Stop Burglar Stacking from being an OP Raid Strategy please
EDIT: The title is wrong, I dont mind Burglar Stacking being a viable strat, I mind when it is OP, can avoid game mechanics and even become a required tactic.
I'm changing this post as new information turns up, so the first reponses might be referring stuff not present here anymore.
Several of the bossfights in ToO are 1 target, and the more DPS you do, the faster (and easier) it gets. So far so good.
Sadly, what was once meant to be Tier 2 DPS class has now taken the throne when it comes to doing as much DPS without grabbing aggro (or at least getting rid of the aggro asap):
Originally Posted by Zombie_Columbus
No. Burglar DPS < Hunter DPS.
If ZC actually meant this, why are we seeing Burglar Stacking being THE viable strategy? Why are we seeing Burglars take so many DPS spots for all of the bossfights in ToO? My main is a Hunter, and while it has it uses, Burglars have effectively become the main DPS class for several raid bosses.
One thing is that one DPS class may have an advantage on other classes for one fight, but what we are seeing here is at the point where a boss fight is actually ruined by using burglars.
Acid Tier 2 HM was meant to be a fight where you output a lot of DPS, use rather precise timing in killing adds and then avoid geysers while wearing out your spacebar:
However, with Burglar Stacking the fight takes less than half the time and becomes a regular tank and spank with some Fellowships Heart and perhaps IHW+LS in the end: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LXAs4jlmbM
7 kinships who have done Fire and Frost Challenge and posted in progression thread so far:
Total amount of burglars: 24
Total amount of champions: 5
Total amount of hunters: 3
Total amount of runekeepers: 4 (and 1 of them is a healing RK afaik)
The numbers really speak for themselves. By stacking Reveal Weakness and Counter Defence and use HiPS once or twice, Burglars can reach higher DPS than any other class while disposing of aggro more efficiently than any other class.
The Burglar Stacking effect became even worse with Update 6 because of a PvP set (Unseen), as it allows Burglars to reach 30% devastate chance on top of the 25% crit chance and additional crit chance from Counter Defence. What was supposed to be a set for use in the Ettenmoors became a set of some use in PvP and by far the best DPS set in PvE. Only this fella can really explain how I feel about this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hBTqgCGnhU
Suggested fixes (More are added as we go)(I dont expect all these suggestion to be implemented, rather that one of them should be implemented):
1. Make stacking of Reveal Weakness and Counter Defence impossible, limit it to a certain amount (2 or 3?) or decrease the power of each additional debuff (first RW is 10%, next 8%, next 6%) - perhaps add other types of Reveals to copy the options of a Captain, e.g. Reveal Strength for -x% outgoing damage from target or +x% miss chance, Reveal Opportunity for +x% dev or crit and Reveal Intentions for -x Finesse on target.
1a. Reduce the effect of tricks and make all of them AoE with 3 targets, make current Dust AoE trait increase range or amount of target.
2. Ban HiPS from ToO just like you did at Draigoch, or make the functionality like Hobbit flop so aggro is not reset unless fight is reset.
3. Nerf or change the Unseen set. It was meant for PvP, so make it for PvP. The buff is so much more useful for PvE than PvP.
4. Change the current and coming fights so bossfight mechanics relies on morale rather than time, or a combination.
The Fire and Frost Challenge has to be fixed no matter what, but that's already covered in the "F&F is actually impossible" thread.
Last edited by Elrantiri; Jul 01 2012 at 07:15 AM.
I think they shouldn't fix (nerv) the Burg - they shouldn't allow these tactics with making things depend on % of Life - I've never seen a Group with more than 2 Burgs doing Shadow CM - because in this Fight the main stats of the Boss are Triggert by his Moral and not by time...
I agree if you say that Burgs-DPS is to high with the PvP-Set and that it shouldn't be allowed in PvE or nerved (but not for all classes - Captains only have one chance to get their CD for their Victory-Effects lowered -> PvP-Set
without the Set - Burg DPS is Fine (on a level with Champs and Hunters) - a Burg dies more often than other DDs by AE-Damage because he's Medium Armour and Melee - you couldn't play Saruman T2 before they fixed it as a Burg...
Nerf the PvP-Set, let Bosses trigger their effects by Moral and not by Time (maybe an Enrage or a Timer like for Shadow, but not things like in Acid...) and all is fine..
In some fights the Burglar stand's at one point, most of the time, than his DPS is really good.
But when the Burglar has to move to the next target, or can't stay on current target (eg. Saruman with the fields on the ground), DPS is going down rapidly.
There are enough advantages for a ranged DPS-Class (It's hard to find a 'Roots of Fangorn'-Group with a Burglar).
So for me it's fair, that the Burglar has it's special Tricks.
I think they shouldn't fix (nerv) the Burg - they shouldn't allow these tactics with making things depend on % of Life - I've never seen a Group with more than 2 Burgs doing Shadow CM - because in this Fight the main stats of the Boss are Triggert by his Moral and not by time...
I agree if you say that Burgs-DPS is to high with the PvP-Set and that it shouldn't be allowed in PvE or nerved (but not for all classes - Captains only have one chance to get their CD for their Victory-Effects lowered -> PvP-Set
without the Set - Burg DPS is Fine (on a level with Champs and Hunters) - a Burg dies more often than other DDs by AE-Damage because he's Medium Armour and Melee - you couldn't play Saruman T2 before they fixed it as a Burg...
Nerf the PvP-Set, let Bosses trigger their effects by Moral and not by Time (maybe an Enrage or a Timer like for Shadow, but not things like in Acid...) and all is fine..
That would work yeah, but I still think HiPS should be deactivated in raids, along with RnA it's just too effective for "managing" aggro.
About the Captain set - it's outright silly that one of the best PvP and PvE set bonuses are only really available on a PvP set.
Originally Posted by xfgjh68
In some fights the Burglar stand's at one point, most of the time, than his DPS is really good.
But when the Burglar has to move to the next target, or can't stay on current target (eg. Saruman with the fields on the ground), DPS is going down rapidly.
There are enough advantages for a ranged DPS-Class (It's hard to find a 'Roots of Fangorn'-Group with a Burglar).
So for me it's fair, that the Burglar has it's special Tricks.
1. You're comparing a 6 man instance to the current raid cluster. I'm only talking about raids as this is the hardest PvE in the game.
2. Roots of Fangorn group:
1 Tank
1 Healer
1 LM
1 Melee DPS
1 Ranged DPS
1 Captain
At the first boss champs has an advantage because of AoE DPS on adds (but not required), at last boss burglar has advantage because there's only one target while Ranged DPS+LM takes care of small spiders.
There's just about as much room for Burglars as there is for other classes, perhaps with an advantage to ranged DPS. However, it's far from the numbers we're seeing on Fire and Ice Challenge.
Last edited by Elrantiri; Jun 20 2012 at 10:10 AM.
You are jealous of burgs because they are viable in a couple aspects of an end game raid? Yet still not overly viable in other aspects (RoF is not burg friendly; it is extremely hunter friendly)
For a long long time burgs couldn't get into ANY raids because they offered no value.
Class stacking has always been a part of this game. Turtle run with all RKs? Forges with 5 champs and a cappy? There are numerous examples of class stacking. If you want to run an instance with a balanced group, then find a leader (or be a leader) that sets it up that way.
You are free to not join any group that you don't want to.
Don't target one specific class (burg) because you feel something is unbalanced.
Why not suggest that all PVP gear be only useable in the moors?
Why not ban the mini play dead skill or the hobbit flop? They work the same was as HiPS does in dropping aggro.
You are jealous of burgs because they are viable in a couple aspects of an end game raid? Yet still not overly viable in other aspects (RoF is not burg friendly; it is extremely hunter friendly)
For a long long time burgs couldn't get into ANY raids because they offered no value.
Class stacking has always been a part of this game. Turtle run with all RKs? Forges with 5 champs and a cappy? There are numerous examples of class stacking. If you want to run an instance with a balanced group, then find a leader (or be a leader) that sets it up that way.
You are free to not join any group that you don't want to.
Don't target one specific class (burg) because you feel something is unbalanced.
Why not suggest that all PVP gear be only useable in the moors?
Why not ban the mini play dead skill or the hobbit flop? They work the same was as HiPS does in dropping aggro.
Seriously, why the attack on burgs?
Because all of the examples you are giving are fights you can actually do with other classes. You dont NEED any RKs to do Turtle, you dont need any champs to do Forges. So far NOONE has done Fire + Ice Challenge with less than 3 burglars. Burglars are not only viable for this fight, they're required.
EDIT: Minstrel are not viable raid DPS, so why compare with them? I dont compare my hunters mitigations to a guardian either.
Hobbit flop doesnt drop aggro - unless you use it to reset the fight.
Last edited by Elrantiri; Jun 20 2012 at 10:50 AM.
Why not? The Burg itself is not nerfed at all ... one Burglar doesn't lose any effectiveness of its own, if stacking of Burg Debuffs was diallowed. I don't see why this shouldn't be fixed. Burg stacking has made many fights ridiculously easy in the past (Thorog in a matter if Seconds anyone?) and is always prone to allow to circumvent certain fight mechanics - see Acid T2 CM or Fire and Frost T2 CM, those fights were not designed to be played like this; you just break the whole design of the fight by stacking burgs.
What would be the problem with disallowing stacking of Burg Debuffs? No other class (Captains, LMs ...) can stack their debuffs on top of each other. Disallowing the stacking of Burg Debuffs wouldn't break anything.
Originally Posted by hall9003
You are jealous of burgs because they are viable in a couple aspects of an end game raid?
The main issue is not that they became viable ... the issue is that stacking Burglars is the ONLY viable tactic F&F T2 CM - you simply can't do it without stacking Burgs. The next issue is that you just break the game mechanic in certain fights by stacking Burgs - I think this alone warrants at least looking into the debuff stacking mechanic of burgs and 'adjusting' it for the better of the game.
Originally Posted by hall9003
Don't target one specific class (burg) because you feel something is unbalanced.
It's not only imbalanced, it's game breaking. That's quite a difference
Originally Posted by hall9003
Why not suggest that all PVP gear be only useable in the moors?
I don't mind disallowing all PVP gear outside of the moors, but as for the Burgs PVP Set, it's just imbalanced. Burgs have never meant to be a Tier 1 DPS class and now all of a sudden they are right there with Hunters, Lorebreakers and Champions. The Set Bonus is just silly overpowered - no other class can even come close to 30% devastate chance. This needs to be fixed.
Because all of the examples you are giving are fights you can actually do with other classes. You dont need all RKs to do Turtle, you dont need 5 champs to do Forges. So far NOONE has done Fire + Ice Challenge with less than 3 burglars. Burglars are not only viable for this fight, they're required.
So one specific instance (t2 + challenge) of an end game raid warrants changes to the burglar class because to this point it has only been done with no less than 3 out of 12 slots occupied by burglars?
that's very specific.
yep -- let's get the devs right on that because they must have nothing better to work on.
EDIT: Minstrel are not viable raid DPS, so why compare with them? I dont compare my hunters mitigations to a guardian either.
Hobbit flop doesnt drop aggro - unless you use it to reset the fight.[/QUOTE]
I thought we were talking about aggro here? Mini's generate aggro even if they're not DPSing. Healing generates aggro. and before you say that the group must really suck for a mini to get aggro, that's not really the point now is it. there is no reason a burg should get aggro either if they are including provoke in their rotation and the tanks are doing their job.
but back to the original point -- HiPS allows the burg to drop aggro so we should ban HiPS. Isn't that what play dead does? It's not like HiPS is the only class skill that drops aggro.
So one specific instance (t2 + challenge) of an end game raid warrants changes to the burglar class because to this point it has only been done with no less than 3 out of 12 slots occupied by burglars?
that's very specific.
yep -- let's get the devs right on that because they must have nothing better to work on.
It's not that specific at all. I works in several other places, e.g. back in the days of Helegrod Thorog (a 24 person raid) could be killed before his first fly-up (which was a crucial part of the intended game mechanic) by stacking nothing but burgs (correct 24 of 24 spots in the raid were filled with burgs; not even a single healer - how is this balanced?). In Acid T2 the whole Challenge mechanic is made obsolete by stacking Burgs. And the there is F&F on top of them all - not only does burg stacking make things ridiculously easier, it's THE ONLY way to beat this fight. If you don't see how this is wrong, than you are out of your mind.
So one specific instance (t2 + challenge) of an end game raid warrants changes to the burglar class because to this point it has only been done with no less than 3 out of 12 slots occupied by burglars?
that's very specific.
yep -- let's get the devs right on that because they must have nothing better to work on.
It's not only one instance, Burglar Stacking also ruins the Acid bossfight and Thorog as Vodomir says. The reason I point out Fire + Ice the most is that Burglar Stacking seems to be the only way of completing that challenge after over 6 months and a nerf to the fight.
Originally Posted by hall9003
I thought we were talking about aggro here? Mini's generate aggro even if they're not DPSing. Healing generates aggro. and before you say that the group must really suck for a mini to get aggro, that's not really the point now is it. there is no reason a burg should get aggro either if they are including provoke in their rotation and the tanks are doing their job.
but back to the original point -- HiPS allows the burg to drop aggro so we should ban HiPS. Isn't that what play dead does? It's not like HiPS is the only class skill that drops aggro.
my bad on the hobbit flop. good call.
We're talking about the combination of insane DPS and overpowered aggro "management" tools. Burglars dont even need to use Provoke even once if the tank is good, just HiPS whenever you get aggro, press Ready and Able and keep on DPS. If you somehow manage to catch aggro twice, HiPS again. As bossfights with Burglar Stacking only takes ~2 minutes, you wont need to HiPS more than twice.
I thought we were talking about aggro here? Mini's generate aggro even if they're not DPSing. Healing generates aggro. and before you say that the group must really suck for a mini to get aggro, that's not really the point now is it. there is no reason a burg should get aggro either if they are including provoke in their rotation and the tanks are doing their job.
but back to the original point -- HiPS allows the burg to drop aggro so we should ban HiPS. Isn't that what play dead does? It's not like HiPS is the only class skill that drops aggro.
my bad on the hobbit flop. good call.
It's not about HiPS at all. It's about imbalanced DPS (moors set) and the game breaking stacking of Burg Debuffs. HiPS itself still has its issues as we've seen it being abused to exploit certain fights (e.g. Durin's Bane in OD) over and over again. So disallowing HiPS from being used in a raid setting might not be the worst idea, or just fix it so it doesn't mess with scripted game mechanics.
Don't change the set please i just started grinding all of these commendations to get 5 pieces of the burg set, almost at 3 now I will cry when they change the set as it took me hours of boring PvMP already.
Don't change the set please i just started grinding all of these commendations to get 5 pieces of the burg set, almost at 3 now I will cry when they change the set as it took me hours of boring PvMP already.
Yeah, nothing better than farming comms in lame PvMP to get a stronger PvE toon ^^
I am totally against banning class specific skills from raids (or anything for that matter). As a burglar I can use HiPS when fighting orcs that are inside some random keep in the landscape, why can I not use HiPS against orcs that just happen to be inside BG or any other raid place?
instances need to be developed to allow for class skills and various group/raid makeups. if any class has to pay his way into a raid because the raid is game breakingly easier with 5 hunters or with 5 champs, then the devs are listening to the wrong people and addressing the wrong issues.
if any class is so marginalized to be highly undesirable then the instance is at fault, not the class.
if any instance is "only" doable by having 3 or more of something then the instance is at fault, not the class.
I am totally against banning class specific skills from raids (or anything for that matter). As a burglar I can use HiPS when fighting orcs that are inside some random keep in the landscape, why can I not use HiPS against orcs that just happen to be inside BG or any other raid place?
I'd rather just see HiPS not completely reset aggro, instead give it the same functionality as Hobbit flop. I have just seen Turbine ban HiPS from Draigochs Lair, making it a choice I know Turbine can implement.
Originally Posted by hall9003
instances need to be developed to allow for class skills and various group/raid makeups. if any class has to pay his way into a raid because the raid is game breakingly easier with 5 hunters or with 5 champs, then the devs are listening to the wrong people and addressing the wrong issues.
if any class is so marginalized to be highly undesirable then the instance is at fault, not the class.
if any instance is "only" doable by having 3 or more of something then the instance is at fault, not the class.
Lets use that logic:
Before U6 Fire and Frost was impossible to do as specified in one of the other threads in the Instances forum, the DPS requirement was simply too large.
Lets say Heartseeker did 500,000 damage so you'd need 4 hunters to kill the Fire and Ice bosses right away, making that the only way of doing this Challenge. Because you'd need 4 hunters to do this, the instance is at fault.
It is not one class that is marginalized, it is one class, the Burglar, that is so much better than the alternatives.
The main issue is not that they became viable ... the issue is that stacking Burglars is the ONLY viable tactic F&F T2 CM - you simply can't do it without stacking Burgs. The next issue is that you just break the game mechanic in certain fights by stacking Burgs - I think this alone warrants at least looking into the debuff stacking mechanic of burgs and 'adjusting' it for the better of the game.
I'm not sure I follow your logic. It seems to go like this:
Assumption: Raid is too hard to beat
Fact: Groups with burglars can beat it
Conclusion: Burglars are overpowered and should be nerfed
Two alternate conclusions occur to me:
Conclusion: Raid is too hard and should be further nerfed
Conclusion: There's another strategy that will work, but nobody has figured it out yet because once one strategy is shown to work, there's no immediate need to develop another strategy
I am totally against banning class specific skills from raids (or anything for that matter). As a burglar I can use HiPS when fighting orcs that are inside some random keep in the landscape, why can I not use HiPS against orcs that just happen to be inside BG or any other raid place?
That's why I prefer the "or fix it so it doesn't mess with scripted game mechanics part. And I think you miss the whole point of this thread. The point is not the demand to nerf HiPS.
Originally Posted by hall9003
instances need to be developed to allow for class skills and various group/raid makeups. if any class has to pay his way into a raid because the raid is game breakingly easier with 5 hunters or with 5 champs, then the devs are listening to the wrong people and addressing the wrong issues.
I don't see any raid being game breakingly easy with 5 Champs, 5 Hunts or whatever class besides the Burgs. But we all have now seen several encounters being game breakingly easy in a literal way (as the intended game mechanic is actually broken/circumvented) by stackig Burgs. Disallowing Burg Debuffs to stack will not harm you (as a Burg) in any specific way. Neither your DPS nor your skills are nerfed. And other classes (like the Captain and the LM) also have to live with not being able to apply the same debuff by mutliple toons.
Originally Posted by hall9003
if any class is so marginalized to be highly undesirable then the instance is at fault, not the class.
No one is complaining that any class is marginalized. The point is that certain aspects of the Burg Class break/circumvent intended fight mechanics and this needs to be looked at. And no one went to do F&F T2 CM with stacking burgs because other classes are undesirable in there - the point is that it can just not be done without stacking burgs.
Originally Posted by hall9003
if any instance is "only" doable by having 3 or more of something then the instance is at fault, not the class.
Of course it's the instances fault in the first place, as the fight should be tuned down to be manageable without the need to stack burgs, but that still doesn't mean that burg stacking shouldn't be looked at. As other fights, that work perfectly fine without burg stacking (e.g. Acid T2 CM or the Thorog thingy) can still be broken with burg stacking.
I'm not sure I follow your logic. It seems to go like this:
Assumption: Raid is too hard to beat
Fact: Groups with burglars can beat it
Conclusion: Burglars are overpowered and should be nerfed
Two alternate conclusions occur to me:
Conclusion: Raid is too hard and should be further nerfed
Conclusion: There's another strategy that will work, but nobody has figured it out yet because once one strategy is shown to work, there's no immediate need to develop another strategy
Why would the two alternative conclusions rule out the first one? I know there is another strategy, but it is still out of reach because the DPS requirements are still insane and it takes longer time (bigger risc of someone messing up and fewer tries per night). Burglar Stacking ruins the incentive of doing the fight correctly.
There are 2 ways of reducing rage on the two giant in Fire + Ice, and one of them is completely irrelevant when stacking Burglars.
Burglar Stacking is one of two strategies of doing Acid T2HM, and by using Burglar Stacking you avoid 90% of the bossfight mechanic, basically ruining the fight.
Lets use that logic:
Before U6 Fire and Frost was impossible to do as specified in one of the other threads in the Instances forum, the DPS requirement was simply too large.
Lets say Heartseeker did 500,000 damage so you'd need 4 hunters to kill the Fire and Ice bosses right away, making that the only way of doing this Challenge. Because you'd need 4 hunters to do this, the instance is at fault.
It is not one class that is marginalized, it is one class, the Burglar, that is so much better than the alternatives.
The point was that in some instances some classes are not as useful as other classes. Roots is better with ranged dps, foundry can be run with all champs, etc. there are a lot of examples. the problem is that the instance mechanics allow for one particular class to excel while other classes are marginalized. Why run RoF with a burg when you can add a champ or a hunter and make the instance easier?
my burglar class is the same in all instances he joins. he's just not as useful in RoF as ranged DPS is. yet he's "required" for ToO? the burglar is the same in both cases, yet his value is very different.
and your point about U6 fire and frost IMO actually supports my position more than it does yours. -- seems obvious to me that the problem lies with the instance itself not with the burglar. nerfing the burglar won't help anyone else finish the content. in order to make the instance reasonable for balanced groups the instance needs to be fixed.
if they changed the burglar the way you suggest, no group at all would be able to finish it in t2 challenge.
seems logical to me that they need to fix the instance itself.
i'm not suggesting that stacking 24 burglars isn't ridiculous. stacking 12 RKs and taking down the turtle in 2 minutes is equally ridiculous. as is running foundry with 5 champs and a captain. ok maybe not as ridiculous, but still ridiculous.
i'm suggesting that the game mechanics should be looked at first before altering one specific class.
The point was that in some instances some classes are not as useful as other classes. Roots is better with ranged dps, foundry can be run with all champs, etc. there are a lot of examples. the problem is that the instance mechanics allow for one particular class to excel while other classes are marginalized. Why run RoF with a burg when you can add a champ or a hunter and make the instance easier?
my burglar class is the same in all instances he joins. he's just not as useful in RoF as ranged DPS is. yet he's "required" for ToO? the burglar is the same in both cases, yet his value is very different.
and your point about U6 fire and frost IMO actually supports my position more than it does yours. -- seems obvious to me that the problem lies with the instance itself not with the burglar. nerfing the burglar won't help anyone else finish the content. in order to make the instance reasonable for balanced groups the instance needs to be fixed.
if they changed the burglar the way you suggest, no group at all would be able to finish it in t2 challenge.
seems logical to me that they need to fix the instance itself.
i'm not suggesting that stacking 24 burglars isn't ridiculous. stacking 12 RKs and taking down the turtle in 2 minutes is equally ridiculous. as is running foundry with 5 champs and a captain. ok maybe not as ridiculous, but still ridiculous.
i'm suggesting that the game mechanics should be looked at first before altering one specific class.
The actual fight, as it is supposed to be completed, is still impossible to complete as far as I know.
EDIT: Furthermore, the main difference between Burglar Stacking and stacking other classes is that the fight does not change when stacking other classes, it is just done somewhat faster. By stacking Burglars you literally change the fight, you skip fight mechanics.
Last edited by Elrantiri; Jun 20 2012 at 12:14 PM.
Conclusion: Raid is too hard and should be further nerfed
That specific encounter is obviously to hard to be beaten the intended way, no doubt about that. But the encounter still shows that the Burg class is overpowered/broken, as the encounter can still be beaten by just stacking Burgs. Notice that even with Burgs you can't manage to beat it the intended way, you can only circumvent the intended mechanic - see how this is broken?
What is your argument to keep the stacking of Burg Debuffs as it is? What would you as a Burg lose, if Reveal Weakness and the Burglar's Tricks coudln't be stacked?
yet he's "required" for ToO? the burglar is the same in both cases, yet his value is very different.
You realize that you are not actuall "required"to complete the fight the intended way. You are only needed to break the fight and that's due to a game mechanic that has been broken from the start - stacking burglar debuffs
Originally Posted by hall9003
if they changed the burglar the way you suggest, no group at all would be able to finish it in t2 challenge.
That's what one would call balance.
Originally Posted by hall9003
seems logical to me that they need to fix the instance itself.
Signed on that, but Burg Stacking still needs to be looked at, as it's broken on its own.
Originally Posted by hall9003
i'm not suggesting that stacking 24 burglars isn't ridiculous. stacking 12 RKs and taking down the turtle in 2 minutes is equally ridiculous. as is running foundry with 5 champs and a captain. ok maybe not as ridiculous, but still ridiculous.
There's quite a big difference between the scenarios. Thorog is a 24 man raid, whereas the turtle and the foundry are meant for 6 or 12 people, so Thorog should by default require more healing than the latter two. Still the Thorog Burg run is the only one getting along without any heal at all. Foundry has a Captain and 5 Champs with bubbles and lots of self healing skills, the RK Turtle Run obviously has healers, too.
Originally Posted by hall9003
i'm suggesting that the game mechanics should be looked at first before altering one specific class.
That's why I prefer the "or fix it so it doesn't mess with scripted game mechanics part. And I think you miss the whole point of this thread. The point is not the demand to nerf HiPS.
From OP:
2. Ban HiPS from ToO just like you did at Draigoch, or make the functionality like Hobbit flop so aggro is not reset unless fight is resetl.
So it kinda is about nerfing HiPS.
Yes, there is more to this thread and more suggested changes to the burglar class or burglar items. But to disregard one specific suggestion (ie. ban HiPS) as being a relevant topic of debate is inappropriate. should we not discuss changing the pvp set too? should we not discuss buff/debuff stacking?
the point of the thread *should* be to make content available to all classes and to not have one specific class so absurdly OP'd that it trivializes the content. does that sound about right? the answer to this apparently by nerfing the burglar class? sure, that would certainly accomplish something but is it really the best place to be looking?
my point is still that it's primarily the content first and foremost that allows the exploits. one suggestion is to make content so that it is not a dps race and the burg stacking will not be relevant. but i'm sure somebody will find some other way to exploit. how about the devs actually develop content that requires a balanced group in order to complete it rather than giving us boring dps races.
nerfing burgs does not give you interesting and balanced content -- which at the end of the day isn't that what we all want?
I don't see any raid being game breakingly easy with 5 Champs, 5 Hunts or whatever class besides the Burgs. But we all have now seen several encounters being game breakingly easy in a literal way (as the intended game mechanic is actually broken/circumvented) by stackig Burgs. Disallowing Burg Debuffs to stack will not harm you (as a Burg) in any specific way. Neither your DPS nor your skills are nerfed. And other classes (like the Captain and the LM) also have to live with not being able to apply the same debuff by mutliple toons.
How does nerfing one or more my skills *not* make my burglar less valuable to a raid and therefore harmful to me as a burg?
Without stacking buffs, there is less reason to have multiple burgs in the raid. sure you can compare us to captains or LMs that don't stack, but that still does not mean that my value is *not* diminished with this change. allowing captains or LMs to stack would certainly *increase* their value.
Without HiPS as it works now, i can't go full dps as I have to watch aggro management or my tank needs to generate more aggro than they otherwise would (at the expense of doing something else, like dps or heals etc).
nerf the pvp set (which i do not have btw) reduces my dps and therefore my value to the raid.
every one of these changes reduces my value to a raid. it doesn't eliminate my value, but it diminishes my value.
Of course it's the instances fault in the first place, as the fight should be tuned down to be manageable without the need to stack burgs, but that still doesn't mean that burg stacking shouldn't be looked at. As other fights, that work perfectly fine without burg stacking (e.g. Acid T2 CM or the Thorog thingy) can still be broken with burg stacking.
And here we agree...the instances are at fault in the first place. And yes i agree that stacking is ridiculous and should be looked at, but not at the expense of developing good content. given infinite resources, sure -- look at everything. but we all know that resources are finite. i would rather have good (and new) content that is available to all groups from the start rather than have devs spending time fixing the "burg stack". make the content such that stacking burgs or any other class does not trivialize the content.
From OP:
2. Ban HiPS from ToO just like you did at Draigoch, or make the functionality like Hobbit flop so aggro is not reset unless fight is resetl.
So it kinda is about nerfing HiPS.
Yes, there is more to this thread and more suggested changes to the burglar class or burglar items. But to disregard one specific suggestion (ie. ban HiPS) as being a relevant topic of debate is inappropriate. should we not discuss changing the pvp set too? should we not discuss buff/debuff stacking?
the point of the thread *should* be to make content available to all classes and to not have one specific class so absurdly OP'd that it trivializes the content. does that sound about right? the answer to this apparently by nerfing the burglar class? sure, that would certainly accomplish something but is it really the best place to be looking?
my point is still that it's primarily the content first and foremost that allows the exploits. one suggestion is to make content so that it is not a dps race and the burg stacking will not be relevant. but i'm sure somebody will find some other way to exploit. how about the devs actually develop content that requires a balanced group in order to complete it rather than giving us boring dps races.
nerfing burgs does not give you interesting and balanced content -- which at the end of the day isn't that what we all want?
How does nerfing one or more my skills *not* make my burglar less valuable to a raid and therefore harmful to me as a burg?
Without stacking buffs, there is less reason to have multiple burgs in the raid. sure you can compare us to captains or LMs that don't stack, but that still does not mean that my value is *not* diminished with this change. allowing captains or LMs to stack would certainly *increase* their value.
Without HiPS as it works now, i can't go full dps as I have to watch aggro management or my tank needs to generate more aggro than they otherwise would (at the expense of doing something else, like dps or heals etc).
nerf the pvp set (which i do not have btw) reduces my dps and therefore my value to the raid.
every one of these changes reduces my value to a raid. it doesn't eliminate my value, but it diminishes my value.
And here we agree...the instances are at fault in the first place. And yes i agree that stacking is ridiculous and should be looked at, but not at the expense of developing good content. given infinite resources, sure -- look at everything. but we all know that resources are finite. i would rather have good (and new) content that is available to all groups from the start rather than have devs spending time fixing the "burg stack". make the content such that stacking burgs or any other class does not trivialize the content.
First of all the HiPS thing is only a suggestion. The reason my suggestions are based on the Burglar is because changes made to the class will apply to both current, previous and coming instances - as we saw with Draigoch, it's simply easier to made little changes (ban HiPS) than to change the mechanics - they still cant get the Draigoch mechanics right lol.
By making Burglar Stacking less desirable in general they'll be less desirable in raids too where it is actually an issue. Where else do you need to stack RW and CD?
Furthermore I find it fair that all DPS classes have to watch their aggro, this doesnt seem to be the case for Burglars in raids.
The PvP set is plain out of line compared to all other sets I know of, even the Captain Peservance 3-set bonus. There's no other set in the game that improves the class as much as that set does.
I dont see why DPS races should be ruled out as a game mechanic when it can be made fair by fixing the Burglar class. Burglars are not supposed to be Top Tier DPS, yet they are.
First of all the HiPS thing is only a suggestion. The reason my suggestions are based on the Burglar is because changes made to the class will apply to both current, previous and coming instances - as we saw with Draigoch, it's simply easier to made little changes (ban HiPS) than to change the mechanics - they still cant get the Draigoch mechanics right lol.
By making Burglar Stacking less desirable in general they'll be less desirable in raids too where it is actually an issue. Where else do you need to stack RW and CD?
Furthermore I find it fair that all DPS classes have to watch their aggro, this doesnt seem to be the case for Burglars in raids.
The PvP set is plain out of line compared to all other sets I know of, even the Captain Peservance 3-set bonus. There's no other set in the game that improves the class as much as that set does.
I dont see why DPS races should be ruled out as a game mechanic when it can be made fair by fixing the Burglar class. Burglars are not supposed to be Top Tier DPS, yet they are.
Draigoch is actually a good example of a raid where burglar stacking does not help. You could certainly run it with a pile of burgs, but they would be sitting around doing nothing for a large part of the instance making sure that all the CJs got off ok.
for burg stacking, the only skill that i find relevant to that discussion is the aim/buff/debuff stacking. that clearly requires multiple burglars and has the ability to break game mechanics. if making burglar stacking irrelevant is solved by removing the skills from stacking, fine. it *does* hurt the class by diminishing their value in a raid and does nothing to actually *improve* content. (note my point about not being forced to join a group you don't want to join) but it does bring the skill in line with other classes. i'll stop arguing that point right now.
i do not believe that the pvp set nor HiPs are issues that need addressing. if mind numbing grinding for a specific set of gear gets a burglar to T1 dps status, so what? it's not like every burglar out there has the ability or desire to get that set. somebody's gear needs to be considered the best gear. i actually think the cappy sets are more useful overall. 2.5min IC rez and 6s RC wearing 3 pieces of two sets? that turns the captain into a main healer in many cases where they probably shouldn't be. but i digress.
assuming burg stacking is no longer an issue by removing skill stacking, what incentive is left to take another burg over a hunter/champ/rk that in their own way add utility to a group if dps is similar? it then becomes a preference of ranged vs melee, heavy vs medium vs light, CJs vs RK utility.
for hips -- it is a skill that is intended to drop aggo. it is working as intended (aside from pets in the moors). just as other class skills work for their threat management. hunters that go all out dps may get aggro, then they need to use a skill to drop their threat. RKs probably have the worst of it now, as they can only drop perceived threat for a short period of time, then it jumps right back up again. champs can obviously dump threat. with good tanks all of these classes can go all out dps for a long period of time. if a burg goes all out dps in a raid (again, assume no more burg stacking), they should have a skill to drop/reduce threat. provoke doesn't drop/reduce threat. only HiPS does. what is wrong about a burg going all out dps and using their one skill (on a long CD no less, with a reset with a very long CD) to drop threat if they get aggro? not exactly game breaking and certainly will not cause burglar stacking.
Draigoch is actually a good example of a raid where burglar stacking does not help. You could certainly run it with a pile of burgs, but they would be sitting around doing nothing for a large part of the instance making sure that all the CJs got off ok.
True, but it is also another raid where a Burglar is pretty much required if you want get CJs somewhat reliably - not that I find that to be an issue, I think its fine that Burglars have at least one possible spot in the raid.
Originally Posted by hall9003
for burg stacking, the only skill that i find relevant to that discussion is the aim/buff/debuff stacking. that clearly requires multiple burglars and has the ability to break game mechanics. if making burglar stacking irrelevant is solved by removing the skills from stacking, fine. it *does* hurt the class by diminishing their value in a raid and does nothing to actually *improve* content. (note my point about not being forced to join a group you don't want to join) but it does bring the skill in line with other classes. i'll stop arguing that point right now.
It is indeed the debuff stacking that makes it a big problem to me. Unlike other classes, increasing the amount of Burglars increases the damage by more than just 100%/50%/33%/..., and that is only because the debuffs stack. That's why 5 Burglars on one target doesnt just about same damage than 5 Hunters (who I consider the main "competitor" in regards to single target DPS), but more like 50-100% more damage.
Originally Posted by hall9003
i do not believe that the pvp set nor HiPs are issues that need addressing. if mind numbing grinding for a specific set of gear gets a burglar to T1 dps status, so what? it's not like every burglar out there has the ability or desire to get that set. somebody's gear needs to be considered the best gear. i actually think the cappy sets are more useful overall. 2.5min IC rez and 6s RC wearing 3 pieces of two sets? that turns the captain into a main healer in many cases where they probably shouldn't be. but i digress.
Yet no set of that magnitude is available to other true DPS classes (Primary role of Burglars is debuffing, they are a support class), as a hunter I cannot exceed what the Faron set gives me, and that bonus is worth much compared to the Unseen bonus. If there was a set that allowed Hunters to get the "+5% dev buff stack up to 20%" buff every time they used Swift Bow (also got 10s cd), 99% of endgame hunters would be using that.
Again, compared to the other DPS classes, being able to reset aggro twice in the bossfight is a huuuuge improvement to what the actual DPS classes can do. In comparison Hunters only got a -60%/-85% perceived threat buff that last for 10/20 seconds depending on traits. Our other way of decreasing aggro is laughable as the main aggro decrease is through the fact that our DPS is lowered.
Originally Posted by hall9003
assuming burg stacking is no longer an issue by removing skill stacking, what incentive is left to take another burg over a hunter/champ/rk that in their own way add utility to a group if dps is similar? it then becomes a preference of ranged vs melee, heavy vs medium vs light, CJs vs RK utility.
I dont see the problem here, it should be a preference of ranged vs melee, heavy vs medium vs light, CJs+debuffs vs RK utility. Just because CD doesnt stack with another CD, the second burglar can just apply Dust or Disable. RW can be used on another target if any.
Originally Posted by hall9003
for hips -- it is a skill that is intended to drop aggo. it is working as intended (aside from pets in the moors). just as other class skills work for their threat management. hunters that go all out dps may get aggro, then they need to use a skill to drop their threat. RKs probably have the worst of it now, as they can only drop perceived threat for a short period of time, then it jumps right back up again. champs can obviously dump threat. with good tanks all of these classes can go all out dps for a long period of time. if a burg goes all out dps in a raid (again, assume no more burg stacking), they should have a skill to drop/reduce threat. provoke doesn't drop/reduce threat. only HiPS does. what is wrong about a burg going all out dps and using their one skill (on a long CD no less, with a reset with a very long CD) to drop threat if they get aggro? not exactly game breaking and certainly will not cause burglar stacking.
That's the thing, HiPS is WAY, WAY beyond what actual DPS classes have.
Hunters got a perceived threat down, and they can change stance and use Quick Shot - imagine if Provoke didnt exist and Burglars had to swap to Gambler and use Subtle Stab to get the functionality of Provoke (I know Burglars cant really swap stance in-combat). That's how it is for a Hunter, and if you use a First Age the damage from Quick Shot is higher than the threat decrease you get from it, so you actually still build aggro, just slower.
Rune-keepers got a perceived threat down, afaik it's even worse than the hunter one - however, temporal -% perceived threat is useless in general, you're doing nothing but prolonging the problem.
Champs are a bit better off as they can dump 25% aggro on the tank once every minute or two.
burgs damage is too high because of the moors set, without it, it would be perfectly balanced.
That burgstacking helps in the raid is just a matter of bad fight mechanic design. It's only good in the f&f and acid wing (although it's really not needed there) because they trigger everything by timer and not by morale.
Burgs are melee dps, in a balanced raid you need 2 ranged dps, so you can't stack burgs. No need to nerf the most fun mechanic in the game, just make it useless in bossfights by adding the need of range, aoe, etc.
for vanish: it's a skill that makes the burg pretty unique and allows for good aggromanagement. Wardens -99% aggro is way more op than vanish since it effects the whole group :P
If they remove the stacking: they really really need to buff the yellow line to be very useful so that his debuffs stack with the red-traited burg, otherwise more than 1 burg won't be useful anymore, while more hunters are always useful (they take less damage because of their range). Would be a 3-hunter raid setup again... hurray ... not
Last edited by sdf-blarelius; Jun 20 2012 at 02:32 PM.
Blarelius, Blanadir, Dorilion, Lirania.
Kinship: Streiter der Freiheit - Raid: Legion der Freunde
I always hate to see one class asking to see another class nerfed. I mean come on would you like you class intentionally nerfed? If you really think about it????????????????????? NO! you wouldn't, don't, and never will!!!!!!!!!!! So why are you trying to get another class nerfed? If there is a problem with your class then come up with ideas to fix it, but don't ask to have another class nerfed to make your class better. Drives me crazy anytime i see this. Please think of constructive fixes and try and be positive. Everyone wants to be the best.
Yet no set of that magnitude is available to other true DPS classes (Primary role of Burglars is debuffing, they are a support class)
That's the thing, HiPS is WAY, WAY beyond what actual DPS classes have.
So you still want burgs to be nerfed because other classes are not as good at dumping aggro (other than warden/guardian)?
I already gave you the stacking skills argument. Do you really feel that the game has more to be gained by also eliminating the only threat drop skill that a supposed support class has AND removing their ability be a top dps class for single target melee fights if the burg has the time/ability to grind out 5 pieces of a moors set of armour?
That seems a bit selfish. What do YOU get out of the burg losing aggro drop on HiPS and losing a level of dps? I can see why PVP arguments are made to nerf classes, but why on earth would another PVE class intentionally want to nerf another PVE class for PVE content??
Let's just forget making other classes useful for something, let's keep everyone in their own little areas and not let them out. Ever.
Ok, so the PVP armour gets adjusted and burgs are now T2 dps. Still feel HiPS needs to be nerfed?
and NO, i don't feel the PVP set needs adjusting -- I'm just curious where you think the burg needs to be as a class so that your hunter looks better.
So you still want burgs to be nerfed because other classes are not as good at dumping aggro (other than warden/guardian)?
I already gave you the stacking skills argument. Do you really feel that the game has more to be gained by also eliminating the only threat drop skill that a supposed support class has AND removing their ability be a top dps class for single target melee fights if the burg has the time/ability to grind out 5 pieces of a moors set of armour?
That seems a bit selfish. What do YOU get out of the burg losing aggro drop on HiPS and losing a level of dps? I can see why PVP arguments are made to nerf classes, but why on earth would another PVE class intentionally want to nerf another PVE class for PVE content??
Let's just forget making other classes useful for something, let's keep everyone in their own little areas and not let them out. Ever.
Ok, so the PVP armour gets adjusted and burgs are now T2 dps. Still feel HiPS needs to be nerfed?
and NO, i don't feel the PVP set needs adjusting -- I'm just curious where you think the burg needs to be as a class so that your hunter looks better.
Seriously, what do you have against burgs anyway?
No, I dont really want HiPS nerfed unless as an alternative to remove stacking of debuffs.
The reason I continued talking about HiPS was because you wrote
for hips -- it is a skill that is intended to drop aggo. it is working as intended (aside from pets in the moors). just as other class skills work for their threat management. hunters that go all out dps may get aggro, then they need to use a skill to drop their threat. RKs probably have the worst of it now, as they can only drop perceived threat for a short period of time, then it jumps right back up again. champs can obviously dump threat. with good tanks all of these classes can go all out dps for a long period of time.
To which I add that HiPS is completely unlike what other DPS classes have - much stronger. Especially the Hunter part marked in bold is off, Hunters dont have a skill that actually drops their threat, it only gives lower perceived threat for a moment.
I didnt say anything about that BOTH HiPS and debuff stacking should be nerfed, but I really do think one of them should be nerfed.
I do think the PvP set has to be nerfed no matter what, it is much, much stronger than any set available to RKs, Hunters and Champions and it dramatically increases the DPS of the Burglar.
No, I dont really want HiPS nerfed unless as an alternative to remove stacking of debuffs.
The reason I continued talking about HiPS was because you wrote
To which I add that HiPS is completely unlike what other DPS classes have - much stronger. Especially the Hunter part marked in bold is off, Hunters dont have a skill that actually drops their threat, it only gives lower perceived threat for a moment.
I didnt say anything about that BOTH HiPS and debuff stacking should be nerfed, but I really do think one of them should be nerfed.
I do think the PvP set has to be nerfed no matter what, it is much, much stronger than any set available to RKs, Hunters and Champions and it dramatically increases the DPS of the Burglar.
I don't play a high level hunter, so my knowledge is more limited in that regard. I know they can reduce their threat if they chose to.
But my point is still valid -- you want the burglar nerfed because your class doesn't have as good of a skill or PVP set. That's just plain selfish.
Your point was never valid. I want the Burglar nerfed because it has stronger skills and PvP set than either Hunters, Champions and Rune-keeper despite not being a top tier DPS class. The alternative would be to boost the three other classes, however, as the Burglar is already at the point where bossfights are being broken, boosting the other classes does not seem logical.
It's not a matter of the Hunter being below the other DPS classes, it's a matter of the Burglar being above the other DPS classes despite being a debuffer as primary role, not DPS.
Last edited by Elrantiri; Jun 20 2012 at 04:13 PM.
I am totally against banning class specific skills from raids (or anything for that matter). As a burglar I can use HiPS when fighting orcs that are inside some random keep in the landscape, why can I not use HiPS against orcs that just happen to be inside BG or any other raid place?
instances need to be developed to allow for class skills and various group/raid makeups. if any class has to pay his way into a raid because the raid is game breakingly easier with 5 hunters or with 5 champs, then the devs are listening to the wrong people and addressing the wrong issues.
if any class is so marginalized to be highly undesirable then the instance is at fault, not the class.
if any instance is "only" doable by having 3 or more of something then the instance is at fault, not the class.
As much as it is well said, it doesn't apply to this case. It's not one class being marginalized, it's Hunters, Champions AND Rune-keepers being marginalized by Burglars.
Furthermore, they've changed Draigoch so you cannot fly through it like they did in that video.
I really don't see the viability of class-stacking as an issue, at all. Nobody really blinks if there are three hunters or three champs or three healers (even 3 minstrels as opposed to 2 minstrels and a runekeeper) or even on occasion three tanks or three captains (though tank/capt trios are significantly less likely in a level-cap raid situation, practically zero in t2 situations), why should three burglars be any different? Yes, we're talking in some cases about more than 3 here, but most groups are either not going to have that many burglars, or not use all their locks at once if they do (quite aside from wanting to get other players/characters through the fight), so although it does occasionally lead to the cirumvention of elements of the fight design, this is in most cases (outside of fire/frost, where obvioulsy everyone agrees that the numbers are just out-of-whack) a novelty. I don't see that rising to the sky-is-falling territory that some seem to. Obviously when a novelty becomes the only optimal strategy, that's something that should cause some pause, but let's not knee-jerk here and say that the problem is with the design of a class rather than the design of the content/system.
There are some problems with the fight design in Orthanc, but as I have said elsewhere, it is a problem not with the stacking of burglar skills but the wild over-inflation of dps in general (and perhaps the removal of stat caps). The solution is not to remove burglar mark/trick stacking, a normally unique and fun aspect of the class, but to reduce dps across the board to be more in line with level progression, and for burgs more than other classes. It is possible though, as this is the first expansion without stat caps, that this is just part of the growing pains of introducing a new system, and that future content will adjust naturally to the change. I have no issue with your third suggestion, the alteration or even barring of pvp sets for use in pve as part of this solution, though, and the fourth point is also something that needs to be looked into, especially if they don't adjust dps into a sensical line of progression. I think your first two suggestions are completely off point though. The problem is not with the class, but the mechanics of the fight and combat in general.
Last edited by tomiathon; Jun 20 2012 at 05:02 PM.
I really don't see the viability of class-stacking as an issue, at all. Nobody really blinks if there are three hunters or three champs or three healers (even 3 minstrels as opposed to 2 minstrels and a runekeeper) or even on occasion three tanks or three captains (though tank/capt trios are significantly less likely in a level-cap raid situation, practically zero in t2 situations), why should three burglars be any different? Yes, we're talking in some cases about more than 3 here, but most groups are either not going to have that many burglars, or not use all their locks at once if they do (quite aside from wanting to get other players/characters through the fight), so although it does occasionally lead to the cirumvention of elements of the fight design, this is in most cases (outside of fire/frost, where obvioulsy everyone agrees that the numbers are just out-of-whack) a novelty. I don't see that rising to the sky-is-falling territory that some seem to.
The reason noone blinks when three hunter or champs are stacked is because it is not as advantageous as bringing 3 or more burglars Acid+Fire and Frost are. A Foundry with 1 Captain and 5 Champs will go fast, but you will still need to kill all mobs, pull levers and handle stuns/knockbacks. A Foundry with 1 Captain and 4-5 Burgs, 4-5 Hunters or 4-5 RKs will go fast too, though Champs have an advantage through heavy armor and AoE.
By stacking Burglars, you change the fight.
You avoid having to kill Adds and jump in Acid water at Acid Boss, and what would most likely be a 5-10 minute bossfight in Fire and Frost challenge is changed to a 2½ minute fight where several of the game mechanics are cut out.
No other class can do this.
Originally Posted by tomiathon
There are some problems with the fight design in Orthanc, but as I have said elsewhere, it is a problem not with the stacking of burglar skills but the wild over-inflation of dps in general (and perhaps the removal of stat caps). The solution is not to remove burglar mark/trick stacking, a normally unique and fun aspect of the class, but to reduce dps across the board to be more in line with level progression, and for burgs more than other classes. It is possible though, as this is the first expansion without stat caps, that this is just part of the growing pains of introducing a new system, and that future content will adjust naturally to the change. I have no issue with your third suggestion, the alteration or even barring of pvp sets for use in pve as part of this solution, though, and the fourth point is also something that needs to be looked into, especially if they don't adjust dps into a sensical line of progression. I think your first two suggestions are completely off point though. The problem is not with the class, but the mechanics of the fight and combat in general.
Reducing the DPS across the board will make the fights harder. If you then make the fights easier to comply with the lower DPS, Burglars will once again be stacked, the only thing changing is the numbers.
By reducing the Burglars damage you're nerfing them even more than I'd do.
I am not saying Burgs need a nerf and for sure a reduction to all DPS is bad. The problem is (1) balancing all classes and (2) in trying to create a new challenge, the development team went overboard in some of the mechanics.
Reducing the DPS across the board will make the fights harder. If you then make the fights easier to comply with the lower DPS, Burglars will once again be stacked, the only thing changing is the numbers.
By reducing the Burglars damage you're nerfing them even more than I'd do.
to the latter, perhaps. I don't think its an unwarranted nerf, or needs to be a major one comparative to the overall dps nerf that is needed (perhaps just on the QK stance). burglars have seen a bigger relative increase in dps than other classes, so I don't think it is inappropriate that they would take a slightly bigger nerf. but things are clearly out of line. the increase in dps we have seen with a mere 10 level increase to cap is nonsensical. to the point that we've seen the devs add things like -threat to dps stances for burglars and hunters which make no logical sense (I'm hurting you more so I'm threatening you less!" umm, no?).
would fights be harder? maybe; the numbers in the fight would have to change as well, the fights themselves would have to change in some respects. boss morale, timers, thresholds, damage, etc., in addition to player dps. but it need not mean a drastic change in a fight. increasing damage 10% is going to be advantageous regardless of how much damage is being done, but if that base damage is reduced, that bonus is smaller, the advantages to stacking more 10% is smaller, especially when the class bringing those extra 10%s is reduced slightly more than the others. the numbers can be adjusted to work, so that burg stacking is possible, but not the only optimal strategy, so that it remains a novelty. again, perhaps this is all just a symptom of a new system that will work itself out. and perhaps your 4th (and 3rd) suggestion is sufficient in itself. but i can't shake the belief that the outsized increases in dps are the root of the problem.
Last edited by tomiathon; Jun 20 2012 at 05:55 PM.
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I will cry when they change the set as it took me hours of boring PvMP already.
Multiboxing 6 Weavers in the Ettenmoors!
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