I briefly talked to the main tank of one of the kins that have successfully completed this encounter (I don't know if he wants me to reveal his kin name or his name so I won't for the moment; but his kin leader often posts on this forum, so I am sure he can back up this point). He said every Burglar in that successful run did over 4k DPS with the PvP set--and with only 3 Burglars! If you can show me a single instance of a Hunter doing over 4k DPS with 3 or fewer Burglars, then I am open to re-considering my statement.
I know this isn't addressed to me, but I don't see how your link rebuts Elantiri's point. Your link shows YesMaam talking about his experience with the encounter THREE MONTHS ago, when no one had come close completing it and when it was in fact not even possible to complete. In short, YesMaam has not shown that he understands the encounter in its current incarnation.
Besides, res ipsa loquitur. His ridiculous claim that the Challenge would be "easy" with 2 Burglars speak volumes about his inexperience and ignorance with the encounter.
Originally Posted by scrubmonkey
All that is still ignoring that it's a very, VERY narrow band of content where burg stacking could even be considered desirable. As a melee only, single target only, crit and positional dependent style of play, the class has more built-in drawbacks than any other DPS class.
Your list of supposed drawbacks are not such fatal or even crippling drawbacks when more closely examined in the context of end-game tier 2 raids. Yes, Burglars are melee-only, but 2 out of 3 primary DPS classes are melee; yes, they are single-target DPS, but all Orthanc T2 boss fights are single-target fights, unless you are not Burglar-stacking Acid T2; yes, they are crits-dependent, but crits are not exactly hard to come by with raid buffs, especially if you Burglar stack and/or use the PvP armor set; and, finally, yes, Burglars need to attack from the rear to maximize their DPS, but in raid boss encounters, tanks should always turn the bosses away from the raid DPS anyways.
Last edited by Miretocot; Jun 23 2012 at 10:52 PM.
I briefly talked to the main tank of one of the kins that have successfully completed this encounter (I don't know if he wants me to reveal his kin name or his name so I won't for the moment; but his kin leader often posts on this forum, so I am sure he can back up this point). He said every Burglar in that successful run did over 4k DPS with the PvP set--and with only 3 Burglars! If you can show me a single instance of a Hunter doing over 4k DPS with 3 or fewer Burglars, then I am open to re-considering my statement.
Ah, so your entire point rests on "some guy telling you". Res ipsa loquitur. Indeed.
I can only assume that you verified what he said before making your opinion, right?
Originally Posted by Miretocot
Your list of supposed drawbacks are not such fatal or even crippling drawbacks when more closely examined in the context of end-game tier 2 raids. Yes, Burglars are melee-only, but 2 out of 3 primary DPS classes are melee; yes, they are single-target DPS, but all Orthanc T2 boss fights are single-target fights, unless you are not Burglar-stacking Acid T2; yes, they are crits-dependent, but crits are not exactly hard to come by with raid buffs, especially if you Burglar stack and/or use the PvP armor set; and, finally, yes, Burglars need to attack from the rear to maximize their DPS, but in raid boss encounters, tanks should always turn the bosses away from the raid DPS anyways.
They need not be crippling, only unique in order for future encounter design to discourage burg stacking (not just "morale gating") from future encounters. Guess what? 3/4 of those drawbacks are unique to the class. Add the fact that burgs are the squishiest melee only class, as stated earlier in the thread.
Besides, you skipped over quite a bit of my post. Encounter design always favors one class or another, because each class (should) have unique strengths and weaknesses. Where is the line where it's considered "broken"? What is the "broken" part? I submit that an encounter that was mathematically impossible 3 months ago, and is only possible by bypassing the mechanics does not suggest a broken class.
If they want to nerf the Unseen set, so be it. It's pretty off that a pvp set has the best stand-still pve dps despite being weighed down with audacity anyway.
Besides, you skipped over quite a bit of my post. Encounter design always favors one class or another, because each class (should) have unique strengths and weaknesses. Where is the line where it's considered "broken"? What is the "broken" part? I submit that an encounter that was mathematically impossible 3 months ago, and is only possible by bypassing the mechanics does not suggest a broken class.
I think this bears repeating, even though it's been said a few times already.
Anyway...
Now that Saruman has also been fixed, I'd prefer Hunters and RKs over Champs and Burgs for Lightning, Shadow, and Saruman. For that matter, I'd prefer Hunters over RKs for Shadow thanks to the extra range.
That makes 3/5 fights in Orthanc T2 that, in my eyes, favor ranged DPS over melee DPS. We have one that seems balanced for both (Acid, if not zerged), and one that obviously favors stacking Burgs. Other than being bothered by Turbine releasing a broken fight and then not even really fixing it when they, er, fixed it - what's the big deal here? One or two fights out of five favor one class over another?
I'll take that over the situations that scrubmonkey mentioned earlier: Watcher favoring Hunters over everything else - even for the spot of main tank; DN favoring multi-Champ blenders, and; BG favoring RKs so heavily, especially with 2/3 bosses being very anti-melee when it was first released (and yet another Hunter tank boss - should we nerf Hunters because Turbine gave us a fight in which a medium armor ranged DPS class was the ideal choice as main tank... yet again?).
One broken fight should not be cause to nerf a class.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
I was about to answer your post as well but Miretocot wrote pretty much what I would have written. I do have a bit to add though.
You dont consider 3 burglars to be "excessive stacking" - dont forget that it is 3 slots out of 5 DPS slots and that 3 currently is the minimum, afaik most of the current F+F challenges were done with 4 burglars in the 5 DPS slots.
It's not easily doable even with 4 burglars, everyone needs high end gear (Burglars need to farm 30k some comms and Cappies half of that) and everything has to go smooth - e.g. if an Oathbreakers misses you might as well just reset it.
Saying its easily doable with 2 burglars is just plain wrong.
EDIT:
Doesnt sound like you have much basis for saying anything about the F+F Challenge at all if you havent even tried it.
Sorry to disappoint but I was the part of the original group that discovered the mechanics of F/F and shared them on the forums lol. I haven't tried it since they made the fight far easier due to a lack of population on the servers of people going to other games and such. From what I can see in the video its a complete cakewalk compared to what it was. We probably spent hundreds of hours in that boss fight.
Ironically in my group I only have 2 burgs so I'll have to prove you wrong. Don't really have a choice there. When I kill it I'll post a video up on a new thread. Until then carry on
Yelk ~ DieHard ~ The Warlord - Shock and Awe. You will fear me.
I think this bears repeating, even though it's been said a few times already.
Anyway...
Now that Saruman has also been fixed, I'd prefer Hunters and RKs over Champs and Burgs for Lightning, Shadow, and Saruman. For that matter, I'd prefer Hunters over RKs for Shadow thanks to the extra range.
That makes 3/5 fights in Orthanc T2 that, in my eyes, favor ranged DPS over melee DPS. We have one that seems balanced for both (Acid, if not zerged), and one that obviously favors stacking Burgs. Other than being bothered by Turbine releasing a broken fight and then not even really fixing it when they, er, fixed it - what's the big deal here? One or two fights out of five favor one class over another?
One broken fight should not be cause to nerf a class.
You cant really prefer anything for Lightning and use it as an argument, 12 captains can do that fight(and their marks dont stack) + if you position yourself correctly 5 Burgslars can just burn it down without ever having to move. 5 Burglars can do that fight faster than any other set of DPS'ers can but the fight is so easy relogging Burglar alts will take longer than the fight itself.
For Shadow - why would you want Hunters over Burglars? Sure, the Hunters have an advantage due to range but of 5 DPS slots you dont need all 5 to be ranged - having 2-3 ranged and 2-3 melee DPS is plenty, and when it comes to DPS'ing the boss down the Burglars have an advantage over Champs because of 2-3*RW and CD + they can CC some defilers. My favorite setup for Shadow HM is 1 RK, 2 Hunters and 2 Burglars, but it can also be done with 2 ranged DPS and 3 Burglars.
Saruman - An RK for swapping to healing is very nice (almost required) and some Hunters for spreading out toons is nice as well. But when it comes to burning 1 target down Burglars have become the best, and here I'd still favor 2 Hunters, 1 RK and 2 Burglars over any other DPS setup because you can to burn 1 target down as fast as possible to get rid of the bossfight mechanics of that target. Again here you could just as well go with 1 RK, 1 Hunter and 3 Burglars without too much trouble.
Notice how I barely mention Champs. That's another reason I think Burglars should be nerfed a bit, I really dont see where Champions show their worth apart from AoE'ing the trash pulls before the bossfights. They're being outDPSed by a debuffer class when we're talking 1 target at a time.
Originally Posted by Lestache
I'll take that over the situations that scrubmonkey mentioned earlier: Watcher favoring Hunters over everything else - even for the spot of main tank; DN favoring multi-Champ blenders, and; BG favoring RKs so heavily, especially with 2/3 bosses being very anti-melee when it was first released (and yet another Hunter tank boss - should we nerf Hunters because Turbine gave us a fight in which a medium armor ranged DPS class was the ideal choice as main tank... yet again?).
I dont know if you noticed but by increasing DPS dramatically on both character and mob-side and only increasing mitigations on heavy armor, they DID nerf Hunters ability to range tank. And I think that was fine, we have 4 classes capable of tanking to lower or higher degree (grd, wrd, chmp and cpt), why would we want other classes to tank as well?
And once again you ignore the difference here between FAVORED and REQUIRED. That's the difference I find important here, as with Watcher, DN, BG and OD you would have fights where your class had advantages and disadvantages, but as long as you were not a Burglar stuck on a pillar in Poison boss fight, you could still contribute and make up for your disadvantages if you're good at playing your class. You cannot do that with Fire+Frost Challenge.
Originally Posted by YesMaam
Sorry to disappoint but I was the part of the original group that discovered the mechanics of F/F and shared them on the forums lol. I haven't tried it since they made the fight far easier due to a lack of population on the servers of people going to other games and such. From what I can see in the video its a complete cakewalk compared to what it was. We probably spent hundreds of hours in that boss fight.
Ironically in my group I only have 2 burgs so I'll have to prove you wrong. Don't really have a choice there. When I kill it I'll post a video up on a new thread. Until then carry on
I know that, I have read the "Fire Frost CM is (actually) Impossible" thread, but you're still wrong when you say this fight is easily done with 2 Burglars. It may be easily done compared to before (where it was impossible), but everything doable is easy compared to something impossible.
I'd love to see you do it with only 2 Burglars, but that does not really change my other main point - that Burglar Stacking ruins some of the fights and allows you to avoid bossfight mechanics that other class setups cannot avoid.
Last edited by Elrantiri; Jun 24 2012 at 06:48 AM.
Ah, so your entire point rests on "some guy telling you". Res ipsa loquitur. Indeed.
I can only assume that you verified what he said before making your opinion, right?
Of course: I do not take things on faith but first examine whether they accord with what I know. Philosophically, I am but a step away from being a radical skeptic!
4k-plus with 3 Burglars is what other end-game Burglars are getting for that fight before the first Giant is down. For instance, here there are screenshots of another PvP set-fueled Burglar's Combatanalysis parses (check post #25):
We also had the same raid class set-up as the aforementioned kin, and our DPS-es are all well-geared. Nonetheless, our raid DPS lagged considerably behind the said kin, and the only determinative factor we could come up after analyzing their video was the difference provided to the Burglar by the PvP set that none of our Burglars that run had.
Now again, show me any evidence that Hunters with 3 or fewer Burglars can hit 4k-plus for a short burn fight in Orthanc. I am open-minded.
Originally Posted by scrubmonkey
Besides, you skipped over quite a bit of my post. Encounter design always favors one class or another, because each class (should) have unique strengths and weaknesses.
First, I specifically "skipped over" your historiography of LOTRO raids, simply because I started playing around the time of the RoI expansion and hence did not know those raids. Unlike some, I tend not to comment on stuff I don't know.
Second, as for your general point: I think I (and others) have addressed it adequately elsewhere. There are aspects of Burglars that are absolutely unique that do not apply to other classes. The problem isn't that certain raid encounters favor ranged classes and others melee classes (which is an issue of general type of classes) but that all melee raid encounters favor Burglars (which is a specific class). But to be more concrete this time: Why would you ever stack Champions over Burglars in a melee encounter now? Burglars with the PvP set can exceed or equal Champion DPS now (and their superior aggro dump is a big reason for this); and they provide far greater group benefits.
And even if the PvP set is nerfed (which I am betting won't happen, given Turbine's lack of alacrity in responding to balance problems), I am frankly not sure the presumptively superior Champion DPS then would still be enough to take Champions over Burglars in any melee fights.
Originally Posted by YesMaam
I haven't tried it since they made the fight far easier due to a lack of population on the servers of people going to other games and such. From what I can see in the video its a complete cakewalk compared to what it was....
Ironically in my group I only have 2 burgs so I'll have to prove you wrong. Don't really have a choice there. When I kill it I'll post a video up on a new thread. Until then carry on
Until you do it with 2 Burglars, please kindly shut up.
And yes, I am sure there are folks who think hitting an Aroldis Chapman fast ball is "easy."
Finally, having a single raid group do it with 2 Burglars by no means make it "easy"--even if you do succeed. Easy for that group perhaps (depending on how "difficult" it was for them to complete it, etc.).
Last edited by Miretocot; Jun 24 2012 at 06:54 AM.
Hunters can do 4.5-6k DPS singletarget for a short while and more consistently with enough Burglars stacking RW and CD (I think 3 just might be enough to stay around the 4k DPS mark considering double oathies, double to arms etc) but I dont see how you would do it without having permanent aggro after 20 some seconds.
EDIT: And even though Hunter can reach the same 4k DPS, they dont supply the RW+CD to the raid as another Burglar would, so they're still outDPSed by a debuffer class.
Last edited by Elrantiri; Jun 24 2012 at 07:16 AM.
You cant really prefer anything for Lightning and use it as an argument, 12 captains can do that fight(and their marks dont stack) + if you position yourself correctly 5 Burgslars can just burn it down without ever having to move.
Indeed. We've done it with 1 ranged, and I am sure we can do it with all melee.
It's about as valid as some dimwit earlier mentioning RoF as a legitimate counter-point for a fight that doesn't favor Burglars.
Originally Posted by Elrantiri
Hunters can do 4.5k-6k DPS singletarget for a short while and more consistently with enough Burglars stacking RW and CD (I think 3 just might be enough to stay around the 4k DPS mark considering double oathies, double to arms etc) but I dont see how you would do it without having permanent aggro after 20 some seconds.
That's precisely my point earlier about "effective" or "practical" DPS. Burglars can more easily go "all-out" from the start in a way that Hunters and Champions may not.
Last edited by Miretocot; Jun 24 2012 at 07:08 AM.
And I know Hunters can do that - but they'll grab aggro if they keep that DPS up.
I know they can as well, but my point was that they can't do 4k for the entire 45-50 seconds, since they will be dead
I think Pinalea from my server (who claimed to have the highest Agility in LOTRO verified through the LOTRO stat checker) in the Hunter forum said he never goes over even 2.5k in Acid because he will get aggro will die.
if ppl want to stack burgs i say w/e just let them.
only things that could affect u are possibly AH prices and PvP from extra first ages lol, and the title of course. but if u dont like stacking burgs just dont do it, tweak youre build to max dps and do whatever else u need to do complete the fight. have capts trait dps, there are plenty of ways to make this possible.
the real question should be whether or not the fights is possible without stacking, unless it is totally imbalanced which i dont think it is...
Shock and Awe
Hydra - Captain. Kraken - Guard. Ra - Warg
As for TnG, evade doesn't help vs. tactical attacks, which is what I think the grims do - I could be wrong, though. .
The Fire Grim scored a partially parried hit with Fire Explosion on Elrantiri for 584 Fire damage to Morale.
The Fire Grim tried to use Fire Explosion on Elrantiri but he parried the attempt.
If you can parry the stuff I'm fairly sure you can also evade it.
It's a mystery to me why reveal weakness does stack. You can only apply one of each type of captain's mark, so no stacking there, and lore-master debuffs overwrite each other rather than stacking. Why do burgs get this bonus which is basically custom designed to promote unhealthy class stacking?
Lore-mastery - A weekly column discsussing end game lore-master play.
And once again you ignore the difference here between FAVORED and REQUIRED. That's the difference I find important here, as with Watcher, DN, BG and OD you would have fights where your class had advantages and disadvantages, but as long as you were not a Burglar stuck on a pillar in Poison boss fight, you could still contribute and make up for your disadvantages if you're good at playing your class. You cannot do that with Fire+Frost Challenge.
Sorry to snip down to just that part but I don't have the desire to reply to more than this right now.
Two quick points:
1) Your last statement is patently untrue - Hunters, RKs, and Champs can all contribute, and contribute greatly. There's nothing about having 3 Burgs that locks out the other DPS classes. We found Hunters to be the most useful at pulling in the grims, we used Champs to tank the first giant (and also taunt in grims on the second), and RKs can also help with pulling in grims and provide a bit of elemental protection for the initial grim spawn. In fact, Burgs are the worst DPS class for bringing in the grims to kill on top of the second giant - no ranged attacks worth a damn, and no taunts.
2) I think that, once again, all this is indicative of is a fight that is broken - not a class that needs to be nerfed. Then again, if Professional Awesome downs it with two Burgs, then maybe the fight isn't even as broken as we think it is - just harder than most of us can handle.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
It's a mystery to me why reveal weakness does stack. You can only apply one of each type of captain's mark, so no stacking there, and lore-master debuffs overwrite each other rather than stacking. Why do burgs get this bonus which is basically custom designed to promote unhealthy class stacking?
I think the main problem is burglars have similar ST dps as the other top tier dps classes. They might be slightly less than hunters/RKs/champs but with reveal weakness raid wide + counter defence, it more than makes up for slightly less single target dps.
Sorry to snip down to just that part but I don't have the desire to reply to more than this right now.
Two quick points:
1) Your last statement is patently untrue - Hunters, RKs, and Champs can all contribute, and contribute greatly. There's nothing about having 3 Burgs that locks out the other DPS classes. We found Hunters to be the most useful at pulling in the grims, we used Champs to tank the first giant (and also taunt in grims on the second), and RKs can also help with pulling in grims and provide a bit of elemental protection for the initial grim spawn. In fact, Burgs are the worst DPS class for bringing in the grims to kill on top of the second giant - no ranged attacks worth a damn, and no taunts.
2) I think that, once again, all this is indicative of is a fight that is broken - not a class that needs to be nerfed. Then again, if Professional Awesome downs it with two Burgs, then maybe the fight isn't even as broken as we think it is - just harder than most of us can handle.
1) Enrage works fine to bring the grim near group, then DPS it to get aggro. I never said the DPS classes cannot contribute - as it is obvious that they can - the problem is that a debuffer class evidently does more DPS with better aggro "management" than the DPS classes do.
2) I thought it was fairly obvious the fight was broken when I made this thread, which is so much more the reason Burglar Stacking should not be a viable tactic for ignoring game mechanics and kill it anyway.
Now again, show me any evidence that Hunters with 3 or fewer Burglars can hit 4k-plus for a short burn fight in Orthanc. I am open-minded.
Challenge accepted. Again though, the point that you're trying to make still, at best, demonstrates that there's a broken set, not a broken class.
Originally Posted by Miretocot
Second, as for your general point: I think I (and others) have addressed it adequately elsewhere. There are aspects of Burglars that are absolutely unique that do not apply to other classes. The problem isn't that certain raid encounters favor ranged classes and others melee classes (which is an issue of general type of classes) but that all melee raid encounters favor Burglars (which is a specific class).
Completely incorrect.
Originally Posted by Miretocot
But to be more concrete this time: Why would you ever stack Champions over Burglars in a melee encounter now? Burglars with the PvP set can exceed or equal Champion DPS now (and their superior aggro dump is a big reason for this); and they provide far greater group benefits.
Really? You can't think of any reasons to stack the best AoE class in the game that also has heavy armor mitigations? Let's point out a few examples:
Spider boss, Helegrond: Continual waves of spider adds pop up, that need to be killed quickly or the group gets overrun.
Watcher, phase 2-3 transition: 12 tentacles pop up, one below each person in the raid, which need to be AoE'd down quickly.
Mistress phase 3-4 transition: 3 waves of cleaving orcs show up which need to be killed before the boss becomes active again. Phase 4: 3 adds come out and mind control 3 players in the group. If they aren't killed in 10 seconds, the mind controlled players die. Boss can be damaged throughout phase 4.
Different class strengths are different?
Throughout the life of the game, the viability of burg stacking has always been lowest when encounters are about lots of adds; hunters, champs, RKs, and even DPS LMs are better at handling those types of encounters than burgs.
*Which was my point to begin with.*
I guess if your only raiding experience with this game is just this cluster, then I could see why you're blowing this out of proportion. Don't get me wrong, something's definitely broken here, but it's not the class. There's a myriad of ways that the devs have designed past or could design future encounters that makes it so that burg stacking isn't the only viable plan. Heck, it's not even viable thought this ONE raid (as others have said many, many times).
Originally Posted by Elrantiri
2) I thought it was fairly obvious the fight was broken when I made this thread, which is so much more the reason Burglar Stacking should not be a viable tactic for ignoring game mechanics and kill it anyway.
That made absolutely zero sense. Oh and this:
Originally Posted by Elrantiri
decrease the power of each additional debuff (first RW is 10%, next 8%, next 6%)
...is already how tricks and reveal weakness work. You're not even aware of how the class functions to begin with?
Challenge accepted. Again though, the point that you're trying to make still, at best, demonstrates that there's a broken set, not a broken class.
Completely incorrect.
Really? You can't think of any reasons to stack the best AoE class in the game that also has heavy armor mitigations? Let's point out a few examples:
Spider boss, Helegrond: Continual waves of spider adds pop up, that need to be killed quickly or the group gets overrun.
Watcher, phase 2-3 transition: 12 tentacles pop up, one below each person in the raid, which need to be AoE'd down quickly.
Mistress phase 3-4 transition: 3 waves of cleaving orcs show up which need to be killed before the boss becomes active again. Phase 4: 3 adds come out and mind control 3 players in the group. If they aren't killed in 10 seconds, the mind controlled players die. Boss can be damaged throughout phase 4.
Different class strengths are different?
Yeah lets focus on raids that are no longer the current raid cluster just to make a point.
Originally Posted by scrubmonkey
Throughout the life of the game, the viability of burg stacking has always been lowest when encounters are about lots of adds; hunters, champs, RKs, and even DPS LMs are better at handling those types of encounters than burgs.
*Which was my point to begin with.*
I guess if your only raiding experience with this game is just this cluster, then I could see why you're blowing this out of proportion. Don't get me wrong, something's definitely broken here, but it's not the class. There's a myriad of ways that the devs have designed past or could design future encounters that makes it so that burg stacking isn't the only viable plan. Heck, it's not even viable thought this ONE raid (as others have said many, many times).
No?
3-5 burglars @ Lightning is viable.
3-7 Burglars @ Acid is very viable.
3-4 Burglars @ F+F is required until proven otherwise.
3 Burglars @ Shadow = not so much, 2 burglars and 3 ranged DPS is better.
2-3 Burglars @ Saruman = viable. I've only seen runs with at most 2 Burglars and 1 Champion but I dont see why the Champion wouldn't be replacable with a Burglar if you wanted to and then let a Hunter tank the shadow.
That's 2-7 Burglars in each of the 5 raid bosses in the current raid cluster.
Originally Posted by scrubmonkey
That made absolutely zero sense. Oh and this:
Oh but it does. The fight is broken, it is not possible to complete the way the Devs intended, by making use of both rage decreasing mechanics. By stacking Burglars you can avoid even having to think about the second way of decreasing Rage because the first boss will be dead before it happens.
Originally Posted by scrubmonkey
...is already how tricks and reveal weakness work. You're not even aware of how the class functions to begin with?
It is not, take your relativity &&&& out of here. Each RW is 10% extra incoming damage added additively. Just because it's not added multiplicatively does not make each RW have less effect.
If someone does 2000 DPS, he will do 2200 DPS with 1 RW, 2400 DPS with 2 RW, 2600 DPS with 3 RW - each RW has the exact same effect on his DPS.
Last edited by Elrantiri; Jun 25 2012 at 01:47 PM.
Yeah lets focus on raids that are no longer the current raid cluster just to make a point.
Yet you're focusing on a broken raid/armour set that is soon to be out of date to prove a point
Still waiting for you post how many people disagree with your idea/thoughts too, also considering this thread is a representation of the whole burglar & raiding community, i think the numbers will seem legit.
Yet you're focusing on a broken raid/armour set that is soon to be out of date to prove a point
Not really, I'm focusing more on the stacking of debuffs which has been here ever since Beta as far as I know. The armor set just took it one step too far, giving Burglars a much bigger advantage than they have ever had before.
Originally Posted by AkasaSon
Still waiting for you post how many people disagree with your idea/thoughts too, also considering this thread is a representation of the whole burglar & raiding community, i think the numbers will seem legit.
Why should I? You said it was 1% saying "Nerf Burglar" and 99% against, there was about 100 posts at the time and since at least 12 posters agreed with me, that can never be 1% = You are wrong.
You can go count them yourself even though there's no point - this is not democracy, it's arguing whether Burglars should be nerfed or not, it does not matter if there are 10 or a million who thinks something if they are wrong.
Last edited by Elrantiri; Jun 25 2012 at 10:23 AM.
Yet you're focusing on a broken raid/armour set that is soon to be out of date to prove a point
Wasn't planning to post in this thread, but you're wrong. The pvp set will just be boosted to level 85 like previous pvp sets have been i'm sure. Regardless, there will be Burglar's who will continue to macro it in until the game ends, the level cap increase changes nothing one way or another.
Wasn't planning to post in this thread, but you're wrong. The pvp set will just be boosted to level 85 like previous pvp sets have been i'm sure. Regardless, there will be Burglar's who will continue to macro it in until the game ends, the level cap increase changes nothing one way or another.
Really, do you have any proof or are you realising you've just broken the terms you or your friends in closed Beta agreed to?
Originally Posted by Elrantiri
Why should I?
You're bring factual numbers into your argument, if you're willing to count those that agree with you but not those that do then excuse me whilst i facepalm.
Really, do you have any proof or are you realising you've just broken the terms you or your friends in closed Beta agreed to?
Which seems more likely to you:
1) Turbine will invest in designing and testing brand new set bonuses for the PvP sets
2) Turbine will upgrade the stats some and give Audacity 2 to the sets with existing bonuses, and allow the set pieces to mix and match for bonus purposes as you upgrade them one at a time.
Me, I'll bet on 2. Not in any "beta", but it seems like common sense to me. And the mix and match while still getting set bonuses as you replace pieces seems like a real feature...
Really, do you have any proof or are you realising you've just broken the terms you or your friends in closed Beta agreed to?
It's what they did from 65 to 75 afaik, it's fairly plausible they'll do that again. Any way, as with the Captain -% Defeat Event cooldown appearing on several sets, the same may end up for the Burglar sets in the future.
Originally Posted by AkasaSon
You're bring factual numbers into your argument, if you're willing to count those that agree with you but not those that do then excuse me whilst i facepalm.
I only counted the number of agreeing fellows in here to prove you wrong when you say it's 99% versus 1% as that is clearly not the case. With 12 people in here agreeing with me there'd have to be 1287 posters in here disagreeing with me and with 100 some posts in here that's just not possible. Sadly all of your facepalming must have caused some head trauma if you cannot see this is the case without having to count the disagreeing people.
Last edited by Elrantiri; Jun 25 2012 at 12:26 PM.
Yeah lets focus on raids that are no longer the current raid cluster just to make a point.
I'm demonstrating that it's not the class that is broken, because there are several things that counter burg stacking throughout the history of the game.
You're trying to propose all these changes to the class, yet can't demonstrate that it's the CLASS that's broken.
How is that hard to understand? Did I lose you somewhere?
Originally Posted by Elrantiri
No?
3-5 burglars @ Lightning is viable.
3-7 Burglars @ Acid is very viable.
3-4 Burglars @ F+F is required until proven otherwise.
3 Burglars @ Shadow = not so much, 2 burglars and 3 ranged DPS is better.
2-3 Burglars @ Saruman = viable. I've only seen runs with at most 2 Burglars and 1 Champion but I dont see why the Champion wouldn't be replacable with a Burglar if you wanted to and then let a Hunter tank the shadow.
That's 2-7 Burglars in each of the 5 raid bosses in the current raid cluster.
1.to have need of; need:
2.to call on authoritatively
3.to ask for authoritatively or imperatively
4.to impose need or occasion for; make necessary or indispensable
5.to call for or exact as obligatory; ordain
No one's disputing that REQUIRING burgs for one fight = a broken fight, but how is it that burg stacking is a problem if it's VIABLE? You can't call the CLASS broken if you can't demonstrate that.
Originally Posted by Elrantiri
It is not, take your relativity &&&& out of here. Each RW is 10% extra incoming damage added additively. Just because it's not added multiplicatively does not make each RW have less effect.
If someone does 2000 DPS, he will do 2200 DPS with 1 RW, 2400 DPS with 2 RW, 2600 DPS with 3 RW - each RW has the exact same effect on his DPS.
Very easy to test. Believe me, I'm not just being pedantic. It's the entire breadth of your argument that I'm questioning; you're calling for sweeping changes to things that you don't even seem to understand the basics of.
Really, do you have any proof or are you realising you've just broken the terms you or your friends in closed Beta agreed to?
I suggest that they may do something they've done before and you pull the beta card straight out, how interesting.
And also, I don't have any proof that Burglar's will continue to macro it in regardless of its level, that's just an obvious fact. As I said, if they increase the level of the armour most Burglar's will continue using it, if they don't increase the level of the armour, most Burglar's will macro it in. Either way, it changes nothing. (less burglar's will macro it, but it will still be around enough to make a difference). Either way, if you think the set is OP, it needs to be nerfed.
I'm demonstrating that it's not the class that is broken, because there are several things that counter burg stacking throughout the history of the game.
You're trying to propose all these changes to the class, yet can't demonstrate that it's the CLASS that's broken.
How is that hard to understand? Did I lose you somewhere?
Oh but I did, even in my very first post.
Burglar Stacking allows Burglars to do substantially more DPS than if you stacked e.g. Hunters. Zombie Columbus stated Hunters should do more DPS than Burglars a long time ago, and this time I'll quote more of his post:
Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus
No. Burglar DPS < Hunter DPS.
Now this is a deep and relevant question. A direction we are going in as a team, is to allow more classes to preform a competent secondary DPS role. This has a danger: besides an occasional CC, our damage dealing classes have little utility. As such, bringing a class like the Bulgar to Hunter DPS levels would make for horrible imbalance, unless the Hunter simultaneously received a suite of tools and tricks as deep as the Burglars. It is unlikely we would want to make a change that impactful, so the secondary DPS classes will have to remain secondary. That said, getting closer to top tier damage then they were before has been one of our goals for such classes.
Yes, it is a difficult balancing act: buff them too far, and pure damage dealers become less valuable. However, it is a balancing act that we are moving forward with. This means a few things. First, as can be seen in this update with the changes to stances, additional AOE capabilities, depth added to the Trapper line and the changes to the Champion, we are adding more options to our DPS classes. We're not turning them into hybrids by any stretch, but peppering in some additional variety. Second, the dps on "secondary" classes will be inched up on a class by class basis. Third, the primary damage dealers should always be capable of a respectable step above the secondaries. I very much understand the concerns you bring up here, and I share them.
Until a few weeks after launch, try not to put too much faith proclamations made on these forums about how much or little damage one class or another does (exhibit A: claims that 65 RK's out damage 75 Hunters.) RoI has a lot of deep level changes to the whole game. While we have our own internal testing as well as beta, you all will be the ones who really figure out how to make these classes run optimally. If after that, Hunters are getting out dpsed by Burglars (or any other non-dps class) then we will make appropriate changes.
You should especially note the part I've marked with bold.
This fact alone is plenty of reasoning (at least to me) that Burglars should be nerfed and not the instances.
1.to have need of; need:
2.to call on authoritatively
3.to ask for authoritatively or imperatively
4.to impose need or occasion for; make necessary or indispensable
5.to call for or exact as obligatory; ordain
No one's disputing that REQUIRING burgs for one fight = a broken fight, but how is it that burg stacking is a problem if it's VIABLE? You can't call the CLASS broken if you can't demonstrate that.
You seriously need to read the posts I am quoting instead of taking it out of context:
Originally Posted by scrubmonkey
I guess if your only raiding experience with this game is just this cluster, then I could see why you're blowing this out of proportion. Don't get me wrong, something's definitely broken here, but it's not the class. There's a myriad of ways that the devs have designed past or could design future encounters that makes it so that burg stacking isn't the only viable plan. Heck, it's not even viable thought this ONE raid (as others have said many, many times).
He(EDIT: ah, it's you again) says Burglar stacking is not even viable for this raid, I say Burglar Stacking is viable for at least 4 of the 5 bosses in there. That has absolutely NOTHING to do about whether I think Burglars are OP or not.
Originally Posted by scrubmonkey
You have no idea then.
First reveal weakness: 10% + 100% = 110% damage, +10% bonus.
Second reveal weakness: 10% / (100% + 10%) = 9.09%
Third: 10% / (110% + 10%) = 8.33%
Counter D works the same way.
Very easy to test. Believe me, I'm not just being pedantic. It's the entire breadth of your argument that I'm questioning; you're calling for sweeping changes to things that you don't even seem to understand the basics of.
There is no need to test it as you are ignoring my point. It makes no sense to look at the percentages as if the following RWs are added multiplicatively because they are not - they are added additively. As long as you cannot understand that there's no reasoning with you.
Anyway, lets use your % to show my point:
I just used an example with a toon doing 2000DPS.
First RW adds 10%, resulting in 2200DPS as I wrote in my previous post.
Next RW adds 9.09% damage, 2200DPS + 9.09% = 2399.98 damage. In my previous post, I said the second RW would make the toon do 2400 DPS, meaning I am a massive 0.02DPS off compared to your numbers.
Third RW adds 8.33% you say, 2399.98 + 8.33% = 2599.898. In my previous post, I said the third TW would make the toon do 2600 DPS, I am 0.102 DPS off now.
With differences of this size rounding issues can easily be blamed, meaning I get the very same numbers as you do. How is that NOT understanding how RW works?
Last edited by Elrantiri; Jun 25 2012 at 01:42 PM.
Burglar Stacking allows Burglars to do substantially more DPS than if you stacked e.g. Hunters. Zombie Columbus stated Hunters should do more DPS than Burglars a long time ago, and this time I'll quote more of his post:
Lol... you would have to take what ZC said very, very literally to believe that this is cause for a nerf.
Son, you don't have a leg to stand on.
If I knew that this was just a hunter whinefest thread in disguise, I wouldn't have even bothered.
No?
3-5 burglars @ Lightning is viable.
3-7 Burglars @ Acid is very viable.
3-4 Burglars @ F+F is required until proven otherwise.
3 Burglars @ Shadow = not so much, 2 burglars and 3 ranged DPS is better.
2-3 Burglars @ Saruman = viable. I've only seen runs with at most 2 Burglars and 1 Champion but I dont see why the Champion wouldn't be replacable with a Burglar if you wanted to and then let a Hunter tank the shadow.
That's 2-7 Burglars in each of the 5 raid bosses in the current raid cluster.
With the exception of F&F, you could replace "Burglar" with "Hunter/Champ/RK" in all of those fights and still do just fine (i.e., have viable groups). Sure, you wouldn't be zerging Acid, but dealing with the adds and jumping in circles isn't terribly difficult - it just takes a few minutes longer. What exactly is your point regarding all the non-F&F bosses?
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
Lol... you would have to take what ZC said very, very literally to believe that this is cause for a nerf.
Son, you don't have a leg to stand on.
If I knew that this was just a hunter whinefest thread in disguise, I wouldn't have even bothered.
Except it is not a Hunter whinefest - in fact, I think Hunters are very well placed compared to Champions and Rune-keepers, the other primary DPS classes of this game. It is only the Burglars sticking out.
You can see Champions, even Burglars, in this thread saying the Burglars should have a nerf in some way - though the Burglars mostly point at the Unseen set rather than removing debuff stacking.
Say whatever you want, but you're being ignorant if you cannot see Burglars are doing more DPS than they should be capable of.
Originally Posted by Lestache
With the exception of F&F, you could replace "Burglar" with "Hunter/Champ/RK" in all of those fights and still do just fine (i.e., have viable groups). Sure, you wouldn't be zerging Acid, but dealing with the adds and jumping in circles isn't terribly difficult - it just takes a few minutes longer. What exactly is your point regarding all the non-F&F bosses?
You cant be bothered to read the quote above that? scrubmonkey wrote:
Originally Posted by scrubmonkey
I guess if your only raiding experience with this game is just this cluster, then I could see why you're blowing this out of proportion. Don't get me wrong, something's definitely broken here, but it's not the class. There's a myriad of ways that the devs have designed past or could design future encounters that makes it so that burg stacking isn't the only viable plan. Heck, it's not even viable thought this ONE raid (as others have said many, many times).
Saying Burglar Stacking is not viable for this raid is just wrong and that is what I pointed out by explaning how many Burglars can be put in a raid and still do the content.
Last edited by Elrantiri; Jun 25 2012 at 01:35 PM.
You cant be bothered to read the quote above that? scrubmonkey wrote:
Saying Burglars are not viable for this raid is just wrong and that is what I pointed out by explaning how many Burglars can be put in a raid and still do the content.
I did read his quote a few times, and got hung up on the "only viable method" part, so I didn't notice that you were responding mostly to his last sentence that you bolded. Fair enough.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
I did read his quote a few times, and got hung up on the "only viable method" part, so I didn't notice that you were responding mostly to his last sentence that you bolded. Fair enough.
Ah ok. I've put the last sentence in bold in that post as well so it's a bit easier to read now.
Notice how I barely mention Champs. That's another reason I think Burglars should be nerfed a bit, I really dont see where Champions show their worth apart from AoE'ing the trash pulls before the bossfights. They're being outDPSed by a debuffer class when we're talking 1 target at a time.
I think you are discounting the usefulness of Rend and Ebb
I will never understand why a player would request a nerf for another class. Having fun doesn't seem to be relevant, only the competition, even in a PvE game. So burgs can shine in one or two instances. I say cool! The OP seems to even have a burg as well! Double cool!... NOT.
RW + CD is clearly better than Improved Rend (although I do always make sure to keep the armor debuff up).
As for the second one, you're only looking at it from the point of view of the person using the skill. I know from the thread that spurred you to make this thread that Hunters are concerned about not having a good aggro management skill. Well, if you have a Champ (or Champs) in your raid it's a heck of a lot more help to you and the tank than having Burgs is. Provoke is a joke threat-wise, especially compared to the aggro a Champ can dump onto the tank with Ebbing Ire.
In fact, note that the preferred method for a Guardian holding aggro in an Acid Zerg (or any front-loaded DPS encounter) requires the use of a Champ ebbing. A Burg HIPSing does nothing for the tank relative to the rest of the group.
You're also discounting the fact that using HIPS takes a Burg out of Mischief. Not a big deal in F&F, but it has been the primary stance in previous raids and we still use it for the last three phases of Saruman (at least, the Burg who has the multi-target Riddle set bonus does). It's quite possible that future raids will ask Burgs to be in Mischief during boss fights again - in which case, Burgs would find themselves with worse aggro management tools than Hunters have.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
well that's a nice little shortcut to making your point i can has ?
It is not as good a "shortcut" as saying Burglar Stacking isnt viable "thought" in ToO - because they are.
Originally Posted by scrubmonkey
Heck, it's not even viable thought this ONE raid (as others have said many, many times).
As with your kinnies, feel free to prove me otherwise, that Fire and Frost Challenge can be done with less than 3 Burglars, or even "easily done with 2 burglars" as your kinnie said.
Originally Posted by Lestache
Two easy choices indeed:
Burg - 1
Champ - 1
RW + CD is clearly better than Improved Rend (although I do always make sure to keep the armor debuff up).
As for the second one, you're only looking at it from the point of view of the person using the skill. I know from the thread that spurred you to make this thread that Hunters are concerned about not having a good aggro management skill. Well, if you have a Champ (or Champs) in your raid it's a heck of a lot more help to you and the tank than having Burgs is. Provoke is a joke threat-wise, especially compared to the aggro a Champ can dump onto the tank with Ebbing Ire.
I am not. I know Ebb is useful for aggro management, but
1. It is not enough - I can promise you 1 or 2 Ebbs during that fight wont keep a Hunter from grabbing aggro if he is to do the same DPS as what a Burglar brings in there. I doubt even the Champ Ebbing can avoid grabbing aggro if he is to do 4-5k DPS (which I guess is why some kins use Champs for tanking it)
2. Why bother with Ebb if you can just stack Burglars and get it done faster?
Originally Posted by Lestache
In fact, note that the preferred method for a Guardian holding aggro in an Acid Zerg (or any front-loaded DPS encounter) requires the use of a Champ ebbing. A Burg HIPSing does nothing for the tank relative to the rest of the group.
You're also discounting the fact that using HIPS takes a Burg out of Mischief. Not a big deal in F&F, but it has been the primary stance in previous raids and we still use it for the last three phases of Saruman (at least, the Burg who has the multi-target Riddle set bonus does). It's quite possible that future raids will ask Burgs to be in Mischief during boss fights again - in which case, Burgs would find themselves with worse aggro management tools than Hunters have.
I dont really see why the mischief Burglar would grab aggro though.
Last edited by Elrantiri; Jun 25 2012 at 03:19 PM.
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