As mentioned many a post ago - this is hardly ever the situation the word 'ra.pe' will arise in. It's usually 'Let's go and ra.pe them', refering to either NPCs or a faceless opposition of players. Distorting the argument to make it personal, one on one, doesn't do your case any favours.
It was a hypothetical scenario, not a personal one on one question. This is a fairly common technique in any debate. And if you apply your suggested expression to the same LAN scenario, it would still create an unpleasant situation for the other player.
Let's be even simpler here. What if instead the phrase was "let's go lynch them"? Highly offensive, most people would recognize it as highly offensive in modern society, and yet you could apply the same defenses to using that phrase as are used with "let's go r*** them".
I don't see anything wrong with 'Let's go lynch them'. The phrase 'lynch' is used quite readily these days without any perceived hidden "racism" intended. 'Lynch mob' I've heard many a time used on mainstream media and if they're not the pinnacle of PC I don't know what is.
As for 'let's go ra.pe them' - as I said, if you're offended ask the person to stop using the term, if they refuse just /ignore them. But as the word is covered with the profanity filter I'm still a bit confused as to why people are complaining about a word they need not ever see in-game.
"'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Rune-Keeper! A Rune-Keeper is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Tolkien's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face."
Having a degree in English the posts made me try to think of simple words that can be used in the situation, some are far more lore friendly than others. Older terms that work just as well with the same ease of typing are raze, crush, wrack, wreck, waste or maraud. More modern connotations would be nuke, vaporize, decimate, extirpate, smash or mow. Not that hard to be original and also to expand the vocabulary of those around you. These are just a few terms, there are far more. Try a new word and expand everyone's vocabulary.
I like this idea even though I doubt anyone would.
I've heard this enough in various games to know it's pretty commonplace, but I do hate it. I've wondered why that became the 'favored' word, and wished it hadn't, but I just ignore it, and avoid folks who use it.
Puts pay to the idea of men being taller than women on average.
Actually, that doesn't. Having read all of the posts, I think it's obvious it isn't just little ole me that disagreed with you and are just as/more into the game. Not that it matters, but I found your point stupid. One person being abnormal in a picture on the web doesn't make a difference to the 'average', does it?
If i ignore all you people that agree with the things i find offensive, will you all p**s off, or will you still be here, droning on and on? Ignorance isn't always the best policy after all. Same in-game. Ignoring a vile term won't make the issue go away. Stand by my last post anyway, I've no more to say on the matters discussed....
..Except that if things carry on, I will take steps to get this thread removed. I asked a simple question and ended up having to acknowledge the existance of some blindly ignorant people on an issue I would rather never have been discussed. It has made me angry and upset me at times too.
To all those that fought strongly for the classy way of speech and acceptance of female gamers, I've really appreciated your input
Going back to the original subject, I have to say that as a female LOTRO player, I have not experienced any form of personal harassment, or any other negative or disparaging remarks. If asked, I do say that I'm a female--an OLD MARRIED female. I have had no requests to prove my femaleness, so far, but I am fully prepared to go on and on about my period and PMS symptoms if the other person just can't let go of the subject.
I've never been asked to prove it either but if it ever happens I'm totally going to remember this. I can just imagine the reaction. Props!
Actually, that doesn't. One person being abnormal in a picture on the web doesn't make a difference to the 'average', does it?
That was kind of my point.
Originally Posted by Scarletstarr
Ignoring a vile term won't make the issue go away.
Is the issue:
a) you find the term offensive?
or
b) You wish to change the climate so it's no longer used?
If it's the first one then use the profanity filter or ignore feature. If it's the second then good luck with that. In my opinion the more affect a word has on people the more some people will purposely use it to trigger a reaction. Your best bet is to ignore the term and it might be a phase that eventually goes.
"'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Rune-Keeper! A Rune-Keeper is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Tolkien's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face."
But as the word is covered with the profanity filter I'm still a bit confused as to why people are complaining about a word they need not ever see in-game.
This is another thing that annoys me. Just because there is a profanity filter does not mean there is free reign to use profanity as much as you want. If you can not see this then I doubt it can be explained.
Because the people who started using it knew it was offensive and wanted to cause offense. "Raze" is far too mild a word for gutter level trash talk. Ersatz gangstas trying to keep it real.
..Except that if things carry on, I will take steps to get this thread removed. I asked a simple question and ended up having to acknowledge the existance of some blindly ignorant people on an issue I would rather never have been discussed. It has made me angry and upset me at times too.
To all those that fought strongly for the classy way of speech and acceptance of female gamers, I've really appreciated your input
I'm sorry to hear that you've been upset by the direction the thread has taken, Scarletstarr. It certainly did go in quite a different direction from your original question, didn't it?
Personally I have found the debate very interesting, despite its occasional tension. We've seen that female gamers in LOTRO have a wide range of experiences: we have encountered players who hold onto stereotypes, and those who would argue against aiming for a higher standard in the way we treat each other, but we have also seen a great many players out there who contribute to making this a mature, fun, and welcoming community for all of us. I'd love to see the thread stay open and to see more of us share our experiences as female players.
Cheers to all for an invigorating and enlightening discussion!
I'm sorry to hear that you've been upset by the direction the thread has taken, Scarletstarr. It certainly did go in quite a different direction from your original question, didn't it?
Personally I have found the debate very interesting, despite its occasional tension. We've seen that female gamers in LOTRO have a wide range of experiences: we have encountered players who hold onto stereotypes, and those who would argue against aiming for a higher standard in the way we treat each other, but we have also seen a great many players out there who contribute to making this a mature, fun, and welcoming community for all of us. I'd love to see the thread stay open and to see more of us share our experiences as female players.
Cheers to all for an invigorating and enlightening discussion!
It certainly did. It has been an interesting debate, just one that has gone too far about too many issues.
Provided everyone can now go back to the point and mellow down a bit, I won't try to get it removed.. but I won't have it if someone wants to continue on this path, it makes me sick.
Beleg, do me a favour and never post on one of my threads again. I hate people who can't see where they're wrong despite the world and their cat throwing it in your face. Noone half decent with good strong points on this thread has agreed with you, which says alot for your feeble fight to be 'right' in what you say. Having an opinion is one thing - stating it is the right opinion over others is another. GL with that.
It certainly did. It has been an interesting debate, just one that has gone too far about too many issues.
This has been one of the most mild 'discussions' about a vaguely 'controversial' topic I've seen on the forums, EU included. I suggest you experience a few more before you declare that it's 'gone too far'.
Originally Posted by Scarletstarr
Provided everyone can now go back to the point and mellow down a bit, I won't try to get it removed.. but I won't have it if someone wants to continue on this path, it makes me sick.
Firstly the moderators only act when there has been a breach of the rules. Only in a single post on this thread have I been 'told off', and that was because of something that had nothing to do with what we were discussing.
Secondly I have no idea exactly what is making you sick. No one else seems to have found the thread quite so nauseating. There may be disagreement, occasionally bordering on annoyance, but I don't recall anyone saying it makes them sick.
Originally Posted by Scarletstarr
Beleg, do me a favour and never post on one of my threads again.
They aren't 'your threads'. You may start a thread but you don't 'own' it. Providing the forum rules are adhered to - and they have been overwhelmingly in this thread - you can't decide who can post in 'your threads' and who can't.
Originally Posted by Scarletstarr
I hate people who can't see where they're wrong despite the world and their cat throwing it in your face.
Firstly I suggest directing your hatred to something a little more worthwhile than someone who happens to disagree with you. There are many ills in this world that warrant hatred more than me, I can assure you.
Secondly to use this thread as some kind of standard to determine that my views are held by a tiny minority is unwise at best.
Originally Posted by Scarletstarr
Noone half decent with good strong points on this thread has agreed with you, which says alot for your feeble fight to be 'right' in what you say.
I've noticed that: you seem to only class people who agree with you as 'half decent'. Throughout this thread you have continually decried anyone who disagrees with you, me chief among them it seems, while calling those who agree with you 'amazing' over and over at the end of your posts. 'You people are amazing'.
Originally Posted by Scarletstarr
Having an opinion is one thing - stating it is the right opinion over others is another.
Where have I done that? Not once.
"'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Rune-Keeper! A Rune-Keeper is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Tolkien's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face."
I haven't read most of this topic as its just too rediculous but my opinion is that the profanity filter is there for a reason, along with the ignore function.
People say this is a mature game, if that's the case, people need to be mature enough to respect other people's freedom for speech and freedom of expression (which includes the freedom to offend).
If you can't do that, you should go somewhere with less freedoms, but as a woman I think you would like that even less.
Personally I rarely use language any stronger than the word "Damn", but I think its childish for people to get all irate about someones choice of language.
Actually, i'm not going to make the points i posted.
I have asked for the thread to be closed.
Sorry to those who wanted to keep it open, but this is not the place for the discussion that has been had here and I will not tolerate the effects of it. THis is LOTRO, not topix.com.
Last edited by Scarletstarr; Jul 05 2012 at 10:56 AM.
I will decide when its gone too far on 'my' thread, thanks.
No, the moderators will. And it seems to be your intention to get it closed by turning it into a slanging match where it need not have been.
Originally Posted by Scarletstarr
It's not for your concern what makes me sick about it. You seem to enjoy it, but then you're a man with nothing but your hand for company, guess that means you'll condone anything.
Personal insults are something which break forum rules, I'd just like to point that out.
Originally Posted by Scarletstarr
Why don't you read stuff like someone with a brain.
As above.
Originally Posted by Scarletstarr
Yes, EVEN people half decent who may still talk like sh*t in RL have the decency to recognise when it's wrong here. I don't know who does and who doesn't, but the point is that it doesn't take a great amount of decency to work out the wrong in whats been said.
Exactly what is 'wrong' in this thread? I was under the impression people were posting their opinions. There has been no clear-cut 'right' and 'wrong'.
Originally Posted by Scarletstarr
Lastly, don't 'firstly' and 'secondly' me.
Firstly, don't 'lastly' me.
Originally Posted by Scarletstarr
You have all the opinions you want and be proved wrong however many times you like and never accept it.. your problem.
Exactly how have I been proven wrong in this thread, when this thread has had little to do with facts since the beginning? Neither the ra.pe discussion nor the other one were something either 'side' could 'prove' the other right or wrong, they were opinions.
Originally Posted by Scarletstarr
I don't know who you think you are, but you clearly just love a good arguement, and if thats what you want, all you have to do is try using your opinions on someone with an ounce of self-respect in RL.
I'm guessing you don't have much experience of forums. They're designed for discussion and debate, not uniform agreement.
Originally Posted by Scarletstarr
So much for you leaving this thread now (how many posts ago..?)
I did leave it. Check and see for yourself. Right up to the point my opinion was brought back up by someone.
Originally Posted by Scarletstarr
Oh by the way, if you don't 'know you're just in it for an arguement' and are just simply having 'an opinion' on a matter which 'youre right' in, why i wonder would you disable rep... funny that, the only person to be so vulgar, and the only person to disable rep since i've been on these boards.. almost like you know what a bad response you're always in for.
Firstly I disable rep because the feature is flawed in my opinion. It doesn't necessarily grade people according to their contribution, rather it serves only as a popularity contest for people such as yourself to give Positive Rep to those you agree with, however inadequate their contribution may have been, and to give Negative Rep to people you disagree with, however thought-out and insightful the post may otherwise have been.
Just for your own peace of mind though, you'll be delighted to know the positive rep I've received far outweighs the very rare negative rep I've received.
Originally Posted by Scarletstarr
This is not the kind of discussion to have on this forum.
Sounds to me as though you knew this topic may bring up some controversial subjects and you were happy to do so up until the discussions no longer went your way and you found yourself up against opinions which sharply contradicted your own, heaven forbid.
Last edited by Beleg-Of-Doriath; Jul 05 2012 at 12:18 PM.
"'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Rune-Keeper! A Rune-Keeper is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Tolkien's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face."
Thank you Scarlettstar. I agree with you to end the thread. It has been hijacked by a person who seems to want attention and is oblivious to the sentiments of others who want simply to build a better world. If he were in your house, you would certainly have asked him to leave. I doubt that anything said would lead him to stop his constant argument that he is right and everyone else is wrong. Sad.
Thank you Scarlettstar. I agree with you to end the thread. It has been hijacked by a person who seems to want attention and is oblivious to the sentiments of others who want simply to build a better world. If he were in your house, you would certainly have asked him to leave. I doubt that anything said would lead him to stop his constant argument that he is right and everyone else is wrong. Sad.
Uhhm wow. I've not posted a couple of days cause my kids have chicken pox -.- Anyone want two spotty children? No one?
I have managed the quick read to keep me up to date tho. To be honest I see no real reason for closing the thread. While Beleg-Of-Doriath's style is somewhat inflammatory he has merely voiced an opinion. To be honest I've seen so many of you back out of conversation with him only to jump right back in. While its been obvious that Beleg and myself are on opposites sides I thank him for giving me the opportunity to voice my opinions. In replying to his posts I've had the opportunity to voice my beliefs and opinions about this controversial topic and as a result I've had a few people in game tell me they've thought about it, they see the arguement, they'll try to think before they use the term. So, I won... thats all I wanted. I mention way early in the thread that this was the point, to challenge our actions and words, to hope maybe you reach someone and that they reach someone in turn. Its not revolutionary or fast, sometimes its hella frustrating.
While I responded to some of Beleg's posts I'd like to think I didn't engage him in squabbling. He seems to have a comeback for everything and I concentrated on the posts where I felt he was making a point or posting a question that I felt I had and arguement or answer for and then I ignored the posts where his arguement was weak or snide, IMO of course.
I also feel that you close the thread and you've hit /ignore the very thing most of you were argueing over. If its too frustrating, take a little stepback, recompose... count to 10?
All of the above is of course always just IMO! Regardless of whether the thread is closed or not... thanks peeps been fun!
I'm in the Juvenile Law-Enforcement Crime Division, I have seen the bad consequences so many times, people need to stop and think someone in their life at some point and time knows someone(s) that dealt with this. Too many parents and families broken up because that act is more and more used.
My two brothers 1 in Navy, 1 in Army (deceased) saw their share of assaults in Ahgan/Iraq, they broke up several. Turning over fellow military or natives prisoners to the brig/cooler/stockade was always great.
C.I.D. shared a good quote with our department
"Just because a word or action is legal, doesn't mean it is right."
My Armor is Contempt, My Shield is Disgust, My Sword is Hatred
In the Emperor's Name, let None Survive!
I haven't read most of this topic as its just too rediculous but my opinion is that the profanity filter is there for a reason, along with the ignore function.
People say this is a mature game, if that's the case, people need to be mature enough to respect other people's freedom for speech and freedom of expression (which includes the freedom to offend).
If you can't do that, you should go somewhere with less freedoms, but as a woman I think you would like that even less.
Personally I rarely use language any stronger than the word "Damn", but I think its childish for people to get all irate about someones choice of language.
By the standards of human decency, just because you have the right to stay something doesn't mean you should. I hate when people try to use 'freedom of speech's as an excuse to be a self-centered jerk.
Also keep in mind that freedom of speech only extends to government regulation. As a private entity, Turbine can censor whatever it wants. As a mature game, people should be mature enough to respect other's opinions and sensibilities, including real-life situations that extend into game play. Just because there's a profanity filter and I can doesn't mean I would cuss around some kid playing. It's not right.
I'm disappointed how this thread turned out. We had some good discussion and I learned a lot and was happy to be able to clarify and voice my opinion.
people need to be mature enough to respect other people's freedom for speech and freedom of expression (which includes the freedom to offend).
Don't forget that this includes freedom to tell someone that you are offended, freedom to tell them to shut up, freedom to ostracize them, etc.
but I think its childish for people to get all irate about someones choice of language.
We have long ago disproven the kindergarten poem "sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never hurt me". Words do hurt and they do cause damage especially when the speaker uses those words to hurt (and yes, I believe many of these trash talkers do use these terms because they know that they offend and hurt).
This is how society works. We divide behavior up into acceptable and unacceptable in order to get along with each other better. If someone insists on doing the unacceptable then society will react against them. Of course these standards change over time, and the standards are different in various contexts. I think perhaps some young males consider internet games to be their private clubhouse and are angered when they're told that girls can come too and that they need to be polite and play nicely.
Don't forget that this includes freedom to tell someone that you are offended, freedom to tell them to shut up, freedom to ostracize them, etc.
We have long ago disproven the kindergarten poem "sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never hurt me". Words do hurt and they do cause damage especially when the speaker uses those words to hurt (and yes, I believe many of these trash talkers do use these terms because they know that they offend and hurt).
This is how society works. We divide behavior up into acceptable and unacceptable in order to get along with each other better. If someone insists on doing the unacceptable then society will react against them. Of course these standards change over time, and the standards are different in various contexts. I think perhaps some young males consider internet games to be their private clubhouse and are angered when they're told that girls can come too and that they need to be polite and play nicely.
Dangit...'You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Lohi again.' Well said, again
I'm not going to re-hash any of the ground that's been gone over, but I'll just say this - if something is being caught by the profanity filter, then that's a pretty clear indication that Turbine thinks that it's not okay to use in game. There are a few obvious (and hilarious) exceptions, like "Penetrating Shot," the Hunter skill, getting filtered (at least I think that was LOTRO...) The word that has been causing this discussion is obviously not filtered by accident.
And the existence of the filter has never been an excuse that legitimizes the use of such words.
We have long ago disproven the kindergarten poem "sticks and stones can break my bones but words can never hurt me". Words do hurt and they do cause damage especially when the speaker uses those words to hurt (and yes, I believe many of these trash talkers do use these terms because they know that they offend and hurt).
The moral of that 'poem' is that although words can be hurtful the poem instructs the reciter to harden their heart, to not let such trifles like name-calling affect them.
As opposed to the favoured tactic today (which you seem to adhere to) which is to socially engineer 'offensive' and 'hurtful' things out of society altogether, which has, and will continue to, lead to disaster.
It wasn't that long ago that sprogs which couldn't handle a bit of name calling (no, I'm not talking about out-right bullying before that strawman comes out) and got all unnecessary over it and ran off to tell the teacher were looked down upon. It was this 'peer pressure' and things like that 'poem' that were designed to toughen them up a bit, not have them wrapped up in bubble wrap.
Originally Posted by Lohi
This is how society works. We divide behavior up into acceptable and unacceptable in order to get along with each other better. If someone insists on doing the unacceptable then society will react against them. Of course these standards change over time, and the standards are different in various contexts.
There used to be long-standing ideas of what those boundries were. These days they seem to change every other week. All the while squeezing down on the concept of free speech.
Originally Posted by Lohi
I think perhaps some young males consider internet games to be their private clubhouse and are angered when they're told that girls can come too and that they need to be polite and play nicely.
Firstly there hasn't been anyone in this thread that objects to the idea of female gamers.
Secondly about that last bit: "and that they need to be polite and play nicely", what on earth is that supposed to mean? Because girls are now gamers we need to abide by new sets of rules? Keep schtum, place nicely in case we upset the newcomers? Sounds like special treatment to me.
"'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Rune-Keeper! A Rune-Keeper is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Tolkien's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face."
It must be a dark world you live in, if empathy and politeness are considered special treatment.
I was raised to speak respectfully to people, to try to understand others' points of view and treat people kindly even if I didn't agree with those views, and where possible to avoid offending or hurting people. I am passing those values on to my son. That is treatment I would like to receive from others. That is what I am asking for when I discuss the use of the term that has been debated in this thread.
Despite all the argument and emotion on both sides, it really is this simple: Some of us find that word in that context to be uncomfortable or offensive, and we would like people to stop using it that way. Yes, there is a filter for text chat, yes we can ignore or report, but, speaking only for myself, I would prefer (note I say prefer, not order or demand) for people to understand that this term is uncomfortable at best and painful at worst for victims of that crime, and therefore I think it is a reasonable solution for people to choose another word out of the many alternatives. Am I asking to ban or censor anyone who ever says it? No. Am I saying people don't have a right to express themselves freely? No. Am I saying that people who use that term are by definition evil human beings? No. I'm saying I'd like people to think about the effect of their words before they open their mouths, no more, no less.
I don't know how else to explain my feelings on the matter, and to honor the OP's wishes, that will be my last post on the terminology topic. I'd love to see the thread return to the intended original question: female gamers talking about what it's like to be a female gamer in LOTRO, which despite the thread hijack (in which I played a part so I apologize for that), was full of positive and encouraging statements about the great environment for a diverse global player community that we have here. Personally I liked the thoughts shared by females who play as couples and would like to hear more on that. Anyone?
I'd love to see the thread return to the intended original question: female gamers talking about what it's like to be a female gamer in LOTRO, which despite the thread hijack (in which I played a part so I apologize for that), was full of positive and encouraging statements about the great environment for a diverse global player community that we have here. Personally I liked the thoughts shared by females who play as couples and would like to hear more on that. Anyone?
I play with my husband...wait now that came out wrong :/
Seriously though we have a lot of fun ingame together. We generally duo a team together but he is lazy so I have some I dragged up solo. I find that lots of people are surprised when they find out I game with my husband which I find odd... we're together because we have mutual things in common, gaming being one of them. I'm always more surprised with some of my male kinnies who are moaning that their mrs is watching Britains Got Talent or some other such show lol seems strange to me not to be enjoying each others company. Different people, different ways eh?
I, for one, am sick to death of the "it's just words" defense. There's nothing more powerful in our world than words. People have fought and died for words - certainly more than for any other reason in quantifiable history. Words are, in fact, what keep us from being more than dumb brutes.
The reason why we are here, playing this game, is words. The reason why we're exchanging ideas on this forum is words. The only reason this game even exists, is words.
There is no bigger contradiction around than "it's just words." The right (or wrong) words will always have more impact than the biggest fist.
I play with my husband...wait now that came out wrong :/
Seriously though we have a lot of fun ingame together. We generally duo a team together but he is lazy so I have some I dragged up solo. I find that lots of people are surprised when they find out I game with my husband which I find odd... we're together because we have mutual things in common, gaming being one of them. I'm always more surprised with some of my male kinnies who are moaning that their mrs is watching Britains Got Talent or some other such show lol seems strange to me not to be enjoying each others company. Different people, different ways eh?
My wife and I started playing EQ, went to WoW for a year, tried LOTRO and fell in love with the game, our families play, several of our friends play, we had nights here 5-6 people in our house on our wireless, playing and laughing, make it easy for talking to groupmates, lol.
My Armor is Contempt, My Shield is Disgust, My Sword is Hatred
In the Emperor's Name, let None Survive!
I play with my husband...wait now that came out wrong :/
Seriously though we have a lot of fun ingame together. We generally duo a team together but he is lazy so I have some I dragged up solo. I find that lots of people are surprised when they find out I game with my husband which I find odd... we're together because we have mutual things in common, gaming being one of them. I'm always more surprised with some of my male kinnies who are moaning that their mrs is watching Britains Got Talent or some other such show lol seems strange to me not to be enjoying each others company. Different people, different ways eh?
Nice, Maendae. Always great to have shared hobbies!
I duo with by sweetie, whom I met in game (no, he was not one of those who tried to lure me into the back rooms of the Pony ).
The reason I was particularly interested in that topic is that I've met a fair number of couples who play, and an equal number of people who seem to think that couples don't play well (i.e. one is 'carrying' the other, or they don't take the game seriously, or whatever). I wasn't in a couple until after I had already established myself as a reasonably competent (no hunter jokes here hehe) endgame player, so I was just curious whether couple players ever get any weirdness from other players.
I, for one, am sick to death of the "it's just words" defense. There's nothing more powerful in our world than words. People have fought and died for words - certainly more than for any other reason in quantifiable history. Words are, in fact, what keep us from being more than dumb brutes.
The reason why we are here, playing this game, is words. The reason why we're exchanging ideas on this forum is words. The only reason this game even exists, is words.
There is no bigger contradiction around than "it's just words." The right (or wrong) words will always have more impact than the biggest fist.
'Words' cannot all be jumbled together into one catagory. Words only hold as much power as the possible actions that can stem from them.
For example if a world leader said about another world leader: 'That guy is a dwarf' then the possible actions that might stem from that are minimal in comparison to if he had said: 'I'm going to invade his country'. The first statement might make further relations a bit frosty and generate material for the media but the second statement could potentially start a war or sanctions etc.
Using that same example in a positive light we could have the following: 'That guy was quite intelligent', in comparison to: 'We could make an alliance with his country'. The former is a compliment that doesn't really signify that any actions will arise from it. The second is also positive but has the potential for alot of good actions to arise from it.
Name-calling is a type of speech which doesn't have much potential for causing harm providing the person receiving the name-calling is aware of that. That's where the phrase: 'Sticks and stones will break my bones but names can never hurt me' comes in. Once a person adopts that attitude the name-caller will either abandon the name-calling and leave the person alone or change to a different catagory - threats - which are different to name-calling because the scope of actions that can stem from them is much more severe, re my example above.
For example a child calls another child 'fat' - it's a dead end statement. It's only intent is to mock, ridicule, hurt the other child. Providing the other child adopts the 'Sticks and Stones' attitude then nothing more can arise from that insult. It's a dead end. But if the child had said: 'I'm gonna beat you up after school' then that is another story.
The casual use of the word ra.pe in this game seems to me to more in the 'name-calling' camp than the threats camp. Personally I'm not convinced that the casual use of the word ra.pe in this game - as I've seen it used - can generate any harmful actions. Some people are of the opinion it trivialises the act and may therefore filter down to the act becoming more widespread. I'm not convinced of that personally but that's their opinion. If this was such a major concern for them then I hope they also campaign on things which actually do affect the rate this crime, and other crime, is commited. Like the utterly failed prison system for starters.
In short to answer you directly - yes words can be powerful in terms of what actions can come from them. But they can also be 'just words', that is to say something not to pay much attention to because they won't lead to anything either good or ill, dead-end statements.
/midnight ramble over
"'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Rune-Keeper! A Rune-Keeper is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Tolkien's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face."
'Words' cannot all be jumbled together into one catagory. Words only hold as much power as the possible actions that can stem from them.
For example if a world leader said about another world leader: 'That guy is a dwarf' then the possible actions that might stem from that are minimal in comparison to if he had said: 'I'm going to invade his country'. The first statement might make further relations a bit frosty and generate material for the media but the second statement could potentially start a war or sanctions etc.
Using that same example in a positive light we could have the following: 'That guy was quite intelligent', in comparison to: 'We could make an alliance with his country'. The former is a compliment that doesn't really signify that any actions will arise from it. The second is also positive but has the potential for alot of good actions to arise from it.
Name-calling is a type of speech which doesn't have much potential for causing harm providing the person receiving the name-calling is aware of that. That's where the phrase: 'Sticks and stones will break my bones but names can never hurt me' comes in. Once a person adopts that attitude the name-caller will either abandon the name-calling and leave the person alone or change to a different catagory - threats - which are different to name-calling because the scope of actions that can stem from them is much more severe, re my example above.
For example a child calls another child 'fat' - it's a dead end statement. It's only intent is to mock, ridicule, hurt the other child. Providing the other child adopts the 'Sticks and Stones' attitude then nothing more can arise from that insult. It's a dead end. But if the child had said: 'I'm gonna beat you up after school' then that is another story.
The casual use of the word ra.pe in this game seems to me to more in the 'name-calling' camp than the threats camp. Personally I'm not convinced that the casual use of the word ra.pe in this game - as I've seen it used - can generate any harmful actions. Some people are of the opinion it trivialises the act and may therefore filter down to the act becoming more widespread. I'm not convinced of that personally but that's their opinion. If this was such a major concern for them then I hope they also campaign on things which actually do affect the rate this crime, and other crime, is commited. Like the utterly failed prison system for starters.
In short to answer you directly - yes words can be powerful in terms of what actions can come from them. But they can also be 'just words', that is to say something not to pay much attention to because they won't lead to anything either good or ill, dead-end statements.
/midnight ramble over
You know, I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion again, but you are so incredibly wrong here that I thought I'd take one more run at you with the hope that you'll glimpse at least a bit of the light on the other side. I don't mean that your opinions are wrong, I mean your entire current view of reality is wrong in my opinion.
Threats are not the only words that do damage. In fact, they are frequently unlikely to be damaging at all. They might cause temporary fear in the recipient, they might precipitate a violent defensive reaction unanticipated by the threatener--many reactions are possible--but they rarely manifest in and of themselves in short or long term damage to the actual person who receives them. There are exceptions, of course, but they are very rare.
The same can't be said for ridiculing another person. Being relentlessly "teased" for being "fat" or "queer" or "ugly" or "weird" can be devastating for a child, and the damage can be long term. Or it can be immediate. Do you ever read a paper or watch TV? We have children all over this country committing suicide! Children, for God's sake! Committing suicide! And, it's almost never because of threats or even actual acts of violence. Ask any kid who is going through this and to a person they will honestly claim that they'd rather have some stranger bloody their nose for no reason whatsoever than to continue to endure what they are going through.
Words matter. They matter a lot. And there is a simple reason why. It's because we are social animals (or beings, if you prefer). And yes, I'll grant that some can handle it better than others. But, that's not the point. Nobody likes it. And, there are even some that would rather die than endure it.
Yes, "Sticks and stones will break my bones but names can never hurt me" has been taught to children in an attempt to give them a method of dealing with it, and maybe even to toughen them up a bit. But, it was never intended to be used to trivialize or justify the acts themselves. Nobody in their right mind would suggest that it's okay for me to call someone names because they don't hurt. That's absurd. Of course they hurt. They are intended to hurt. Name-calling is used because it works.
We are mostly adults here who have survived those childhood traumas, whether we were on the receiving end or the other. Many of us have probably spent at least a day or two on both sides when we were children, taunting and being taunted. Some of us were damaged or scarred by it more than others. Some of us got through it with no damage whatsoever (or at least none that we'll admit to). But, the thing is, we're still social beings even as adults, so words and their implications still affect us.
Invite a woman to dinner on a date, and somewhere after the apppetizers, call her a "dumb c-word." How long do you think the date is going to last? And, how many more dates do you think you'll have with her?
Words matter. They matter a lot. They always have. And it wasn't just intellectuals and poets who understood this throughout the centuries. It's why "polite conversation" was invented, and why every normal person in every level of society, educated or not, used it. There have always been words, terms, and phrases that were never used in front of strangers or polite company. "Political correctness" isn't some new kind of assault on language. It's been with us since we stumbled out of the cave. Because words matter. They matter a lot.
Many have stated that they find the way a particular term is being used demeaning. And yes, we have freedom of speech. We can say whatever we want. But, why in God's name would anyone with even a gram of true character wish to abuse that right by demeaning someone else after they've made it clear that it does so?
They talk about harassment. There is no need for it in video games. Yes, you can ignore but really what does that do? Nothing in the long run. If you can go to youtube and watch the cross assault videos where someone was using those kind of words and destroyed someone love of gaming. She was ignoring it at first and just shrugging it off.
I really want to see video games become more main stream but it isn't if this kind of behavior is tolerated.
Many have stated that they find the way a particular term is being used demeaning. And yes, we have freedom of speech. We can say whatever we want. But, why in God's name would anyone with even a gram of true character wish to abuse that right by demeaning someone else after they've made it clear that it does so?
Originally Posted by kimano
I really want to see video games become more main stream but it isn't if this kind of behavior is tolerated.
I think this is perhaps where the female gamer thing and the language thing join up together, really. The larger the community becomes, and the greater the variety in players, the more defensive - and offensive, sometimes - the old guard often become as they perceive a loss of control over what they consider, to a greater or lesser extent, their territory. Deliberating offending other players is a way of reducing competition and maintaining control. Being a big fish in a small pond is noticeable. When the pond becomes an ocean, the big fish can feel suddenly diminished. The brave and skilled fish, of course, looks forward to the challenge of achieving the newly achievable status of Leviathan. And I think that's as far as I can stretch this metaphor... haha. But my point is that hostility to female gamers isn't necessarily an outright sexist thing - although it may frequently and lazily draw on its pool of dubious and disparaging language and behaviour - but rather just an attempt to curb the influx of *anyone* who may upset the previously-established hierarchy and tentative status quo.
In short: the more women who play, the longer we play for, the less we will be perceived as unwelcome outsiders. So, play on, everyone! We all share a passion for playing computer games and long may we roam Middle Earth, having fun along the way!
It doesn't matter to me what people mean when they say the word r***. I accept that they probably mean it in a different sense, but whenever I hear that word I can't help but think of ugly sexual violence, and that's not the sort of thing I want to suddenly be thinking about while playing a game. So, I really wish people would have a bit of consideration and use a different word instead.
On the main topic:
I've been playing MMOs for around 12 years now, and although I've been followed around occasionally by some misguided fool wanting to know if I'm really a girl and if so, what my particulars are, I've never witnesses true harassment. In older times, when women gamers were less common, other players were often surprised that I was female, but I never saw any sign that it bothered them or that they were treating me any different. There again, I'm not overly feminine by nature, so people probably don't instinctively feel they need to be protective or patronising. Imo, if you want to be treated equally - and this goes for both sexes - you can't also expect special privileges.
Aside: I'm educating an older male colleague at work... he almost explodes from a fit of 'does not compute' when I hold the door open for him. I'm trying to teach him that manners and courtesy should work both ways, i.e. regardless of whether someone is male or female. I hope I've instilled this in my sons and daughter's too.
Aside: I'm educating an older male colleague at work... he almost explodes from a fit of 'does not compute' when I hold the door open for him. I'm trying to teach him that manners and courtesy should work both ways, i.e. regardless of whether someone is male or female. I hope I've instilled this in my sons and daughter's too.
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Originally Posted by Beleg-Of-Doriath
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I've never been asked to prove it either but if it ever happens I'm totally going to remember this. I can just imagine the reaction. Props!
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