Thread: I just HAVE to know..

This is my first MMO, and at first, I was naïve enough to think that all female toons were IRL females. I was very pleasantly surprised.

But, honestly, I think people here are not too shocked when they hear me talking and 'confirm' I am a girl. I think my typing and the things I say are sometimes very 'girly'. Regardless, there's no lack of women in LOTRO; I'd say at least my server is very balanced and I've actually joined fellowships with ladies only.

well when I was growing up the 2600 had just came out and once a week our whole family, and I mean the whole family, aunts uncles cousins even grandma and grandpa, would get together eat a good meal, watch Dr Who, then play video games until the wee hours, and we all took turns playing, never occurred to any of us that video games should be a "guy thing"

since the birth of online games I have got the "whoa you a girl!" reaction from time to time mostly from very young boys, and usually when I am playing fps's

I guess I have got lucky because I have never got that reaction while playing LOTRO

This thread has me laughing so hard.

I've gotten a couple lewd instances for being female, but what I've also gotten is a *lot* of male friends over the years who were ready to jump to my defense (if needed) if I ever got the creepy-stalker-guy thing going on. Thankfully that never happened. But I've never been treated especially different for being female in any of my kinships I've been in over the years. Helps that I wasn't ever the only one, perhaps.

In the end, I've had really no crippling experiences in LOTRO with being a female player, nor that many advantages. A couple free things from random strangers over my five years of playing, and some *hilarious* reactions from some instances when I use voice chat with strangers (especially since my nickname is 'Larry' on Elendilmir...).

Females in LOTRO are really no phenomenon.

Originally Posted by enginekid

i come across females all the time in lotro. always seem to be a female in groups i join. many use a microphone and you can hear their voice. it's really nice too because the female voice sounds better to a guy

Not if the male voice is Aussie/Kiwi/British! *melts*

Originally Posted by Nyrion

While it certainly does not justify the comments made to her, I have heard reports that she posted multiple links to her videos on 4chan, of all places. Which is essentially like kicking the hornets nest.

Do you have links? Because all I found regarding that matter was the attacks on her possibly originating on 4chan, and it doesn't need the video's author to post a link. But even if she did, that does in no way excuse the attacks that happened. That's like saying that a woman deserves catcalling after her when she walks down the road in a skirt because she's walking down the road in a skirt.

I also have certain issues with the way she has presented her arguments, as it seems to have become an us vs them thing rather than having gamers come together to better things for everyone.

Disagreement =/= condoning attacks. Critical discourse is, imho, awesome and to be welcomed, and you have as much of a right to your opinion as everyone else. I've found myself disagreeing with some of the things she said in this video or that, myself, if not on the issue of gaming, still not thinking she deserves attacking. But then I don't want to be a frothing-at-the-mouth pathetic excuse for a human being like those attackers were presenting as.

That said, we definitely have some way to go before gaming in itself can be considered gender-balanced.

Glad we agree on this.

Originally Posted by Scarletstarr

I'm female

Helloo, ladies.

FYI our kin leader is a woman. And in the 4 1/2 years I've been playing I've never seen or heard any of the apparent rampant misconduct of males towards females that is thrown about in MMO forums.

And the main reason, I guess, is that the majority of players that use voice chat would never put up with it here. We value our gender opposites too much for that.

Originally Posted by StarryP

Well, from an article I read in a Danish newspaper a couple of months ago the average computer gamer is 37 years old.

42% of the players are female and nearly a third are over 50 years old.

(for anyone interested http://jyllands-posten.dk/digitalt/c...cle4649397.ece)

So, gaming isn't a guys thing no more

(I'm pretty average; 38 yo and female)

If I remember correctly from another article, the statistics are somewhat different between Europe and the US. The European gamers are more evenly split between men and women.

In any case, interesting to see that *particular* newspaper get mentioned in a thread, as I only previously knew about it (and supported them) from printing a special set of editorial cartoons (whose topic is WAY out of bounds for this Forum, let alone this thread).

--W. H. Heydt

Old Used Programmer

Originally Posted by EllisIstarnie

Another female gamer here. LotRO has on the whole been welcoming in terms of gendered discourse for me (or rather, it's been a non-issue most of the time), while looking back at my stint of playing WoW is making me shudder. Logging on to a ton of lewd/rude messages after telling a handful of players for days on end was not a very auspicious start (I was new to game mechanics, and failed to report or block them) so I eventually left.

While LotRO may be an exception (and I'm so glad it is - Tolkien's world is so problematic with gender roles, I would have hated to find the same thing in game, but the community being more mature helps a lot), but the advice the OP got still is sound for a lot of other games if you want to play in peace. Just look at the recent case of Anita Sarkeesian who *le gasp* opened a kickstarter campaign to talk critically about tropes applying to female characters in video games. The torrent of abuse she got was absolutely horrifying. She has a media roundup on her site:

http://www.feministfrequency.com/201...-6967-backers/

There also are sites that outline what female gamers still have to put up with every day:

http://fatuglyorslutty.com/
http://www.notinthekitchenanymore.com/

In terms of harrassment it really doesn't matter to me what kind of comments they are, whether it's the "i wanna c ur [insert female anatomy of choice]" or "I hope you get [illness/violence]" or a guy stalking you through Bree while alternating kiss and slap emotes, or others. None of it is okay, full stop. And it needs discussion, because without raising awareness it's never going to go away. +rep for starting this thread.

those to sites reminded me why I don't play on consoles, is it me Or is it way worse on consoles than on the pc
even in the shooter games usually the worst I would hear was "your a girl? cool wish my mom/girlfriend/wife/ played" but it could be that fact I am usually playing with my husband and/or son

but I can't even play uno on the Xbox without someone demanding I turn my camera on

I do have a cute story where a random guy we were playing with decided to come to the defense of female gamers

my husband and I were playing l4d and like usual hubby would refer to me a sweetheart when we play like he dose in all things, you know "sweetheart behind you!" "sweetheart I am down!" things of that nature, when some guy comes in and after listening to this for a bit, says "dude just because she is female dose not give you the right to call her sweetheart, guys like you are the reason there aren't more female gamers!"

By this time my husband is laughing so hard he can't say anything, so I reply it's ok, he is my husband and he has not called me my name in 13 years, I don't think he even remembers it. in fact I have thought about changing my gamer tag to sweetheart, honey, or mom for a while now,

poor guy was so embarrassed, but he kept playing and he still will join our games whenever we are online, only now he calls me sweetheart as well

I'm female and I only have one male character. But thats only because I wanted to try a dwarf. But he wears a dress so I guess he's just a cross dresser or a female in disguise... :/ I think that most people assume I'm female though because I'm usually a female character. I've never been worried about the community shunning me because of my gender. I find it far more likely to be shunned because of my age. I'm only 21 so most people think I'm too young to really contribute to anything, or to know what I'm doing and talking about. I hate telling people my age because of all the stereotypes that come with it. But I'm proud to be a woman and I'm not afraid to say that I'm a girl that loves the Lord of the Rings. I always have and I always will.

If everyone would only play his own gender, we probably had a LOT of male chars.
However, in Lotro you can find many female players.
I would say half of the time my girlfriend and me join up with groups, there is at least one more woman on the TS.
In Lotro (at least in the EU) you will find many couples playing, I started the game because of my girlfriend even, sometimes we team up with another couple we know.
Of course in MMOs you can find mostly guys, but in SWG it also happened the other way around. Not just once it was the case I was the only male player in a group, those trips have been fun. On the other hand it's quite fun if you have a guild built of 20 male players and have female visitors for the first time. Overall I would say that we had about 20% female players usually.

There are always the rumors about female players getting bullied, but I can't confirm this so far. The groups I lead and joined in LotRO and SWG always welcomed female players. As a matter of fact the guys behave more if they have some nice company.
It's probably a question of the player age. The players in WoW are younger and less mature as in LotRO and SWG.

Yea. Girls can be as nerdy and geeky as boys. But who wants a girls that sits in front of the comp all the time?
Hard to get those ladies out in the sun and into fresh air. And gaming girls are often as immature as there male counterparts.

When conected to the MMO-mindmachine lines between genders seem to get blurry.

Originally Posted by TheStormKing

Helloo, ladies.

lmao

oh, and /reported

Originally Posted by techknowrat

those to sites reminded me why I don't play on consoles, is it me Or is it way worse on consoles than on the pc
even in the shooter games usually the worst I would hear was "your a girl? cool wish my mom/girlfriend/wife/ played" but it could be that fact I am usually playing with my husband and/or son

but I can't even play uno on the Xbox without someone demanding I turn my camera on

I do have a cute story where a random guy we were playing with decided to come to the defense of female gamers

my husband and I were playing l4d and like usual hubby would refer to me a sweetheart when we play like he dose in all things, you know "sweetheart behind you!" "sweetheart I am down!" things of that nature, when some guy comes in and after listening to this for a bit, says "dude just because she is female dose not give you the right to call her sweetheart, guys like you are the reason there aren't more female gamers!"

By this time my husband is laughing so hard he can't say anything, so I reply it's ok, he is my husband and he has not called me my name in 13 years, I don't think he even remembers it. in fact I have thought about changing my gamer tag to sweetheart, honey, or mom for a while now,

poor guy was so embarrassed, but he kept playing and he still will join our games whenever we are online, only now he calls me sweetheart as well

this is perfect, love it!



the person who got me into grouping in this game was female, the only raid leader I would join unconditionally in the moors is female, the best times I have in game is playing with my lady.
She is the sociable one, the one who gets the others to join, and her chatter keeps them (and me) interested and having fun.

Without her, and I just stand around in-game doing nothing and browsing the forums <ahem>.

There is a problem with sexism bordering on misogyny in gaming as a whole, but this obviously varies hugely by game and genre. At one end of the spectrum - the nasty side - are PvP first-person-shooter games. LOTRO is pretty much all the way to the other side of the spectrum. Like most kins, mine has a healthy proportion of women and the kin and the game are much the better for this.

No doubt pockets of testosterone-driven macho idiocy are there to be found - notably in Ettenmoors - but I very much doubt any female LOTRO player is going to experience more such problems in-game than they do in other walks of life. This is not to belittle the effect of even rare unpleasantness by the way, and on some issues - such as a personal beef of mine, the casual use of '&&&&-talk' in PvMP - the LOTRO community is still as backwards as any. But I would certainly say that deliberately keeping your gender a secret is unnecessary.

Sigh. The forums edited a word above. I'm sure you can figure out what 4-letter word beginning with 'r' I am referring to.

Originally Posted by skadoink

There was this big news report recently which was talking about the really obscene sexist and agressive remarks made to female gamers - I was tempted to email the journalist and tell him he didn't do his research. Sure there are some idiots out there, but both my wife and I have never had any negative reaction due to her being female.

Um, wow. Please, do *your* research next time, because I'm pretty sure just because your wife has been lucky enough not to encounter some of the truly terrible people in gaming culture doesn't mean harassment doesn't exist or that it's just a "few bad apples". Anita Sarkeesian, for one, would beg to differ.

Back to the topic of this thread, which is the LOTRO community specifically, I have only experienced harassment a few times in about five years of playing this game, which is one of the reasons why I'm still here after all this time. It's not a safe space, by any means, but I also don't usually have to be too concerned about dudebros inappropriately emoting at me, or thinking if they give me something I'll go on a date with them. It's better than what many of my friends have experienced in many other games, from WoW to co-op shooters.

Sexism has been there all time, but with gender balance getting more equal and casual gamer portion growing a lot faster that the overall gamer portion, it gets diminished.

It used to be more agressive in the 90ties, if one check early Ultima Online stories about "R-word in cyberspace", that was a time when it was quite possible to get harassed if you admit you are a woman in RL. Its less likely to happen now, but its not gone anywhere.

Before coming to LotRO, i was playing a lot in the asian Free MMO FlyFF, and sometimes still log in there. It has very skimpy outfits for female magic user characters. It has a death pose as the character is lying down on his/her back, spread out. It also has an emote of doing pushups. It has open world PvP. Now add those factors together... not a pretty image... Im a guy, 42, but i had my share of female chars there, so i had enough of chances to do my share of reporting for 'obscene harassment'.

Its hapening less in PvE enviroments, where players cooperate, not compete directly against each other, so it could be more happening into PvP games, like FPS the http://www.notinthekitchenanymore.com/ owner plays. After all, PvP tends to raise adrenaline rush and as a collateral also bring out worst there is...

*sittingdownandstuffingapipe*

Well... me aint having problems with gamergirls. technology is advanced enough, isnt it? WLAN is the magic here! nowadays girls and women can take their gamer-laptop to the kitchen or the laundryroom and play while the stew is bubbling and the tumbler goes round.... ;D

*lightingthepipe*

*preparingguardianstanceforinc omingbashing*

sorry folks, couldnt resist

Originally Posted by TheStormKing

Helloo, ladies.

I really hope this person wasn't reported for this comment, as it made me laugh very much as I read through this thread! The pink font really added to it. Haha! Totally inappropriate but very short and with perfect timing, and from thus the hilarity.

Anyway, as to harassment due to being female, yes I've definitely experienced that. Not to the extent of having violence wished upon me (to my face, at least) but the over-chumminess and following around and patronisation that sometimes happens. I tend to carry on and ignore it, having fun alongside my fellow players until the shine dwindles and they treat me like a just some other fun person to party up with. I do put an immediate halt to anyone trying to call me "sweetheart" or "darling", etc., though - it's neither endearing or necessary. I also request that someone pack it in if they're being overtly sexist, towards men as well as women - being unreasonable on either side is unhelpful and perpetuates aeons-old problems that really should be sorted by now. I've never hidden my female status, as I've every right to be shooting lasers or flying spaceships or jumping jungle ravines and decapitating orcs or guiding lemmings or building a suburb as the person next to me. Games are for everyone and hoorah for that!

Originally Posted by Lyrilo

A few years ago when I played my first MMO (WOW) and I revealed to other players I was a girl IRL, I did get a lot of grief. Mostly in the "girls are horrible gamers" category. Which, for me at the time, was kinda true. Not because I'm a girl but because I was a total noob and I was still learning the mechanics of how to play, let alone play well.

Hey, I have to say here, I was rubbish at LOTRO when i first started and still feel pretty amateur now in some ways. There were some of the things I didn't know about the game that common sense would have told me too which I'm fairly new to have learned.. eventually - for example after 3 years of playing i decided to buy a house and wouldnt settle for standard.. I thought i had to go to the homestead in question (Falathlorn), enter every neighbourhood one by one and ride around looking for a Deluxe house with a 'For Sale' sign out front. Doh! Luckily I only got a small way through the list before getting so bored, I realised that LOTRO must have an easier way of going about it - I generally find that with things i've made difficult for myself, there has always been a simple solution!

But, and the main point of me highlighting this quote, is that in any type of combat situation and generally with crafting, i'm better than some gamers i know that have been playing for years longer than me! And everyone, including every male that started out was just as rubbish as us females when they started and barely knew the first thing about it!

Originally Posted by Scarletstarr

I remember ages ago someone advising me that I should never tell LOTRO players that I'm female as I will shock and be shunned by the (apparently mostly) male community! I know it's way out there now, but I would love to hear peoples thoughts on this! I've never been shunned or shocked anyone by admitting my gender in game or on the forums, and it has become something of a humourous and unrealistic cliche to believe that girls shouldn't be gamers!

Does anyone actually really stand by this? xD

Good heavens, I hope not. I don't conceal my gender here or in any other game I play. The boys I'm proud to call my kinmates would be shocked to hear I'm not supposed to be hanging out with them.

Been thinking a bit more about this topic since I posted my litte story yesterday. I have been witnessing obscene/sexist behaviour and silly comments and quite a few times. Not going to let this pass any more.

But, what saddens me more is the constant gay harassment going on almost wherever you go, at least this is my impression. Maybe I've spent too much time in the ettenmoors amidst teenagers hating the world playing wargs or in the wrong kinship.... I know that this is off topic, but in my opinion this is a huge problem. Reading about how worthless gay people are and using gay/queer et cetera as a profanity must do something to people who are gay reading it. Not going to let this pass any more either. Maybe not reporting at first, just having a chat with the person uttering the harassment or silly comment. I think many people are used to that kind of language, and just don't think about what they are saying and how it could impact people.

Originally Posted by CaptainSnark

Um, wow. Please, do *your* research next time, because I'm pretty sure just because your wife has been lucky enough not to encounter some of the truly terrible people in gaming culture doesn't mean harassment doesn't exist or that it's just a "few bad apples". Anita Sarkeesian, for one, would beg to differ.

The comments section of that article on Anita Sarkeesian is absolutely unbelievable. And, that's with all the "bad" comments having already been deleted! Yeah, I'd say we still have a few thousand miles yet to go.

+rp for the link.

Originally Posted by ZirDust

Been thinking a bit more about this topic since I posted my litte story yesterday. I have been witnessing obscene/sexist behaviour and silly comments and quite a few times. Not going to let this pass any more.

But, what saddens me more is the constant gay harassment going on almost wherever you go, at least this is my impression. Maybe I've spent too much time in the ettenmoors amidst teenagers hating the world playing wargs or in the wrong kinship.... I know that this is off topic, but in my opinion this is a huge problem. Reading about how worthless gay people are and using gay/queer et cetera as a profanity must do something to people who are gay reading it. Not going to let this pass any more either. Maybe not reporting at first, just having a chat with the person uttering the harassment or silly comment. I think many people are used to that kind of language, and just don't think about what they are saying and how it could impact people.

Not entirely off topic, as all types of harassment are unacceptable and it would be hypocritical of us to stand up against one but not another. I too see much use of 'gay' to describe something negatively or to insult people. For example, someone once trolled a Turbine-promoted fashion show event by saying in regional chat 'Fashion show--are you all gay?' I was happy to see the community react swiftly and strongly in that case.

The often casual or thoughtless use of terms that are obviously insensitive to a category of people is a bad habit that should be addressed in an appropriate way. We obviously don't want to turn into the PC Police and /report everything we see, but we do want a community that doesn't make any player feel unwelcome. I think in general the LOTRO community does quite a good job in that regard compared to the other games I've seen.

+rep for making a good point

We used to have plenty of females in my kinship and usually they are couples with one of the male members. It does indeed create a new dynamic but I've never seen anyone shocked by anyones gender nor if they are gay or straight. I guess MMO's area place that all sorts of people play now and not just a few.

Originally Posted by ZirDust

Been thinking a bit more about this topic since I posted my litte story yesterday. I have been witnessing obscene/sexist behaviour and silly comments and quite a few times. Not going to let this pass any more.

*applauds!* (And no, that's not sarcasm.)

But, what saddens me more is the constant gay harassment going on almost wherever you go, at least this is my impression. [...] I know that this is off topic, but in my opinion this is a huge problem. Reading about how worthless gay people are and using gay/queer et cetera as a profanity must do something to people who are gay reading it. Not going to let this pass any more either. Maybe not reporting at first, just having a chat with the person uttering the harassment or silly comment. I think many people are used to that kind of language, and just don't think about what they are saying and how it could impact people.

Definitely agreed, and here's more applause for you showing spine. Slurs of any kind are far too prevalent, and especially with the younger demographic it can have disastrous results for self-confidence - it's like being spoon-fed a "you're worthless/abnormal/wrong" bit by bit every time these crop up, and yes, as someone on the queer spectrum I've been there. But unfortunately it's far easier dismiss something as "that's gay" instead of trying to explain a particular dislike, and most people using that sort of language still go by "sticks and stones may break my bones (but words can never hurt me)" even if it comes up. So educating people is awesome. Simply reporting them will at best make people angry (and probably reinforce their sentiment), explaining why you're taking issue with their behaviour/language (and that goes for any kind of slur, discrimination or shaming) may (at best) change some minds.

Only people shunning females in onlines games are virgins and people who lose against female players and have their egos hurt. Oh and other girls because females hate other females who try to take away attention form them.

That's from my personal experience of gaming for the past 10 years.

Originally Posted by ZirDust

Been thinking a bit more about this topic since I posted my litte story yesterday. I have been witnessing obscene/sexist behaviour and silly comments and quite a few times. Not going to let this pass any more.

But, what saddens me more is the constant gay harassment going on almost wherever you go, at least this is my impression. Maybe I've spent too much time in the ettenmoors amidst teenagers hating the world playing wargs or in the wrong kinship.... I know that this is off topic, but in my opinion this is a huge problem. Reading about how worthless gay people are and using gay/queer et cetera as a profanity must do something to people who are gay reading it. Not going to let this pass any more either. Maybe not reporting at first, just having a chat with the person uttering the harassment or silly comment. I think many people are used to that kind of language, and just don't think about what they are saying and how it could impact people.

Bravo! When my son was in middle school, the phrase "that's gay" became the predominate and nearly exclusive pejorative comment among his peers. The first time he used it in my presence, I casually asked him how he felt about gay people. He hummed and hawed a bit, but eventually admitted that he held no particular animosity toward gays. I told him in that case, I thought it was pretty poor use of the term by him. I let him know that I understood the overwhelming power of peer pressure, but that I thought it was cowardly to submit to it when the results could be so hurtful. I then made it clear that he could be any kind of jerk he wanted alone with his friends (not much I could do about it), but that I wouldn't tolerate it my presence.

Never heard the term issue from his lips again (he replaced it with "that sucks" - sigh). What surprised me though was when I heard him chastise one of his friends (there were several present) for using the phrase. Perhaps it was only because I was there, but still...

Anyway, thanks for making the point.

Originally Posted by brina_22

I'm female and I only have one male character. But thats only because I wanted to try a dwarf. But he wears a dress so I guess he's just a cross dresser or a female in disguise... :/ I think that most people assume I'm female though because I'm usually a female character. I've never been worried about the community shunning me because of my gender. I find it far more likely to be shunned because of my age. I'm only 21 so most people think I'm too young to really contribute to anything, or to know what I'm doing and talking about. I hate telling people my age because of all the stereotypes that come with it. But I'm proud to be a woman and I'm not afraid to say that I'm a girl that loves the Lord of the Rings. I always have and I always will.

I'm 21! Be proud and shout about it, you can only prove then how good you are and make people think twice before judging your age!

I have both male and female toons in LOTRO and in other games as well. I personally have not had any problems with anyone regarding my own gender. In the absence of voice chat, in LOTRO I'm generally treated as the gender of my toon. No one seems surprised when we do open voice chat.

In another game where there is no voice chat, I'm always treated as male because my toon there is male and in that game we have marriage (no gender restriction marriage) and I'm married to a female toon of another player (who happens to be female). I think it's more to do with role-playing.

Re: vulgarities, harrasment, "bad taste" and other chats. I always report. As soon as I see an "off topic" item the players get reported via whatever mechanism is provided by the game. Even on the ettenmoors were things can get a bit more "relaxed" there are some things which just cross the line and I'll report them too. It doesn't matter which gender the comments are aimed at - if it's off the scale I report it and let the GMs read the logs to do their own interpretation.

I did try TERA for a bit but the level of "off the scale" stuff there was just beyond me. They have a great mechanism for reporting things. I would login and see some pretty crude stuff going by and hit report and *poof* when that chat line but why other players didn't report that conversation as soon as it started up baffles me.

I'm sure some person did say that to you. And, maybe they even meant well. Maybe ...

With no real PvP, and a slightly more "mature" customer-base, LOTRO has always been one of the "safer" mmo games out there. And, Turbine also has enforced their code of conduct better than most mmo companies; yes, at times this enforcement is spotty, but overall, still better than most.

There are idiots/jerks, thoughtless fools, and borderline misogynists and haters everywhere. There is just less reason to hide their idiotic behavior in a game. However ...

If you are being harassed due to your gender or sexual preference, don't respond in kind, ask them politely to stop, take screenshots of the harassment chat text, and your responses and report it. Do NOT hide from it or fail to report it. Be assertive and stand up for yourself and report them. (I know for many this can be very hard.)

I know whereof I speak, too. (I'm married, with two daughters (one of whom plays LOTRO, is in a raiding kin and does very well thank you) and with 4 grand daughters (and 3 grandsons), all of whom I plan to try to "infect" with LOTRO as they get a bit older. I was an executive with 330 employess 82% of whom were female and nearly all female supervisors and managers as well, in an organization with 20K mostly male employees. I dealt with EEO sexual harassment issues, suspended an/or removed males (and females) who put their hairy (and not so hairy) toes over the line, etc.) So, in today's world, in America, at least, and in this game, you can expect to receive support if you will rationally and thoughtfully document the harassment and stand up for yourself, if necessary.

So, play the game, be who you are in a polite way, and enjoy yourself. Be proud of the good person you are working to be, and don't let the idiots deflect you from your life's path.

Originally Posted by Morgunthor

Only people shunning females in onlines games are virgins and people who lose against female players and have their egos hurt. Oh and other girls because females hate other females who try to take away attention form them.

That's from my personal experience of gaming for the past 10 years.

Personal experience being all well and good, your experience is not that of everyone, and putting it into the exact derogatory language that people were talking about upthread is not going to help. Defending one group at the expense of another is as divisive as the turnaround, and what exactly does someone's... uh, sexual prowess have to do with the presence or absence of misogyny (and I wonder how you learned they were virgins)? Beside being patently untrue, that's called shaming, and it's generally frowned upon. Likewise, the idea that women can't compete peacefully (or, goodness forbid, cooperate!) is a trope that's still being perpetuated and needs to go fade into obscurity already. There *is* a lot of internalized misogyny among women, but I daresay the ladies on this thread have proven you wrong several time over on the count that that's our default setting.

I really like the way this thread has progressed and all the different things that have been included, inluding the issue of sexuality which i strongly agree with. I didn't expect so much response!

Overall, what a good way to have seen how great the LOTRO community is. And even I didn't know there were as many female players as there actually are either.

It just goes to show. LOTRO is my first and only ever played MMO, having rejected WoW (Don't know why but something made me feel almost repulsed at the idea of it!) and any other MMO's that i knew of. I only rejected them because I saw quality in LOTRO (Prob being based on LOTR) that I didn't see in other MMO's, but I didn't anticipate the way the community compares to other MMO's too - and LOTRO scores top marks.

This society is male dominated. Our entertainment is male dominated. So are our video games. Sure we are geting used to it or dont notice it at all because we dont know it otherwise and cant tell the difference. If the proportion(s) of females in MMOs and Games are reising, it only means women have learned to live with the constasnt sexism they are confronted with.

But I can only say to all the women. Just imagine a world without men. Noone who judges you by your looks. Noone who tells you the only way of getting selfestime is being attractive and liked by man. Just think of such place and what you would do there as a true women. Not a toy for men.

I dont want to frighten you. But things will get worse. I am back from playing TERA a bit. And while its a remarkable developed and polished game it also has those borderline-elements regarding wemen and there perception by men.








I mean ... breastless, lucious childbodys in dessous ?!
I am already seeing myself leading even more heavy discussions about moral and ethics in TERA then I am used to do here ^^

Imagine all those 40year old real life males wich are playing those chars ... *shiver


Here is my question. Would you, as a Women create and play a child or baby like char like thoase in TERA?

And if, could you stand seeing this char then being dressed in sexy underware like armors and dessous?

Originally Posted by bastardoGrande

But I can only say to all the women. Just imagine a world without men. Noone who judges you by your looks. Noone who tells you the only way of getting selfestime is being attractive and liked by man. Just think of such place and what you would do there as a true women. Not a toy for men.

You seem to be implying that a world without men would be a utopia for women. That is complete bullplop. Plenty of women judge people by their looks, that is not a male specific trait. Aside from the obvious extinction of humankind that would swiftly follow, society as a whole would likely be just as messed up as it is now.

Originally Posted by Nyrion

You seem to be implying that a world without men would be a utopia for women. That is complete bullplop. Plenty of women judge people by their looks, that is not a male specific trait. Aside from the obvious extinction of humankind that would swiftly follow, society as a whole would likely be just as messed up as it is now.

Yeah.

There's a science fiction novel by Lois McMaster Bujold entitled Ethan of Athos. Athos is a planet which was founded several centuries before the time of the story, by a group of misogynistic men who reasoned, "Men make fools of themselves over women. If men could live entirely without women, they wouldn't act like fools!"

So they provided themselves with uterine replicators and a large stock of frozen ova, and colonized a planet for men only.

Did they stop making fools of themselves over women? Well, yes. Instead, they made fools of themselves over each other.

People are inclined to make fools of themselves over people, it appears; but there's no advantage in being rude about it.

Question. Would wemen wear make-up in a world whithout men? The answer can only be NO.

And I am not about drawing a line between men and wemen. I am talking about sexism. Since our society is male dominated. We have to deal with male-sexism much more then female imposed sexism. Dont you think?

On a side node. Wemen are the spiritual higher beings when compared to men. Ofc it is because wemen are able to give birth to new live.

They are 'the conduit' between the realms that form the world we live in.

But also they have one more 'body orifice' then men have. Wich makes them superior in occultism.
In ancient egypt for example Wemen where like Men in our society today.
They where the higher beings and the head of family and business.

If we start to go by gender stereotypes, there was a nice movie made in Poland in late 80ties by Juliusz Machulski.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088083/
Despite name ( Sex mission) and quite a bit of nudity shown on large screen, it was not a sex, but more of a comedy both about the gender stereotypes and about the then polish government functioning.

If you happen to get hands on it, dont pass that opportunity.

Thank you for posting those screenshots of TERA characters. That's definitely one off my list for giving a try! To answer more directly, no, I wouldn't play a game which featured little girls running around in their underwear as the only choices for female characters.

It's one more thing LOTRO has going for it--no chainmail bikinis, no mages in their undies. Much as we sometimes complain about the choices for armour in LOTRO, at least it's all reasonably sensible and doesn't force female characters to run around mostly naked.

Originally Posted by bastardoGrande

Here is my question. Would you, as a Women create and play a child or baby like char like thoase in TERA?

And if, could you stand seeing this char then being dressed in sexy underware like armors and dessous?

uhm well, I do play hobbits, but I would demand she wore some close though

Originally Posted by bastardoGrande

Question. Would wemen wear make-up in a world whithout men? The answer can only be NO.

And I am not about drawing a line between men and wemen. I am talking about sexism. Since our society is male dominated. We have to deal with male-sexism much more then female imposed sexism. Dont you think?

On a side node. Wemen are the spiritual higher beings when compared to men. Ofc it is because wemen are able to give birth to new live.

They are 'the conduit' between the realms that form the world we live in.

But also they have one more 'body orifice' then men have. Wich makes them superior in occultism.
In ancient egypt for example Wemen where like Men in our society today.
They where the higher beings and the head of family and business.

I don't really agree with your position. It's interesting that you should mention Egypt. Hatshepsut was one of the few female Egyptian pharaohs and one of the oldest discovered bits of graffiti comes from an unfinished tomb used as a rest area by workers. It's a pretty graphic depiction of Hatshepsut being violated by a man, so I won't link to it. But, if anyone is interested just Google "Hatshepsut graffitti." Egypt was generally a patriarchy just like the vast majority of civilizations. It doesn't appear they were that much different from ourselves.

IMHO