I think I'm going to transfer to your server. Last night the lag was so bad I could barley break 2k DPS on my hunter. With 2 burgs. Buttons Don't work on Brandywine .
It's not just Brandywine, Yelk. It's across all the servers and it's been happening for several months now :-/
It's sort of random as to when it'll happen so sometimes people get lucky and have none on their raid.
There's a huge thread on it in the general forum if you want to check it out.
Today's update says that the Unseen set will remain as is for the next expansion.
Now--given that the one consensus we did manage on this thread was that the Unseen set is over-powered--can Champions/Hunters get corresponding single-target DPS increase (probably coupled with a better aggro dump) or superior raid utility?
Today's update says that the Unseen set will remain as is for the next expansion.
Now--given that the one consensus we did manage on this thread was that the Unseen set is over-powered--can Champions/Hunters get corresponding single-target DPS increase (probably coupled with a better aggro dump) or superior raid utility?
Wait, you want hunters to be addressed by devs? IMPOSSIBLE!
Today's update says that the Unseen set will remain as is for the next expansion.
Now--given that the one consensus we did manage on this thread was that the Unseen set is over-powered--can Champions/Hunters get corresponding single-target DPS increase (probably coupled with a better aggro dump) or superior raid utility?
Well, if we're willing to grind for 5 pieces of PvP armor, we Champs can turn into one-button-spamming Remorseless bots if we want to. It'd be interesting to see how much DPS we can pump out hitting Remorseless every 1.8s.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
While I did see the return of the Unseen set coming, that update about Remorseless strike is rather surprising. Oh well, at least Hunters will keep their -25% CC duration and -% healing on Merciful shot as DPS 5-set bonuses.
The CC set with DS reset on NH and 0 focus cost on RoT has some potential though (for ettens), RoT can be a nice lifesaver in some situations but using most of your focus doing it renders you unable to do much afterwards. DS is always nice for being an annoying little Hunter in the moors, so that set just might be somewhat useful.
I've been playing burgs for over 4 years (as per my sig). During some periods burgs have been the must have darlings and during others they've been regarded as a broken waste of space but through it all our skills have been stackable so imho that in itself is not the problem.
I've also got all 8 other freep classes to 75 and have had them at level cap for quite some time (years). I don't claim uberness but I have seen changes to classes over time and in my opinion the burg is one of the LEAST changed classes indeed one of the most significant changes was when we were allowed to mezz non humanoids but given that our CC isn't the focus of this argument thats rather a moot point.
Why is it a good thing that our skills are stackable? because otherwise, at least historically, it was one thing that gave our supposed CC class a situational edge over LM (has better over all CC skills), cappie (telling mark isn't stackable but buffing abilities make them rightly group darlings) and , yes, hunters who have CC skills too on top of their DPS main role.
IMHO the problem lies not with the burglar but the burglar's gear and the specific instance/raid mechanics. Changing the burg is much too drastic and knee jerk because lets face it in a few weeks people will be herding off to Rohan, mounted or othrwise, when the relative value of each class could be shaken up entirely. Soon after that we'll get a new instance cluster which will require who knows what and as like as not because of levelling and new available gear the Unseen set will probably become passe.
As an aside I think much of the OP issue is that many classes are being driven to DPS build. This could be because a lot of people really like DPS style, PvP/PvMP, design of end game instances raids. A lot of individuality of the classes is being driven from the game and many players are more concerned with what they can crit for. Heals, buffs, debuffs , CC and so on being very much a secondary part of the game they are reluctant to use unless they have to.
That's obviously not the case, as according to the Ettenmoors Dev Diary they intend to keep the Unseen set's 5 piece bonus the same on the level 85 version of the Unseen set. Don't even know what to say about that -.-
That's obviously not the case, as according to the Ettenmoors Dev Diary they intend to keep the Unseen set's 5 piece bonus the same on the level 85 version of the Unseen set. Don't even know what to say about that -.-
Depends what the non moors armour is like, other class armours are like, non moors quest and future instances are like, new/improved skills for various classes are like. Too many variables to definately call in the shorter term but in the long term everything gear wise becomes history.
Depends what the non moors armour is like, other class armours are like, non moors quest and future instances are like, new/improved skills for various classes are like. Too many variables to definately call in the shorter term but in the long term everything gear wise becomes history.
For the new raid armor to be comparable to the Unseen set, it basically would have to be the most over-powered PvE armor set ever seen
Depends what the non moors armour is like, other class armours are like, non moors quest and future instances are like, new/improved skills for various classes are like. Too many variables to definately call in the shorter term but in the long term everything gear wise becomes history.
Unless the new Unseen set only gives quarter the stats (in terms of agility, Mastery and crit) of non PvP armor, I just can't see how it will not be massively overpowered and putting the Burg on top of the DPS food chain again. The only way for another set to beat this is to come along with an even more overpowered set bonus.
I've been playing burgs for over 4 years (as per my sig). During some periods burgs have been the must have darlings and during others they've been regarded as a broken waste of space but through it all our skills have been stackable so imho that in itself is not the problem.
"It's always been like that so it cant be the problem" yes?
Originally Posted by Catburg
I've also got all 8 other freep classes to 75 and have had them at level cap for quite some time (years). I don't claim uberness but I have seen changes to classes over time and in my opinion the burg is one of the LEAST changed classes indeed one of the most significant changes was when we were allowed to mezz non humanoids but given that our CC isn't the focus of this argument thats rather a moot point.
I agree, the Burglar is probably one of the least changed classes. My problem here is that the mechanics around the classes (especially the new itemization, new caps etc) were implemented without changing the Burglar much. The other classes were given changes to comply with the new mechanics, Burglars only received a nerf on Counter Defence BPE debuff.
Originally Posted by Catburg
Why is it a good thing that our skills are stackable? because otherwise, at least historically, it was one thing that gave our supposed CC class a situational edge over LM (has better over all CC skills), cappie (telling mark isn't stackable but buffing abilities make them rightly group darlings) and , yes, hunters who have CC skills too on top of their DPS main role.
Why is it a bad thing that Burglar skills are stackable? Because this way, you often want either 0 or 3+ Burglars for a given encounter.
However, because of the Unseen set, you'll rarely want less than 2 Burglars for ToO. There's no reason to replace a Burglar with a Champion for any of the bossfights as I see it.
I'd much rather see a class balance where you'd want either 1 or 2 Burglars, just like the Captain, the healer and the tanks.
Originally Posted by Catburg
IMHO the problem lies not with the burglar but the burglar's gear and the specific instance/raid mechanics. Changing the burg is much too drastic and knee jerk because lets face it in a few weeks people will be herding off to Rohan, mounted or othrwise, when the relative value of each class could be shaken up entirely.
I fully disagree. The concept of stacking gives us situations where you either want many or almost none of that class. Whenever debuff stacking is not a useful strategy, much of the advantage of a Burglar disappears. The gear and instances only changes whether you want 0 or many Burglars, only changing the debuff stacking can really change that from my point of view.
It does not even have to be a knee jerk, it just have to be a change. Something is removed, something else is added.
Originally Posted by Catburg
Soon after that we'll get a new instance cluster which will require who knows what and as like as not because of levelling and new available gear the Unseen set will probably become passe.
As the previous posts specifies, the PvE sets have to be pretty awesome to make up for the +20% dev chance. Devastating hits do double damage afaik, Burglars get buffs on top of that and some hits get bleeds etc on crit/dev, so the 20% dev chance is at least 20% more damage as I see it. So for any PvE set to take the crown, the set alone would have to increase the damage of a Burglar by 20% on top of the stats given by the Unseen set.
Originally Posted by Catburg
As an aside I think much of the OP issue is that many classes are being driven to DPS build. This could be because a lot of people really like DPS style, PvP/PvMP, design of end game instances raids. A lot of individuality of the classes is being driven from the game and many players are more concerned with what they can crit for. Heals, buffs, debuffs , CC and so on being very much a secondary part of the game they are reluctant to use unless they have to.
They have always been driven to DPS builds to some degree. No matter what instance you're doing and the requirements to heals, CC, debuffs etc you'll always want to do as much DPS as possible while taking care of those tasks.
There's always a hard limit when it comes to healing, tanking, CC'ing and debuffing, there's almost never a hard limit to DPS.
When your fellowship is fully healed, you dont gain anything from additional healing. You want to heal the required amount and no more.
When the tank has the necessary aggro, you dont gain anything from additional aggro. You just need enough to keep the mobs off the other classes.
The same goes for CC and debuffing, you're required to do X amount on Y targets and when you've done that, focus on more DPS.
For most instances, you can never have too much DPS. There'll be short moments where you dont need DPS, but the rest of the time you want as much damage as fast as possible.
That's obviously not the case, as according to the Ettenmoors Dev Diary they intend to keep the Unseen set's 5 piece bonus the same on the level 85 version of the Unseen set. Don't even know what to say about that -.-
I do - say, "I'm going to get the Moors Champ set and spam Remorseless all day."
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
Unless the new Unseen set only gives quarter the stats (in terms of agility, Mastery and crit) of non PvP armor, I just can't see how it will not be massively overpowered and putting the Burg on top of the DPS food chain again. The only way for another set to beat this is to come along with an even more overpowered set bonus.
Hmm. I can't wait for my +25% stackable up to four times, 30s duration, dev chance buff from Subtle Stab.
It really seems that people are largely upset over a set(s) of armour that most burgs will probably not obtain whilst doing instances/raids that most burgs probably won't do. Is it really necessary to nerf an entire class over a small niche activity? Yes it is end game but it isn't the whole game nor is it the most important part of the game for a whole heap of players. The stackability is less OP in the more mainstream areas of the game and is even desirable for mere mortals without being OTT
In my time burgs have gone from 2nd tier DPS to 3rd tier DPS to 1st tier DPS they've been up and down like a fiddler's elbow but then if you look at every other class forum at various times there have been whoops of delight and howls of anguish. You just know that burgs won't be top of the heap forever even without the proposed nerf the game's history has shown that time and time over.
If a player is looking to be permanently in demand then may I suggest they roll both a warden and a guard so they have the whichever flavour of the month tank to hand and similarly roll both a RK and minnie so that they can do likewise for a healer.
Ideally we should all (classes) have a chance to get slots in all instances but finding class balance is a constant struggle and is fluid never being entirely static.
End game changes, endgame is imminently going to change, given that we do not know how endgame will practically play out asking for class nerfs is a bit unecessary at this moment don't you think?
I have to agree that I am surprised that they are keeping the Unseen set bonus as I think the feedback is pretty overwhelming that it is OP for PvE and not all that useful for PvP (same is true for the cappy command set btw but to a lesser degree).
What is really amazing though is this 5-pc bonus on the champ set. As Thunderloin has mentioned, this has the potential to be just as ridiculously OP as the Unseen set. It would seem that, after RoR, champs and burgs are going to be top tier DPS and hunters and DPS RKs can go roll alts. At least RKs can heal.... And champs better get carpal tunnel gear now to prevent them having huge medical issues from pressing the remorseless button every 1.8s. Does Turbine provide worker's comp?
Just for the onfo, we did FF tonight with 2 burgs but niether had the pvp set.....
Nice job. So much for "consensus".
What exactly was the issue again?
I'll stand by my position that content can be developed to minimize any appreciable inherent issues with the current state of the Burglar. You can't take F/F as an example for anything because with the amount of time I've spent in there I come away feeling little more than that is one broke-&&& fight.
How much different a beast is it than an entire raid who buys every possible Store perk available before they go to it? If people want a tiny little I-might-win-now button, let them have it. Judging by the number of kins who have successfully beaten Acid or F/F challenge, it's really not as easy as plugging in 3-5 Burgs. Ever do Kalbak with almost all Hunters? Now that's a silly joke...
I have to agree that I am surprised that they are keeping the Unseen set bonus as I think the feedback is pretty overwhelming that it is OP for PvE and not all that useful for PvP (same is true for the cappy command set btw but to a lesser degree).
What is really amazing though is this 5-pc bonus on the champ set. As Thunderloin has mentioned, this has the potential to be just as ridiculously OP as the Unseen set. It would seem that, after RoR, champs and burgs are going to be top tier DPS and hunters and DPS RKs can go roll alts. At least RKs can heal.... And champs better get carpal tunnel gear now to prevent them having huge medical issues from pressing the remorseless button every 1.8s. Does Turbine provide worker's comp?
If it helps, Champs have been the best raid DPS class since at least MoM. Raid buffs help us more than anyone else, especially War Cry.
However, jwbarry has shown the willingness to create content that allows all classes to shine, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
Nothing in the Burg dev diary to suggest this might be addressed. I agree the reveal weakness stacking coupled with the devastating DPS single target figures has really killed this entire raid.
It's not just some bosses, everything is easier with multiple burgs. We managed to do Lightning Challenge, Acid Challenge, FF T2 and Shadow Challenge with only 1 burg and it was very tough but good fun. The Acid adds mechanic is quite well designed as is the whole wing. To have people run in with 4 or 5 burgs and kill it before the acid even rises seems like a waste of all that work. They could have just stuck a post in the ground and said do x damage in y time.
Shadow challenge would be nigh impossible without 2+ burgs, FF Challenge IS impossible without 3+ burgs. Acid is a faceroll with 5+ burgs.
Lightning would be a lot faster with lots of burgs therefore less things to kill you. Lightning actually has some cool mechanics in the fight but how often do they have any effect? Has anyone done T2 Lightning WITHOUT doing the challenge? Maybe if the boss moved every time the tank moved (rather than a 5 or 6 second delay allowing 1 tank method), and the tile with the most people standing on (or closest to the boss) was guaranteed to charge up then it would mean lots more moving around and repositioning. Maybe the Steam debuff would do something too.
Anyway, rant over. I really hope this gets fixed. All they need to do is stop burg skills stacking, no other classes debuffs stack so why should this one?
Lose = To suffer defeat or fail to win.
Loose = Not tight or released from a fastening or attachment.
Nothing in the Burg dev diary to suggest this might be addressed. I agree the reveal weakness stacking coupled with the devastating DPS single target figures has really killed this entire raid.
It's not just some bosses, everything is easier with multiple burgs. We managed to do Lightning Challenge, Acid Challenge, FF T2 and Shadow Challenge with only 1 burg and it was very tough but good fun. The Acid adds mechanic is quite well designed as is the whole wing. To have people run in with 4 or 5 burgs and kill it before the acid even rises seems like a waste of all that work. They could have just stuck a post in the ground and said do x damage in y time.
Shadow challenge would be nigh impossible without 2+ burgs, FF Challenge IS impossible without 3+ burgs. Acid is a faceroll with 5+ burgs.
Lightning would be a lot faster with lots of burgs therefore less things to kill you. Lightning actually has some cool mechanics in the fight but how often do they have any effect? Has anyone done T2 Lightning WITHOUT doing the challenge? Maybe if the boss moved every time the tank moved (rather than a 5 or 6 second delay allowing 1 tank method), and the tile with the most people standing on (or closest to the boss) was guaranteed to charge up then it would mean lots more moving around and repositioning. Maybe the Steam debuff would do something too.
Anyway, rant over. I really hope this gets fixed. All they need to do is stop burg skills stacking, no other classes debuffs stack so why should this one?
In this very thread a couple people have posted screenshots or links to screenshots of their F&F Challenge kills with only two Burgs - one group even stated that neither Burg was using the Unseen set.
However, let's keep focusing on Burgs so we can not draw attention to the proposed Blade-brother change that will give up to -10% attack duration to the, um, bladed brother. Yay for #1 raid DPS getting a boost!
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
Nothing in the Burg dev diary to suggest this might be addressed. I agree the reveal weakness stacking coupled with the devastating DPS single target figures has really killed this entire raid.
It's not just some bosses, everything is easier with multiple burgs. We managed to do Lightning Challenge, Acid Challenge, FF T2 and Shadow Challenge with only 1 burg and it was very tough but good fun. The Acid adds mechanic is quite well designed as is the whole wing. To have people run in with 4 or 5 burgs and kill it before the acid even rises seems like a waste of all that work. They could have just stuck a post in the ground and said do x damage in y time.
Shadow challenge would be nigh impossible without 2+ burgs, FF Challenge IS impossible without 3+ burgs. Acid is a faceroll with 5+ burgs.
Lightning would be a lot faster with lots of burgs therefore less things to kill you. Lightning actually has some cool mechanics in the fight but how often do they have any effect? Has anyone done T2 Lightning WITHOUT doing the challenge? Maybe if the boss moved every time the tank moved (rather than a 5 or 6 second delay allowing 1 tank method), and the tile with the most people standing on (or closest to the boss) was guaranteed to charge up then it would mean lots more moving around and repositioning. Maybe the Steam debuff would do something too.
Anyway, rant over. I really hope this gets fixed. All they need to do is stop burg skills stacking, no other classes debuffs stack so why should this one?
Ramble On was the first kin to do FF with only two burgs and now alot of other kins have done it. Ramble On has also Zerg Acid with only one burg, see above, and we have done Shadow T2CM way more times with only one burg than two, so where are you getting your info? You dont need to stack burgs to do OT T2CM.
Nothing in the Burg dev diary to suggest this might be addressed. I agree the reveal weakness stacking coupled with the devastating DPS single target figures has really killed this entire raid.
Only if you let it. It hasn't killed any other raid in the past 4 years, so it's more a design issue IMO.
Originally Posted by Wilksie
Shadow challenge would be nigh impossible without 2+ burgs
We've done it with one. Many people have. Hunters and heavies are your real value here IMO.
Originally Posted by Wilksie
FF Challenge IS impossible without 3+ burgs
Proven quite false.
Originally Posted by Wilksie
Lightning would be a lot faster with lots of burgs therefore less things to kill you.
No, you still get the same number of grates lit-up regardless and dealing with the Storm Edhuilans is basic stuff. Ever try Kalbak with 4+ Hunters? The boss never has to be moved. It's total cheese.
Originally Posted by Wilksie
Lightning actually has some cool mechanics in the fight but how often do they have any effect? Has anyone done T2 Lightning WITHOUT doing the challenge? Maybe if the boss moved every time the tank moved (rather than a 5 or 6 second delay allowing 1 tank method), and the tile with the most people standing on (or closest to the boss) was guaranteed to charge up then it would mean lots more moving around and repositioning. Maybe the Steam debuff would do something too.
While the grates seem to be random as to which light-up when, the Steam does have a noticeable (albeit mostly pointless) effect (especially when learning the fight). One tank is totally doable - especially when you take all Hunters as your DPS. Group sits at a remote location. Tank sits at a distance, never has to move, never has to worry about blowing the group up. Cake.
Originally Posted by Wilksie
Anyway, rant over. I really hope this gets fixed. All they need to do is stop burg skills stacking, no other classes debuffs stack so why should this one?
Because it's an integral piece of the design of the class. I doubt they'll ever change it.
One tank is totally doable - especially when you take all Hunters as your DPS. Group sits at a remote location. Tank sits at a distance, never has to move, never has to worry about blowing the group up. Cake.
No-one has to move with 1 tank and 11 other melee classes (if you like) behind the boss either.
No-one has to move with 1 tank and 11 other melee classes (if you like) behind the boss either.
This. Just have your tank position Kalbak near the border to the next tile (watch for the target circle around Kalbak not to cross or overlap the tile border, though) and get your guard in max melee distance in front of the boss, while the rest of your group sets up at max melee range behind the boss (you should be able co establish 11m distance between your tank and your melee DPS classes with this method, which is enough to avoid blowing up the group).
No-one has to move with 1 tank and 11 other melee classes (if you like) behind the boss either.
And you just sit there when your group's grate is the first grate (other than the tank's) to light up?
The issue isn't the tank blowing up. We can single-tank with melee classes just fine. 11 people standing on a lit up grate (should that happen) for the majority of the fight sounds like making it artificially hard on yourself.
With Hunters/Ranged, you just move off your grate when it lights up and the tank never has to move the boss.
And you just sit there when your group's grate is the first grate (other than the tank's) to light up?
The issue isn't the tank blowing up. We can single-tank with melee classes just fine. 11 people standing on a lit up grate (should that happen) for the majority of the fight sounds like making it artificially hard on yourself.
With Hunters/Ranged, you just move off your grate when it lights up and the tank never has to move the boss.
If you position it correctly, your grate won't light up until the end, and if it does light up early you can move to the right/left and still be in melee distance.
We normally set up like this. All 11 stand together in a tight group at 45 degrees to the boss (prevents being hit by lightning shatter). If all goes to plan and our tile doesn't charge up too quickly then the only people that need to move are the tank when he hits 9, and the person whose name gets called out. If our tile charges in the first 60% we move to position 2 or 3 depending on what is available.
Edit: Yes it did take a LONG time to build a 3D model of this room
Lose = To suffer defeat or fail to win.
Loose = Not tight or released from a fastening or attachment.
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