Thread: Stop Burglar Stacking from being a viable Strategy please

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

It is not as good a "shortcut" as saying Burglar Stacking isnt viable "thought" in ToO - because they are.



As with your kinnies, feel free to prove me otherwise, that Fire and Frost Challenge can be done with less than 3 Burglars, or even "easily done with 2 burglars" as your kinnie said.

Your second quote is misattributed.

(Side note to Turbine - update your spell-checker so that it actually includes all English words. Misattributed is a word, and it's spelled correctly. :P)

Originally Posted by Lestache

Your second quote is misattributed.

(Side note to Turbine - update your spell-checker so that it actually includes all English words. Misattributed is a word, and it's spelled correctly. :P)

Yeah, I gotta stop posting and playing Ettens at the same time

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

7 kinships who have done Fire and Frost Challenge and posted in progression thread so far:

I saw the post title and knew it was going to be a hunter whining about Fire & Frost Challenge. The problem with F&F isn't burgs, it's F&F. Do you think raid groups prefer to stack burgs? No, they don't. But the fight is completely broken, has been since it was launched, and there's not even a hint of a fix in the future. Unfortunately, this is the only way to do the challenge.

The answer isn't to nerf burgs (they help your hunter do more DPS too). The answer is to make functional raid content that's more balanced and has been tested beyond punching numbers on a calculator.

Originally Posted by Yosoff

I saw the post title and knew it was going to be a hunter whining about Fire & Frost Challenge.

I saw your post and knew it was someone with a Burglar as his best geared toon.

Originally Posted by Yosoff

The problem with F&F isn't burgs, it's F&F.

The problem is both of them. We're also seeing Burglar stacking used to make other fights easier and avoid bossfight mechanics, Acid HM being the latest example and others, e.g. Thorog, are also mentioned earlier in this thread. Why waste time "fixing" this instances when they could all be fixed right away by removing RW and CD stacking?

Originally Posted by Yosoff

Do you think raid groups prefer to stack burgs? No, they don't.

Did you just speak on behalf of most if not all raid groups? Good job.

Originally Posted by Yosoff

But the fight is completely broken, has been since it was launched, and there's not even a hint of a fix in the future. Unfortunately, this is the only way to do the challenge.

And with Burglar Stacking making it possible to kill it, get the deed and the loot, there's even less incentive to fix it for other class setups.

Originally Posted by Yosoff

The answer isn't to nerf burgs (they help your hunter do more DPS too).

As I wrote in OP, Burglars can use HiPS to manage their aggro way more efficiently than any DPS class, increasing a Hunter, RK or Champions DPS to the ~4k DPS we see Burglars do, they will get aggro. For Champions you can help it by letting him tank the boss, RKs and Hunters cannot really do that. The answer is ALSO to nerf Burglars.

Originally Posted by Yosoff

The answer is to make functional raid content that's more balanced and has been tested beyond punching numbers on a calculator.

Obviously the bossfight should be more balanced and better tested than what has been done to Saruman and F+F Challenge, but we are still seeing Burglars take a substantial amount of the DPS slots at all of the bossfights because their DPS + the DPS they add to the group is higher than what any of the DPS classes can do without grabbing aggro.

I want the Burglar nerfed because it has stronger skills and PvP set than either Hunters, Champions and Rune-keeper despite not being a top tier DPS class.

Burgs not being a top tier DPS class is false. If it can equal the DPS of hunters, it's a top tier class. You must mean something different. I'm gonna take a gander and guess that you mean it shouldn't be a top tier DPS class. Why not? Because there are already enough top tier classes? Why not nerf champs or RK's or your class for that matter? Why should the Burg be the one nerfed? Because of some class description written over 4 years ago? Who decides what should and should not be top tier?

Meh. Sounds fishy to me. We are not primarily support classes. You must not believe this or you wouldn't be calling for a nerf to Reveal Weakness, a support skill. So which is it? Should we lose our DPS status or our Support ability? Your arguments seem inconsistent.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

It is not as good a "shortcut" as saying Burglar Stacking isnt viable "thought" in ToO - because they are.

isn't viable thought? not sure what you mean by that exactly

in any case, i didn't say burg stacking isn't viable, so im not sure if youre responding to me or referencing someone else...

Originally Posted by Doulos

Burgs not being a top tier DPS class is false. If it can equal the DPS of hunters, it's a top tier class. You must mean something different. I'm gonna take a gander and guess that you mean it shouldn't be a top tier DPS class. Why not? Because there are already enough top tier classes? Why not nerf champs or RK's or your class for that matter? Why should the Burg be the one nerfed? Because of some class description written over 4 years ago? Who decides what should and should not be top tier?

Meh. Sounds fishy to me. We are not primarily support classes. You must not believe this or you wouldn't be calling for a nerf to Reveal Weakness, a support skill. So which is it? Should we lose our DPS status or our Support ability? Your arguments seem inconsistent.

It is both because of the class description and because of what Zombie Columbus wrote before the release of RoI:

Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus

No. Burglar DPS < Hunter DPS.

Now this is a deep and relevant question. A direction we are going in as a team, is to allow more classes to preform a competent secondary DPS role. This has a danger: besides an occasional CC, our damage dealing classes have little utility. As such, bringing a class like the Bulgar to Hunter DPS levels would make for horrible imbalance, unless the Hunter simultaneously received a suite of tools and tricks as deep as the Burglars. It is unlikely we would want to make a change that impactful, so the secondary DPS classes will have to remain secondary. That said, getting closer to top tier damage then they were before has been one of our goals for such classes.
Yes, it is a difficult balancing act: buff them too far, and pure damage dealers become less valuable. However, it is a balancing act that we are moving forward with. This means a few things. First, as can be seen in this update with the changes to stances, additional AOE capabilities, depth added to the Trapper line and the changes to the Champion, we are adding more options to our DPS classes. We're not turning them into hybrids by any stretch, but peppering in some additional variety. Second, the dps on "secondary" classes will be inched up on a class by class basis. Third, the primary damage dealers should always be capable of a respectable step above the secondaries. I very much understand the concerns you bring up here, and I share them.
Until a few weeks after launch, try not to put too much faith proclamations made on these forums about how much or little damage one class or another does (exhibit A: claims that 65 RK's out damage 75 Hunters.) RoI has a lot of deep level changes to the whole game. While we have our own internal testing as well as beta, you all will be the ones who really figure out how to make these classes run optimally. If after that, Hunters are getting out dpsed by Burglars (or any other non-dps class) then we will make appropriate changes.

As he is a class developer, he more than any of us should know which classes are supposed to do the most DPS. I cannot understand his post in any other way than that Burglars are supposed to be a secondary DPS class and that the primary DPS classes (Hunter, Champion and Rune-Keeper) should be able to do more DPS than secondary DPS classes. Not much more, but still more DPS. I dont think that is the case anymore after the Unseen set was unleashed, especially not when you take RW and CD to account.

Unless there is a heavy advantage to being ranged, I dont see any reason to bring a Hunter over a Burglar despite the Hunter is supposed to be top tier DPS - The Burglar can do the same or more DPS and bring more DPS to the group with RW and CD.

Unless heavy AoE or tanking of mobs is required, I dont see any reason to bring a Champion over a Burglar - The Burglar can do the same or more DPS and bring more DPS to the group with RW and CD.

Unless healing or tactical buffs (dnftf etc) are needed, I dont see any reason to bring a Rune-Keeper over a Burglar for the same reasons as with the Hunter and the Champion.

I understand there's a critical balance between making Burglars OP and making them useless, but at the moment I think we're way into the side where Burglars are OP and we see this the most when Burglars are stacked. I want Burglars to be useful, but I really dont get why they should be so much more useful in numbers than any other class, making them practically OP in regards to single target DPS whenever they're a stack of 3 or more.

The reason I'd rather have debuff stacking nerfed rather than nerfing the DPS of each Burglar is because I know they've already been spanked by Audacity in PvMP, reducing their DPS would hurt them even more in solo and PvMP. By nerfing debuff stacking we wont see Burglars being OP when stacked, but we will still see a class that can DPS and debuff by making use of Dust and Disable instead of always stacking Counter Defence.

Originally Posted by IGolbezI

isn't viable thought? not sure what you mean by that exactly

in any case, i didn't say burg stacking isn't viable, so im not sure if youre responding to me or referencing someone else...

I was indeed referencing someone else. If you read my post again, you should be able to see I was quoting scrubmonkey because he wrote "Heck, it's (it being Burglar Stacking) not even viable thought this ONE raid (as others have said many, many times).".

I am not sure what he meant with thought in that sentence, but saying Burglar Stacking is not viable in ToO is just wrong.

Don't understand how Elrantiri has the patience to keep up with some of you. Props.

Isn't it clear by now? Burgs are not meant to be top tier dps, but they are. Raids are technically possible without stacking burgs, but not practically possible. The answer is two-fold: 1) Nerf burg dps to where they should be and have been repeatedly stated to belong by the freakin developer of the game, and 2) Nerf orthanc challenges to meet the dip in dps that would result.

It's not that hard.

Note: This is now your cue to flame me about being a hunter and wanting to steal your thunder.

Because, Bond007, considering the subject matter (Orthanc T2 primarily) a lot of the discussion on what burglars are 'doing' in these cases verses other controlled conditions (such as solo / parsing / other instances) doesn't really allow the "Burgs are OP" to hold water.

I will be in agreement with ONE thing however in that the mechanic allowing Reveal Weakness to stack additively perhaps could have a relook, because specifically BURGLARS are not the problem OP omgdps issue. A solitary skill allow themselves and all other DPS in the group to exceed limits normally considered when making these raids. In the case of Fire & Frost T2 Challenge, it is not "you need to stack burglars to win" (Disclaimer: Currently you DO need to, but that is not the fault of groups ...stacking burglars). Any class combination (of which currently there is only the 'stack burglar' method) that could kill 1 of the giants in ~1minute would achieve the same result. It just so HAPPENS that currently no group make up different to the 'burg stacking' CAN make this time.

Remarkably - you will find that this is a failure, absolutely and undeniably, of the fight itself. The mechanics of this fight still do not allow the encounter to be played to its fullest (see: giants at lowering each other's rage phase). It is currently just NOT possible to do the encounter in full, thus the only way has been similar circumvention of the mechanics. In T2, the same principle was applied (avoid X factors by doing Y) - just it didn't have the very strict DPS requirement TO circumvent everything about this wonderful, but ultimately mis-managed encounter.

Coming back to burglars as a whole in Orthanc, the only other place they have in truly going beyond what was perhaps intended is of course Acid T2 challenge. However to my knowledge, that has now been achieved with 2-3 burglars. I will check the screenshots again, but if it is indeed 2, then we see that it is not inherently burglars at fault allowing this. The design has failed. We HAVE had bosses with timer / morale bases for activation of events (see Ferndur in Lost Temple) RE: the same ability. The acid boss could easily have a morale "safety measure" for a spawn of adds, wherein the first wave either comes at 50 seconds from start OR from 75% morale on boss - thus initiating the timing system of 50s wave, 20s (thereabouts) acid rise, back to 50s boss, 50s wave etc etc.
There are options to avoid such DPS races - but they were not used nor considered. No matter how much we argue back and forth about how much extra DPS burglar stacking brings just by existing OR how much they can do alone - that is something Turbine KNOWS about. THEY have the numbers, the specifics, the ability to test these things themselves and by damn...if they don't know about what burglars can do RE: stacking revealing weakness they must have been stricken blind.

Getting to the very specific matter on "Burg DPS verses hunter DPS" per ZCs comment, I take that quite literally.
1 hunter verses 1 burglar. Give them the best gear possible (inc. unseen set for burglar). Give them a target with no mitigations (target dummy) and let them go nuts. 1m 40s to be precise.
I will wager that they will either be close (more likely) or that the hunter will surpass. And I'm sorry, but if that hunter only wins by 7.3 extra DPS, then they have done more DPS. What multiple burglars can bring RE: DPS (thereby...by the way...also increasing the DPS of said hunter if they are in a group situation) is irrelevant to the comment that "burg DPS < hunter DPS". YES I agree, hunters SHOULD be able to do more DPS than a burglar. Threat generation regrettably hinders a hunter a lot more than a burglar will ever experience - a failing of the mechanics of a class - not a disparity in DPS at its base.

I do of course agree with your 2 step plan in part. By part, I mean half, and by half I mean - look at Orthanc. They messed up Fire / Frost. Redo it, see WHY people are circumventing particulars of the fight (hint Turbine: they appear to be trying to avoid something that happens ~1min into the fight) and work from there.
Nerfing or buffing a class will not do it. No matter what, there will always ALWAYS be "the best way to do something" and people will use that if it is 'viable', but certainly (begrudgingly) if REQUIRED.

The most important thing to note is: if a fight can be done with a regular group - no 'stacking' involved (we will assume for argument no more than 2 of any class) then you have a winner. In Orthanc that is currently 4 for 5. One fight now needs to be looked at and not the classes involved. If captain marks / sure strike armour set stacked and reveal weakness did not, you could bet your bottom dollar you'd see ~4-5 captains in there with red traiting, old Ost Dunhoth set switch in (shadow lament chance to reset oathies) with 1 burg's reveal weakness and that burglar would be no better off than the hunters/champs/RKs in the group doing DPS.

As for the armour set. Can't comment having limited experience with it. 20% is an incredible amount of extra dev crit. MASSIVE. THAT is incredible. Though on bosses a bit of bad luck on misses (despite burg's high agility) can mean stacking it becomes random. I would happily say...maybe 4 stacks (refreshing) was a touch too much? 2 to me seems pretty darn reasonable for clicking a regular skill once every ~10s.


P.S. I also am sorry to hear you think people may flame you RE: hunter. I am sorry that hunters are in an odd place right know, where many have to hold back their DPS due to the restraints of threat - whereas other classes continue to be able to go mostly nuts without worry or having threat dumps / negators. Hunters have...little in that regard - especially considering how their threat legacies work (or don't...)

You cannot directly compare Hunter and Burglar DPS parses on a dummy because aggro is a huge part of it in actual combat (and it is just as much a RK and Champ issue as it is a Hunter issue), misses tend to a non-issue on dummies afaik and there's probably other parameters that need to be covered to make it a fair comparison.
Furthermore I dont think RW and CA (and Hunters BA) is active much of the time on a dummy unless the Burglar actually reapplies them and considering the animation and that the RW once again only will last 20 seconds, I dont think they'll reapply it much. For a 1 minute parse RW will therefore only be active for 20-30 seconds, so I guess another 3-5% should be added the the DPS of a Burglar.

I'd say a Hunter can reach about 2400-2500 DPS on a dummy in 1 minute (not sure if that's too pessimistic, could not find screenies of others doing this), I've seen Burglars reach about 2250DPS

I'd say Ferndur is the perfect example of why NOT to just fix the instance by just adding morale timers - I dont think Turbine has what it takes to do it properly. If you DPS Ferndur too much you can end up with 2 eyes if the timer-based applies like 0.5 seconds before the morale one so both are met. I would not want to do much DPS at Acid if I risk double adds.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Saying Burglar Stacking is not viable for this raid is just wrong and that is what I pointed out by explaning how many Burglars can be put in a raid and still do the content.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Yeah lets focus on raids that are no longer the current raid cluster just to make a point.



No?
3-5 burglars @ Lightning is viable.
3-7 Burglars @ Acid is very viable.
3-4 Burglars @ F+F is required until proven otherwise.
3 Burglars @ Shadow = not so much, 2 burglars and 3 ranged DPS is better.
2-3 Burglars @ Saruman = viable. I've only seen runs with at most 2 Burglars and 1 Champion but I dont see why the Champion wouldn't be replacable with a Burglar if you wanted to and then let a Hunter tank the shadow.

3-5 Hunters @ Lightning is viable
3-7 Hunters @ Acid is viable
2-4 Hunters @ F+F is viable from what others say (didn't play this encounter)
3-5 Hunters @ Shadow is very viable
2-3 Hunters @ Saruman is viable

as you see you could do this thing to nearly every class...
the problem atm is that the F+F-Fight might be unbalanced from what others say and might be easier to kill with more Burgs - but you require no burgs for the other fights - only F+F seems to require at least 2 Burgs, but Shadow requires 3 Hunters, if you like it a lot harder take Runekeeper instead...
Saruman requires at least 3 Minis, you could take Runekeeper instead, but more than 1 might be harder...

from your point the captain is more imbalanced as the burg - look at the firstkills of the last years - I guess the class you'll see the most on these screens is the Captain because EVERY RAID has to take 2 of them or loosing a lot of moral, healing and dmg

Originally Posted by Melmadoc

3-5 Hunters @ Lightning is viable
3-7 Hunters @ Acid is viable
2-4 Hunters @ F+F is viable from what others say (didn't play this encounter)
3-5 Hunters @ Shadow is very viable
2-3 Hunters @ Saruman is viable

as you see you could do this thing to nearly every class...
the problem atm is that the F+F-Fight might be unbalanced from what others say and might be easier to kill with more Burgs - but you require no burgs for the other fights - only F+F seems to require at least 2 Burgs, but Shadow requires 3 Hunters, if you like it a lot harder take Runekeeper instead...
Saruman requires at least 3 Minis, you could take Runekeeper instead, but more than 1 might be harder...

from your point the captain is more imbalanced as the burg - look at the firstkills of the last years - I guess the class you'll see the most on these screens is the Captain because EVERY RAID has to take 2 of them or loosing a lot of moral, healing and dmg

You're just teasing me now right? There's like 5 people whos answered the same as you, completely ignoring that my post is an answer to someone saying Burglar Stacking is not viable in ToO - which I say it is with Shadow HM being the perhaps exception as ranged DPS is needed here. I'm not saying stacking other classes is not viable(except F+F Challenge), but saying Burglar Stacking is not viable is wrong.

Shadow HM does NOT require 3 Hunters, and it does NOT get much harder by bringing an RK and 2 Hunters. I've done that boss so many times I know it is very doable with 2 Hunters and 1 RK.

Saying only 2 Burglars are needed for F+F is stretching it as well, we have yet to see it happen

LotrO has made Captains an integral part of very most fellowships and raid, I dont see why that is a problem. I see the problem that Burglars are outDPSing the primary DPS classes when the Devs have said they should not.

EDIT: I would like to see 7 Hunters do Acid T2HM tbh, I'd say that setup is way too squishy to handle adds.

Originally Posted by Melmadoc

3-5 Hunters @ Lightning is viable
3-7 Hunters @ Acid is viable
2-4 Hunters @ F+F is viable from what others say (didn't play this encounter)
3-5 Hunters @ Shadow is very viable
2-3 Hunters @ Saruman is viable

Mind, you can do some of these fights in half the time bringing the same amount of burgs. .) 7 hunters at Acid are still doing their 2k DPS per nose.

That is where the problem lies. I have nothing against class stacking (or not), but as it is, stacking burgs (not even going into the Unseen set) is absolutely the single most OP tactic in the game.

Pre-RoI 60 second 12 burg Turtle anyone? I mean, it's hilarious, but at the same time no-one should be able to argue that it is NOT game breaking.

At the risk of stating the obvious, I think noone can honestly deny that the Burglar ability to stack these very notable debuffs while most (all?) other classes cannot somehow goes against basic class fairness and diversity.

And that is totally detached from the very real problem that some fights in ToO and elsewhere are profiting extremely from this novelty (REGARDLESS of them being able to be done with other classes - or not).

Ultiheart, I see why you think what you do, and appreciate a well thought out answer instead of trolling

But, I still can't reconcile myself with the argument that the game mechanics are at the root of the problem. The problem isn't that burg stacking makes it possible to ignore mechanics in one raid, it's that the possibility exists at all. Your point about captain stacking only further proves this. They fixed captain stacking, now fix burg stacking. The only difference now is that instead of 2 OP raid classes there is one? Rigging mechanics to swerve around the issue of too much dps is not resolving the real issue.

Also, I'd like to point out that hunters are not the only ones who have a reason to gripe. DPS RKs are a notable mention as well. Now with the same (similar) aggro skill as a hunter, an RK cannot manage aggro as effectively as a burg either. The real sad thing about this however is that a RK has more utility (raid buffs/debuffs to benefit group) than a hunter but less than a burg. While a hunter may out dps a burg 1 on 1, there is simply no way I would believe an RK could. The best dps RK on my server has bragged about 3.3k dps in acid, while the burgs have bragged to numbers up to 3.8k (same group makeup). Thus, a dps RK is not inferior to a burg on only a couple counts, but on all. Range and mobility at range are the only things a RK can claim, and fire specced can't even claim that much. Better aggro, better dps, better CC, not even to mention better survivability through TaG... I can see where this is going, and I don't like it. It affects all dps classes. Not just hunters.

Apply this to a champion too. ZC's point about balancing secondary dps'ers buffs with bigger numbers from primary dps'ers seems very far off.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

I'd say a Hunter can reach about 2400-2500 DPS on a dummy in 1 minute (not sure if that's too pessimistic, could not find screenies of others doing this), I've seen Burglars reach about 2250DPS

I don't feel like posting any more here, because this thread has been derailed by trolls to the point where I am wasting my time: But you are actually under-stating Burglar DPS.

With the Unseen set, Burglars can hit 2450 DPS on the Galtrev dummy: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...o-you-do/page3 (see post 82).

Now 2450 is about what I do with CBR as a Champion, and I suspect it's about the upper limit of what Champions can do, since I have a glass cannon build with every top-end DPS gear except the Saruman cloak (which only marginally adds to the Draigoch cloak), 2H First Ager lucking out with good passives, and all stat tomes maxed (on DPS build I am around 2300 Might and 9800 Crit). My understanding is that that is the upper limit for Hunters as well.

So on the Galtrev dummy, Burglars do as much as Champions and Hunters. But in practical terms, they can do more in raids due to their far more effective aggro dump.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

I saw your post and knew it was someone with a Burglar as his best geared toon.

My burg might be my best geared toon, but people still call me by my hunter's name in vent because that was my main for 4 years.

Originally Posted by Yosoff

Do you think raid groups prefer to stack burgs? No, they don't.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Did you just speak on behalf of most if not all raid groups? Good job.

This is where you lose all credibility. People want to raid on their main toons and very few people have burgs as their mains. Broken content forces people to switch to alts and they lose out on deeds, gear, and hard to get titles for their mains. Over the years people have called for hunter nerfs & RK nerfs & LM nerfs & champ nerfs, then we get to the next raid and it's some other class that needs to be nerfed and the old popular class is suddenly unwanted.

The problem isn't the classes, the problem is the content.

Originally Posted by Yosoff

The problem isn't the classes, the problem is the content.

Maybe we should have a non-DPSable boss in the next raid.

Originally Posted by Jullandar

Maybe we should have a non-DPSable boss in the next raid.

That could be awesome! Instead of DPS on the boss directly, we could have to kill thousands and thousands of 100hp adds. Hunters, Champs & LMs rain down AOE DPS while burgs debuff the boss and pop CJs.

My Captain would love it too.

Have you read the books? Burgs are the heroes.
Just sayin'... Anyone who read the books knows that bringing Burglars wins every time.

Originally Posted by Southpa

Have you read the books? Burgs are the heroes.
Just sayin'... Anyone who read the books knows that bringing Burglars wins every time.

If my memory doesn't fail me, bringing A burglar wins every time in the books.

THE burg is a hero.

Note the singular.

Originally Posted by Bond007

Ultiheart, I see why you think what you do, and appreciate a well thought out answer instead of trolling

But, I still can't reconcile myself with the argument that the game mechanics are at the root of the problem. The problem isn't that burg stacking makes it possible to ignore mechanics in one raid, it's that the possibility exists at all. Your point about captain stacking only further proves this. They fixed captain stacking, now fix burg stacking. The only difference now is that instead of 2 OP raid classes there is one? Rigging mechanics to swerve around the issue of too much dps is not resolving the real issue.

Also, I'd like to point out that hunters are not the only ones who have a reason to gripe. DPS RKs are a notable mention as well. Now with the same (similar) aggro skill as a hunter, an RK cannot manage aggro as effectively as a burg either. The real sad thing about this however is that a RK has more utility (raid buffs/debuffs to benefit group) than a hunter but less than a burg. While a hunter may out dps a burg 1 on 1, there is simply no way I would believe an RK could. The best dps RK on my server has bragged about 3.3k dps in acid, while the burgs have bragged to numbers up to 3.8k (same group makeup). Thus, a dps RK is not inferior to a burg on only a couple counts, but on all. Range and mobility at range are the only things a RK can claim, and fire specced can't even claim that much. Better aggro, better dps, better CC, not even to mention better survivability through TaG... I can see where this is going, and I don't like it. It affects all dps classes. Not just hunters.

Apply this to a champion too. ZC's point about balancing secondary dps'ers buffs with bigger numbers from primary dps'ers seems very far off.

Originally Posted by Miretocot

I don't feel like posting any more here, because this thread has been derailed by trolls to the point where I am wasting my time: But you are actually under-stating Burglar DPS.

With the Unseen set, Burglars can hit 2450 DPS on the Galtrev dummy: http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...o-you-do/page3 (see post 82).

Now 2450 is about what I do with CBR as a Champion, and I suspect it's about the upper limit of what Champions can do, since I have a glass cannon build with every top-end DPS gear except the Saruman cloak (which only marginally adds to the Draigoch cloak), 2H First Ager lucking out with good passives, and all stat tomes maxed (on DPS build I am around 2300 Might and 9800 Crit). My understanding is that that is the upper limit for Hunters as well.

So on the Galtrev dummy, Burglars do as much as Champions and Hunters. But in practical terms, they can do more in raids due to their far more effective aggro dump.

Champs are just fine, guys - we benefit the most from attack duration buffs (a good group benefits a Champ more than anyone else, I believe), and Ebbing Ire is still the best aggro dump in the game (since it helps the tank and, by extension, everyone else, instead of just the person using it).

I really hope that the next raid requires Burglars to be in Mischief during boss fights so we can stop talking about HIPS as an aggro dump.

If some kins can get 3-4 burgs in a single group, let them do burg-stacking if they want. Good for them. Our kin has only 1 burg main. We also have 2-3 more burgs as alts, but we need those people on main chars. Most burgs we can gather in single group is 2.

I don't see burg stacking as bad thing. If some fight can be done with and without burg stacking, that is great. It means that there are more possible tactics to complete some fight. Some kins do Acid t2 challenge in 90sec kill with burg stacking. Great for them that they can pull off that much DPS. Our kin does it with 1 burg, handling 2 waves of adds. We choose to do that fight with lot of coordination, which is needed to kill the adds at same time. Other kins choose to do that fight as a DPS race. That is good. It would be bad if there was only 1 viable tactics for a certain fight and all kins do that fight in a same way. That is not fun.

Talking about only 1 viable tactic to complete certain fight... Fire&Frost challenge. Looks like at the moment the only possible way to do it is burg stacking. That is bad. If there is only 1 possible way to do a fight, it means that the fight is broken. Or badly designed.

If burg stacking is prevented, by making RW and tricks not to stack, nobody would be able to complete F&F challenge. So don't blame burgs and don't ask for their nerf, blame the dev who designed that fight.

I find the best thing for trolls in these threads is to stack Burgs. Multiple Reveal Weaknesses can disect a troll pretty quick. Just sayin....

Can we also nerf burgs in PvP? Sometimes I can get away from a warg pack, and that isn't right. I should be torn apart because they can purchase a hobbit tracker for 3s.

Just change how damage increase buffs are applied:

factor = sqrt(sum(buff[i]^2))

and you're done:

1x10% RW -> +10%
2x10% RW -> +14%
1x10% RW + 1x10% cappy -> +14%
3x10% RW -> +17%
4x10% RW -> +20%

etc...

Having 1 marks is good, two are still a lot better, three starts hitting diminishing returns. Above 4 it's mostly a waste. Stacking burgs will still increase DPS...

Just out of curiosity. Have the kins that beat this attempted for a length of time the same strat with less burgs?
~665k Boss ~ 150k Bubble ~ 36k Grim ~
= 851k Damage to be done in 59.9 seconds.
=14.2k Raid DPS damage.
=2.8k DPS damage for ea (5 DPS classes).
Bonuses to help you reach these levels:
Benefit of all other damages by other classes such as LM/capt attacks, 2 oathies.

I realize math rarely works, especially in a raid situation of about 60 seconds, however there is pretty much 1 target and it doesn't move, with 0 distractions aside from assigning corruption removal while DPS and 1-2 specifically for grim.

Lets say an average group:
LM / Guard x2 / Mini x2 / Burg x2 / Huntx2 / Champ x1 / Capt x2

Honestly whether the math cannot be conducted or not, if your group cannot sustain 2.8k DPS (closer to 2.3k with off dps class help) for 60 seconds with to arms and multiple oathies with 2 burgs then I'm shocked.

I've parsed 2.6k in shadow boss on my hunter in a 5 minute fight while having to move and kill adds that do not have marks. I fail to see how I can't parse 4k similar to acid in a 60 second blast of 2 oathies.

Agro problems? It's not that hard if the guard starts off with the right rotation and gets call to greatness. After 5 seconds hit challenge for first oathies, then engage, then challenge for second oathies after champ ebbs. When challenge is almost done use challenge darkness for the last burst to kill the boss.

Originally Posted by YesMaam

Just out of curiosity. Have the kins that beat this attempted for a length of time the same strat with less burgs?
~665k Boss ~ 150k Bubble ~ 36k Grim ~
= 851k Damage to be done in 59.9 seconds.
=14.2k Raid DPS damage.
=2.8k DPS damage for ea (5 DPS classes).
Bonuses to help you reach these levels:
Benefit of all other damages by other classes such as LM/capt attacks, 2 oathies.

I realize math rarely works, especially in a raid situation of about 60 seconds, however there is pretty much 1 target and it doesn't move, with 0 distractions aside from assigning corruption removal while DPS and 1-2 specifically for grim.

Lets say an average group:
LM / Guard x2 / Mini x2 / Burg x2 / Huntx2 / Champ x1 / Capt x2

Honestly whether the math cannot be conducted or not, if your group cannot sustain 2.8k DPS (closer to 2.3k with off dps class help) for 60 seconds with to arms and multiple oathies with 2 burgs then I'm shocked.

I've parsed 2.6k in shadow boss on my hunter in a 5 minute fight while having to move and kill adds that do not have marks. I fail to see how I can't parse 4k similar to acid in a 60 second blast of 2 oathies.

Agro problems? It's not that hard if the guard starts off with the right rotation and gets call to greatness. After 5 seconds hit challenge for first oathies, then engage, then challenge for second oathies after champ ebbs. When challenge is almost done use challenge darkness for the last burst to kill the boss.

We did it with three Burgs and quite often only needed one Oathies, even if the bubble appeared. We also used a CBR Fervour tank Champ on the first Giant, as the 2nd Guardian was there to grab all the grims and kite them away. It worked pretty well for us - I don't think I ever died once, even with less than 10k morale, and it was the same for our other Champ when he tanked.

You're right about the math - it does seem like it should work, especially since you can keep your healers and LMs in auto-attack range for some extra damage.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

I was indeed referencing someone else. If you read my post again, you should be able to see I was quoting scrubmonkey because he wrote "Heck, it's (it being Burglar Stacking) not even viable thought this ONE raid (as others have said many, many times).".

I am not sure what he meant with thought in that sentence, but saying Burglar Stacking is not viable in ToO is just wrong.

oh that explains it

not enough time to read every wall of text :P

Originally Posted by YesMaam

Agro problems? It's not that hard if the guard starts off with the right rotation and gets call to greatness. After 5 seconds hit challenge for first oathies, then engage, then challenge for second oathies after champ ebbs. When challenge is almost done use challenge darkness for the last burst to kill the boss.

i forgot to say this... i havent played guard in a while but even if u cant hold straight aggro you can spend a long amount of time through 60 seconds with a force challenge sitting on the mob

Originally Posted by Jullandar

If my memory doesn't fail me, bringing A burglar winds every time in the books.

THE burg is a hero.

Note the singular.

Touche.

But one could reasonably assume that we're only improving on Tolkien's original strat, no?
I'm sure if he had more than one Burglar, he would have brought more...

Originally Posted by Bond007

Don't understand how Elrantiri has the patience to keep up with some of you. Props.

Isn't it clear by now? Burgs are not meant to be top tier dps, but they are. Raids are technically possible without stacking burgs, but not practically possible. The answer is two-fold: 1) Nerf burg dps to where they should be and have been repeatedly stated to belong by the freakin developer of the game, and 2) Nerf orthanc challenges to meet the dip in dps that would result.

It's not that hard.

Note: This is now your cue to flame me about being a hunter and wanting to steal your thunder.

The only thing that's clear is that you are a hunter and want to steal our thunder!!!!

JK, but you don't understand the class if you think we actually are top tier dps. If we get in the right position AND get a specific set of pvp gear then we come close to competing with other top tier dps classes. This still means that Burg DPS < Hunter DPS overall and most times in raids, especially if through our gargantuan dps we STEAL AGGRO. Because then we lose our positional benefit. So umm yeah, devs please ignore the hunters and fix the instance and don't break burgs.

You hunters need to get your stories straight. Do you want to nerf RW stacking (a support function), our dps output (which you admit is lower than hunters), or our aggro dump (another support feature)? You guys keep sliding back and forth. Utiheart covered it quite efficiently. Asking for lower dps when we do have lower dps, just because we can dump aggro is not coherent. We either do or do not have as much dps as your class. If we don't, why ask for it to be lowered? Why NOT ask for your class to get better aggro dump, which is much more consistent with the problem you've identified.

And Thunderloin, requiring any class to be in any one stance just so they can't use a specific skill....you can look forward to a thread just like this one if that happens. We don't like MM. Forcing a class to use a stance they don't like for one tiny raid mechanic is obnoxious.

I'm sorry, and to whoever was arguing that the poor RK's are being displaced dps wise by us burgs. I'll care about this when a burglar can heal like an RK.

Originally Posted by YesMaam

I've parsed 2.6k in shadow boss on my hunter in a 5 minute fight while having to move and kill adds that do not have marks

Now that I would like to see. I've seen kins do Shadow HM within the 5 minute mark with Hunters only doing bit more than half that DPS, I'm not sure how you can keep it a 5 minute fight if you do that much DPS.

Originally Posted by Doulos

You hunters need to get your stories straight. Do you want to nerf RW stacking (a support function), our dps output (which you admit is lower than hunters), or our aggro dump (another support feature)? You guys keep sliding back and forth.

We're not sliding back and forth. I'm saying Burglars are OP atm, and suggest that either RW stacking, Unseen set or HiPS resetting aggro is nerfed to get Burglars back on track. I dont mind which one of them, just one of them.

Originally Posted by YesMaam

I've parsed 2.6k in shadow boss on my hunter in a 5 minute fight while having to move and kill adds that do not have marks. I fail to see how I can't parse 4k similar to acid in a 60 second blast of 2 oathies.

I would say - without a screen this is FAR to high - a Add-killing-Hunter rarely is over 2k DPS - 2,6k only if you only attack the Boss, but with killing Adds, I would say that's impossible...

Originally Posted by Doulos

And Thunderloin, requiring any class to be in any one stance just so they can't use a specific skill....you can look forward to a thread just like this one if that happens. We don't like MM. Forcing a class to use a stance they don't like for one tiny raid mechanic is obnoxious.

I actually agree with you - I'm just tired of reading about how awesome HIPS is as an aggro-dumping tool, considering that's not really its purpose (although it does work well).

From a paranoid PoV, Burg mains may not want to hear people keep saying that either, or it may get disabled in all new instances like it apparently is in Draigoch. I'm still a bit sore over Clobber going from a 3.2s cooldown to a 5s cooldown thanks to some Champs crowing about how they were using it to increase their DPS in the Mirkwood beta. :P

Originally Posted by Southpa

Touche.

But one could reasonably assume that we're only improving on Tolkien's original strat, no?
I'm sure if he had more than one Burglar, he would have brought more...

I'm sure they would just have organized a lunch party then, instead of raiding Erebor for Smaug's treasure.

Even then, the intention wasn't to kill Smaug in 60 seconds.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Now that I would like to see. I've seen kins do Shadow HM within the 5 minute mark with Hunters only doing bit more than half that DPS, I'm not sure how you can keep it a 5 minute fight if you do that much DPS.

Have you seen any of Yelk's parses?? He stacks a million and a half buffs, store bought and consumables, and I'm pretty sure he's geared top notch (as in, perfection. All the gear you shoot for)

So yes, that's believable with the best gear and buffs as well as a directed blade brother from captain. I don't doubt it. I doubt it from 99% of the other population though.

Originally Posted by Jullandar

I'm sure they would just have organized a lunch party then, instead of raiding Erebor for Smaug's treasure.

Even then, the intention wasn't to kill Smaug in 60 seconds.

Smaug was one-shot by a hunter after a burg revealed his weakness.

Originally Posted by Yosoff

Smaug was one-shot by a hunter after a burg revealed his weakness.

But if 2 burgs were pointing out the *same* weakness, would Bard of done better? And if they were pointing out different weaknesses, would he have done better? I think not

Originally Posted by Yosoff

Smaug was one-shot by a hunter after a burg revealed his weakness.

And wholly unintentionally as well, because Bard was trying to fear it for 15 seconds with his arrow.

Originally Posted by Bond007

Have you seen any of Yelk's parses?? He stacks a million and a half buffs, store bought and consumables, and I'm pretty sure he's geared top notch (as in, perfection. All the gear you shoot for)

So yes, that's believable with the best gear and buffs as well as a directed blade brother from captain. I don't doubt it. I doubt it from 99% of the other population though.

I have not seen any of his parses no.

According to what I can see on mylotro, the only piece of gear better on his hunter than mine is his main hand as he has got a 1st ager where I am still using a 2nd ager.

We both use pretty much the same jewelleries, off-hand, cloak, 5 pieces of ToO (I use 6 pieces instead of Woodbound Boots for extra fate and icpr instead of getting more vit). I even got a better necklace than him.

I use oils, chants, +5% damage perks, resist, icpr and +73 agi food, Baingrist for clickie (wearing it before battle and activating it just before fight starts then equips Methathol in offhand) and limlight pocket clickie during fights. I'm not sure what else Yelk could be doing that I am not.

I dont see my gear differs much from his, at least not to the point where he would do 500 more DPS than me @ Shadow Tier 2 HM just by having different gear than me.

I dont consider myself the best hunter out there, I would love to see what Yelk does to pull off 2.6k DPS @ Shadow T2 HM. Spam RoA'ing the ravagers?
And as said before, if he does that much DPS, that fight should only take like 3 minutes then and not 5?

Yelk: http://my.lotro.com/home/character/5...8138030641334/
My hunter: http://my.lotro.com/home/character/2...2062493656213/