Thread: Stop Burglar Stacking from being a viable Strategy please

Originally Posted by DutchEZmoder

If Turbine allows the use of only 1 reveal weakness, they can also give burgs a 2nd 'reveal weakness' only with a different effect, like +8% miss chance. So in that case 2 burgs wouldn't be useless because they can put different marks on the target.

That is the Captain solution. One does telling mark, one does revealing mark. Works out OK...

Originally Posted by Southpa

I do recall devs saying in the past that the mechanic of Burg debuffs stacking was partly intended to compensate for the way their debuffs pale in comparison to an LM's. "More effective in packs" was the mantra I recall hearing from a blue-name more than once over the years. I bet they didn't quite anticipate the 7-Burg Ivar kills and things like that. Kinda poor foresight.

I'd be fine if they dropped stacking - because it does prevent some fights from being done as intended by certain groups - mine included. You think I'm going to waste my time on a lame Mario-esque absence-of-lag dependent break every couple minutes of a fight when I can have the fight over completely in less than 100s?
Right-O. I might be dumb, but I'm not stupid.

Regardless, no one "in the know" ever came out and said the zerg strat was an exploit. Maybe it's not as they intended, but then I would bet that many bosses are beaten in ways the devs did not directly foresee when they made the encounter. Just sayin'... The zerg strat still forces you to see every mechanic in the fight except the run and jmup. I figure not having to do that BS is my reward for killing him in less than 100s.

If they were to drop stacking, then they would need to compensate in some manner. They would have to kick the debuffs up at least 10-20% higher than they are as well as give us a titch more DPS. If the strength of Burgs was intended to be in numbers, then we're going to need some reparations if they take that away.
Other than that, they could introduce diminishing returns beyond what exists now and probably keep just about everything else the same.

HiPS has presented a "problem" in every raid. Every raid. It's the nature of the skill. But a Burg without HiPS is just not a Burg, sorry.

Ultimately, I think better foresight when designing these raids could help a great deal. You can't blame Burgs for vulnerable content, sorry. Other than Ivar and maybe Thorog, Burg-stacking in the past was either kept really hush-hush or else it was just not that practical.
I'm betting on the latter, so where does the real problem lie here? Seems obvious.

Very good aspects of the burglar class that the OP failed to consider. I'd go even further to ensure that burglars were brought to raids.

Remove the ability of Hunters and classes other than Burglars to open a conjunction including skills and consumables. The ability to have conjunctions without a burglar diminishes the demand for burglars in an area where they were designed to dominate. Removing this would ensure burglars are still wanted for groups. (this is silly pedantry meant to illustrate the logic of the OP)

The reality is that the Hunter class is broken in terms of aggro management. The best hunter threat book only decreases threat by 2% and Quickshot in Endurance is also broken. Provoke similarly causes more damage than threat unless traited and legacied, but it still is useful because it increases the threat lead over the rest of the raid. Hunters are currently gated more by their threat management than by class mechanics in terms of dps.

I think that the biggest problem with raiding right now is not that class-stacking is going on, but rather that the content is being made which encourages class-stacking. As others in this thread have said, if the raid design WASN'T about a DPS-race strategy, then there would be much more incentive for bringing a more diversified raid group AND having different strats.

Personally, I love raid designs that split up the raid into different tasks (eg - Rift Balrog with pulling the levers and leaving a tank and healer behind when going into the Everseer room, or the corridors with levers at the start of Wound wing in OD) because it requires thinking more than zerging. Think about the complicated nature of older fights where it was the job of the Lore-master to keep something mezzed, provide stun-buffs and power, and to debuff certain things certain ways (I'm thinking Thorog and Thrang); where the job of the Hunter was to kill ranged mobs that would otherwise kill/interrupt the healer (eg - Zogtark fight in the Rift with the Elder Drakes) or to kill certain mobs before they became more powerful (eg - Narnulubat fight) or even to CC and cure poison; etc. With most of the fights in Tower of Orthanc, the DPS-race mechanic is in place... and zerging is the best way to defeat the content.

It's not Burglar stacking that is the problem, and Burglars don't need a "nerf" because we are using this strategy -- it's the DPS-race design of the raid that is a problem.

Originally Posted by Cloudie-wan

It's not Burglar stacking that is the problem, and Burglars don't need a "nerf" because we are using this strategy -- it's the DPS-race design of the raid that is a problem.

This. The problem is that Turbine released a raid they never tested. Hell, they didn't even test the revisions to the raid after they conceded that it was broken. It was poorly designed. You are always going to have content that favors one class over another. But, if the content can only be completed with one class it is the content that is a failure.

The OP is basically asking that because Burgs are needed to defeat FF they need to be nerfed so that no one can defeat FF. Maybe he assumes that that would motivate Turbine to actually fix the content, but I doubt it. Barry has moved on from this raid. It's over Johnny- o-v-e-r.

The problem with removing stackable debuffs is that the Burglar becomes a Lore-master- you will always want one but never want two. Anything that benefits even marginally from range will create a strong preference for a Hunter. Anything else will create a strong preference for a Champ because they are much sturdier.

Originally Posted by bastiat1

This. The problem is that Turbine released a raid they never tested. Hell, they didn't even test the revisions to the raid after they conceded that it was broken. It was poorly designed. You are always going to have content that favors one class over another. But, if the content can only be completed with one class it is the content that is a failure.

The OP is basically asking that because Burgs are needed to defeat FF they need to be nerfed so that no one can defeat FF. Maybe he assumes that that would motivate Turbine to actually fix the content, but I doubt it. Barry has moved on from this raid. It's over Johnny- o-v-e-r.

The problem with removing stackable debuffs is that the Burglar becomes a Lore-master- you will always want one but never want two. Anything that benefits even marginally from range will create a strong preference for a Hunter. Anything else will create a strong preference for a Champ because they are much sturdier.

The only reason Burglars are needed for FF is because they allow you to do the fight differently than intended because Burglar Stacking DPS is OP - especially now with the Unseen set. The same applies to Acid.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

The only reason Burglars are needed for FF is because they allow you to do the fight differently than intended because Burglar Stacking DPS is OP - especially now with the Unseen set. The same applies to Acid.

And the proposed solutions are either:

a) Nerf burglars (how much of a nerf it is notwithstanding, it's a nerf, which is all that matters for my point at the moment), thereby also (in effect) endorsing Turbine's now standard policy of making unrelated, sweeping changes in order to cover for poor encounter design (In Harm's Way makes it too easy to survive the phase 2-3 transition in Vile Maw, let's nerf captains!) and encouraging them to continue to put out stupid DPS race raid fights (basically all of Orthanc tier 2 except Shadow, which is still a DPS race just not as stupid) that half the time they don't even bother to test beforehand.

or

b) Take a metaphorical stand against sweeping changes to accomodate bad encounter design. Or against stupid DPS races. Or both. Not that taking such a stand would do much other than show that public opinion is against them when Turbine DOES adjust the burglar class to accomodate stupid DPS races and not the other way around. But it's the principle that matters anyway, most people here aren't so deluded as to assume that simply posting something on the forums will make it happen, even if it has universal support from the forum community.

The time for changes in Orthanc is long past, most likely. For the most part, it works, and is beatable (albeit with questionable, unintended tactics), so we're as likely to get Fire/Frost challenge, or Acid, or anything else changed in any significant, intended way as we are to get major changes to the sorcerors in BG or to the Mistress of Pestilence. Of course it will undeniably break in some unintended way within the next year or so, but by then we won't care so it's a moot point.

Therefore, the point I'm making is that what we should really be asking to have changed is the stupid (occasionally overtuned) time-based DPS races that Orthanc was full of that encourage burg stacking, not to burglars. Whether or not burglars SHOULD be changed is a different issue entirely...class changes should never be made to accomodate encounters, encounters should accomodate class mechanics. Look back to BG, DN, Watcher, OD, basically any other raid. With a few exceptions (*cough*Ivar*cough*), non-exploiting burg-stacking was not prevalent in these raids. Even if some groups chose to stack burgs, or hunters, or whatever class was favored in an encounter, the fights could be done without it, and often there was little benefit to stacking anything. For the purposes of this discussion, fights like Durin's Bane, which could be exploited using the right number of certain classes do not count...exploits are not content, bugs are not content.

In effect what I want is fights that do not revolve around one thing. Even in a DPS race boss, some mechanics could be gated by time, while others are gated by morale...if you try to wait out morale-based mechanics you'll be punished by time-based ones and vice versa. Like Shadow tier 2...if you want to kill all the adds, or match up add spawns with cooldowns, you're either hit by the wall or fail the challenge...or both. Meanwhile, if you zerg the boss and ignore everything, the ravagers will eat everyone in short order. We need more like that and less like acid and fire/frost, where groups are encouraged to zerg-rush through with max DPS in order to avoid otherwise tedious or insurmountable mechanics that the designers never bothered to test.

Aditionally we could do with a few boss fights that actively discourage going all out on DPS all through the fight...hell look at the uruk boss in Fornost: Fire, by the time we realized there even WERE adds the first time I ran it, we'd hit him so hard that all the adds had spawned...now imagine that in a raid, with other mechanics thrown in too. Or even Ferndur in Lost Temple, with eyes being both morale-based AND time-based, and double-eye being instant death for at least one person. Try to solve things like that with burg-stacking.

That being said, a compromise on reveal weakness would be acceptable, if one or more alternative burg toggle debuffs were provided to not make bringing a second burg detrimental (so like captains now, not like LMs). Again though, that's not the battle we should be fighting here and now.

TL;DR: Attack the problem at its source, which is poor design. Nerfing burgs will only lead to hunter or champ stacking in the future when we get more of the DPS races the devs decide we endorse by not arguing against them. People will find something to stack, they always do. Oh, and before I forget, there should never be a PvP set that ends up being far and away the best set to wear for PvE...just saying.

If all DPS races are to be gated by morale in some aspect, the variety in bossfights is going to be lowered by quite a bit.

Zombie Columbus stated Burglars are not Top tier DPS and Hunter DPS > Burglar DPS. That is CLEARLY not the case, especially not after the introduction of the Unseen set. As the Hunter does about the same DPS as Champions and Rune-keepers (each with their disadvantages and advantages), it is not a matter of boosting DPS of one or more DPS classes (DPS is already bloated as it is, its hard enough for tanks to hold aggro atm), but to nerf Burglar DPS.

They are simply not supposed to do this kind of DPS. On top of that, the insane DPS done through Burglar Stacking allows for exploiting and avoiding game mechanics.

The raid cluster should be fixed, but so should Burglars.

EDIT Why would you use Ferndur as an example? That's probably one of the longest and most boring bossfights this game has to offer if not the most boring.

Originally Posted by DutchEZmoder

If Turbine allows the use of only 1 reveal weakness, they can also give burgs a 2nd 'reveal weakness' only with a different effect, like +8% miss chance. So in that case 2 burgs wouldn't be useless because they can put different marks on the target.

While I do believe that the issue with burg stacking has it's root in encounter design, I do like this change, albeit modified. Rather than increasing the bosses miss chance, decrease the raids incoming miss chance. Coupled with medium DR applied to burg marks of both sorts, it would give the 3rd and 4th burg in a raid plenty of value added to the team, but keep them from reaching the OP levels that occur now. With 3 burgs using a neg miss chance mark, misses would be dramatically reduced, if not removed entirely, a mechanic already flagged by many people as problematic. If missing isn't as big a deal in a fight, burgs can go with one or two of each, still greatly helping the raid. It would even be good to either remove the cooldown or somehow allow quickly swapping between marks so compensate for situational uses.

First 8%
Second 5%
Third 2%
Fourth 0%

(Add 2% to each when traited)


As I said at the very beginning though, the issue with burg stacking arises from fights that are based solely on timers/dps, when other mechanics are added it forces leaders to pick more balanced groups.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

EDIT Why would you use Ferndur as an example? That's probably one of the longest and most boring bossfights this game has to offer if not the most boring.

I didn't use it as an example of a fun fight (that I used Fornost in the same statement should be a tip-off that fun wasn't part of the criteria!), but as an example of one whose mechanics penalize going all-out with DPS on the boss. Which they most certainly do. That being said though, it's far from the most boring fight in the game, and at least it's something other than a DPS race.

By that same token, how many examples are there of fun fights that are DPS races without any morale-gated mechanics? Even OD poison (the closest I can think of) had morale-gated adds. If it's strictly time-based, then it encourages mindless zerging...not that there's anything wrong with that being your "thing", but it's hardly inventive or fun...not even if you can't stack burgs.

sure sure, burgs have allready been nerfed into oblivion in pvmp why not nerf the heck out of them in pve too
/sarcasm

Originally Posted by azurebob99

I didn't use it as an example of a fun fight (that I used Fornost in the same statement should be a tip-off that fun wasn't part of the criteria!), but as an example of one whose mechanics penalize going all-out with DPS on the boss. Which they most certainly do. That being said though, it's far from the most boring fight in the game, and at least it's something other than a DPS race.

By that same token, how many examples are there of fun fights that are DPS races without any morale-gated mechanics? Even OD poison (the closest I can think of) had morale-gated adds. If it's strictly time-based, then it encourages mindless zerging...not that there's anything wrong with that being your "thing", but it's hardly inventive or fun...not even if you can't stack burgs.

The Lieutenant was a pretty fun and awesome fight (ok first phase is morale gated, but still, that's not where the real fight takes place).

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

The Lieutenant was a pretty fun and awesome fight (ok first phase is morale gated, but still, that's not where the real fight takes place).

I remember Lieutenant 1.0 or watcher 1.0 where everyone was stacking hunters, better nerf range :P

Originally Posted by Cloudie-wan

I think that the biggest problem with raiding right now is not that class-stacking is going on, but rather that the content is being made which encourages class-stacking. As others in this thread have said, if the raid design WASN'T about a DPS-race strategy, then there would be much more incentive for bringing a more diversified raid group AND having different strats.

Personally, I love raid designs that split up the raid into different tasks (eg - Rift Balrog with pulling the levers and leaving a tank and healer behind when going into the Everseer room, or the corridors with levers at the start of Wound wing in OD) because it requires thinking more than zerging. Think about the complicated nature of older fights where it was the job of the Lore-master to keep something mezzed, provide stun-buffs and power, and to debuff certain things certain ways (I'm thinking Thorog and Thrang); where the job of the Hunter was to kill ranged mobs that would otherwise kill/interrupt the healer (eg - Zogtark fight in the Rift with the Elder Drakes) or to kill certain mobs before they became more powerful (eg - Narnulubat fight) or even to CC and cure poison; etc. With most of the fights in Tower of Orthanc, the DPS-race mechanic is in place... and zerging is the best way to defeat the content.

It's not Burglar stacking that is the problem, and Burglars don't need a "nerf" because we are using this strategy -- it's the DPS-race design of the raid that is a problem.

so ****ing true . The Lt. fight in BG was good too. + rep

Originally Posted by sdf-blarelius

I remember Lieutenant 1.0 or watcher 1.0 where everyone was stacking hunters, better nerf range :P

Ehm what?

If I remember correctly, Solstice was world first on the LT HM kill, and they used 1 hunter:
http://wn.com/Solstice_vs_the_Lieutenant_Hard_Mode

I didn't raid nevermind play much at all LotrO back in MoM, but of what I've been told Hunters were generally OP back then, and they had their nerfs.

And my point remains, even if you did stack hunters in those fights you still needed to understand and use the bossfight mechanics to do it, you cant just blast through it as you can do with Burglars @ Acid and Fire+Ice.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Ehm what?

If I remember correctly, Solstice was world first on the LT HM kill, and they used 1 hunter:
http://wn.com/Solstice_vs_the_Lieutenant_Hard_Mode

I didn't raid nevermind play much at all LotrO back in MoM, but of what I've been told Hunters were generally OP back then, and they had their nerfs.

And my point remains, even if you did stack hunters in those fights you still needed to understand and use the bossfight mechanics to do it, you cant just blast through it as you can do with Burglars @ Acid and Fire+Ice.

The video you have linked is not Solstice's first clearance and from memory for their first kill they used the broken corruptions to their advantage, there was a big flamefest on their home server Codemaster forums at the time.
Page 60 on http://archive.lotrocommunity.eu/en-...ession-60.html

Bad example is a bad example.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Ehm what?

If I remember correctly, Solstice was world first on the LT HM kill, and they used 1 hunter:
http://wn.com/Solstice_vs_the_Lieutenant_Hard_Mode

I didn't raid nevermind play much at all LotrO back in MoM, but of what I've been told Hunters were generally OP back then, and they had their nerfs.

And my point remains, even if you did stack hunters in those fights you still needed to understand and use the bossfight mechanics to do it, you cant just blast through it as you can do with Burglars @ Acid and Fire+Ice.

Solstice did use 1 Hunter... and 2 RKs and 2 LMs... no Champs... and one Burg whose job seemed to be to jump around doing nothing for most of the fight. And from the looks of that video, Solstice also exploited the fact that the +power cost corruption wasn't working properly at first.

Blarelius' point was made tongue-in-cheek, of course, but it has some validity - we've had a couple fights in which stacking ranged DPS made the fight much, much easier, but that's no reason to blame Hunters. Blame fight mechanics which heavily favored ranged DPS over melee DPS.

In the case of ToO Acid, blame the fact that it's a timer-based fight and the fact that people like to get through raids as fast as possible. (FWIW, our kin has just done Challenge the regular way all but one or two times, despite my pushing for the zerg method at least a week before anyone had actually done it. )

In the case of F&F... well... I'm just glad that Burg debuffs stack, otherwise we'd most likely still be complaining about a broken fight. Now it may still be broken, but at least we have a way to deal with it - a way which still requires understanding the fight mechanics, btw, and a way that involves spawning 6+ grims right on top of all those squishy burglars. Trust me, it doesn't make the fight easy mode.

Originally Posted by Lestache

Solstice did use 1 Hunter... and 2 RKs and 2 LMs... no Champs... and one Burg whose job seemed to be to jump around doing nothing for most of the fight. And from the looks of that video, Solstice also exploited the fact that the +power cost corruption wasn't working properly at first.

Blarelius' point was made tongue-in-cheek, of course, but it has some validity - we've had a couple fights in which stacking ranged DPS made the fight much, much easier, but that's no reason to blame Hunters. Blame fight mechanics which heavily favored ranged DPS over melee DPS.

I did not know that. But then again, what they did was avoiding some of the game mechanics, I dont see much difference from their tactic of avoiding bossfight mechanics and stacking Burglars to avoid bossfight mechanics.

I'll agree it favors ranged DPS, but I dont agree it favored Hunters over Rune-keepers, making Hunter stacking a supreme tactic as it the case with Burglars atm

Originally Posted by Lestache

In the case of ToO Acid, blame the fact that it's a timer-based fight and the fact that people like to get through raids as fast as possible. (FWIW, our kin has just done Challenge the regular way all but one or two times, despite my pushing for the zerg method at least a week before anyone had actually done it. )

Or blame the fact that Burglar Stacking allows each Burglar to do way, way more DPS than any of the actual DPS classes. I'd rather see one class changed than changing most DPS races now and in the future just to comply with something as silly as debuff stacking, especially as even the other debuff class, the Lore-master, afaik cannot stack debuffs.

Originally Posted by Lestache

In the case of F&F... well... I'm just glad that Burg debuffs stack, otherwise we'd most likely still be complaining about a broken fight. Now it may still be broken, but at least we have a way to deal with it - a way which still requires understanding the fight mechanics, btw, and a way that involves spawning 6+ grims right on top of all those squishy burglars. Trust me, it doesn't make the fight easy mode.

6+? I've done Fire and Frost Challenge, it does not require 6+ grims on top of the burglars. Furthermore, with Touch and Go at your hand, used before CD resets, again when spawning the set of grims and then perhaps even again (cant remember if RnA resets T&G but I'm fairly sure it does) gives Burglars +50% evade for about 1 minute and 10-20 seconds of a 2min 30 second fight. That is not squishy.

It's still a broken fight, the players have just found a way to exploit around it.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

It's still a broken fight, the players have just found a way to exploit around it.

Exactly. Broken FIGHT, not broken class. Burglar class mechanics, including stacking debuffs, have been around since the beginning of the game... it's only because of the nature of the current content that those mechanics have become a problem. Therefore, the content is at fault and should be changed, not the functionality of the class.

Personally, fights that last less than the length of a pop song are ridiculous. I really dislike DPS-race fights and think that they should be done away with.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

I did not know that. But then again, what they did was avoiding some of the game mechanics, I dont see much difference from their tactic of avoiding bossfight mechanics and stacking Burglars to avoid bossfight mechanics.

I'll agree it favors ranged DPS, but I dont agree it favored Hunters over Rune-keepers, making Hunter stacking a supreme tactic as it the case with Burglars atm



Or blame the fact that Burglar Stacking allows each Burglar to do way, way more DPS than any of the actual DPS classes. I'd rather see one class changed than changing most DPS races now and in the future just to comply with something as silly as debuff stacking, especially as even the other debuff class, the Lore-master, afaik cannot stack debuffs.



6+? I've done Fire and Frost Challenge, it does not require 6+ grims on top of the burglars. Furthermore, with Touch and Go at your hand, used before CD resets, again when spawning the set of grims and then perhaps even again (cant remember if RnA resets T&G but I'm fairly sure it does) gives Burglars +50% evade for about 1 minute and 10-20 seconds of a 2min 30 second fight. That is not squishy.

It's still a broken fight, the players have just found a way to exploit around it.

I don't see much of a functional difference between "ranged DPS > melee DPS" and "burgs > hunters" as far as a raid fight goes. Assuming both of our arguments are valid, they're both saying that there are fights in which certain classes are desirable and certain classes aren't: A & B > C & D is about the same to me as E > F (if that makes sense).

As for TnG, evade doesn't help vs. tactical attacks, which is what I think the grims do - I could be wrong, though. (Oh, and we spawn 6-7 just to be safe; considering the available classes, we don't have much of a choice but to spawn them on top of the burgs, since the Burgs are in melee range and 1-2 might even be in front spawning the grims (better than spawning on the LM, either of the healers, and the other tank is away tanking the other giant).

Finally, I'd hesitate to call Burg-stacking in these fights an exploit - in fact, I wouldn't call it such for the mere fact that I don't want to cheapen the impact of the word "exploit" by using it too broadly. This isn't taking advantage of a broken corruption (a la LT HM 1.0, negating the need to deal with the corruption cycle or any of the corruption debuffs) or standing in a doorway taking no damage (a la Moria instances). You still need to deal with the adds somewhat in the Acid fight, and all of the F&F mechanics are still in play - you don't get around any of them by Burg stacking.

Originally Posted by Cloudie-wan

Exactly. Broken FIGHT, not broken class. Burglar class mechanics, including stacking debuffs, have been around since the beginning of the game... it's only because of the nature of the current content that those mechanics have become a problem.

Just because they have been here since the beginning does not make it balanced. There has been several changes to the game compared to SoM, increased DPS, increased crit %, less BPE.
While the Hunter was changed to make up for these changes, mostly by changing the Strong Draw trait (that has also been here since the beginning afaik) completely, the Burglar did not get such changes except less BPE removed with Counter Defence.

Even if you stacked 4 Burglars in a SoM raid you'd get what, 15% crit chance, 6-7% dev chance and then 24% crit from 5 Counter Defences? We're around 39% crit here and 6-7% dev

Now with 4 Burglars we're talking 25% crit base, 10% dev base, 20% dev from Unseen, 24% from 5 Counter Defences and 5% crit from Lore-master debuff
That's 54% crit chance, almost 50% increase, and 30% devastate chance, over 4 times as much as in SoM.

Burglar DPS is (even more than other DPS classes) highly depending on getting criticals for opening crit response skills and devastates to receive the "+10% Positional damage and +20% Skills Critical Multiplier for 30s upon Devastating Critical" even more often than was the case before RoI.

Some of the crit and dev % is removed by Crit Defence, but we're still seeing a huge increase to crit chance when stacking Burglars, giving them way, way more DPS in the end.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

I did not know that. But then again, what they did was avoiding some of the game mechanics, I dont see much difference from their tactic of avoiding bossfight mechanics and stacking Burglars to avoid bossfight mechanics.

I'll agree it favors ranged DPS, but I dont agree it favored Hunters over Rune-keepers, making Hunter stacking a supreme tactic as it the case with Burglars atm



Or blame the fact that Burglar Stacking allows each Burglar to do way, way more DPS than any of the actual DPS classes. I'd rather see one class changed than changing most DPS races now and in the future just to comply with something as silly as debuff stacking, especially as even the other debuff class, the Lore-master, afaik cannot stack debuffs.



6+? I've done Fire and Frost Challenge, it does not require 6+ grims on top of the burglars. Furthermore, with Touch and Go at your hand, used before CD resets, again when spawning the set of grims and then perhaps even again (cant remember if RnA resets T&G but I'm fairly sure it does) gives Burglars +50% evade for about 1 minute and 10-20 seconds of a 2min 30 second fight. That is not squishy.

It's still a broken fight, the players have just found a way to exploit around it.

With only using 3 burgs, it is alot safer to spawn 6 grims. And it will be for sure needing 6 grims when we try and do this fight with only 2 burgs.

Where is this thread going?
1% Nerf burglars!!
99% No

Originally Posted by Jamesm429

With only using 3 burgs, it is alot safer to spawn 6 grims. And it will be for sure needing 6 grims when we try and do this fight with only 2 burgs.

Sure it is, if you survive. Who would you put in front of the Giants then? Only tank, burglars using TnG and perhaps captains can really survive that blast you get from 6 grims.

Originally Posted by AkasaSon

Where is this thread going?
1% Nerf burglars!!
99% No

Thanks for letting us know you are unable to use math.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Sure it is, if you survive. Who would you put in front of the Giants then? Only tank, burglars using TnG and perhaps captains can really survive that blast you get from 6 grims.



Thanks for letting us know you are unable to use math.

Thanks for ignoring every other post in this thread yet carrying on to try and make a point no one agrees with.

Originally Posted by AkasaSon

Thanks for ignoring every other post in this thread yet carrying on to try and make a point no one agrees with.

You need to reread the post again. There are several people in here who agrees with me at least to some degree:
Vodomir,
blarelius (burgs damage is too high because of the moors set, without it, it would be perfectly balanced.),
nolins12,
canyouaddcolour (agrees on the Unseen set nerf),
witchking782
Galborion (again unseen set)
Jullandar
Arathillion
Bond007
mmdur1
Miretocot
Smugo

Thanks for not reading the posts in the thread before commenting.

List those that disagree, and your point about a MP set that will be out of date in a few months is moot.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

You need to reread the post again. There are several people in here who agrees with me at least to some degree:
Vodomir,
blarelius (burgs damage is too high because of the moors set, without it, it would be perfectly balanced.),
nolins12,
canyouaddcolour (agrees on the Unseen set nerf),
witchking782
Galborion (again unseen set)
Jullandar
Arathillion
Bond007
mmdur1
Miretocot

Thanks for not reading the posts in the thread before commenting.

You got the Point - the most people think that the moors-set is to OP - not that the Class is the Problem...

Originally Posted by AkasaSon

List those that disagree, and your point about a MP set that will be out of date in a few months is moot.

It is not. The Devs need to know they made a OP set bonus so they dont repeat that bonus in the future - just like the Captain -20% Defeat Event Skills cooldown was repeated. EDIT and tbh, I think that set bonus is OP as well.

Originally Posted by Melmadoc

You got the Point - the most people think that the moors-set is to OP - not that the Class is the Problem...

Lets check again, 11 (now 12) people on the list, 3 of them only agrees on the set bonus, 8 (now 9) others on the stacking of RW.

Learn to use the word 'most' correctly please.

12 if you include me...I agree to a point with most of it, as I said earlier....

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Sure it is, if you survive. Who would you put in front of the Giants then? Only tank, burglars using TnG and perhaps captains can really survive that blast you get from 6 grims.

We only used 3 burgs on our successful run (and our runs that missed by 1-2 seconds). As for what we put in front of the Giant (to spawn 7 grims, I believe):

CBR Fervour Champ tank (yay!), Captain, Captain, Guardian who will be kiting the grims away from the group, Burg, Burg, Burg/2nd Champ (if present).

Yes, it's dicey, and I still don't think TnG helps there.

Honestly, once we got used to it, the toughest part was hoping that the grim spawn wouldn't lag out the healers or the kiting tank.

Originally Posted by Smugo

12 if you include me...I agree to a point with most of it, as I said earlier....

Ah sorry, I must have missed your post when counting people :/

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Sure it is, if you survive. Who would you put in front of the Giants then? Only tank, burglars using TnG and perhaps captains can really survive that blast you get from 6 grims.



Thanks for letting us know you are unable to use math.

I guess you have not seen our kill on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Cu1Y...2&feature=plcp

I am the mini, standing in front with 2 cappies, champ, hunter and guard.

Originally Posted by Jamesm429

I guess you have not seen our kill on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Cu1Y...2&feature=plcp

I am the mini, standing in front with 2 cappies, champ, hunter and guard.

I have not. I must admit I didnt think of the RK bubble (we only got 1 active RK atm) + our tactic is quite a lot different.

Burgs are terrible, they should be removed from the game. They are unkillable in the Moors, OP in raids, no one likes them. Even Turbine hates them with the introduction of the Steed of the Burglar. They even have a skill to make everyone sneeze, how annoying.

I didn't read this whole post except the OP.

Sir, your suggestions make no sense for the following reasons.
A) Burglar is less DPS than a hunter under any circumstance in a controlled raid environment.
B) Burglar is a buff class that benefits the rest of the group, thus stacking the class could counter high hunter DPS yes, however to remove certain skills and down certain class abilities because people choose to stack a class is nonsensical. The choice is theirs and lets face it not every raiding group can conjour up 4 decent gear burgs, nor does everyone want to play their alt.

What's the problem? That it can ONLY be downed with a multitude of burgs? I saw 3 burgs in some, I would not call 3 of one class excessive stacking, you will see 3 hunters in shadow, 3 minis and Saruman t2, hell some people 3 tanks for god knows what. 3 is not stacking and seeing as people have done it with 3 I'm saying its easily doable with 2.

The problem is people are lazy, not that the class is broken. Don't attempt to over-think and ruin a class because of other peoples choices. Don't stack burgs yourself and move on.

Originally Posted by YesMaam

I didn't read this whole post except the OP.

Sir, your suggestions make no sense for the following reasons....

The problem is people are lazy, not that the class is broken.

If you actually bothered to read the entire thread, you would not spout the factually-inaccurate "no sense" you are spouting.

Originally Posted by YesMaam

A) Burglar is less DPS than a hunter under any circumstance in a controlled raid environment.

With the Unseen armor set, Burglars out-DPS either a Hunter or a Champion in a short burn fight such as Acid or Fire & Frost Challenge. Otherwise show me a screenshot of Hunters doing over 4k DPS with 3 or fewer Burglars.

Further, perhaps a more important issue than raw DPS is (and this is something you would have recognized if you had actually read the damn thread) the fact that Burglars possess a far more effective aggro dump than Hunters or Champions--which makes their effective or practical DPS that much greater (especially if the tank is mediocre and has trouble holding aggro).

Originally Posted by YesMaam

B) Burglar is a buff class that benefits the rest of the group, thus stacking the class could counter high hunter DPS yes, however to remove certain skills and down certain class abilities because people choose to stack a class is nonsensical. The choice is theirs and lets face it not every raiding group can conjour up 4 decent gear burgs, nor does everyone want to play their alt.

The choice is not "theirs" if an encounter cannot be done without stacking a class. There is no choice.

Originally Posted by YesMaam

I
What's the problem? That it can ONLY be downed with a multitude of burgs? I saw 3 burgs in some, I would not call 3 of one class excessive stacking, you will see 3 hunters in shadow, 3 minis and Saruman t2, hell some people 3 tanks for god knows what. 3 is not stacking and seeing as people have done it with 3 [sic]

Most would call 3 Burglars in a raid "stacking."

Moreover, you are confusing the issue when you compare the specific class-stacking requirement in Fire & Frost Challenge to the "general class type"-stacking requirement in other encounters. That is, Shadow challenge is made easy by 3 ranged, not necessarily by 3 of a specific ranged class (Hunters in your example); likewise, Saruman is made easy by 3 healers, not 3 specific healing class (Ministrels in your example). But in Fire & Frost, you seem to need 3 Burglars, not 3 melee classes or 3 CC classes.

Originally Posted by YesMaam

I'm saying its easily doable with 2.

On what basis? Because you say so? So I guess every encounter that can be done with a specific number from a class can be done when you subtract 1 of that class from the raid group?

While it may be doable with 2 Burglars (in fact, I may have seen a video or screenshot with 2), it is by no means "easy."

Originally Posted by YesMaam

Don't stack burgs yourself and move on.

Yeah, so move on and just give up on the encounter?

Wow ... lol.

I was about to answer your post as well but Miretocot wrote pretty much what I would have written. I do have a bit to add though.

You dont consider 3 burglars to be "excessive stacking" - dont forget that it is 3 slots out of 5 DPS slots and that 3 currently is the minimum, afaik most of the current F+F challenges were done with 4 burglars in the 5 DPS slots.

Originally Posted by YesMaam

I'm saying its easily doable with 2. .

It's not easily doable even with 4 burglars, everyone needs high end gear (Burglars need to farm 30k some comms and Cappies half of that) and everything has to go smooth - e.g. if an Oathbreakers misses you might as well just reset it.

Saying its easily doable with 2 burglars is just plain wrong.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by YesMaam

Good to see people getting F/F Challenge finally. Can't wait to get in there this week and try it

Doesnt sound like you have much basis for saying anything about the F+F Challenge at all if you havent even tried it.

Originally Posted by Miretocot

With the Unseen armor set, Burglars out-DPS either a Hunter or a Champion in a short burn fight such as Acid or Fire & Frost Challenge.

Proof? It's not in the OP, btw.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Doesnt sound like you have much basis for saying anything about the F+F Challenge at all if you havent even tried it.

/facepalm.
http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...66#post6070166

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

You dont consider 3 burglars to be "excessive stacking" - dont forget that it is 3 slots out of 5 DPS slots and that 3 currently is the minimum, afaik most of the current F+F challenges were done with 4 burglars in the 5 DPS slots.

*shrug*
All versions of the watcher were beat with 10 hunters + 2 healers.

For DN + the SoA instances, stacking champs was optimal.

BG was more about RKs then hunters, to be honest. This was due to a combination of melee unfriendly mechanics and mitigations. Our server first kills were with 8 RKs.

Heck, I'll take it 1 further:
http://www.gamersbook.com/scene/cove...down-world-1st
12/25 were the same class There's plenty of other examples from multiple other games that I could bring to bear with a bit of digging. THAT'S raid stacking. It's actually a pretty common problems across MMOs with cutting edge groups (I've been part of a few of those groups, when I was on WoW progression raiding back in the day), only difference in LotRO is that they're slower to fix the encounters than most of the other dev teams.

All that is still ignoring that it's a very, VERY narrow band of content where burg stacking could even be considered desirable. As a melee only, single target only, crit and positional dependent style of play, the class has more built-in drawbacks than any other DPS class.

The OP is misinformed.