Thread: Know your allies before you blame your enemies

Originally Posted by pibob314

By Ploks definition of exploiting, he too is an exploiter. He once caught me by TA, I pulled him around to the norbogs north west of the keep to minimise the chance of getting interrupted, despite having the jump on me, I managed to make him use uruk heal, then when I was at about 1k health, and he was about 4k, he popped moving target and won the fight. No big deal, I have fights like that against BA's all the time. I retreated and returned quickly from lugs rez, saw Plok at TA west door, dismounted, hit him once, and he bailed into the keep. I followed, expecting him to stop and fight me once I had a few npc's on me, but no, he wasn't interested in fighting at all without his cd's and a guaranteed victory. He went straight up and into the tyrant room, without stopping or turning round to shoot me once. On my way out of the keep, with several npc's on me, 3 wargs jumped me and I died again.

Clearly, according to the new definition of exploiting, Plok is also an exploiter. He uses mechanics and skills to exploit others and have an unfair advantage, and if that advantage is not there, he will not fight.

Pot, meet kettle.


Sarcasm aside, exploiting is a bannable offence. If they are doing something that is considered an exploit, report it, they'll get banned. Admittedly, when used in full quota, the freep skill set, with all its buffs, debuffs, heals, emergency skills, burst dps etc. is far more powerful than the creep skill set.

It has always been the case that freep grouping potential was higher than creep grouping potential. However, in the past, high ranked creeps were more powerful than most freeps individually, and this made grouping the great equaliser.

Now, freeps are more powerful individually AND they still have much higher grouping potential. No-one is denying things are unbalanced.

We, freeps, creeps, all, can only play with the cards we're dealt with. Just because people play those cards, does not make it an exploit (so long as it's done in the intended way).

Calling people exploiters, i.e. cheaters, just because they are using everything at there disposal to be difficult to beat, even when outnumbered, is seriously bad form. It is petty, childish and frankly rather pathetic. Is the warg who maps to grams and waits for disappear/sprint cd's an exploiter too? It's annoying, it's unbalanced, it's many things, but it's not exploiting.

Exploiting is one of the most greivious accusations one can make of somebody in an MMO. It should not be thrown around lightly. The fact that someone can so easily brand such kind of accusations, simply based on their opinion on what skills should or should not be used in the moors, shows a serious lack of class and respect.

You are correct on one front, I have zero respect for freep players, especially ones who group up to make it a comedy act.

I fight no win situations constantly just being on creepside. I am flattered you took the time to type out your story too.

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

You are correct on one front, I have zero respect for freep players, especially ones who group up to make it a comedy act.

So...you want freeps to remain ungrouped while you're free to group? 'kay...

I started grouping again when warg packs became the default standard for creepside on Landroval. Do you consider warg packs exploiters too? Or is using stealth + burst + overwhelming numbers on creepside OK just because it's creepside?

Part of the disconnect in all of this is that we, the gaming community at large, put too much of the negative on the word "exploit." Let's dispense with the semantics and the buttsoreness that's going with it and get to the real point.

Originally Posted by pibob314

Sarcasm aside, exploiting is a bannable offence. If they are doing something that is considered an exploit, report it, they'll get banned. Admittedly, when used in full quota, the freep skill set, with all its buffs, debuffs, heals, emergency skills, burst dps etc. is far more powerful than the creep skill set.

It has always been the case that freep grouping potential was higher than creep grouping potential. However, in the past, high ranked creeps were more powerful than most freeps individually, and this made grouping the great equaliser.

Now, freeps are more powerful individually AND they still have much higher grouping potential. No-one is denying things are unbalanced.

There is what says it all, and from one who's taken the freep goggles off. Group for group, the mechanics...no, the technique (e.g. skill combinations, teamwork, ad infinitum) employed by the Garnival outstrip what a comparable-sized creep force can combat. Even at 2:1 odds, it's still weighed heavily in the Garnival's favor.

Quite simply, it's an exercise in frustration. I like a good fight as much as the next player - and I readily include ones I've lost under that heading. I've been blasted for not wanting to take twice the number of wargs against the Garnival, but the problem is that all it's accomplishing is free renown for the freeps and a port to the nearest rez for us. That stops being fun real fast. Same in a mixed raid...when 18 creeps are pounding on 1 freep and that 1 freep's morale barely drops below 3/4s or is getting healed back to full every 5 secs (maybe a little exaggerated, but still)...

If those of you in the garnival want kudos for your cleverness, then fine, I'll acknowledge it. But don't expect us to blow sunshine up your 6:00's when that same technique is one of the clearest examples of power imbalance in the game.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

So...you want freeps to remain ungrouped while you're free to group? 'kay...

I started grouping again when warg packs became the default standard for creepside on Landroval. Do you consider warg packs exploiters too? Or is using stealth + burst + overwhelming numbers on creepside OK just because it's creepside?

You can use every skill and combo and passive to your group's advantage, but we can't? 'kay....

Yep...I can play too.

-pup-

Nice post Wulf, I tend to agree.

What the Garnival is doing is not an exploit - they are using what they have been given. It may be broken mechanics or what not, it surely isn't an exploit. If it puts them in ezmode godmode, so be it - you don't have to fight them. With what I've seen in the Moors, if the creeps had the same opportunity they would surely be doing the same exact thing.

Playing exclusively creepside, and knowing my limitations (and I do suck), I typically bypass Garnival fights or fights I have no business starting (3 or 4 vs me). But that's my choice, I can still have fun finding fights elsewhere. I use what skills are given to me, and do the best I can.

Originally Posted by tykoshi

You can use every skill and combo and passive to your group's advantage, but we can't? 'kay....

Yep...I can play too.

-pup-

You totally missed it I guess, lol. It's PLOK'S argument not mine

Originally Posted by NeedlesslyLargeRod

Any defiler on the server, with R7 Audacity their healing abilities, flies, Blight and CODS. There is literally no class more influential than this.

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...opinions/page3

Scroll down to post 105, players who play both sides will say the exact same thing.

Thats one guy opinion. A well played defiler in a tight battle zone can be a battle changer, but not more than a well played LM or RK for exemple.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

So...you want freeps to remain ungrouped while you're free to group? 'kay...

I started grouping again when warg packs became the default standard for creepside on Landroval. Do you consider warg packs exploiters too? Or is using stealth + burst + overwhelming numbers on creepside OK just because it's creepside?

A quality troll

rehash of history.. differant words, same theme.

When Creeps actually have some wins it's called a bug.

When Creeps are getting rolled over and over.. its because we lack skill.

seen this theme a dozen times over the past five years

PPPPP
Bast

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

So...you want freeps to remain ungrouped while you're free to group? 'kay...

I started grouping again when warg packs became the default standard for creepside on Landroval. Do you consider warg packs exploiters too? Or is using stealth + burst + overwhelming numbers on creepside OK just because it's creepside?

You can do whatever you like. I will not however put any number of players against the unwinable EZmode mechanics you are employing in that grp. Farm away within the confines of an all but unkillable group.

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

A quality troll

Not a troll dude. That's really not my style unless it's Danuf.

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

How is that JUST BEING a creep player? I guess they come out of grams r7 audcaity and loaded with skills.

By your logic, freeps should QQ that a level 40 char isn't able to dominate right out of the gate.

Your premise is incredibly flawed Mr Fizz Fizz.

Originally Posted by BloodCelt

rehash of history.. differant words, same theme.

When Creeps actually have some wins it's called a bug.

When Creeps are getting rolled over and over.. its because we lack skill.

seen this theme a dozen times over the past five years

PPPPP
Bast

You forgot, when people on either side play well and/or win a fight, it's an exploit and they're cheating.

Originally Posted by NeedlesslyLargeRod

By your logic, freeps should QQ that a level 40 char isn't able to dominate right out of the gate.

Your premise is incredibly flawed Mr Fizz Fizz.

A lvl 75 freep player has EVERY advantage coming out the gate.

About the only thing I can even come up with for creeps is maps, and those take time to acquire.

To the whole thread: I never once said, cheated, lvl 40 char, so keep your words in your mouths.

Originally Posted by Gillianrial

You forgot, when people on either side play well and/or win a fight, it's an exploit and they're cheating.

Dont forget zerging.

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

A lvl 75 freep player has EVERY advantage coming out the gate.

About the only thing I can even come up with for creeps is maps, and those take time to acquire.

To the whole thread: I never once said, cheated, lvl 40 char, so keep your words in your mouths.

Right, so they have R7 Audacity, a first age weapon and class item in addition to top tier jewlery? The first is impossible since they have never been in the moors before, the second and third can only be aquired through raiding at the highest level.

Again you try to argue with a flawed premise, it didn't work the first time and won't work if you try to press it again.

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

Dont forget zerging.

Generally killing 1 person with 12 is considered zerging, yes.

Originally Posted by NeedlesslyLargeRod

Right, so they have R7 Audacity, a first age weapon and class item in addition to top tier jewlery? The first is impossible since they have never been in the moors before, the second and third can only be aquired through raiding at the highest level.

Again you try to argue with a flawed premise, it didn't work the first time and won't work if you try to press it again.



Generally killing 1 person with 12 is considered zerging, yes.

I disagree with the First point. If they have a creep and worked on comms just for the freepside.. they could have audacity straight out of the gate on their freep. And both sides zerg this whole game is a zerg -Haz

Originally Posted by pibob314

Now, freeps are more powerful individually AND they still have much higher grouping potential. No-one is denying things are unbalanced.

While I will agree that on an individual level freeps have an advantage, group wise this doesn't seem to be the case.

Most people will put forth anecdotal evidence based on personal experience that creeps are at an extreme disadvantage when put up vs. a similar sized freep group.

My experiences have been vastly different, and while I too can offer nothing but anecdotal evidence I will say that should creeps with a proper group makeup play at the same or higher level than the freeps they are fighting, they should be able to kill them with even numbers.

I would say that creeps can offer a competitive fight, but very little fighting that occurs in the moors can be labeled as such.

Originally Posted by NeedlesslyLargeRod

Right, so they have R7 Audacity, a first age weapon and class item in addition to top tier jewlery? The first is impossible since they have never been in the moors before, the second and third can only be aquired through raiding at the highest level.

Again you try to argue with a flawed premise, it didn't work the first time and won't work if you try to press it again.



Generally killing 1 person with 12 is considered zerging, yes.

Even without those things, they have the advantage. You are comparing the two. The argument is not flawed, how you seem to be reading it is.

[QUOTE=NeedlesslyLargeRod;62443 93]While I will agree that on an individual level freeps have an advantage, group wise this doesn't seem to be the case.

QUOTE]

Please just &&&& now, clownshoes.

Originally Posted by Horrifying

I disagree with the First point. If they have a creep and worked on comms just for the freepside.. they could have audacity straight out of the gate on their freep. And both sides zerg this whole game is a zerg -Haz

If you read my post carefully you should have been able to surmise that I was operating under the assumption that the player had not been in the moors before.

However this raises another good point, audacity 7 can be achieved without ever having to fight another player.

Your second point unfortunately rings true, but this will be the case for any open pvp zone.

Originally Posted by NeedlesslyLargeRod

While I will agree that on an individual level freeps have an advantage, group wise this doesn't seem to be the case.

Most people will put forth anecdotal evidence based on personal experience that creeps are at an extreme disadvantage when put up vs. a similar sized freep group.

My experiences have been vastly different, and while I too can offer nothing but anecdotal evidence I will say that should creeps with a proper group makeup play at the same or higher level than the freeps they are fighting, they should be able to kill them with even numbers.

I would say that creeps can offer a competitive fight, but very little fighting that occurs in the moors can be labeled as such.

Raid v Raid isn't just about numbers though. You have to look at all the other variables. DPS v Healing, degree of crowd control available, leadership and group cohesiveness, effective focus fire. All of these are going to come into play. Now, ideally, they should all balance out in the long term. And, FOR THE MOST PART, even if it's not balanced, it can still work out to some good fights.

Now bring it back to the technique used by the Garnival. Well-led, cohesive, well-played creep groups of double the size have still been left with nothing to show for their efforts except frayed tempers and a view from the rez. And the technique is being adapted by others, as one might expect. These fights have stopped being good on creepside, quite simply because of the frustration and futility factors.

-pup-

Originally Posted by tykoshi

Raid v Raid isn't just about numbers though. You have to look at all the other variables. DPS v Healing, degree of crowd control available, leadership and group cohesiveness, effective focus fire. All of these are going to come into play. Now, ideally, they should all balance out in the long term. And, FOR THE MOST PART, even if it's not balanced, it can still work out to some good fights.

Now bring it back to the technique used by the Garnival. Well-led, cohesive, well-played creep groups of double the size have still been left with nothing to show for their efforts except frayed tempers and a view from the rez. And the technique is being adapted by others, as one might expect. These fights have stopped being good on creepside, quite simply because of the frustration and futility factors.

-pup-

I've had many good fights against the garnival with 1.5:1 odds. I've yet to beat them with 1.5:1 odds yes, but the groups I'm in usually don't have much audacity either(not to mention 3/4 of us were only r6-r8). Bottom line, a good group who has good coordination can defeat the garnival with a slight number advantage. You guys can claim creeps have so much coordination in them, but ANY creep raid I've been in I've yet to see people on creepside with even 1/4th of the constant talking and coordination that goes on during a garnival.

Originally Posted by NeedlesslyLargeRod

While I will agree that on an individual level freeps have an advantage, group wise this doesn't seem to be the case.

You have plenty of video available showing groups of freeps taking down creep group 3 or 4 times their size. Garny posted a couple and i even had the *honour* to be within one.

I havent seen the opposite yet, i.e. a small group of creep taking down a freep group 3-4 times their size...why? All good players are freeping while all the bad ones are creeping? Theres something more required here than just skill level to explain the situation...

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

Even without those things, they have the advantage. You are comparing the two. The argument is not flawed, how you seem to be reading it is.

Please elaborate, you explicitly stated that on entering the ettenmoors a freep player has every advantage over a creep player.

You failed to mention any specific advantages one may assume that you are unable to do so because there are none. However one that I've heard often is that creeps are lacking in their skills. With the addition of store bought skills to the ettenmoors, this isn't the case. Both freeps and creeps are given an allowance of turbine points, since both require a sub in order to enter the moors creeps will have a steady supply of turbine points available to them (the same as a freep). If the creep player is premium then most likely they would have bought the class they are currently playing and purchasing a few more turbine points for skills in order to be competitive will not (and should not) be above them.

In any case a quest geared freep will have a similar experience to an unranked creep. Since both have the option to PVE in order to gain their necessary competitive advantages I am declaring this premise flawed.

Originally Posted by tykoshi

Raid v Raid isn't just about numbers though. You have to look at all the other variables. DPS v Healing, degree of crowd control available, leadership and group cohesiveness, effective focus fire. All of these are going to come into play. Now, ideally, they should all balance out in the long term. And, FOR THE MOST PART, even if it's not balanced, it can still work out to some good fights.

Now bring it back to the technique used by the Garnival. Well-led, cohesive, well-played creep groups of double the size have still been left with nothing to show for their efforts except frayed tempers and a view from the rez. And the technique is being adapted by others, as one might expect. These fights have stopped being good on creepside, quite simply because of the frustration and futility factors.

-pup-

This leads back to my original post of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Now I believe you are operating under the premise that raids you join with plok are as you describe "Well-led, cohesive, well-played". Obviously based on your personal experience (anecdotal evidence) of where he has presumably wiped other freep raids of equal or larger sizes.

This I believe has lead to an illusory superiority as your "average" freeps often struggle in the proper creation and use of their characters. As such you are often facing poorly played freeps who don't know how to maximize the potential of their characters. Often you will see a raid with 6 minstrels, but all of them in warspeech. Or a captain using red traits in a raid with IDOME, or a hunter with some sort of rainbow build. It's completely within the players right to do any and all of this, however it drastically affects their performance in a negative manner.

This I would wager is why you are succesful vs. a pug freep group using a pug creep group. Since creeps have less character customizations available to them, and inherently less skills it is harder to build and/or play one in an incorrect manner.

Now we get to the heart of the manner. The Technique you are referencing is nothing more than freeps playing their characters correctly and at an acceptable level of competency. On top of this they know what the creeps will do in response to their group and how to counter it. In most games we call this "good play". I ask you how often in your "well-led" raids do you try anything other than trying to zerg down 1 target with overwhelming dps? How often are you called to debuff a target? How often are you asked to reposition? How often do the healers ask for peels? How often are players dispatched to fufill said peels? Do you use split dps? Do you often take time before a fight to plan out your attack? How effectively can you stick to a target?

Chances are the answer to these questions determines why you are meeting limited success.

As for other groups adopting these "tactics" yes other players will be playing their characters correctly, however I have yet to see a group as successful as what you refer to as the "Garnival".

For most of the years I've played LotRO I've rolled freepside. I may have dabbled creepside at times, but I was always a freep at heart. And about a month ago that changed (has it only been a month? seems longer). I followed Vinn to creepside, and decided that if I were to make the switch, I'd do so completely. So no freepside PVMP.

While I am a relative newbie to creepside, I hope you'll find some value in these observations:

1) I was surprised at just how much weaker creeps are than I would have thought as a freepside player. For example, my main is Ughlag, a warleader. As a minstrel I thought the combination of tank morale and mitigations, captain-ish buffs & awesome bubble, and healing would be amazing combination. In practice, it's much less impressive. Healing is based off of inductions. Through combat crits, I can remove the induction from my next heal, but that requires me to be mixing it up in combat. If I choose the stance that allows me to get off my yells more effectively (-50% cooldowns) I'm not in my healing stance so I'm effectively trading off being able to get heals off for the effectiveness of those heals. My only non-group heal is a single-target heal on a 4 second cooldown that has a longish induction, is easily setback, and heals for 750-1k to 2k on rare-ish crit. Warleaders don't effectively cross-heal in raids (my minstrel did this effortlessly). When fighting freeps alongside NPCs, the NPCs constantly attack the healers, making heals difficult or impossible to get off because of healing aggro which warleaders have no way to minimize, unlike my minstrel.

Compare that to my minstrel: I could get Bolster Courage down to a 1.6 second induction, that had no cooldown, could not be setback from damage, and healed from 2k to 5k or so. Creepside has nothing comparable.

2) I thought with 17k I'd be more survivable. In practice, I've found that's not really true. My minstrel had a better and more heals on the move, and a bubble that is nevertheless better than a bubble I can't use on myself, and a pair of feign deaths for when things got really close. On my warleader, I've 17k of morale and uh, well, 17k of morale. When I'm getting focus fired I have fewer options than I did on my minstrel.

3) But I've got the bubble! Okay, the bubble is pretty frickin' cool. 2 minute cooldown, 15 second duration of 90% damage reduction. Plus if I put it on Chili/Vinn he tends to cackle with glee which is pretty fun to hear. The bubble is pretty awesome for denying or delaying the other side to get their kill. On the other hand, as a minstrel I could pop Fellowship's Heart every ten minutes and change the whole course of a fight. The bubble saves an individual; FH saves a whole group.

4) In-combat AoE rez FTW! Five-minute cooldown. Kind of a bummer though not having an out-of-combat rez. Defilers got one of those though. When they trait it, it only has a 30 second cooldown, so yeah, still not that practical. I'd take my no cooldown out-of-combat rez and my ten-minute single in-combat rez any day.

So compared to freepside, I'm a far weaker healer than a captain, let alone an RK or minstrel, I am definitely less survivable than any freep wearing heavy or medium armor (except hunters - I'm way more survivable than a hunter), and do less damage than, well, any freep.

And I do have 7 audacity and all the skills I need (yeah, store-bought skills - I'm over 40 and have a real job - why not?).

Maybe I'm just not skilled at my class yet. That's possible I suppose. I've certainly played warleader for far less time than I played minstrel.

And sure, minstrels would more properly be compared to defilers, I suppose (my wife has one of those - Hoodooguru - so I'm learning a lot about their skills through her). And yeah, minstrels are seen as at or near the top of the power curve, so maybe that's an unfair comparison.

Two months ago, I would have thought that though freeps might have some advantages thanks to Turbine, skill is still, far and away, the dominant factor in freep v. creep matchups. I would have said that creepside was largely disorganized and if they would only group up more and focus fire more and heal more and have a better mix of classes in their groups their problems would melt away.

I don't think that any more.

What can I say? I've walked in the shoes of the other side and I understand where they're coming from.

You might consider trying on a pair of those shoes. But do it for a significant period of time. And no flipping back and forth from creepside to freepside depending on numbers and the colors on the map. Stick to one side. Maybe that will provide insight.

Or maybe not.

tl;dr --> After playing both sides, yeah, freeps are much more powerful than creeps. It's not just skill.

Originally Posted by NeedlesslyLargeRod

This leads back to my original post of the Dunning-Kruger effect. Now I believe you are operating under the premise that raids you join with plok are as you describe "Well-led, cohesive, well-played". Obviously based on your personal experience (anecdotal evidence) of where he has presumably wiped other freep raids of equal or larger sizes.

This I believe has lead to an illusory superiority as your "average" freeps often struggle in the proper creation and use of their characters. As such you are often facing poorly played freeps who don't know how to maximize the potential of their characters. Often you will see a raid with 6 minstrels, but all of them in warspeech. Or a captain using red traits in a raid with IDOME, or a hunter with some sort of rainbow build. It's completely within the players right to do any and all of this, however it drastically affects their performance in a negative manner.

This I would wager is why you are succesful vs. a pug freep group using a pug creep group. Since creeps have less character customizations available to them, and inherently less skills it is harder to build and/or play one in an incorrect manner.

Now we get to the heart of the manner. The Technique you are referencing is nothing more than freeps playing their characters correctly and at an acceptable level of competency. On top of this they know what the creeps will do in response to their group and how to counter it. In most games we call this "good play". I ask you how often in your "well-led" raids do you try anything other than trying to zerg down 1 target with overwhelming dps? How often are you called to debuff a target? How often are you asked to reposition? How often do the healers ask for peels? How often are players dispatched to fufill said peels? Do you use split dps? Do you often take time before a fight to plan out your attack? How effectively can you stick to a target?

Chances are the answer to these questions determines why you are meeting limited success.

As for other groups adopting these "tactics" yes other players will be playing their characters correctly, however I have yet to see a group as successful as what you refer to as the "Garnival".

First, you assume way too much. My definition of a "Well-led, cohesive, well-played" raid comes from having followed a number of raid leaders (eg. Maggotstew, Ugmog, Belosh). I've also led some myself. So, it's not limited to experience with just one raid leader. Nor is it predicated soley on the ability to wipe a raid of equal or larger size. However, almost all of those others left before the advent of U6 and audacity.

Now, I have clearly acknowledged that what we're seeing is a result of people playing their classes and communicating. I will acknowledge that pulling it all off takes more than a basic degree of skill and know-how. But the point you consistently miss - that has been acknowledged by a freep player I respect above most - is that this is a level only one side can attain.

Yes, we have tried mixing up the tactics, deploying differently against mutiple targets, using everything we have. I'm no slouch with my warg, many in these groups know their classes. None of us are noobs. And still you end with the garnival winning at least 80% of the encounters, and many of these against twice its numbers.

OK, it's not cheating since they aren't using anything that isn't supposed to be there. All they're doing is using something that Turbine - in its typical shortsightedness - put there. But it is pretty much EZ-mode trolling ala PvP when they know the odds are stacked so heavily in their favor.

-pup-

Originally Posted by crl13107

I was trying not to post on the forums anymore, but couldn't find a post about this anywhere, so I thought someone should say it. I see so much complaining about how one side if OP, or how something is unfair. I will admit freeps are a little more powerful than creeps from my experiences in the moors over the past five years. There are some cases where I see being 1 side, or the other has made the influence of a battle. The biggest factor in these things I see though is player skill, I always see people complaining about how in X vs. X fights how one side is broken. I could understand your complaining if you knew everyone in your raid is doing what they're suppose to. I'm not trying to say in any way that a certain group of people is bad, but I see complaints about freep dps ALL the time, but 50% of the battles i don't see defilers throw even 1 heal. Of course your raid is going to get demolished if your healers aren't healing(freep or creepside). There are some arguments that are valid about how certain things are overpowered. Although, if you are losing with more than 2:1 numbers, no matter what side you're on, i strongly suggest you try to evaluate what your raid is doing wrong instead of what the other raid is doing right. I've not seen 1 battle won by one side with 2:1 numbers, or more, without one side doing something extremely wrong like not following target assist, or not playing healing classes properly. This is why certain groups can roll you with more, they tell each other what they're doing wrong and help them to become a better player instead of focusing on how the other side is broken and just trying to zerg them.

Even though this thread will probably be filled with QQ of the worst abusers of what I've stated, but no matter what the case you know what I say is right, because without knowing your allies and helping them improve, you will never accomplish anything as a player.

~If this changes the way 1 player sees pvp, I will be happy because the moors will be a better place with even more competitive pvmp

Here is the real problem.....

Freep PvE and to a good extent PvP is kiddie pool. IE the vast majority of people don't really get much better. You don't get better by playing things on novice difficulty. This is the entirety of PvE. So when freeps first come to the moors a good number get schooled.

Why?

Cause creep side is so insanely hard, it is learning by the school of hard knocks. Even if you are a bad player, you get better than the average player. When you play things on difficult level, you get better...or you quit.

This evens out the fields as far as creep v freep balance, to some extent. If creeps were magically given the same skills as freeps; the freeps would get their back sides handed to them for a couple months. Then things would even out and you'd see some form of balance.

This isn't rocket science. Professional teams and players don't go to practice for 15 minutes do some yoga then quit for the day. They work their back sides off to get better. That just isn't how this game works. The very best of players overcome this with just pure natural talent, but that is why you see so few who can do it.

No offence to anyone, but this is just how things work in life. The reason freeps keep up and do well is the balance is so skewed class wise (with one exception) that the average freep can compete on novice difficulty. However, when the same freeps who never played creep come over guess what happens....they get their backsides handed to them left and right at first. Why? The game and classes aren't even close to being balanced. What happens when they go back to freepside, they kick the &&&& out of most people easily.

Play hard get better, play easy stay meh...Either way, the sides aren't ,weren't, and never will be balanced. They weren't meant to be. And yes, I have had EXTENSIVE play both sides and with every class (freep and creep), except guardian at max moors level. Freep side is way easier and way more powerful. Luckily, that is freep sides worst problem.

Observations from last night while I was "exploiting audacity" :

-I had one set of flies on me per fight when your group had 4-5 defilers.
-I was never hit with CODS.
-Garny was allowed to free-cast while some of your group peeled to chase a minstrel who was heal-spec'd and clearly capable of doing two things at once (moving while executing skills).
-Your group's target assist was not being utilized (I was our 6-man's healer, and had to disperse my heals across the group and was never really forced to concentrate heals on one person for long).
-Every warg that was glued to me freely allowed me to kite them through Sticky Gourd over and over...fun fact: that makes you die.

There was ONE solid play in which I thought "whoa, adapting?!," and that was when Garny was simultaneously locked down by a warg and hit with blight. Unfortunately, it was dispensed with and only occurred after your group had lost too many numbers.

I hope that at least half of these bullets are taken into consideration. Frankly, full-audacity creeps are potent and a proper group of 6 can be a force to be reckoned with if their skills are fully utilized.

V/R
Someone that wears full PvP gear in a PvP zone.

Originally Posted by NeedlesslyLargeRod

Your attitude and misconceptions are perfect examples of everything wrong in the moors. If you get outplayed then your opponents must be overpowered. The simple truth is that you got outskilled.

Your last comment is quite amusing, seeing as you (and many whom you play with) define pvp as "massive point gain". You may deny it, but the fact remains that you will call out a "good" fight as one where you make tons of points by going up against disorganized freeps with poor gear that lack basic competence.

This is true for both sides, and the reason as to why raids and solo zergs are the preferred form of play for both freeps and creeps.

This is one of the most laughable things I have seen you, an invisible poster say. First off, I do not call any fight where I lose being hit by OP classes. I lose and win fights in the moors, and most frankly have been enjoyable. I have and still call a good fight any fight where WIN OR LOSE both sides enjoy the battle. Infamy does not matter that much to me, stars and ranking, is nothing more then pretty garnish on a paper doll. I am in the moors, night after night looking for Good fights, those few and far between battles that cause a surge of adrenalin.

Now sir, seeing that you do not live in my head, it may make you look a wee bit brighter if you cease speaking as to what I do and do not look for in PVP.

Oh and, how about posting your name to go along with your opinions.

Originally Posted by tykoshi

OK, it's not cheating since they aren't using anything that isn't supposed to be there. All they're doing is using something that Turbine - in its typical shortsightedness - put there. But it is pretty much EZ-mode trolling ala PvP when they know the odds are stacked so heavily in their favor.

-pup-

Ok so let me see if I have this right:
- It's trolling to participate in a fellowship of 5-6 players and fight at least double (and usually far more) in every fight. Because this is what they do.
- It's EZ mode and requires no skill to support, heal, etc. in this fellowhip while fighting these huge numbers.
- It's not exactly cheating.

Interesting.

is it an exploit?....i dont know... is it an issue of imbalance of classes i would think so. The facts are yesterday for an example we had est 18 creeps give or take and i have raided with all of them and maybe 1 or 2 werent experienced players but theres was at least twice the amount of viable creeps in that raid yesterday. Did we even kill one of them? no we did not. Was it the lack of flies? not sure. Focus fire? i would like to say not been raided with these ppl before and never had a problem was more switching of targets then usual. Would hate to say what garny does as "broken mechanic" because it seems to work greatly for them lol. i think it showcases the imbalance that can occur when top geared and skilled fellowship can do against a foe of greater numbers which to me this game is blatantly designed that way. I think they could be beaten but the focus and timing u would need would be perfect i imagine an increase of reavers with disarm and gutpunch timed perfectly could make the difference but that would have to be planned to perfection and be terrible hard to perform without some kind of practice. Call it what u want though that playing style is very difficult to deal with and ive seen others duplicate the same tactics and if pvp isnt already dead might be on its way if everyone adopts that same play style and people frustration levels increase.

P.S. oh for those who say they can beat them so easily please do it then and make sure u get a vid of it actions speak louder than words.

Originally Posted by Aedon

Oh and, how about posting your name to go along with your opinions.

It's Dolemeer

Originally Posted by Rhasta_fareye

The facts are yesterday for an example we had est 18 creeps give or take and i have raided with all of them and maybe 1 or 2 werent experienced players but theres was at least twice the amount of viable creeps in that raid yesterday.

Experienced or not, there were multiple mistakes that ultimately did not sway the fight in your favor:

-Defilers not having any hots on them (woooo, focus fire invite!)
-People allowing me to kite them through sticky gourd repeatedly (death wish)
-Poor focus fire
-Lack of fly usage (if we run out of power, we will lose)

**Side note on the power thing, Garny rarely provides us power. Dolmir provides the group with lots of power and I generally self-sustain if left unpestered by flies.**

-No CoDS on the healer
-Allowing our induction DPS to free-cast

The "actions speak louder than words" thing is fantastic, but Jaiyne made a great point:

All successful teams look at what they did right to replicate it and look at what they did wrong to fix it.

Originally Posted by Hamlet_the_Dane

.

tl;dr -->.Maybe I'm just not skilled at my class yet. That's possible I suppose. I've certainly played warleader for far less time than I played minstrel.

maybe i can help out out on your wl maybe with traits or somthing any questions or anything else i would be glad to help=)

Originally Posted by quicksilver3

maybe i can help out out on your wl maybe with traits or somthing any questions or anything else i would be glad to help=)

Leveraging successful performers is a great idea.

Our team constantly critiques each other.

Jaiyne and I have constantly discussed minstrel optimization. SSD and I always used to discuss reaver optimization. If I wanted to play a warg better, I would talk to Shilow...etc.

Plok, as a rank 11 Battlemaster Guardian and someone who has been very successful in life, let me emphasize the importance of attention to detail in everything you do in your life. That may sound a little bit trite but I think if you think about it you can find examples in your life where looking back you wish you would have paid more attention to detail. You can reap the benefits of greater attention to detail in every aspect of your life, from your career to pvping in LotRO.

What does it mean to pay attention to detail as a leader (note: this applys to both leading creep raids and many places elsewhere)?

Well, ask yourselves these questions and I think you'll be able to consider where you may need improvement on your own, you leader you.

*Am I using my people to the best of their ability?
-In the moors, this means instructing the members of your raid to use the appropriate skills whether they be damage, crowd control, debuffing or healing, etc.. Many people lose sight of the importance of debuffs, many of which are arguably OP if used correctly.

*How do I respond to adversity?
-Include well thought-out solutions to your existing problems in your future actions.
-You shouldn't avoid the challenges or look to assign blame, but work steadfastly at accomplishing your goals.

*Would I want to follow myself?
-You should always exude confidence and keep cool under pressure, in addition to upholding standards of fair play.

*Do you hold yourself to standards of leadership as well in addition to holding your subordinates to standards you've made for them?
-If not, you should. This doesn't just mean acting as good as your subordinates do, but holding yourself up as a model.

*Am I professional in my demeanor to both my coworkers and my competition?
-Everyone likes a gentleman.
-While you may be competing with others, you do not want to disgrace yourself or your own people by looking like a sore loser or petty by criticizing them in an unprofessional or untrue way.

I'm sure that when you've mastered leadership that small groups made up of 3-5 of players such as myself, Garny, Tim, Cake, Jaiyne, Strobe, Treelios and Probeard will give you no issues. Of course, you won't be able to fight us with even numbers, but I'm confident that once you've mastered the fundamentals of leadership in practice you will be able to take such groups down with about 12 or so creeps..

P.S.:

Borrowing the style from the ethics of Aristotle, I've created an analog of the virtues and vices depicting craftiness in LOTRO and MMO's in general

Deficient in Craftiness: Noobery
Excessive in Craftiness: Exploiting
Balanced in Craftiness: Menace Status

The "Garnival" as you call it has achieved the balance of Menace Status when it comes to using audacity sets. Don't take my word for it, ask Turbine. The set bonuses are not a bug, and neither is the audacity rating and its effects, which were featured in a recent update to the system. Something that is WAI, by definition, cannot be exploiting.

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

Until things like the open and direct exploitation of audacity by groups like the garnival is fixed in the moors, I don't wanna hear shyt from anyone.

Sorry to say, but you're about to hear quite a bit of it. So, here goes:

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

When my groups are togther people are doing their jobs or they will not be asked back. When 18 creeps can't take down 6 freeps, the OP imbalances you are crying about are just bothersome little fleas.

Then you should be running solo. If you're getting drilled by teams 1/3 your size, the odds are NONE of you are doing your jobs.

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

What groups like this do is blatantly exploit the 30% damage reduction with certain buffs and passive skills making them all but unkillable. So the creeps surely know what imabalance is, I assure you.

Now's your chance to detail what the exact mechanic of the exploit really is. I've yet to hear it. Maybe some of your group members cried "foul" because of the beat down and couldn't come up with anything other then "exploiters". It's tough to swallow that pill, as I'm sure you already know by your actions.

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

I dont remember seeing my raid in may of those epeen videos he posts. As I said people in my raid are doing their jobs.

Again, no, they are not. They are massing numbers to cover up flaws in talent.

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

What you are proving is the system is irretrievably broken, anyone knowingly playing in said manner is exploiting the system to win by any means available to them. This was not a workable mechanic pre audacity and yhey and you know that.

What you are showing is a direct lack of humilty, nothing less.

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

2 or 3? Against that ezmode squad its 4 or 5. 6 and 7k heals, /faceroll

If WL had 5k heal freeps would have a stoke and flip out on Dev foum til it was gone.

So is the reason you were beaten by 1/3rd your numbers an audacity "exploit" (considering you logged over and called Jaiyne an exploiter lulz) or the fact minstrels have higher (perceived) crit heals?

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

The simple fact that 7k heals do and can happen is sickening. You know what I mean, exactly what I mean. Even 4k instant heals is beyond the redonkulous. Keep pveing guys.

Are you forgetting how sickening your WL's being so durable are? You want your healers to do more healing, get them to trait heals instead of tanking.

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

All you are doing in the moors is daily quests on your way to herodom. Im just waiting to leave.

As has been constantly demonstrated, we all know you're waiting for the competition to leave before rescuing all of creepdom by rolling outnumbered opposition.

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

Have never seen a creep heal that big and trust me I been hit with plenty of heals from some of the best WL. Big crit heals are in the 3k range. I play a BA and since the heal was nerfed to hell you are lucky to get a 3500 out of it and it no longer crits. At least I have not seen it crit.

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

If you do not see how badly these game mechanics are broke, no amount of explanation will solve that problem for you. Exploiting does not only mean to cheat. It means to use every advantage afforded to you to win, no matter how broken or imbalanced as well. And that IS what that group does.

Prove it. People have asked but you continue to remain silent on the means of any exploit.

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

exploit - use or manipulate to one's advantage

So, using that definiton, every freep should NOT do anything help themselves. No heals, no attacks. nothing. I'd like to see where you got that definition. Ha!

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

Please tell me one instance where a creep player is at the advantage just by being a creep player.

I can name a whole gang of them for freeps.

A) Maybe they have a whole host of firiends to play with whereas the freep doesn't? Maybe?
B) Maybe the creep has better leadership?
C) Maybe the creep has more experience?

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

How is that JUST BEING a creep player? I guess they come out of grams r7 audcaity and loaded with skills.

Nope, but they can roll out with numbers just as easily as a freep player can, probably much easier.

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

You are correct on one front, I have zero respect for freep players, especially ones who group up to make it a comedy act.

You do realize that what you do on crepside and what you just said there makes you somewhat of a Hyprocrit right? I know I lost all respect for you the night I flipped over and told you what I thought of your actions.

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

I fight no win situations constantly just being on creepside. I am flattered you took the time to type out your story too.

Can you just stop the pitty patty cryfest you've got going on here? Here's one suggestion, get better. You've already got it made as it is because even if you lose you can always pull out the "other side is OP" card and now you're lowering your self respect and the esteem of others by crying "exploiter".

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

You can do whatever you like. I will not however put any number of players against the unwinable EZmode mechanics you are employing in that grp. Farm away within the confines of an all but unkillable group.

Oh we all know you'll just sit in grams anyway. This is NOT news.

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

Dont forget zerging.

As the current king of creepside zerging, I'm finding it difficult to keep my dinner down because you have the nerve to type that.

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

Please just &&&& now, clownshoes.

Have you looked in the mirror lately? Just wondering. You may be shocked by what you see.

The "actions speak louder than words" thing is fantastic, but Jaiyne made a great point:

yes she did and what i said wasnt a shot at her at all. Ive heard the same from several other people saying how to do it but yet i havent seen it done thats all. Matter of fact Jaynie one of the few ppl i see on the forums that make coherent arguments and points of discussion. And this problem is not "garny" specific there are others on this server and other servers as well (my old main is on crickhollow) who adapt the same playstyle and the competition is having equal problems encountering it. If theres isnt a problem with balance and class makeup then are we to say the freep players are just that much more skilled and efficient then creeps?? unfortunately i might have to agree only because the time invested in getting a level 75 freep with all that glitters is immense compared to getting a creep to rank 7 with aud 7 (took me 26 days on reaver + the maps). Just seems like freepside are the only ones who have the solutions but not the ability to do it and creepside i guess have the ability but lack the solutions? Problem is it gets terrible demoralizing when you encounter a fight like that to no avail and trust me i love challenges thats why i play games that are hard (also reason i CHOSE to level a reaver) but if similar people play a similar way to similar results then what are the chances of creeps regardless of ffing or anything else to do about it. i dont consider it "broken mechanic" but i do consider it to be nearly impossible to beat even if u cant kill anything either. To be honest that fight to me was a stalemate till we decided to bail then people started dying. but as i said before i do think its beatable but the precisely timed actions and cohesiveness you would need does not exist really at all creepside and are both above and beyond my capabilities and most others i would presume.

Originally Posted by oninoakuma

It's Dolemeer

*Facepaw*
I should have known.

These have always been my favorite discussions, because basically everyone is right and no one will listen to the other sides' arguments.


But what everyone seems to disregards is this:

Creeps were intended to be lesser than Freeps. This was true at launch and seems to hold true today. If you play a creep, get used to it because that is how it is an how it will always be. A lot of my groups played creepside for tha reason.

If there is a mechanic issue: then use different avenues to bring it to light to the Devs. Make sure it is not a rant, they will chose what to do with it if anything.

Do not bash a player for using said mechanics: Nothing upset me more in this game when a freep would hold back and not use certain skills or mechanics. It always seemed like a false win to me.

Yes there are certain mechanics that seem OP, we have had these on both sides since launch as well. BUT....we always found away to pull a win or 2 out of 10 against those odds. You need to be more creative with it and think out ofthe box.

SHut up and fight I say and remember this: when you win a fight you are OP, when you lose you are a skill-less hack. So there really is no pressure to any fight out there. No risk, no real reward. so go out and have fun, you win some, you lose some. That will always hold true regardless of who is playing and which mechanis is currently broken.


P.S. you are all boring and your arguments are pretty lame.

/bash away, I am bored. Hockey is over and PFGrumpy isn't around to goad me that I am aware of.