few group utilities, that is a problem with the hunter class, not the burglar. If hunter issues were "minor" as you say, you wouldn't be complaining here. Everyone knows that hunters are lacking in self-regulation of aggro, survivability, and group utilities, which does place them at a relatively poor position compared to other classes.

I dont agree. The only reason we're really seeing issues, especially aggro, with Hunters is because they now have to compete with a secondary DPS class and sometimes do 4k+ DPS to do that. The aggro tools of a Hunter (and RK for that matter) are simply not made to handle that kind of DPS.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

He is specifically talking about zerg-fests, which include all those wings. Read the post again, and the rest of that thread too. HIPS is never part of the equation if the guards and champs know what they are doing.

I have read it many, many times and I still dont agree with his setup. While it may work for 2.5-3k perhaps even 3.5k DPS, I really do not think the "leads" he gets lasts long when the DPS goes up. Anywhere after step 5 and before step 10 the insane DPS of 3-5 Burglar RWs and CDs are enough to grab aggro from the boss very fast no matter what the tank does.
If the tank loses aggro at F+F or Acid at a bad moment, it can easily mean 8-10 grims or 2-5 dead toons from the heavy AoE of the Acid boss.
After CtD he's pretty much on his own, the more DPS the faster he will have to use CtD and the faster he will lose aggro.

Lastly, 1 resist and it's over. Except if a Burglar grabs aggro, he just HiPS again.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

Again this boils down to problem with content design, and not the class. You don't change an entire class just because of this raid. Multiple posters have repeated this throughout the entire thread: HIPS is not a solution all the time, and neither is burg-stacking.

And as many other have said, it is not only this raid, it is just as much previous raids. The only reason it is so much more visible for RoI is because of the DPS increase the Burglar class (and all other secondary DPS classes for that matter) received.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

To look at it simplisticly, yes.

When burglars can provide as much meaningful group support as LMs and captains beyond the basic trick+RW, Turbine is certainly free to modify the vertical stacking behaviour. This is in fact one of the most common topics in the burglar forums. It's an obstacle even Turbine hasn't been able to overcome and why most burglars default to 5QK+CD+RW. Other setups sacrifice significant DPS without gaining significant group utilities in return.

Didnt you just say this is content design problems and not class design problems? To me this is yet another sign that the Burglar class need changes.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

No, a boss fight with no reasonable way to be cleared with a regular setup ALSO suggests a broken raid.

Fixed it for you

Originally Posted by Tamiya

So, do you want burglars toned down ....., or do you want a broken raid fixed so everybody can clear F&F without all the class-switching?

I want both. And I think many others want that too.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

Without idealized conditions, burglars do not out-dps any of the other DPS classes. It just so happens that a few of the TOO bosses can be maintained in such idealized conditions.

Many, many bosses can be put under such idealized conditions. It is extremely useful for most bosses in DN, last 2 bosses in BG, Thorog, Ivar, Durins Bane and even Poison wing to some extent.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

That suggests repetitive and unimaginative boss designs, not a broken class. Burglars have always been able to stack debuffs vertically, why do you think it's only an issue now? That's right, previous raids have better designs.

Because of the MASSIVE changes to secondary DPS classes. Even Captain do decent DPS now compared to the DPS they did before RoI. Even ZC described that rather thoroughly in the post I've quoted several times in this thread.

The secondary DPS classes were changed a lot. Several game mechanics were changed a lot. Itemization was changed a lot. Yet so many in here thinks pre-RoI conditions applies to post-RoI, completely ignoring the massive changes brought to this game through RoI.

If DN, BG, OD were scaled up to 75 without changing the fights much, we'd see Burglar Stacking be very useful for most bosses there.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Burglars can reach well beyond 1.5k DPS: http://s1.directupload.net/images/120404/nbkyyr5s.jpg

I'm not a huge fan of argument by anecdote. You really can't or shouldn't infer that much from one screen-shot from one burg on a target dummy. That would be highly atypical DPS, and we really don't know if the person spent all day trying to get a "high score". For one thing, I don't see the dummy targeted in the shot, so we really don't know if it had 6 RW's on it and a cappy mark and Oathbreakers. Again, who knows?

I have done a fair number of dummy parses as well to evaluate gear and relic choices, and while my burg is not perfectly geared, and I spend my commendations on my creep so I don't have the PvP set, my slightly lesser-geared hunter can out-DPS my burg on a target dummy. And in a raid situation where the hunter ALSO benefits from burglar debuffs a hunter will out DPS a burg. And if that hunter is also on add duty? You've now changed the basis of comparison.

I think many are ignoring the elephant in the room. There are too many hunters compared to burgs as it is. Does Turbine nerf a class to accommodate T2 CM Orthanc bosses that less than 4% probably run in any case? Wouldn't doing so decrease the number of burgs and increase the amount of hunters?

Here's the situation on my server right now. Of those not on anonymous, there are over SIX TIMES the number of 75 hunters on right now compared to Burgs and Lore Masters. And there are 2 1/2 times as many champs. In my experience this is not atypical. The proposed solutions to fix "the" problem may cause a more important problem to be made worse.

Originally Posted by Irenmund

I'm not a huge fan of argument by anecdote. You really can't or shouldn't infer that much from one screen-shot from one burg on a target dummy. That would be highly atypical DPS, and we really don't know if the person spent all day trying to get a "high score". For one thing, I don't see the dummy targeted in the shot, so we really don't know if it had 6 RW's on it and a cappy mark and Oathbreakers. Again, who knows?

Look at the Burg-Section in the Forum - it's not that special to get over 2k DPS - my burg does 2,2k DPS as an average without Baingrist or the Clickyble 3er-Set...

Originally Posted by Melmadoc

Look at the Burg-Section in the Forum - it's not that special to get over 2k DPS - my burg does 2,2k DPS as an average without Baingrist or the Clickyble 3er-Set...

Not saying it is. However, I think an equivalently geared hunter will still out DPS an equivalently geared Burglar on a single target, on average, rather than a cherry-picked high number.

Originally Posted by Irenmund

I'm not a huge fan of argument by anecdote. You really can't or shouldn't infer that much from one screen-shot from one burg on a target dummy. That would be highly atypical DPS, and we really don't know if the person spent all day trying to get a "high score". For one thing, I don't see the dummy targeted in the shot, so we really don't know if it had 6 RW's on it and a cappy mark and Oathbreakers. Again, who knows?

What part of "can reach" do you not understand? I did not say 2.2k DPS from a Burglar is normal, only that it is possible.

The picture origins from a thread where Burglars compare their dummie DPS, I doubt he had help reaching that kind of DPS seeing 2k DPS is very reachable with good gear. (there are several screenies of Burglars doing 2k DPS and seeing the Burglar in my own kin it is easy for me to see that 2k DPS is very possible for a Burglar, 2.2k should be possible too)

The whole point origins in ZC's post saying "Burglar DPS < Hunter DPS". If ANY Burglar can reach higher DPS, no matter how lucky he is, than the best of Hunters, something is amiss. Dummies are not the way to measure that precisely, but it can still give us a faint idea of the situation. If we didnt see any Burglars do more than like 1.4-1.5k DPS on dummies, you would not see me whine about Burglar DPS being too high.

Originally Posted by Irenmund

I have done a fair number of dummy parses as well to evaluate gear and relic choices, and while my burg is not perfectly geared, and I spend my commendations on my creep so I don't have the PvP set, my slightly lesser-geared hunter can out-DPS my burg on a target dummy.

In OP I state the problem here arised when the Unseen set, I really dont care that you do not have it. It's there, it's possible to get and it's by far the best PvE set even though it's PvP. Not other class, except perhaps the Captain, can get a set with bonuses of that proportion. Imagine if:
1. Hunters were given the same bonus on Swift Bow
2. Champions were given the same bonus on Ferocious Strikes
3. Rune-Keepers were given the same bonus on a ~10 sec cooldown skill (I'm not sure RKs got a skill with 10s cooldown, they tend to be 5s or 15s?)

You'd see like 90-100% of all raid Hunters, Champions and Rune-keepers run with that set even if it's a PvP set. Being able to reach 30% dev chance is way, way better than any other set for the DPS classes.

Originally Posted by Irenmund

And in a raid situation where the hunter ALSO benefits from burglar debuffs a hunter will out DPS a burg. And if that hunter is also on add duty? You've now changed the basis of comparison.

So what if the Hunter/Champion/Rune-Keeper benefit?
The problem is that they have to make up for NOT benefitting the raid with another set RW and CD. If the Burglar does 2k DPS and gives 1k DPS to the raid through RW and CD, a Hunter/Champion/Rune-Keeper would have to do 3k DPS to make up for RW and CD. That is why it is a problem when you can put in 3-5 Burglars because they reach 4k DPS for 60 seconds, 3-5 Hunters/Champions/Rune-Keepers cannot do that and even if they get close they cannot manage aggro.

Originally Posted by Irenmund

I think many are ignoring the elephant in the room.

I think you're one of them. Now lets stop writing stuff like this and stay constructive?

Originally Posted by Irenmund

There are too many hunters compared to burgs as it is. Does Turbine nerf a class to accommodate T2 CM Orthanc bosses that less than 4% probably run in any case? Wouldn't doing so decrease the number of burgs and increase the amount of hunters?

I dont know. If debuff stacking is what keep players to keep on playing Burglars then it just might be.

Originally Posted by Irenmund

Here's the situation on my server right now. Of those not on anonymous, there are over SIX TIMES the number of 75 hunters on right now compared to Burgs and Lore Masters. And there are 2 1/2 times as many champs. In my experience this is not atypical. The proposed solutions to fix "the" problem may cause a more important problem to be made worse.

I dont see the problem here. If there's a majority of Hunter and Champions, it makes sense that most of those are needed to complete content.

On the very opposite I begin to think people roll Burglars because of Rogues @ WoW, not because of Bilbo Baggins.

Originally Posted by Irenmund

Not saying it is. However, I think an equivalently geared hunter will still out DPS an equivalently geared Burglar on a single target, on average, rather than a cherry-picked high number.

Directly, the Hunter will most likely outDPS the Burglar. However, the benefit from RW and CD is so huge in a raid that the Hunter cannot make up for it.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Originally Posted by Irenmund

I think many are ignoring the elephant in the room.

I think you're one of them. Now lets stop writing stuff like this and stay constructive?

If you were expecting to just state your opinion without others adding their own, possibly in disagreement with yours, then you either don't understand the purpose of a discussion forum, or need to put on some skin a little thicker than 0.2 microns. You'll note I did not single out yourself, or anyone directly, and that it was my opinion that Turbine has been wrestling with class number balance from day one. Did it occur to you to wonder why Turbine stacks burg debuffs but not Captain or LM? Do you REALLY think nobody but yourself noticed this before? Or that for certain fights the utility of doing so may have been going on just a wee bit longer than the Tower of Orthanc? This really has been brought up before. Yeah, in some instances it can lead to bringing more burgs along. There's some other mechanics and content that could use some work too. And you or I may indeed have our own ideas on that. I assure you that I will not necessarily agree with all of your fixes, nor will you with mine. Incidentally, there are a few things that the Dev you quoted (Zombie_Columbus) thinks that I disagree with.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Directly, the Hunter will most likely outDPS the Burglar. However, the benefit from RW and CD is so huge in a raid that the Hunter cannot make up for it.

If it comes down to, I have a choice between a hunter and a burg in a 12 person raid, which would add more DPS? Yeah, of course the Burg will in many cases. My point was that many of the ways that Turbine could address this "problem" have potentially more damaging side-effects. My main was a hunter for well over a year, and was my first to raid. There are a ton of things I think that can be done to improve that class in particular. Unfortunately most of them would exacerbate the relative hunter-over-population problem. Maybe they DO need to nerf the burglar some, or some of the toys like the Unseen set. There may be a reason why they aren't at the moment though.

Originally Posted by Irenmund

they DO need to nerf the burglar some, or some of the toys like the Unseen set. There may be a reason why they aren't at the moment though.

laziness.

Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

laziness.

Eh? Probably not. I think in general people tend to forget that what "they" might see as a huge problem isn't necessarily one for other people, even when those other people would be the ones needed to fix the problem.

So "Stop Burg Stacking from being a viable Strategy" is a problem for Turbine, how? And if it is, how big of a problem? Remember that Turbine, or their parent corporations aren't charities. Is it costing them subscribers, or a loss in Turbine Point sales? Would "fixing" the problem, rather than say, working on other purchase-able content bring them in more money? That's not necessarily laziness, that's running a business.

Are we talking about why turbine hasn't fixed burg stacking or are we talking about why burg stacking shouldnt be possible?

Don't sidetrack just because you can't win the argument head on, it's frustrating.

And if turbine is nerfing certain classes just because of population (they're not. look at champs), but if they are, that's a poor excuse to defend burg stacking. You're saying "well, we're OP, but there's so few of us..." that's as pathetic as the earlier "but we've never been OP in earlier expansions, let us have our chance!" argument. C'mon.

Originally Posted by Bond007

Are we talking about why turbine hasn't fixed burg stacking or are we talking about why burg stacking shouldnt be possible?

Don't sidetrack just because you can't win the argument head on, it's frustrating.

And if turbine is nerfing certain classes just because of population (they're not. look at champs), but if they are, that's a poor excuse to defend burg stacking. You're saying "well, we're OP, but there's so few of us..." that's as pathetic as the earlier "but we've never been OP in earlier expansions, let us have our chance!" argument. C'mon.

I think you missed the subtleties. Burg stacking being a viable strategy in a few isolated instances doesn't seem like necessarily a reason to nerf them. As some suggested, perhaps fixing/and or changing the content is a better solution. And nobody has said "we're OP, but there's so few of us". Rather that knee-jerk reactions to fix poorly thought-out content that would diminish the popularity of a class would have unintended consequences, perhaps worse than the "problem" being addressed.

However, the consequences of hunter over-population have been discussed to death on the hunter forums. The general view-point there is that it is at least one reason why hunters haven't got a lot of dev love in years. That, and the fact that classes like the RK bring in more TP $$s.

Originally Posted by Irenmund

If you were expecting to just state your opinion without others adding their own, possibly in disagreement with yours, then you either don't understand the purpose of a discussion forum, or need to put on some skin a little thicker than 0.2 microns. You'll note I did not single out yourself, or anyone directly, and that it was my opinion that Turbine has been wrestling with class number balance from day one.

Oh no, I do like some discussions, constructive discussions, but I really dont see where saying stuff like "I think many are ignoring the elephant in the room." is constructive. We might as well just say "you're wrong", "no you're wrong". It's not adding anything to the discussion at all, it's just filler at best.

Originally Posted by Irenmund

Did it occur to you to wonder why Turbine stacks burg debuffs but not Captain or LM? Do you REALLY think nobody but yourself noticed this before? Or that for certain fights the utility of doing so may have been going on just a wee bit longer than the Tower of Orthanc? This really has been brought up before. Yeah, in some instances it can lead to bringing more burgs along. There's some other mechanics and content that could use some work too. And you or I may indeed have our own ideas on that. I assure you that I will not necessarily agree with all of your fixes, nor will you with mine. Incidentally, there are a few things that the Dev you quoted (Zombie_Columbus) thinks that I disagree with.

I know many other have seen it, it's been like that since the beta I guess. The thing that has changed though is much of the game around the debuff stacking. Because of these changes, I really think debuff stacking is over the top.

Originally Posted by Irenmund

If it comes down to, I have a choice between a hunter and a burg in a 12 person raid, which would add more DPS? Yeah, of course the Burg will in many cases. My point was that many of the ways that Turbine could address this "problem" have potentially more damaging side-effects. My main was a hunter for well over a year, and was my first to raid. There are a ton of things I think that can be done to improve that class in particular. Unfortunately most of them would exacerbate the relative hunter-over-population problem. Maybe they DO need to nerf the burglar some, or some of the toys like the Unseen set. There may be a reason why they aren't at the moment though.

Of course it could have damaging side-effects, and there are things than could be done the Hunter and the other classes. I dont really care for your argument about class population, we don't see things put in place to allow for Lore-master stacking or Warden stacking even though they're also secondary DPS and very low in numbers.

As timmy put it, they're most likely too busy/lazy or however you want to put it. As long as it "works" somehow, I dont think we'll see the Devs change anything until RoR. I think much of this issue started when the Producers etc said they will be releasing more content faster. The concept of wanting to push out more content has a backside, that being lack of time to test and fix issues of the content released.
I may be wrong, but I dont remember MoM nor SoM to give us as much content as fast as with RoI, nor the amount of bugs. And they'd nerf classes if they felt they needed a nerf.