Thread: Stop Burglar Stacking from being a viable Strategy please

Originally Posted by Jamesm429

All of us, as RAIDING KINS of LOTRO, need to step up and tell JW that his numbers are wrong or did we all really miss something? You dont even have to tell us what we are missing, just admit we are ALL missing something.

Off topic; pretty sure JW has copped more than an earful from the raiding kins regarding F&F. Personally I think we are all missing something (combined with the thing we are missing being coded in a poor way that it is incredibly difficult to find). Now that the fight has been conquered there is very little reason for kins to waste time trying to flush out the "proper" way of doing it. I know my kin was of the attitude "Got the title, never going to bother with F&F CM again". The orrery would be a nice addition to the kin house though...

On topic; I have no issue with burgs stacking RW/CD. I do have an issue with the PvP set. It is far to powerful for PvE.

Okay, we got severely side-tracked. So let me attempt to bring the thread back to the original poster's fundamental points:

To be succinct, there are three inter-linked advantages that Burglars possess in a DPS race raid environment:

1. Burglar single-target DPS with the Unseen PvP armor set is on par with those of Champions and Hunters--two classes that have basically no raid utility other than DPS and hence are supposedly the top DPS classes.

2. Burglar single-target DPS in PRACTICAL or ACTUAL terms is HIGHER than Champions and Hunters due to their far superior aggro management skills--especially via Hide in Plain Sight (and hence Burglars can go "all-out" max DPS at all times in a way that Champions and Hunters may not be able to).

3. Burglars have far superior raid utility than either Champions or Hunters, since they bring crowd control and raid-wide DPS-boosting de-buffs to the table.

As a result of these three advantages combined, Burglars will ALWAYS be favored over other putatively DPS classes in DPS race raid environment.

Let me give you a rather telling and sad illustration. Yesterday, we did Acid T2 Challenge the "Zerg" way for the first time. Now, my main is a Champion that is almost certainly the highest DPS Champion on my server (2k average parse on Galtrev dummy--max at 2340 on very few attempts with current set-up--without even Controlled Blood Rage) and can't really be improved other than via Saruman cloak and a stat legacy with the Crystal of Remembrance. Yet, we basically unanimously determined that it was actually better to bring my newly-leveled, utterly feces-geared Burglar that barely does more than HALF of my Champion dummy DPS, because of the overall boost to the raid.

In addition, had our sole Hunter there (who is also incredibly well-geared and is a DPS monster as well--he's the only guy who's ever stolen the aggro off of me on the forge in the Foundry instance since I shed my morale-stacking build) finished his Burglar on time, he would have been there on Burglar, too!

Do we not see a problem with this picture? It is not only better to bring Burglars over Champions and Hunters to DPS races, but it is better to bring newly-leveled Burglars over Champions and Hunters that have basically reached the HIGHEST DPS ceiling for their classes!

Now, in terms of ways to fix this, I reiterate I don't like nerfs, because it leaves a sizable segment of the player-base unhappy. So I am not even asking for some of the radical nerfs like making Reveal Weakness and Counter Defense not stackable. (I can accept the Unseen set nerf, though I will be very unhappy since I am grinding for them now.)

Instead, once again, why not give more raid utility to Champions and Hunters and thereby make everyone happy? Even lore-wise, it wouldn't be too difficult to give, say, an "Embolden" buff to the Champion's group (let's say it gives half the advantage of the Fervour stance without the penalties--so 10 percent damage and -10 percent attack duration) and "Spot" buff to the Hunter (let's say it's a toggle raid de-buff that works like Reveal Weakness but say it gives more debuffs and--as a compensation--cannot be stacked).

I would also take a look at the threat management skills of Champions and Hunters again as well as a secondary concern. Right now raid DPS is way too high for even excellent tanks to manage. For instance, 25 percent Ebbing Ire dump after the initial Challenge runs out seems no longer sufficient for the Champion to control his aggro when he's approaching or going over 4k in a DPS race; and the same goes for Hunters when the threat dump is merely a temporary PERCEIVED, not actual, threat dump.

Would these two changes combined as a whole not represent an elegant, easy solution? Burglars would still maintain their current high DPS and have their far superior raid utility intact--though a bit lessened comparatively.

^exactly.

Originally Posted by Miretocot

Okay, we got severely side-tracked. So let me attempt to bring the thread back to the original poster's fundamental points:

To be succinct, there are three inter-linked advantages that Burglars possess in a DPS race raid environment:

1. Burglar single-target DPS with the Unseen PvP armor set is on par with those of Champions and Hunters--two classes that have basically no raid utility other than DPS and hence are supposedly the top DPS classes.

2. Burglar single-target DPS in PRACTICAL or ACTUAL terms is HIGHER than Champions and Hunters due to their far superior aggro management skills--especially via Hide in Plain Sight (and hence Burglars can go "all-out" max DPS at all times in a way that Champions and Hunters may not be able to).

3. Burglars have far superior raid utility than either Champions or Hunters, since they bring crowd control and raid-wide DPS-boosting de-buffs to the table.

As a result of these three advantages combined, Burglars will ALWAYS be favored over other putatively DPS classes in DPS race raid environment.

Let me give you a rather telling and sad illustration. Yesterday, we did Acid T2 Challenge the "Zerg" way for the first time. Now, my main is a Champion that is almost certainly the highest DPS Champion on my server (2k average parse on Galtrev dummy--max at 2340 on very few attempts with current set-up--without even Controlled Blood Rage) and can't really be improved other than via Saruman cloak and a stat legacy with the Crystal of Remembrance. Yet, we basically unanimously determined that it was actually better to bring my newly-leveled, utterly feces-geared Burglar that barely does more than HALF of my Champion dummy DPS, because of the overall boost to the raid.

In addition, had our sole Hunter there (who is also incredibly well-geared and is a DPS monster as well--he's the only guy who's ever stolen the aggro off of me on the forge in the Foundry instance since I shed my morale-stacking build) finished his Burglar on time, he would have been there on Burglar, too!

Do we not see a problem with this picture? It is not only better to bring Burglars over Champions and Hunters to DPS races, but it is better to bring newly-leveled Burglars over Champions and Hunters that have basically reached the HIGHEST DPS ceiling for their classes!

Now, in terms of ways to fix this, I reiterate I don't like nerfs, because it leaves a sizable segment of the player-base unhappy. So I am not even asking for some of the radical nerfs like making Reveal Weakness and Counter Defense not stackable. (I can accept the Unseen set nerf, though I will be very unhappy since I am grinding for them now.)

Instead, once again, why not give more raid utility to Champions and Hunters and thereby make everyone happy? Even lore-wise, it wouldn't be too difficult to give, say, an "Embolden" buff to the Champion's group (let's say it gives half the advantage of the Fervour stance without the penalties--so 10 percent damage and -10 percent attack duration) and "Spot" buff to the Hunter (let's say it's a toggle raid de-buff that works like Reveal Weakness but say it gives more debuffs and--as a compensation--cannot be stacked).

I would also take a look at the threat management skills of Champions and Hunters again as well as a secondary concern. Right now raid DPS is way too high for even excellent tanks to manage. For instance, 25 percent Ebbing Ire dump after the initial Challenge runs out seems no longer sufficient for the Champion to control his aggro when he's approaching or going over 4k in a DPS race; and the same goes for Hunters when the threat dump is merely a temporary PERCEIVED, not actual, threat dump.

Would these two changes combined as a whole not represent an elegant, easy solution? Burglars would still maintain their current high DPS and have their far superior raid utility intact--though a bit lessened comparatively.

Good summation, but one nitpick: Champ aggro shouldn't be an issue at all. Given the short length of the two encounters in question (Acid zerg: <100s, and; F&F first giant: <60s), if your tanks truly can't hold off a Champ doing 4k+ DPS, just have the Champ tank instead. I'm not talking about blue line tanking: I mean full on DPS mode CBR Fervour tanking.

I'm not advocating bumping the tank from the group, by the way: find another use for him (Shield Wall, for instance, if it's a Guardian).

Okay, a second nitpick: I still don't consider HIPS a superior aggro tool, for the simple fact that it becomes unusable when the Burglar has to be in Mischief. Obviously Acid and F&F don't require the Burg to be in Mischief, but previous fights have and, if jwbarry has some foresight, future fights will as well.

I do like the idea of giving Champs and Hunters some group-wide buffs, although we already have one with Improved Rend. Maybe Hunters can get something that reduces the group's miss chance.

Originally Posted by Lestache

Good summation, but one nitpick: Champ aggro shouldn't be an issue at all. Given the short length of the two encounters in question (Acid zerg: <100s, and; F&F first giant: <60s), if your tanks truly can't hold off a Champ doing 4k+ DPS, just have the Champ tank instead. I'm not talking about blue line tanking: I mean full on DPS mode CBR Fervour tanking.

I repeat: Even top tanks lose aggro in a Burglar stack situation. For an example, look at this video from the very kin that successfully completed Fire & Frost with 2 Burglars:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcbdE...feature=relmfu

Ramble On's tank seems to lose aggro at least three times (perhaps more but the LM AoE is often obscuring the view). You will see in the Fire & Frost Challenge that aggro was lost a few times as well.

And I am not sure if the Acid boss can be Fervour tanked, given that he hits rather hard. In general, Fervour tanks face the proverbial "between a rock and a hard place" problem in that if you increase DPS to maintain aggro, you will compromise survivability--and vice versa. But I confess I am not very experienced in Fervour tanking Orthanc.

Originally Posted by Lestache

Okay, a second nitpick: I still don't consider HIPS a superior aggro tool, for the simple fact that it becomes unusable when the Burglar has to be in Mischief. Obviously Acid and F&F don't require the Burg to be in Mischief, but previous fights have and, if jwbarry has some foresight, future fights will as well.

Once again I am talking about current end-game raid content. I have no idea what has been--and certainly not what will be.

Originally Posted by Lestache

I do like the idea of giving Champs and Hunters some group-wide buffs, although we already have one with Improved Rend. Maybe Hunters can get something that reduces the group's miss chance.

The armor reduction from Improved Rend pales in comparison to the LM armor de-buff, and my understanding is that a good portion of it is wasted by the the presence of the LM armor de-buff in actual raids.

Let's put it this way: Would you ever take a Champion to a raid primarily for the Improved Rend de-buff?

Originally Posted by Miretocot

Okay, we got severely side-tracked. So let me attempt to bring the thread back to the original poster's fundamental points:

To be succinct, there are three inter-linked advantages that Burglars possess in a DPS race raid environment:

1. Burglar single-target DPS with the Unseen PvP armor set is on par with those of Champions and Hunters--two classes that have basically no raid utility other than DPS and hence are supposedly the top DPS classes.

2. Burglar single-target DPS in PRACTICAL or ACTUAL terms is HIGHER than Champions and Hunters due to their far superior aggro management skills--especially via Hide in Plain Sight (and hence Burglars can go "all-out" max DPS at all times in a way that Champions and Hunters may not be able to).

3. Burglars have far superior raid utility than either Champions or Hunters, since they bring crowd control and raid-wide DPS-boosting de-buffs to the table.

As a result of these three advantages combined, Burglars will ALWAYS be favored over other putatively DPS classes in DPS race raid environment.

Let me give you a rather telling and sad illustration. Yesterday, we did Acid T2 Challenge the "Zerg" way for the first time. Now, my main is a Champion that is almost certainly the highest DPS Champion on my server (2k average parse on Galtrev dummy--max at 2340 on very few attempts with current set-up--without even Controlled Blood Rage) and can't really be improved other than via Saruman cloak and a stat legacy with the Crystal of Remembrance. Yet, we basically unanimously determined that it was actually better to bring my newly-leveled, utterly feces-geared Burglar that barely does more than HALF of my Champion dummy DPS, because of the overall boost to the raid.

In addition, had our sole Hunter there (who is also incredibly well-geared and is a DPS monster as well--he's the only guy who's ever stolen the aggro off of me on the forge in the Foundry instance since I shed my morale-stacking build) finished his Burglar on time, he would have been there on Burglar, too!

Do we not see a problem with this picture? It is not only better to bring Burglars over Champions and Hunters to DPS races, but it is better to bring newly-leveled Burglars over Champions and Hunters that have basically reached the HIGHEST DPS ceiling for their classes!

Now, in terms of ways to fix this, I reiterate I don't like nerfs, because it leaves a sizable segment of the player-base unhappy. So I am not even asking for some of the radical nerfs like making Reveal Weakness and Counter Defense not stackable. (I can accept the Unseen set nerf, though I will be very unhappy since I am grinding for them now.)

Instead, once again, why not give more raid utility to Champions and Hunters and thereby make everyone happy? Even lore-wise, it wouldn't be too difficult to give, say, an "Embolden" buff to the Champion's group (let's say it gives half the advantage of the Fervour stance without the penalties--so 10 percent damage and -10 percent attack duration) and "Spot" buff to the Hunter (let's say it's a toggle raid de-buff that works like Reveal Weakness but say it gives more debuffs and--as a compensation--cannot be stacked).

I would also take a look at the threat management skills of Champions and Hunters again as well as a secondary concern. Right now raid DPS is way too high for even excellent tanks to manage. For instance, 25 percent Ebbing Ire dump after the initial Challenge runs out seems no longer sufficient for the Champion to control his aggro when he's approaching or going over 4k in a DPS race; and the same goes for Hunters when the threat dump is merely a temporary PERCEIVED, not actual, threat dump.

Would these two changes combined as a whole not represent an elegant, easy solution? Burglars would still maintain their current high DPS and have their far superior raid utility intact--though a bit lessened comparatively.

False and stuff. Burgs can't go all out dps all the time. If, as you all believe, this pulls the boss, then the burg now either is hitting something from in front (and loses positional) or he has to HiPs to drop aggro. He then may be able to resume all-out aggro post-HiPs, but again, by that time a tank should have the target locked and champs and hunters should be able to go all out at this point as well. So the burg got, like, 30 seconds of superior dps? Either way, this is an inferior strat in the first place. Burgs have a neat little thing called provoke, and spending a few rotations provoking is a much better strategy than going crazy and then using HiPs. Plus this helps not only burgs but every other class, hunters and champs included, by locking the boss down on the tank.

Second, I think I read above that the hunters in the 2-burg CM takedown did 4.3 and the burg did 2.4k? Was this correct? I'm not seeing how this makes Burg DPS OP even with the pvp set. Which, btw, my own non-raid parsing increases my dps by maybe 300-400. Of course this is unbuffed and not in a raid, so I look forward to being able to see my numbers with my pvp set from the raid.

Third, champs do have other raid functions. They tank, so if a champ pulls he shouldn't need aggro dump if he knows how to play his class.

All that said, I appreciate your preference to help hunters and champs rather than nerf burgs.

Edited to add: In response to your statement that stacking burgs will necessarily cause tanks to lose aggro. Bad burgs. One provoke from each in the first rotation should solve this (especially if any of them have the legacy.)

Originally Posted by Doulos

Second, I think I read above that the hunters in the 2-burg CM takedown did 4.3 and the burg did 2.4k? Was this correct? I'm not seeing how this makes Burg DPS OP even with the pvp set. Which, btw, my own non-raid parsing increases my dps by maybe 300-400. Of course this is unbuffed and not in a raid, so I look forward to being able to see my numbers with my pvp set from the raid.

LOL, NO.

The Burglar with the PvP set did 4300.

And if you don't think this is over-powered, then I don't know what to say

Edit: I should add that in Ramble On's first run, all their 3 Burglars with the PvP set apparently did over 4k. So it's not an issue of one exceptional Burglar putting up anomalous numbers.

Originally Posted by Doulos

Third, champs do have other raid functions. They tank, so if a champ pulls he shouldn't need aggro dump if he knows how to play his class.

I don't understand what you mean here. I think you are saying either 1) a good Champion should not pull aggro or 2) a Champion should proceed to tank if he does pull aggro instead of dumping it back to the tank.

Neither of these are practical suggestions, I am afraid, in the Burglar stack zerg environment.

Originally Posted by Doulos

False and stuff. Burgs can't go all out dps all the time. If, as you all believe, this pulls the boss, then the burg now either is hitting something from in front (and loses positional) or he has to HiPs to drop aggro.

Oh right, we forgot that 1-2 seconds it takes for the Burglar to see he has aggro, hit HiPs and keep on DPSing. Clearly he cannot go all out all the time then.

Originally Posted by Doulos

He then may be able to resume all-out aggro post-HiPs, but again, by that time a tank should have the target locked and champs and hunters should be able to go all out at this point as well. So the burg got, like, 30 seconds of superior dps? Either way, this is an inferior strat in the first place. Burgs have a neat little thing called provoke, and spending a few rotations provoking is a much better strategy than going crazy and then using HiPs. Plus this helps not only burgs but every other class, hunters and champs included, by locking the boss down on the tank.

Provoke is useless when we're talking 4k DPS. In a 1 minute fight (first giant) there's not time to waste on silly provokes on the boss. Full DPS and HiPS if necessary.

Originally Posted by Doulos

Second, I think I read above that the hunters in the 2-burg CM takedown did 4.3 and the burg did 2.4k? Was this correct?

As far as I can see, they wrote that the Burglar was at 4.3k DPS when first giant died, 2.4k DPS when second giant died. So I'd say you're incorrect here.

Originally Posted by Doulos

I'm not seeing how this makes Burg DPS OP even with the pvp set. Which, btw, my own non-raid parsing increases my dps by maybe 300-400. Of course this is unbuffed and not in a raid, so I look forward to being able to see my numbers with my pvp set from the raid.

You're one of very few who does not see that then. No other class has an armor set (except Captains) that increases their DPS so dramatically compared to all other sets. It's a set that is gained through PvP, it's not really that useful in PvP and it's by far the best set in PvE. There's so much wrong here.

Originally Posted by Doulos

Third, champs do have other raid functions. They tank, so if a champ pulls he shouldn't need aggro dump if he knows how to play his class.

Unless you specifically aim to have a champ tanking (e.g. if you only go with 1 tank for F+F), it is almost never an advantage to have the champ tank. At lightning and acid boss the boss will knock the **** out of everyone near the champ, in fire and frost Burglars lose positional and may cause the giant to spawn a lot of grims. Champs can of course use bubbles, but they still take loads more damage than what an actual tank would take.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

As far as I can see, they wrote that the Burglar was at 4.3k DPS when first giant died, 2.4k DPS when second giant died. So I'd say you're incorrect here.

The full fight is not a continuous DPS situation; only the first giant kill is. So that is the relevant number.

Originally Posted by Miretocot

The full fight is not a continuous DPS situation; only the first giant kill is. So that is the relevant number.

It is indeed relevant, but Doulos wrote "Second, I think I read above that the hunters in the 2-burg CM takedown did 4.3 and the burg did 2.4k? Was this correct?" to which I add that I think he's incorrect as both DPS numbers come from the Burglar.

Originally Posted by Miretocot

Edit: I should add that in Ramble On's first run, all their 3 Burglars with the PvP set apparently did over 4k. So it's not an issue of one exceptional Burglar putting up anomalous numbers..

Who said that? We've never had 3 Burgs with PVP set on a run. Our succesful 3 Burg run was with 2 with PVP set, and as you can see on the Burg forums from a post of another very good Burg, he parsed 3.5k in his very own runs. The other PvP set Burg in our run isn't parsing 4k, and the non-PvP set Burg isn't parsing nearly as much as our CBR Champs. The PvP set is overpowered, but there really aren't that many Burgs out there parsing 4-5k with it.

Aggro is a big deal on the part of Tanks, btw. I know Champs/Hunters who can hit 4k too, and they don't pull aggro because our Guard(s) time their skills correctly.

For the record, in comparison, if we're talking about Champs.. Champs can and do hit really high numbers in Raids. 4k+. You'll also see how quite a few of the Kins who did FF CM used a Champ tank while that Champ tank did 3.5-4k DPS. Champs have a significant amount of utility and do huge DPS. There's nothing wrong with Champs in comparison to Burgs.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Unless you specifically aim to have a champ tanking (e.g. if you only go with 1 tank for F+F), it is almost never an advantage to have the champ tank. At lightning and acid boss the boss will knock the **** out of everyone near the champ, in fire and frost Burglars lose positional and may cause the giant to spawn a lot of grims. Champs can of course use bubbles, but they still take loads more damage than what an actual tank would take.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, we use a Champ tank for the first giant in F&F Challenge (CBR Fervour Champ). The Burgs don't lose positional because the Champ is out-DPSing them. The times I tanked it, I did have to use my force taunt occasionally in the first 10s or so, but that's it.

Also, as you well know, spawning a lot of grims is kind of the point with the first giant anyway.

Oh, and we still used two Guardians: one for the other giant, and one for grim-kiting duty.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

It is indeed relevant, but Doulos wrote "Second, I think I read above that the hunters in the 2-burg CM takedown did 4.3 and the burg did 2.4k? Was this correct?" to which I add that I think he's incorrect as both DPS numbers come from the Burglar.

Blame me for Doulos' misperception. He probably got that from my post in which I pointed out that one of the DPS classes did indeed hit 4.3k DPS, when I was considering the Burg a DPS class to kind of tweak you a bit.

Originally Posted by canyouaddcolour

Who said that? We've never had 3 Burgs with PVP set on a run. Our succesful 3 Burg run was with 2 with PVP set, and as you can see on the Burg forums from a post of another very good Burg, he parsed 3.5k in his very own runs. The other Burg in our run isn't parsing 4k. The PvP set is overpowered, but there really aren't that many Burgs out there parsing 4-5k with it.

Aggro is a big deal on the part of Tanks, btw. I know Champs/Hunters who can hit 4k too, and they don't pull aggro because our Guard(s) time their skills correctly.

For the record, in comparison, if we're talking about Champs.. Champs can and do hit really high numbers in Raids. 4k+. You'll also see how quite a few of the Kins who did FF CM used a Champ tank while that Champ tank did 3.5-4k DPS. Champs have a significant amount of utility and do huge DPS. There's nothing wrong with Champs in comparison to Burgs.

We should also point out that when we did it with 3 burgs, not only did 2 out of the 3 burgs have the pvp set, one cappy had the pvp set too and the 1st giant went down in 55 secs.

When we did it with 2 burgs and 2 champs, only one burg had the pvp set and NO cappy had the PVP set that night, but giant went down in 40 secs.

Originally Posted by canyouaddcolour

Who said that? We've never had 3 Burgs with PVP set on a run. Our succesful 3 Burg run was with 2 with PVP set, and as you can see on the Burg forums from a post of another very good Burg, he parsed 3.5k in his very own runs. The other PvP set Burg in our run isn't parsing 4k, and the non-PvP set Burg isn't parsing nearly as much as our CBR Champs. The PvP set is overpowered, but there really aren't that many Burgs out there parsing 4-5k with it.

I created a level 1 character on your server, because I had wanted to ask a few questions for clarification after watching your original Fire & Frost Challenge video. And I did get to talk to a Dwarf Guardian who said he was the main tank for that particular video.

He said you had 3 Burglars with the PvP set and all registered 4k-plus on the first giant. He may have been mistaken, and it's not a big deal if he did. But even if the number was 2, and not 3, it doesn't really detract about our argument regarding how over-powered Burglars become DPS-wise with that particular armor set--especially in conjunction with the superior aggro dump that Burglars possess relative to the other DPS classes.

Originally Posted by canyouaddcolour

Aggro is a big deal on the part of Tanks, btw. I know Champs/Hunters who can hit 4k too, and they don't pull aggro because our Guard(s) time their skills correctly.

But no matter how skilled the Guardian, he cannot do anything about skills missing. Moreover, there can be anomalous Devastate spikes that will make the Guardian lose the aggro, regardless of what he does. Even your Acid zerg video is proof of that.

Originally Posted by canyouaddcolour

For the record, in comparison, if we're talking about Champs.. Champs can and do hit really high numbers in Raids. 4k+. You'll also see how quite a few of the Kins who did FF CM used a Champ tank while that Champ tank did 3.5-4k DPS. Champs have a significant amount of utility and do huge DPS. There's nothing wrong with Champs in comparison to Burgs.

Yes, I know Champions do massive DPS--perhaps more than any other class single-target-wise. And yes, I know they can do 4k-plus.

But I would not say "a significant amount of utility" (aside from DPS) and certainly not on par with Burglars, as you claim. In fact, I frankly consider that claim mind-boggling, especially when we compare an Unseen set equipped Burglar v. Champion. Every Burglar brings crowd control and stackable de-buffs; not every end-game Champion tanks tier 2, and even those who do usually only tank certain wings.

Originally Posted by Miretocot

He said you had 3 Burglars with the PvP set and all registered 4k-plus on the first giant. He may have been mistaken, and it's not a big deal if he did. But even if the number was 2, and not 3, it doesn't really detract about our argument regarding how over-powered Burglars become DPS-wise with that particular armor set--especially in conjunction with the superior aggro dump that Burglars possess relative to the other DPS classes.

He's wrong. It was an assumption he made that was pretty far off the mark. We only have 2 Burgs who we ever take to FF CM with the PvP set, and our other PvP Burg does not do 4k DPS.

Never said the PvP set didn't need a nerf.

Originally Posted by Miretocot

But I would not say "a significant amount of utility" (aside from DPS) and certainly not on par with Burglars, as you claim. In fact, I frankly consider that claim mind-boggling, especially when we compare an Unseen set equipped Burglar v. Champion

Are you aware that I've said throughout this thread that the Unseen set is overpowered, and needs a nerf?

Champ: Heavy Armour, ability to DPS tank FF CM, AOE, ability to force-taunt single targets (believe it or not a crucial element in our FF CM/Saruman CM runs), help with fellowships aggro, Rend Armour debuff, etc. If we're going to talk about Crowd Control then AOE has huge relevance here.

Also, I never argued that their utility was on par with Burgs. Would you like to straw man some more? I said they're fine in comparison to Burgs. People are wanting to buff other classes or nerf Burgs simply because of the Unseen set. It's overpowered, but Burgs outside of it are pretty well balanced, and have always been extremely strong in single-target DPS races.

Your example of your Kin using your horribly geared (apparently) Burglar over your Champ would seem to have more to do with your own DPS or the aggro abilities of your Tank than with the Burg actually being an upgrade over a top-notch Champ, IMO. Considering you say your Burg is horrible.

Originally Posted by canyouaddcolour

Never said the PvP set didn't need a nerf.

Never implied you did

Originally Posted by canyouaddcolour

Are you aware that I've said throughout this thread that the Unseen set is overpowered, and needs a nerf?

No, but it's rather tedious to check what every poster has said in prior posts, and the same sin can be laid at your door as well!

Originally Posted by canyouaddcolour

Champ: Heavy Armour, ability to DPS tank FF CM, AOE, ability to force-taunt single targets (believe it or not a crucial element in our FF CM/Saruman CM runs), help with fellowships aggro, Rend Armour debuff, etc. If we're going to talk about Crowd Control then AOE has huge relevance here.

I've addressed pretty much everything you mention in this paragraph in prior posts, so I don't want to re-hash more than is necessary. Suffice to say: You mention things on Champion's favor that involve SITUATIONAL, LIMITED APPLICABILITY, whereas I emphasize things on Burglar's favor that are APPLICABLE AT ALL TIMES. In short, the sum of those aspects you mention does not in my opinion equal Burglar raid utility.

Originally Posted by canyouaddcolour

Also, I never argued that their utility was on par with Burgs. Would you like to straw man some more? I said they're fine in comparison to Burgs....

"Straw man"? To me "fine in comparison to Burgs" read like "on par" or "similar level."

Originally Posted by canyouaddcolour

Your example of your Kin using your horribly geared (apparently) Burglar over your Champ would seem to have more to do with your own DPS or the aggro abilities of your Tank than with the Burg actually being an upgrade over a top-notch Champ, IMO. Considering you say your Burg is horrible.

I submit, your honor, my Champion's DPS isn't an issue, as I parse higher unbuffed than any parse I've seen on the Champion forum on the Galtrev dummy. Nor is our tank aggro an issue since your own video shows that your tanks, too, lose aggro v. in a high DPS environment as well. Instead, we did the simple math. My Burglar adds 10 percent extra damage and 6 percent Crit chance to the raid. It seemed that this raid-wide boost translates to greater DPS than the superior individual DPS boost my Champion would bring over the Burglar. And I guess this is the kernel of the Champions' and Hunters' complaint against Burglars: Statistics-wise, they bring more DPS to raids than the DPS classes.

Originally Posted by Miretocot

I submit, your honor, my Champion's DPS isn't an issue, as I parse higher unbuffed than any parse I've seen on the Champion forum on the Galtrev dummy. Nor is our tank aggro an issue since your own video shows that your tanks, too, lose aggro v. in a high DPS environment as well. Instead, we did the simple math. My Burglar adds 10 percent extra damage and 6 percent Crit chance to the raid. It seemed that this raid-wide boost translates to greater DPS than the superior individual DPS boost my Champion would bring over the Burglar. And I guess this is the kernel of the Champions' and Hunters' complaint against Burglars: Statistics-wise, they bring more DPS to raids than the DPS classes.

I guess you missed this:

We should also point out that when we did it with 3 burgs, not only did 2 out of the 3 burgs have the pvp set, one cappy had the pvp set too and the 1st giant went down in 55 secs.

When we did it with 2 burgs and 2 champs, only one burg had the pvp set and NO cappy had the PVP set that night, but giant went down in 40 secs.

That is 15 secs faster with only 2 burgs and 2 champs? Please than explain that to us?

Come on, watch the videos yourself and explain how we did it faster with only 2 burgs..

Originally Posted by Jamesm429

I guess you missed this:

We should also point out that when we did it with 3 burgs, not only did 2 out of the 3 burgs have the pvp set, one cappy had the pvp set too and the 1st giant went down in 55 secs.

When we did it with 2 burgs and 2 champs, only one burg had the pvp set and NO cappy had the PVP set that night, but giant went down in 40 secs.

That is 15 secs faster with only 2 burgs and 2 champs? Please than explain that to us?

Come on, watch the videos yourself and explain how we did it faster with only 2 burgs..

We have done similarly fast runs with 3 Burgs, to be fair. Not getting the bubble skews it, it didn't matter to us since we had plenty of time to kill it had we gotten it, but bit of a skewed comparison. It does show that very good players are able to roughly make up for not having that extra PvP Burg.

Originally Posted by Jamesm429

I guess you missed this:

We should also point out that when we did it with 3 burgs, not only did 2 out of the 3 burgs have the pvp set, one cappy had the pvp set too and the 1st giant went down in 55 secs.

When we did it with 2 burgs and 2 champs, only one burg had the pvp set and NO cappy had the PVP set that night, but giant went down in 40 secs.

That is 15 secs faster with only 2 burgs and 2 champs? Please than explain that to us?

Come on, watch the videos yourself and explain how we did it faster with only 2 burgs..

I watched it actually before you even posted your initial post that you excerpted above. And what I saw seems to prove my point instead. In the 2 Burglar video, you had 2 tries where you couldn't kill the first giant on time due to bubble and succeeded only when there was no bubble; in the 3 Burglar video, you killed the giant through the bubble. In fact, your kin-mate in a subsequent post admits as much himself say it is a "skewed" comparison.

But even if your video evidence had actually verified your seeming claim that there is no palpable difference to the raid DPS when you sub in a Champion for a Burglar, it could have merely been one isolated good DPS streak. (Chance does some strange things: I've seen 70 percent Crit/Devastate rate on the first Giant once on my Champ with just two Burglars; and I have also seen 14 straight Crit/Devastates in another raid encounter). One swallow does not make a summer. Further, there are also many other reasons why your later tries would be successful with fewer Burglars--not the least among them being greater familiarity with the fight.

The bottom line question is: Would you actually argue that it is not more beneficial to take an Unseen set equipped Burglar to a DPS race than a Champion or a Hunter, abstracting everything else?

Originally Posted by Miretocot

I watched it actually before you even posted your initial post that you excerpted above. And what I saw seems to prove my point instead. In the 2 Burglar video, you had 2 tries where you couldn't kill the first giant on time due to bubble and succeeded only when there was no bubble; in the 3 Burglar video, you killed the giant through the bubble. In fact, your kin-mate in a subsequent post admits as much himself say it is a "skewed" comparison.

But even if your video evidence had actually verified your seeming claim that there is no palpable difference to the raid DPS when you sub in a Champion for a Burglar, it could have merely been one isolated good DPS streak. (Chance does some strange things: I've seen 70 percent Crit/Devastate rate on the first Giant once on my Champ with just two Burglars; and I have also seen 14 straight Crit/Devastates in another raid encounter). One swallow does not make a summer. Further, there are also many other reasons why your later tries would be successful with fewer Burglars--not the least among them being greater familiarity with the fight.

The bottom line question is: Would you actually argue that it is not more beneficial to take an Unseen set equipped Burglar to a DPS race than a Champion or a Hunter, abstracting everything else?

As raid leader, NO. I take a balanced group and only stack when we have too. You DONT HAVE TO ZERG Acid down, its what you guys wanted to do at the time for what ever reason. We have only zerg Acid 3 times, most other times 1 burg, 2 champ 2 hunters and some 2 burgs 2 champs one hunter. The problem I see is not the burgs, but the raid leaders that pick them over hunters and champs. If they think taking an extra burg is better than your champ doing the dps you say you can do, maybe you are running wth the wrong peeps.

And the first time we failed, I forgot to use ctg and the 2nd time we failed was because our burg died, if he did not die, we would have been fine.

Originally Posted by Miretocot

I watched it actually before you even posted your initial post that you excerpted above. And what I saw seems to prove my point instead. In the 2 Burglar video, you had 2 tries where you couldn't kill the first giant on time due to bubble and succeeded only when there was no bubble; in the 3 Burglar video, you killed the giant through the bubble. In fact, your kin-mate in a subsequent post admits as much himself say it is a "skewed" comparison.

Actually, this is incorrect. You'll notice the mention of '7 grims' in the followup video. One of our Burgs hadn't realised he wasn't standing in front, thus we suffered on healing, and DPS and would have gotten that Giant down in time had things gone correctly. Only time DPS was slow/a problem the whole night was the first run in which our Minstrel forgot to give CTG, was the first time for our Main-Tank doing FF CM on his Tank (he never lost aggro again) and again, the Burg was standing in front that attempt, too.

Originally Posted by Jamesm429

As raid leader, NO. I take a balanced group and only stack when we have too. You DONT HAVE TO ZERG Acid down, its what you guys wanted to do at the time for what ever reason. We have only zerg Acid 3 times, most other times 1 burg, 2 champ 2 hunters and some 2 burgs 2 champs one hunter. The problem I see is not the burgs, but the raid leaders that pick them over hunters and champs. If they think taking an extra burg is better than your champ doing the dps you say you can do, maybe you are running wth the wrong peeps.

Sigh: It seems like we are always talking past each other and not directly addressing the point raised.

I asked specifically what class you would take "abstracting everything else"--meaning from a pure raid efficiency viewpoint. Of course as a "raid leader" you want to have a balanced, all-inclusive group to make everyone happy and ensure no class is left out (which is what you said in one of the very earlier posts in the thread).

But for the last time: The issue is that an Unseen set-equipped Burglar brings far more raid DPS to the raid than a Champion or a Hunter, and this is likely the case even if the Burglar is not Unseen set-equipped. Consequently, from a pure raid efficiency viewpoint, the Burglar will be chosen over the Champion or the Hunter even for DPS reasons. I don't see how this is even a controversial point.

As for your ad hominem comments about the Acid zerg: We have actually not done the zerg way until yesterday, because we have up till now not had enough Burglars. But we wanted to try it for once, and it seemed like it was wise to stack as many Burglars as possible for that first try--just as you tried your first Fire & Frost Challenge with 3 Burglars, not 2. (And the fact that you tried it with 3 the first time--not 2--shows that you think an extra Burglar adds more raid DPS too.) And it wasn't the raid leader's idea alone: He in fact asked my opinion regarding which toon would add more DPS to the raid, and I answered the Burglar in no uncertain terms. And to me that is indicative of a very sad state of class balance that currently exists in the game.

Originally Posted by Lestache

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, we use a Champ tank for the first giant in F&F Challenge (CBR Fervour Champ). The Burgs don't lose positional because the Champ is out-DPSing them. The times I tanked it, I did have to use my force taunt occasionally in the first 10s or so, but that's it.

Also, as you well know, spawning a lot of grims is kind of the point with the first giant anyway.

Oh, and we still used two Guardians: one for the other giant, and one for grim-kiting duty.

Ehm yes, but I wrote that "unless you specifically aim to have a champ tanking", which is exactly what you're doing. Were you using a guardian for tanking the boss, you wouldn't really want the champion to begin tanking it out of a sudden.

Originally Posted by Lestache

Blame me for Doulos' misperception. He probably got that from my post in which I pointed out that one of the DPS classes did indeed hit 4.3k DPS, when I was considering the Burg a DPS class to kind of tweak you a bit.

Yeah that was cruel :P

As promised F/F T2C with 2 burgs and a balanced group. We were killing the boss around the 50 second mark but for some reason we were getting a bubble every single time and found if we killed it in 55-60 second range bubble happened not as often. Excuse my clicking of skills, I was playing my guardian whom I like never play . Alt run for the win.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9ElO...=youtube_gdata

Best of luck Ramble on 1 burg, don't think we will be attempting that as we need to start work on Saruman. 1 Burg acid would also be impressive, has anyone done that?

Originally Posted by YesMaam

As promised F/F T2C with 2 burgs and a balanced group. We were killing the boss around the 50 second mark but for some reason we were getting a bubble every single time and found if we killed it in 55-60 second range bubble happened not as often.

(Haven't seen the video yet however...) Were you able to kill the boss in time if a bubble was popped? Did the bubble immediately cause a you to reset or did you have the firepower to dps through it?

Originally Posted by YesMaam

As promised F/F T2C with 2 burgs and a balanced group. We were killing the boss around the 50 second mark but for some reason we were getting a bubble every single time and found if we killed it in 55-60 second range bubble happened not as often. Excuse my clicking of skills, I was playing my guardian whom I like never play . Alt run for the win.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9ElO...=youtube_gdata

Best of luck Ramble on 1 burg, don't think we will be attempting that as we need to start work on Saruman. 1 Burg acid would also be impressive, has anyone done that?

Gratz Yelk and thank you. We have done Acid with one burg tons of times the normal way. If you mean Zerg with one burg, no we have not, but we are thinking about trying it at some point. Good luck with Saruman

Originally Posted by wasteland

(Haven't seen the video yet however...) Were you able to kill the boss in time if a bubble was popped? Did the bubble immediately cause a you to reset or did you have the firepower to dps through it?

Yes we were able to burn through the bubble on best runs but I found it more effective and safe to purposely put more people on the grim/corruption removal focus and less DPS to have the kill 55-59 seconds and no bubble. More relaxed DPS results in no agro issues, 100% corruptions off, grims controlled quickly and efficiently ect. I have my doubts about burning the bubble with 1 burg, but you could probably avoid the bubble when attempting with 1 burg seeing as its going to take you closer to the 60 second mark every less burg you have.

In the video I posted we killed the boss at 59 seconds. The original video I would have posted was a much more smooth run, boss dead at 48 seconds. We had all grims dead boss was at 50k morale and the entire server froze for 18 seconds making us fail by a 2-3 second margin. I don't know if other servers experience this but I'd be interested to hear if we are the only one getting these lag spikes, we were very frustrated lag was the killer for that one

Originally Posted by YesMaam

We had all grims dead boss was at 50k morale and the entire server froze for 18 seconds making us fail by a 2-3 second margin. I don't know if other servers experience this but I'd be interested to hear if we are the only one getting these lag spikes, we were very frustrated lag was the killer for that one

Yup, we had that lag spike too. Frustrating's a lenient word... but, Grats on F&F anyhow!

Originally Posted by YesMaam

As promised F/F T2C with 2 burgs and a balanced group. We were killing the boss around the 50 second mark but for some reason we were getting a bubble every single time and found if we killed it in 55-60 second range bubble happened not as often. Excuse my clicking of skills, I was playing my guardian whom I like never play . Alt run for the win.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9ElO...=youtube_gdata

Best of luck Ramble on 1 burg, don't think we will be attempting that as we need to start work on Saruman. 1 Burg acid would also be impressive, has anyone done that?

Why do the captains both take so much damage at the beginning of the fight? Do you make them use In Harms Way and Last Stand at the beginning?

Originally Posted by Vysion34

Why do the captains both take so much damage at the beginning of the fight? Do you make them use In Harms Way and Last Stand at the beginning?

I like to pop them immediately before starting the boss, in case the giant decides to turn around and smack someone. I'll pop it again a second or two before grims spawn, since all skills have reset.

As for the bubble, it seems fast DPS causes a faster bubble, slower DPS causes a later bubble, somewhere between ~47 seconds to 60 seconds. It took a while find the sweet spot for our group makeup if we wanted to avoid a bubble.

Originally Posted by wasteland

(Haven't seen the video yet however...) Were you able to kill the boss in time if a bubble was popped? Did the bubble immediately cause a you to reset or did you have the firepower to dps through it?

hmm didnt have the best dps group, one pug and a couple switching to alts, but either way it's hard to gauge what we'd normally do when the server lags for 5-10s every run with an occasional total lagout

do any other servers lag like this besides BW?

Originally Posted by Jamesm429

Gratz Yelk and thank you. We have done Acid with one burg tons of times the normal way. If you mean Zerg with one burg, no we have not, but we are thinking about trying it at some point. Good luck with Saruman

ty my friend

Originally Posted by Miretocot

My Burglar adds 10 percent extra damage and 6 percent Crit chance to the raid. It seemed that this raid-wide boost translates to greater DPS than the superior individual DPS boost my Champion would bring over the Burglar. And I guess this is the kernel of the Champions' and Hunters' complaint against Burglars: Statistics-wise, they bring more DPS to raids than the DPS classes.

I honestly Do not get your point here. Burgs are support first and dps second correct? Isnt buffing the group (or debuffing the Mob) a support role? Sure it adds to group dps but its not direct dps from the Burg. Its a dps increase caused from the Debuff.

Originally Posted by Pokeytolman

I honestly Do not get your point here. Burgs are support first and dps second correct? Isnt buffing the group (or debuffing the Mob) a support role? Sure it adds to group dps but its not direct dps from the Burg. Its a dps increase caused from the Debuff.

Why would you bring a primary dps class if you can bring a secondary dps class that brings more dps to the raid?

secondary dps > primary dps. Seems a bit wrong, no? All classes have their niche for certain fights based off mechanics but stacking burglars has a much greater niche than all other classes imo.

Originally Posted by timmyloo22546

Why would you bring a primary dps class if you can bring a secondary dps class that brings more dps to the raid?

secondary dps > primary dps. Seems a bit wrong, no? All classes have their niche for certain fights based off mechanics but stacking burglars has a much greater niche than all other classes imo.

Again support is a burgs role. Debuffing is a burgs main support role ... they are increasing the entire fellowships dps not just theirs. Should there be a diminishing returns on stacking? Probably, but a debuff is a support function not dps. Plainly it is their job to do this as they are said to be masters of debuff and this is their main job in a fellowship. Or so it says in the lorebook. It isnt a primary dps function.

Originally Posted by Pokeytolman

Again support is a burgs role. Debuffing is a burgs main support role ... they are increasing the entire fellowships dps not just theirs. Should there be a diminishing returns on stacking? Probably, but a debuff is a support function not dps. Plainly it is their job to do this as they are said to be masters of debuff and this is their main job in a fellowship. Or so it says in the lorebook. It isnt a primary dps function.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but burgs have ALWAYS been a very versatile class, you could never at one time say that burgs are a debuffing class. Debuffing is not even close to a burgs strongest role. Like it or not, the class has been designed around heavy dps. Most of our LI legacies increase this dps, we have basically no legacies that help out with debuffing (other then duration).

Originally Posted by Seredic

Sorry to burst your bubble, but burgs have ALWAYS been a very versatile class, you could never at one time say that burgs are a debuffing class. Debuffing is not even close to a burgs strongest role. Like it or not, the class has been designed around heavy dps. Most of our LI legacies increase this dps, we have basically no legacies that help out with debuffing (other then duration).

I was responding to someone saying that using RW and cd by a burg is a dps role. My point is they are debuffs . If you are a qk burg as most are, yes dps is your main roll. But if you aren't debuffing with cd and rw you are not doing your full Job.

Originally Posted by Miretocot

The armor reduction from Improved Rend pales in comparison to the LM armor de-buff, ***and my understanding is that a good portion of it is wasted by the the presence of the LM armor de-buff in actual raids.***

Wouldn't that only be true if you reduced all mitigations to 0 (seems unlikely) or if the raid was doing common damage?

So I am only posting this to show that you do not need to stack burgs............ And thats all I am going to say..

Originally Posted by Jamesm429

So I am only posting this to show that you do not need to stack burgs............ And thats all I am going to say..

I think I'm going to transfer to your server. Last night the lag was so bad I could barley break 2k DPS on my hunter. With 2 burgs. Buttons Don't work on Brandywine .