Thread: Stop Burglar Stacking from being a viable Strategy please

I just think the problem with nerfing base damage of the Burglar is that you will either want 0 or 5 of them in your raid. By nerfing the stacking part, perhaps even improve Reveal Weakness to 15% and make it unstackable, Burglars will have a spot without making a stack of Burglars OP.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

I just think the problem with nerfing base damage of the Burglar is that you will either want 0 or 5 of them in your raid. By nerfing the stacking part, perhaps even improve Reveal Weakness to 15% and make it unstackable, Burglars will have a spot without making a stack of Burglars OP.

that just means you will either want 0 or 1. is that really an improvement to the situation?

Originally Posted by tomiathon

that just means you will either want 0 or 1. is that really an improvement to the situation?

It's an improvement to the 0 or 5 situation you're proposing. The alternative, as proposed in OP, is to limit the amount of debuffs allowed or make each additional debuff smaller, so each Burglar debuff added is less useful. That way adding the third or fourth Burglar will be less useful and thereby (hopefully) make room for other classes.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

It's an improvement to the 0 or 5 situation you're proposing. The alternative, as proposed in OP, is to limit the amount of debuffs allowed or make each additional debuff smaller, so each Burglar debuff added is less useful. That way adding the third or fourth Burglar will be less useful and thereby (hopefully) make room for other classes.

again, i think you're proposing a fix to the wrong problem. the real problems are bad design and over-inflated dps. knee-capping the burglar might be easier, but it is knee-jerk. burg stacking it is not the real problem, only a symptom of it. the system needs to be adjusted, not the class. its a harder fix, but the only real one.

So you admit that the problem is with fight mechanics, yet your proposed solution is to nerf a specific class.

Is burg stacking a repeatable tactic in all boss fights? No.

Originally Posted by tomiathon

again, i think you're proposing a fix to the wrong problem. the real problems are bad design and over-inflated dps. knee-capping the burglar might be easier, but it is knee-jerk. burg stacking it is not the real problem, only a symptom of it. the system needs to be adjusted, not the class. its a harder fix, but the only real one.

Turbine already did many knee-jerk "fixes" to the burg class.

CJ-stun interrupting boss scripts? Oh let's just block CJs.
HIPS interrupting boss scripts? Oh let's just block HIPS.

Definitely an easier "solution" than implementing actual fixes to the problematic fights.

I wouldn't be too surprise if they do go ahead and block debuff-stacking in the future.

Originally Posted by tomiathon

again, i think you're proposing a fix to the wrong problem. the real problems are bad design and over-inflated dps. knee-capping the burglar might be easier, but it is knee-jerk. burg stacking it is not the real problem, only a symptom of it. the system needs to be adjusted, not the class. its a harder fix, but the only real one.

I dont see how your "solution" fixes anything. Damage is just a number X, Whether that X is 100, 1000 or 1000000 doesnt matter if all DPS classes can supply it when well played.

The problem here is that Burglars can supply higher DPS when stacked than any other combination of DPS classes can, and therefore even alt-Burglars or meh-geared Burglars are chosen over good Champs, Hunters and RKs.
Even if one of the other classes manage to make up for the missing RW and CD, that class would have to do a lot more DPS, and only the Burglar really has the aggro tools for handling the 2.5k-3.5k DPS needed to do Fire+Ice Challenge.

Originally Posted by Tamiya

So you admit that the problem is with fight mechanics, yet your proposed solution is to nerf a specific class.

Is burg stacking a repeatable tactic in all boss fights? No.

Yes, amongst proposing instance changes, I propose changes to the Burglar class because it is most likely easier and faster to implement, and the changes I propose will not change the Burglar class much anyway. I dont recall anywhere else but raids where Burglars want to meet up and stack debuffs.

Originally Posted by sdf-blarelius

burgs damage is too high because of the moors set, without it, it would be perfectly balanced.
That burgstacking helps in the raid is just a matter of bad fight mechanic design. It's only good in the f&f and acid wing (although it's really not needed there) because they trigger everything by timer and not by morale.

Burgs are melee dps, in a balanced raid you need 2 ranged dps, so you can't stack burgs. No need to nerf the most fun mechanic in the game, just make it useless in bossfights by adding the need of range, aoe, etc.

for vanish: it's a skill that makes the burg pretty unique and allows for good aggromanagement. Wardens -99% aggro is way more op than vanish since it effects the whole group :P

This. Nothing but truth here. The PVP set is imbalanced, not gonna argue that at all.

People are missing the main issue here. The people is not with single burgs dps or with any set bonus the burg has. the prople is with stacking effect of revealing weakness and counter defense. Sure there is dr on it however wheb you get that 3+ burgs the effect makes too much of a difference than adding additonal non burg classes. There is a reason why captains telling mark doesn't stack at all, same needs to be applied to burger debuffs.

This isn't anything new from gear or set bonus, buffs took out thorog in few mins and have been used in contents long before this raid was completed.

Originally Posted by witchking782

People are missing the main issue here. The people is not with single burgs dps or with any set bonus the burg has. the prople is with stacking effect of revealing weakness and counter defense. Sure there is dr on it however wheb you get that 3+ burgs the effect makes too much of a difference than adding additonal non burg classes. There is a reason why captains telling mark doesn't stack at all, same needs to be applied to burger debuffs.

I really dont get why people consider it to be diminishing returns.

If Person A does 2000 DPS and a RW is added, he now does 2200 DPS
If another RW is added, he does 2400DPS ?

That's not diminishing in my book, the second RW does just as much for his DPS as the first one.

i remember book 7 update after moria launch... is when they nerfed hunters into the ground because of hutner stacking the Watcher fight. trouble is, the watcher fight was broken, so that hunter stacking was the only viable strategy. (it was broken so that the melee corruptions could not be removed, so melee tanking the watcher was impossible, and also broken in that the small tentacles that randomly spawned could be exploited behind rocks, as well as the transition tentacles) and so one hugely broken lair raid was responsible for the extinction of the hunter class as we knew it... (until hunters were finally buffed back into usefulness as main Damage Dealers)

NOW, we have broken fights in ToO (with challenge modes that are just ... annoying, not fun, and failing the challenge makes tha fight harder instead of easier... i thought challenge mode was supposed to be be harder than regular tier 2) wheras burg stacking is pretty much the preffered strategy...

when is it okay for burgs to rack up 2700 DPS in raid settings when hunters can only rack up 2100? (based on various posted numbers on the forums through screenshots, videos on youtube, or testimony of hunters in ToO raid groups)

i don't want to see burgs really nerfed, honestly... i just want to see hunters be useful again as MAIN damage dealers in a raid. there's really nothing else hutners can do... not even CC, because LMs and burgs CC and debuff at the same time they CC, and burgs can CC, debuff, and DPS as well as hunters, all at the same time. my conclusion: buff hunter survivability (avoidances and incoming healing and slightly more melee damage to make others think twice about closing into melee with hunter) and group utility (like in combat bright campfire and tracking skills usable in combat to debuff mobs)

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Yes, amongst proposing instance changes, I propose changes to the Burglar class because it is most likely easier and faster to implement, and the changes I propose will not change the Burglar class much anyway. I dont recall anywhere else but raids where Burglars want to meet up and stack debuffs.

Stackable burg debuffs is the only reason to bring multiple burgs in raids. You are proposing a change that reduces burg presence in raids to 0~1. Yes that is a big change.

Again, is burg stacking a repeatable tactic in all boss fights? No.

Just as fights with lots of adds favour multiple champs for AOEs, and fights with lots of melee range damage favour multiple hunters for range, DPS races favour multiple burgs for stackable debuffs. What is wrong with that? What other utilities do burgs have in a boss fight if not RW+trick and DPS?

The fact is quite simply that F&F is stupidly overtuned, which makes it hard for other class combinations to complete the challenge, and it's that particular fight that needs adjustment. You don't change an entire class just to fix some specific encounters.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

If Person A does 2000 DPS and a RW is added, he now does 2200 DPS
If another RW is added, he does 2400DPS ?

Not quite. The second reveal weakness tops the DPS up to 2420.

Regardless; I am okay with burg stacking being a viable option. I do NOT agree with it being the ONLY option to complete content (Hello F&F CM).

Originally Posted by wasteland

Not quite. The second reveal weakness tops the DPS up to 2420.

Not true, burg marks, like most things of the same sort are additive, not multiplicative. Damage bonus is added 100% + 10% + 10% = 120%, NOT 100% x 110% x 110% = 121%.

Originally Posted by Smugo

Not true, burg marks, like most things of the same sort are additive, not multiplicative. Damage bonus is added 100% + 10% + 10% = 120%, NOT 100% x 110% x 110% = 121%.

Source?

I thought it was
100%*(1,1)^x
x = DMG-Signs (Burg/Captain)

Originally Posted by Tamiya

Stackable burg debuffs is the only reason to bring multiple burgs in raids. You are proposing a change that reduces burg presence in raids to 0~1. Yes that is a big change.

Again, is burg stacking a repeatable tactic in all boss fights? No.

Just as fights with lots of adds favour multiple champs for AOEs, and fights with lots of melee range damage favour multiple hunters for range, DPS races favour multiple burgs for stackable debuffs. What is wrong with that? What other utilities do burgs have in a boss fight if not RW+trick and DPS?

The fact is quite simply that F&F is stupidly overtuned, which makes it hard for other class combinations to complete the challenge, and it's that particular fight that needs adjustment. You don't change an entire class just to fix some specific encounters.

I am not.

With buff stacking removed, a raid can still bring a couple of Burglars if they want and do ToO T2. You can easily have 2 burgs at each of the other bosses of ToO T2 regardless of stacking RW+CD or not. Furthermore, Burglar actually do have other debuffs they can apply, just like Captains have different marks to make use of (I know there's no alternative to RW).

ToO has room for Melee DPS in every single fight, and if the raid has some good Burglars and Champions, they're useful for those fights - but the Burglar is better. At best the Champion is a bit better for trash mobs.
There's no fight where I would not want the debuffs of a Burglar, and since they also do top tier DPS now with the Unseen set without stacking debuffs you can easily fit in 2 Burglars for ToO T2 and still do every single fight.

It's quite simple:
1. The Fire and Ice Challenge is broken, its too hard to complete correctly
2. Burglar Stacking allows you to break bossfights, ignore mechanics and simplify the fight

I dont see where else you would want to stack Burglars debuffs but in raids and that's where fights get broken by it. I dont see the loss you get by removing it, Burglars are still the best choice for 1 target DPS - even though they shouldn't be.

There I'm still adamant that one of three things should happen:
1. Remove debuff stacking
2. Nerf/Change Unseen set
3. Ban or nerf HiPS for raid fights

No matter what, the Fire and Ice Challenge has to be changed so it is actually possible to do correctly.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

There I'm still adamant that one of three things should happen:
1. Remove debuff stacking
2. Nerf/Change Unseen set
3. Ban or nerf HiPS for raid fights

No matter what, the Fire and Ice Challenge has to be changed so it is actually possible to do correctly.

I agree with number 2. And of course with bad design of F&F challenge. But nerf a class because of bad design of encounter? That is the worst idea ever. It happened in the past (like with hunters @ Watcher fight) and it was wrong! The whole problem is in design of instance/bossfight. With good design this topic would never existed. Do not blame burglars for this.

They should remove the buff stacking from reveal weakness, just like captain's telling mark. Burglar is a debuff class, but stacking reveal weaknesses makes it a superb DPS class for raids.

Let burglars stack tricks like it is now.
Remove reveal weakness stacking.
Let the PvMP set as it is now, level cap will increase soon anyways.

What is this fuss about hunters being nerfed due to the watcher fight? Nice spreading of false information. The DPS nerf affected all legendary weapons across the board and not only the hunters. What you perceived as a hunter nerf was in fact a global DPS nerf across all classes. They nerfed the weapons, not only a specific class.

The class vs class pissing matches ignore the main point here.

The problem isn't with the BRG class, it's with the design of the fights. Anything with events happening on a timer favours BRG-stacking. So, stop using timers in fights. Base events on morale thresholds - like Shadow - and the problem goes away. Acid could perfectly well work on thresholds instead without making any difference to the mechanics and without any need to change the way BRG skills work.

As for F&F, the fight is impossible to do the intended way. The kins to have killed the Giants in challenge mode have all done it the same way - blitz one Giant before his first bubble while spawning enough grims to kill the second giant on zero rage. This cannot be done with less than 3 BRGs. But the fight cannot be done any other way. Blame the fight design, not the class.

Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

The class vs class pissing matches ignore the main point here.

The problem isn't with the BRG class, it's with the design of the fights. Anything with events happening on a timer favours BRG-stacking. So, stop using timers in fights. Base events on morale thresholds - like Shadow - and the problem goes away. Acid could perfectly well work on thresholds instead without making any difference to the mechanics and without any need to change the way BRG skills work.

As for F&F, the fight is impossible to do the intended way. The kins to have killed the Giants in challenge mode have all done it the same way - blitz one Giant before his first bubble while spawning enough grims to kill the second giant on zero rage. This cannot be done with less than 3 BRGs. But the fight cannot be done any other way. Blame the fight design, not the class.

This.

moar words...

Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar

The class vs class pissing matches ignore the main point here.

The problem isn't with the BRG class, it's with the design of the fights. Anything with events happening on a timer favours BRG-stacking. So, stop using timers in fights. Base events on morale thresholds - like Shadow - and the problem goes away. Acid could perfectly well work on thresholds instead without making any difference to the mechanics and without any need to change the way BRG skills work.

As for F&F, the fight is impossible to do the intended way. The kins to have killed the Giants in challenge mode have all done it the same way - blitz one Giant before his first bubble while spawning enough grims to kill the second giant on zero rage. This cannot be done with less than 3 BRGs. But the fight cannot be done any other way. Blame the fight design, not the class.

Using morale based triggers only restricts the design options for interesting encounters (and would make events in those fights fully controllable by your raid/group, as you alone decide when you trigger the next phase, set of skills, add spawns etc) so that's not the best option either. I'm with those who say disallow Reveal Weakness to stack.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

Using morale based triggers only restricts the design options for interesting encounters (and would make events in those fights fully controllable by your raid/group

I agree, good encounters should be both, timerbased and moralebased, so you still need that dps, but dps alone won't be a solution. Best example: shadowfight. a perfectly designed encounter, using timer and moraletriggers, has the need of ranged damage and cc, etc.

Stopping reveal weakness from stacking would make any 2nd burg useless, because in a good encounter he can't always dps, is kinda squishy (especcially to tactical aoe) and will be replaced by a hunter/champ. It wouldn't be even viable to use a 2nd burg, while right now it's totally viable to use any kind of class multiple times. You can see it at every trashpull, where every hunter does more dps than a burg, simple because the burg has to run to the target while the hunter can dps all the time. Burgstacking is only op for single target bosses, that don't do a lot of aoe, do not move, allow melee damage, do not have any debuffs in meleerange and can be zerged and tbh, encounters shouldn't be designed like that.

I agree as well that the unseen set is too strong, but since lvl 85 is coming soon, that will be obsolent anyways.

Originally Posted by sdf-blarelius

I agree, good encounters should be both, timerbased and moralebased, so you still need that dps, but dps alone won't be a solution. Best example: shadowfight. a perfectly designed encounter, using timer and moraletriggers, has the need of ranged damage and cc, etc.

Stopping reveal weakness from stacking would make any 2nd burg useless, because in a good encounter he can't always dps, is kinda squishy (especcially to tactical aoe) and will be replaced by a hunter/champ. It wouldn't be even viable to use a 2nd burg, while right now it's totally viable to use any kind of class multiple times. You can see it at every trashpull, where every hunter does more dps than a burg, simple because the burg has to run to the target while the hunter can dps all the time. Burgstacking is only op for single target bosses, that don't do a lot of aoe, do not move, allow melee damage, do not have any debuffs in meleerange and can be zerged and tbh, encounters shouldn't be designed like that.

I agree as well that the unseen set is too strong, but since lvl 85 is coming soon, that will be obsolent anyways.

Why would a second Burg all of a sudden becom undesirable? Burgs still do top notch DPS, contribute to CC (very desirable for trash pulls) and can debuff all at the same time. As for the viabilty of any kind of class, how many Loremasters do you usually bring? And what makes the Burg so special compared to a LM that he deserves taking 2 or more slots in a raid as opposed to the LM? If Reveal Weakness would be disallowed to stack, it would still be viable to bring a second burg, it just wouldn't be mandatory to bring 3 or more burgs to certain fights.

Originally Posted by Vodomir

Why would a second Burg all of a sudden becom undesirable? Burgs still do top notch DPS, contribute to CC (very desirable for trash pulls) and can debuff all at the same time. As for the viabilty of any kind of class, how many Loremasters do you usually bring? And what makes the Burg so special compared to a LM that he deserves taking 2 or more slots in a raid as opposed to the LM? If Reveal Weakness would be disallowed to stack, it would still be viable to bring a second burg, it just wouldn't be mandatory to bring 3 or more burgs to certain fights.

ya, loremasters suffer the same problem burgs would if it gets nerfed (+there is no need for aoe damage at any bossfights right now). burg dps is only top tier because of the moors set right now. For cc: 3 mezzes are enough for every single boss/trashpull, so you do not need a 2nd burg for that. I dunno where i would need a 2nd burg for his cc in orthanc. You would just be better off without a 2nd lm/burg, and take more dps instead and i dont think thats a good way to go. There are so few lms out there that you rarely have the problem that you have too many lms. with burgs it's different since there are a lot of them (at least on our server). If burg becomes a 2nd lm with worse debuffs etc, that would make a lot of players pretty frustrated i guess, since there won't be many raids that want another burg.

PS: f&f is possible with only 2 burgs, you just need really really good dps and be a bit lucky that you do not get a bubble. A 3rd burg only makes it safer that you can burn through a bubble at the 1st boss in time as well.

I'm surprised people are actually arguing over this. Stackable burg marks are probably the single most OP thing in the game and has been for a long time. AFAIK there is not a single debuff from other classes that stack like that.

We are not arguing to nerf burgs, just that their marks would be fixed to comply with common sense and the rest of the game.

A second and 3rd burg would still be useful (although not mandatory) if they realize they can use different tricks on the target. It would also be wonderful if Reveal Weakness would have different effects depending on the burglar's stance. "A red, blue and yellow burg walked into the bar..."

By the same logic, we could petition for captain marks and LM debuffs to be stackable. Only game mechanics would become even more out of whack after that.

As it's said before, a diminishing return for stacking reveal weakness and the other burg debuffs like counter defense would be the solution imo.

For example:

1 rw = 100%
2 rw = 115%
3 rw = 117,5%
4 rw = 118,75 %
and so on

A second burg wouldn't be useless any further maybe.

With this way you don't need to nerf the class or sets or ban any skills from a raid.

I think most folks would agree with this statement:

Ideally, having 1 of each class plus a few doubles should be the best approach for raids

Why? Otherwise folks pet classes get left out. If the best group is 5 champs and a mini for all 6 mans due to extreme blender action, where is the place for others? If the best way to do a raid is (hypothetically) 2 minis, 8 burgs, an RK, and a Guard, well, not fun if you aren't running one of those classes.

If all Captain skills stacked, Captains would be really over-the-top BTW. Telling Mark (+10% incoming damage) + Revealing Mark (+15-20% damage returned as morale) + Command Armor (+10% incoming damage) would mean, well, don't need pretty much anyone else except for some CC or ranged. The raid level skills (Reveal Weakness, Captain Marks, target debuffs, etc) are really really strong when stacked, because everyone is getting the benefits...

1)Content is (widely considered) impossible without a certain class
2)That class dramatically changes other content's difficulty level too, and has a history of this
3)No other class can imitate/compete with this
4)This class's "role" according to LOTRO devs does not even fall along top tier dps, yet it is.

^ Tell me again how that doesn't mean burglars are OP?

It's never any instance's fault if the instance is harder without a certain class yet easier with that class. It's the class at fault, not the fight. If they just changed ToO fights to make them plausible without burg stacking, they'd not be undertaken by non-burg stacking groups, they would be facerolled by the burg stacking groups that already do them with a little challenge right now.

Originally Posted by Jullandar

I'm surprised people are actually arguing over this. Stackable burg marks are probably the single most OP thing in the game and has been for a long time. AFAIK there is not a single debuff from other classes that stack like that.

We are not arguing to nerf burgs, just that their marks would be fixed to comply with common sense and the rest of the game.

A second and 3rd burg would still be useful (although not mandatory) if they realize they can use different tricks on the target. It would also be wonderful if Reveal Weakness would have different effects depending on the burglar's stance. "A red, blue and yellow burg walked into the bar..."

By the same logic, we could petition for captain marks and LM debuffs to be stackable. Only game mechanics would become even more out of whack after that.

No no no no.

It's not OP - it's fun.

Originally Posted by sdf-blarelius

Burgs are melee dps, in a balanced raid you need 2 ranged dps, so you can't stack burgs. No need to nerf the most fun mechanic in the game, just make it useless in bossfights by adding the need of range, aoe, etc.

Instances could be changed to diminish the OPness of debuff stacking, but then every bossfight would be quite like Shadow T2HM if time is to be a factor - perhaps with some added 360 AoE damage.

Originally Posted by Arathilion

As it's said before, a diminishing return for stacking reveal weakness and the other burg debuffs like counter defense would be the solution imo.

For example:

1 rw = 100%
2 rw = 115%
3 rw = 117,5%
4 rw = 118,75 %
and so on

A second burg wouldn't be useless any further maybe.

With this way you don't need to nerf the class or sets or ban any skills from a raid.

I think that this is an excellent solution.

I love burgs and I don't want to see them nerfed to oblivion, but having RW stack as it does today is stupid OP. No other raid buff in the game stacks in this fashion, period. Adding real DR as this poster suggests would solve the problem while still making it attractive to bring more than one burg (a 5% damage buff is still very significant in a raid context), while making it less attactive to bring 3-4, which is as it should be.

Originally Posted by mmdur1

I think that this is an excellent solution.

I love burgs and I don't want to see them nerfed to oblivion, but having RW stack as it does today is stupid OP. No other raid buff in the game stacks in this fashion, period. Adding real DR as this poster suggests would solve the problem while still making it attractive to bring more than one burg (a 5% damage buff is still very significant in a raid context), while making it less attactive to bring 3-4, which is as it should be.

Yeah I agree, how it should be scaled (10,5,2.5,1.25 or 10,8,6,4,2 or something else) needs some balancing of course, but I do think that the concept would work in order to make Burglar Stacking a strategy without making it THE strategy.

It should also apply to Counter Defence though - with 4 burglars that's 24% extra crit chance, perhaps even another 5% from the Lore-master, up to 25% from own crit rating and 10% dev and finally 20% dev from Unseen set.

That pretty much guarantees that the Burglar will have his Crit Response buff on all the time, and I think Counter Defence has a greater impact on DPS than RW as the fourth Burglar or more is added to the raid.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

No no no no.

It's not OP - it's fun.

I don't see how the two things are mutually incompatible: What is "fun" for one man is "over-powered" or "broken" for others. Sure, if Champions got 50 percent damage bonus and 50 percent attack duration reduction in Fervour stance, it would be really "fun" for the Champions, but it would also be grossly over-powered. And you can make up other outlandish hypotheticals.

Anyways, I play a Burglar, but the class is laughably over-powered in terms of raid utility, and whoever doesn't see it either has little end-game raid experience or is willfully blind. In particular, I think most of the folks who defend the current state of the Burglar class neglect the fact that the class is absolutely unique in that there are certain encounters (e.g. Fire & Frost Challenge) where that class must be stacked in order to complete them and thereby crowd out other DPS classes. (No, Roots of Fangorn counter-example is a silly analogy, as I have completed it many times on my Burglar.)

Nonetheless, I would suggest something else than to nerf stackable Burglar de-buffs or Burglar DPS, since I believe "nerfing" or taking things away from a class that has had them for a long time is always a bad way to balance things--albeit more efficient way (simply because it is easier to nerf a class than boost all the others).

Instead, my suggestion is to give other DPS classes more utility in raids so that they will be at least represented, if not represented proportionally. In particular, it would be helpful if Champions and Hunters received useful raid buffs or de-buffs; and possibly Hunters could receive superior CC abilities as well than they currently possess. In this way, everyone can come out happy, though it would be more work for the lazy devs.

In terms of concrete suggestions, I think Champions could get something like "Embolden," which would give his group half of what Champions receive in Fervour stance, without the drawbacks: Namely 10 percent damage bonus and -10 percent attack duration (without the inability to Evade or Parry). I know that Champions have Improved Rend, but the armor reduction is really minor (not enough to ever want a Champion for it instead of Burglar de-buffs) and not useful in many encounters anyways due to its linkage to an AOE attack. And Hunters could get something like "Spot," which would give the entire raid something like 15 percent damage bonus and 7 percent crit chance--higher than the Burglar de-buffs but also non-stackable. (If this feels too high, you could also make it ranged-only and increase the percentages to compensate as well.) In addition, Hunters could use shorter cooldown on Distracting Shot to make it comparable to Burglar Riddle, albeit fiddle with it so that it is slightly worse.

The basic idea is that every DPS or quasi-DPS class ought to bring something to the table where the inclusion of at least 1 representative from each class is warranted. And right now, given the Burglar stackable de-buffs and high DPS, there is no reason to bring Champions or Hunters to certain fights at all.

Originally Posted by Miretocot

I don't see how the two things are mutually incompatible: What is "fun" for one man is "over-powered" or "broken" for others. Sure, if Champions got 50 percent damage bonus and 50 percent attack duration reduction in Fervour stance, it would be really "fun" for the Champions, but it would also be grossly over-powered. And you can make up other outlandish hypotheticals.

Anyways, I play a Burglar, but the class is laughably over-powered in terms of raid utility, and whoever doesn't see it either has little end-game raid experience or is willfully blind. In particular, I think most of the folks who defend the current state of the Burglar class neglect the fact that the class is absolutely unique in that there are certain encounters (e.g. Fire & Frost Challenge) where that class must be stacked in order to complete them and thereby crowd out other DPS classes. (No, Roots of Fangorn counter-example is a silly analogy, as I have completed it many times on my Burglar.)

Nonetheless, I would suggest something else than to nerf stackable Burglar de-buffs or Burglar DPS, since I believe "nerfing" or taking things away from a class that has had them for a long time is always a bad way to balance things--albeit more efficient way (simply because it is easier to nerf a class than boost all the others).

Instead, my suggestion is to give other DPS classes more utility in raids so that they will be at least represented, if not represented proportionally. In particular, it would be helpful if Champions and Hunters received useful raid buffs or de-buffs; and possibly Hunters could receive superior CC abilities as well than they currently possess. In this way, everyone can come out happy, though it would be more work for the lazy devs.

In terms of concrete suggestions, I think Champions could get something like "Embolden," which would give his group half of what Champions receive in Fervour stance, without the drawbacks: Namely 10 percent damage bonus and -10 percent attack duration (without the inability to Evade or Parry). I know that Champions have Improved Rend, but the armor reduction is really minor (not enough to ever want a Champion for it instead of Burglar de-buffs) and not useful in many encounters anyways due to its linkage to an AOE attack. And Hunters could get something like "Spot," which would give the entire raid something like 15 percent damage bonus and 7 percent crit chance--higher than the Burglar de-buffs but also non-stackable. (If this feels too high, you could also make it ranged-only and increase the percentages to compensate as well.) In addition, Hunters could use shorter cooldown on Distracting Shot to make it comparable to Burglar Riddle, albeit fiddle with it so that it is slightly worse.

The basic idea is that every DPS or quasi-DPS class ought to bring something to the table where the inclusion of at least 1 representative from each class is warranted. And right now, given the Burglar stackable de-buffs and high DPS, there is no reason to bring Champions or Hunters to certain fights at all.

Lets just say I like to use sarcasm I do think its OP, hence one of the main reasons I made this thread. I just thought it was funny a Burglar considers stacking a skill, that does nothing but give extra inc damage on the boss, to be fun.

I like your suggestion on non-stackable class specific buffs, it was one of the few things I liked in SWTOR. I am not sure if it will fix the issues at hand though, I want the Burglars nerfed but only somewhat, I still want them to have an important part in the raid.

Originally Posted by Elrantiri

Lets just say I like to use sarcasm I do think its OP, hence one of the main reasons I made this thread. I just thought it was funny a Burglar considers stacking a skill, that does nothing but give extra inc damage on the boss, to be fun.

I like your suggestion on non-stackable class specific buffs, it was one of the few things I liked in SWTOR. I am not sure if it will fix the issues at hand though, I want the Burglars nerfed but only somewhat, I still want them to have an important part in the raid.

Oops! I forgot you were the original poster.

I read the 1st page of this thread yesterday but didn't have time to read the rest nor time to post

I do recall devs saying in the past that the mechanic of Burg debuffs stacking was partly intended to compensate for the way their debuffs pale in comparison to an LM's. "More effective in packs" was the mantra I recall hearing from a blue-name more than once over the years. I bet they didn't quite anticipate the 7-Burg Ivar kills and things like that. Kinda poor foresight.

I'd be fine if they dropped stacking - because it does prevent some fights from being done as intended by certain groups - mine included. You think I'm going to waste my time on a lame Mario-esque absence-of-lag dependent break every couple minutes of a fight when I can have the fight over completely in less than 100s?
Right-O. I might be dumb, but I'm not stupid.

Regardless, no one "in the know" ever came out and said the zerg strat was an exploit. Maybe it's not as they intended, but then I would bet that many bosses are beaten in ways the devs did not directly foresee when they made the encounter. Just sayin'... The zerg strat still forces you to see every mechanic in the fight except the run and jmup. I figure not having to do that BS is my reward for killing him in less than 100s.

If they were to drop stacking, then they would need to compensate in some manner. They would have to kick the debuffs up at least 10-20% higher than they are as well as give us a titch more DPS. If the strength of Burgs was intended to be in numbers, then we're going to need some reparations if they take that away.
Other than that, they could introduce diminishing returns beyond what exists now and probably keep just about everything else the same.

HiPS has presented a "problem" in every raid. Every raid. It's the nature of the skill. But a Burg without HiPS is just not a Burg, sorry.

Ultimately, I think better foresight when designing these raids could help a great deal. You can't blame Burgs for vulnerable content, sorry. Other than Ivar and maybe Thorog, Burg-stacking in the past was either kept really hush-hush or else it was just not that practical.
I'm betting on the latter, so where does the real problem lie here? Seems obvious.

Out of 9 classes, there is no reason a burg should hold more than one spot in the raid. The debuffs of RW should not stack at all.

2 tanks, 2 healers, 2 capts, 1 lm, 1 burg, that leaves 4 for dpsers. What is happening right now is those dps slots are being filled by burgs because of the RW debuff.

Originally Posted by witchking782

Out of 9 classes, there is no reason a burg should hold more than one spot in the raid. The debuffs of RW should not stack at all.

2 tanks, 2 healers, 2 capts, 1 lm, 1 burg, that leaves 4 for dpsers. What is happening right now is those dps slots are being filled by burgs because of the RW debuff.

While I like the 2 capts part of the above ( as I mostly play mine ), I slightly disagree. I think it should be totally reasonably to have 2 of any class in a raid. Just that there shouldn't be any benefit to stacking beyond that. I think it shouldn't become "we have our 1 burg, a second is pretty much pointless". Not that it would be now even without the stacking RW, but I wouldn't want it to become that. Some kins may not have all the class flexibility they'd like and may stack out of Hobson's choice rather than design...

I'd be good with "no more than 2 of any given debuff" can be applied rule myself, that is simpler rule to enforce than various diminishing returns for stacked debuffs.

Originally Posted by Melmadoc

Source?

I thought it was
100%*(1,1)^x
x = DMG-Signs (Burg/Captain)

No, it's additive. You can test it easily in game if you have 3-4 Burgs with about 10 minutes to kill.
With that, there are diminishing returns in a relative sense even though each Reveal adds another 10%.

110/100 > 120/110 > 130/120 etc...

Each increase is less than the previous, but even the 5th RW still increases DPS more than 7% over having 4. A kin friend calculated that in a zerg fight like Acid, it would take about 6 Burgs (not even exceptionally played Burgs) before you could rationalize prioritizing any other DPS class (no matter how well played) from a pure (practical) DPS standpoint. It's kind of insane, really.

If Turbine allows the use of only 1 reveal weakness, they can also give burgs a 2nd 'reveal weakness' only with a different effect, like +8% miss chance. So in that case 2 burgs wouldn't be useless because they can put different marks on the target.