Ok so let me see if I have this right:
- It's trolling to participate in a fellowship of 5-6 players and fight at least double (and usually far more) in every fight. Because this is what they do.
- It's EZ mode and requires no skill to support, heal, etc. in this fellowhip while fighting these huge numbers.
- It's not exactly cheating.
Interesting.
You can play with my words all ya want, but keep 'em in the context of my entire argument. I've acknowledged the skill and coordination it takes...more than once.
-pup-
as long is all we do is complain nothing will ever change creepside...freeps are the devs babies..truth is truth..ultimately the only way to effectively change anything in my opinion is to just dont log in on your creeps..let the freeps find an empty map and when they get there fill of pve and have no creeps to kill the devs will take notice...so just dont log in your creep..work on a freep alt,take a break.go outside.spend time with families...many things to do..so flame away I can take it lol
...
Then you should be running solo. If you're getting drilled by teams 1/3 your size, the odds are NONE of you are doing your jobs.
Really? so all people in his raid are just that bad eh? doesn't that sound almost statistically impossible?
Originally Posted by leekofthewood
Now's your chance to detail what the exact mechanic of the exploit really is. I've yet to hear it. Maybe some of your group members cried "foul" because of the beat down and couldn't come up with anything other then "exploiters". It's tough to swallow that pill, as I'm sure you already know by your actions.
I agree with you, I wouldn't consider it an exploit. It's just people taking advantage of skill changes made by turbine to please their player base (PvErs), changes which made possible something that they weren't able to accomplish before without those skill mechanic changes. They sure are showing off and making videos about what they can do, but I don't think it's an exploit either. (not being sarcastic btw)
Originally Posted by leekofthewood
Again, no, they are not. They are massing numbers to cover up flaws in talent.
Too much humility in that sentence.
Originally Posted by leekofthewood
What you are showing is a direct lack of humilty, nothing less.
I didn't see this coming....
Originally Posted by leekofthewood
So is the reason you were beaten by 1/3rd your numbers an audacity "exploit" (considering you logged over and called Jaiyne an exploiter lulz) or the fact minstrels have higher (perceived) crit heals?
I agree, that's not exploiting. Though, that doesn't mean minstrels are not almost as strong as Gandalf the White.
Originally Posted by leekofthewood
Are you forgetting how sickening your WL's being so durable are? You want your healers to do more healing, get them to trait heals instead of tanking.
Light armor is misleading Stat my old ally/enemy, test the dummies at grams and check for yourself what the really mitigation difference is between armor types. Also if you thought WL durability was sickening, imagine a WL that can heal for 2k average which each heal, and its heal induction taken down to 0.5 seconds. In other words, let me introduce you to today's minstrels
Originally Posted by leekofthewood
As has been constantly demonstrated, we all know you're waiting for the competition to leave before rescuing all of creepdom by rolling outnumbered opposition.
So what should he do instead? not attack freeps he finds with this raid after being farmed by freeps earlier that same day/night? What would you do in his place?
Originally Posted by leekofthewood
So, using that definiton, every freep should NOT do anything help themselves. No heals, no attacks. nothing. I'd like to see where you got that definition. Ha!
I agree, doesn't make sense at all, but you can apply the same logic when he is out with his raid, why shouldn't he kill freeps in his way?
Originally Posted by leekofthewood
A) Maybe they have a whole host of firiends to play with whereas the freep doesn't? Maybe?
B) Maybe the creep has better leadership?
C) Maybe the creep has more experience?
I apologize this quote, I wish the forums had a better and simpler way to pull prior quotes. Experience and leadership should help, but they can only do so much when the balance gap widens the moment the strongest classes show up.
Originally Posted by leekofthewood
Nope, but they can roll out with numbers just as easily as a freep player can, probably much easier.
Why would it easier to roll out with numbers on creepside? Sounds like a biased comment to me, or is there logic behind that statement?
Originally Posted by leekofthewood
Can you just stop the pitty patty cryfest you've got going on here? Here's one suggestion, get better. You've already got it made as it is because even if you lose you can always pull out the "other side is OP" card and now you're lowering your self respect and the esteem of others by crying "exploiter".
Where is the humility you mentioned earlier when you say get better? by saying that your implying that he, along with all the other creeps that bring up the issue of imbalance, have lesser abilities than our freep counter parts. Why would players one side be more skilled than the others? cheap mouse and keyboard for creep players?
Hey maybe people on freepside are right, maybe it's just that we suck on this side. I myself can't seem to outdps freepside healing so I might be doing something wrong, maybe I need to get better and try different trait builds, which I already did, but I'm sure it's something I'm doing wrong and has nothing to do with outdated creep skills, traits and builds system.
The bottom line is that most of my targets get away, and most of my enemies can easily kill me not matter what rank they are nor how much experience they have in the moors as long as they are using one of those Freep Key Classes.
I wonder though if this is the case, does that mean that most hunters and Captains players that I find solo suck too? cause they seem to be the only freep classes I can effectively kill without breaking a sweat, really no challenge at all if I use my evade and perma slow captains? does that mean they have to get better too? Could it be that it has nothing to do with game mechanics? I'm far from killing them as fast as "the better players" using those other-freep classes can kill me, but I'm sure that just means that those freep players are more skilled.
I won't tell you that all freep classes are OP, there are still a couple that are at a disadvantage against specific creep classes in a solo fight; I do think that wargs as a stealth class that chooses their fights, has plenty of tools to avoid being slaughtered and be effective at killing and running; however, the balance issue shows up when you approach the fights in a different was than a warg-pack would. The moment you engage a group with some of those really Strong Freep classes, you realize you don't have a chance at outdpsing their healing, or outlasting their survival skills.
You might say I'm just QQing, my answer to that is play creepside (not freeping, no wargs/warpack) for a about a month during prime time, and then tell me what you think.
Last edited by Forza; Jun 21 2012 at 03:55 AM.
Nandir - Caradhraz - Alundil - and others
Burzumgoth - Nardur - Zhugash - and others
Freep PvE and to a good extent PvP is kiddie pool. IE the vast majority of people don't really get much better. You don't get better by playing things on novice difficulty. This is the entirety of PvE. So when freeps first come to the moors a good number get schooled.
Why?
Cause creep side is so insanely hard, it is learning by the school of hard knocks. Even if you are a bad player, you get better than the average player. When you play things on difficult level, you get better...or you quit.
This evens out the fields as far as creep v freep balance, to some extent. If creeps were magically given the same skills as freeps; the freeps would get their back sides handed to them for a couple months. Then things would even out and you'd see some form of balance.
This isn't rocket science. Professional teams and players don't go to practice for 15 minutes do some yoga then quit for the day. They work their back sides off to get better. That just isn't how this game works. The very best of players overcome this with just pure natural talent, but that is why you see so few who can do it.
No offence to anyone, but this is just how things work in life. The reason freeps keep up and do well is the balance is so skewed class wise (with one exception) that the average freep can compete on novice difficulty. However, when the same freeps who never played creep come over guess what happens....they get their backsides handed to them left and right at first. Why? The game and classes aren't even close to being balanced. What happens when they go back to freepside, they kick the &&&& out of most people easily.
Play hard get better, play easy stay meh...Either way, the sides aren't ,weren't, and never will be balanced. They weren't meant to be. And yes, I have had EXTENSIVE play both sides and with every class (freep and creep), except guardian at max moors level. Freep side is way easier and way more powerful. Luckily, that is freep sides worst problem.
I find this statement hard to examine. Of course creeps are going to gain skill quicker than freeps because of the fact that they are gimped off the start. On the other hand, freeps who make it to end game level are forced to make themselves communicate as a whole because if one person isn't doing their job it is a guaranteed wipe. Creeps are never given a situation where the only way out is to pick it up as a team and push together to become better players. This is why most freepside groups who play creepside every now and again are usually the most dominate force of creeps out.
Also if you thought WL durability was sickening, imagine a WL that can heal for 2k average which each heal, and its heal induction taken down to 0.5 seconds. In other words, let me introduce you to today's minstrels
By 0.5 second induction, I imagine you are talking about traited Raise the Spirit.
For that to be sustainable, you need a major power feed and no flies on you (it is in no way power efficient). Personally, I don't trait it.
Furthermore, in what scenario do you see it *averaging* 2k? Bolster Courage definitely averages 2k, but RtS? No...no it doesn't.
I'm counting down the seconds, hours, and days. And you might not want to go mentioning people's names on the forums and then complain about when someone else does it. Just sayin'.
And I never thought I'd say this but.. my opinions of both Tree and Cal have just skyrocketed hahahaha.
I'm glad people are starting to realize what I've been saying for awhile now too. It's hilarious to see that happening.
Go forth and learn how to RvR or 2RvR. Or just wait until Chili does and then learn from him.
By 0.5 second induction, I imagine you are talking about traited Raise the Spirit.
For that to be sustainable, you need a major power feed and no flies on you (it is in no way power efficient). Personally, I don't trait it.
Furthermore, in what scenario do you see it *averaging* 2k? Bolster Courage definitely averages 2k, but RtS? No...no it doesn't.
I wasn't necessarily describing a specific Minstrel skill, what I'm referring here to is the end result, a healer that mitigates a ton of damage and heals for a lot with little chance of being interrupted between heals, btw this is a good example on how minstrels have gotten their skill, traits, etc changed to reduce their weaknesses in PvE, something that has been going on with most freep class and it's the core of balance gap between specific classes and their roles between creepside and freepside.
If that still doesn't feel right for you, then let me use another example:
- Give WLs a trait to take away setbacks from damage on their main healing skill, but wait a second.... this still wouldn't be enough because of the balance gap, so....
- we would need to also mirror creep interrupts and induction increasing debuffs and their mechanisms for usage, and give that to freeps (no more PvE spammable interrupts) to interrupt WLs heals, but again to make it fair...
- we would also need to reduce WL morale by 8k, as the freep critical multipliers and damage output would also need to be put at the same level as creeps for that environment to be right, so those 4.5k, 5k hits will do now about 1k damage on light armor, so about 790 damage on WLs
Wouldn't playing creepside without switching to freepside for some time, and using their healer counter parts be an easier way to test all of this? Why don't you give it a try too Baslion instead of just arguing about what the skill says on paper, and actually test it in a regular freep/creep battle?
P.S. I want to reiterate that creeps can still kill some freep classes without much difficulty, so yeah creeps can still get easy kills, or zerg freep that happen to be solo, duo, trio and get easy points. The point of my posts is to try to make these freeps that happen to use these really strong classes, and keep telling creeps on the forums how creeps complaining suck and should get better at playing their class, to actually look at the scenario with without a biased perspective, and realize that there is more to the equation than just player abilities.
Last edited by Forza; Jun 21 2012 at 11:52 AM.
Nandir - Caradhraz - Alundil - and others
Burzumgoth - Nardur - Zhugash - and others
Wouldn't playing creepside without switching to freepside for some time, and using their healer counter parts be an easier way to test all of this? Why don't you give it a try too Baslion instead of just arguing about what the skill says on paper, and actually test it in a regular freep/creep battle?
P.S. I want to reiterate that creeps can still kill some freep classes without much difficulty, so yeah creeps can still get easy kills, or zerg freep that happen to be solo, duo, trio and get easy points. The point of my posts is to try to make these freeps that happen to use these really strong classes, and keep telling creeps on the forums how creeps complaining suck and should get better at playing their class, to actually look at the scenario with without a biased perspective, and realize that there is more to the equation than just player abilities.
Nandir - I don't think anyone would ever say freep classes don't scale better when grouped than creeps do. In addition, I have been present at several - definitely not all - of these fights, and I can say a couple things about them:
- The creeps could have - and should have IMO - killed us each time. Or at least made us withdraw. We're talking 3 times our numbers on several occasions with enough defilers to literally drain power in less than 30 seconds, likely a lot sooner than that even. I briefly played last night in a fellowship and the mass of creeps at TA were able to do this in about 15 seconds.
- I personally don't believe my opponents are less skilled generally - I think they're sometimes not changing tactics to win or even stopping to discuss how to switch things up. Tactics do not include just getting more numbers, though. More numbers are just the default response to everything and often do nothing but increase the need to seriously micromanage the fight (not to mention, increase the body count). The knee jerk reaction now apparently is to call us exploiters.
From my perspective, I reacted to being called an exploiter. That's unfounded and still hasn't been answered. I doubt it will be.
Lastly, when playing more steadily on creepside, I don't really know another group of freeps that play in these tight, small groups - with a challenging balance of classes. It will be hard to test, IMO, simply because they don't really exist beyond this one. I'm working on audacity for my creeps, but I'm really not sure what I'll be fighting when they're at 7 audacity *shrug*
♦ R13 Minstrel ♦ Guardians of the Dagorlad ♦ Jaiyne ♦
i'm counting down the seconds, hours, and days. And you might not want to go mentioning people's names on the forums and then complain about when someone else does it. Just sayin'.
And i never thought i'd say this but.. My opinions of both tree and cal have just skyrocketed hahahaha.
I'm glad people are starting to realize what i've been saying for awhile now too. It's hilarious to see that happening.
Go forth and learn how to rvr or 2rvr. Or just wait until chili does and then learn from him.
So I now know how to give Leek a stroke. That's good information to have. Even though you know what I do on the forum for a reason it still makes for some positively entertaining reading.
Jaknee: Plok said Expolit and my name almost together directly to me like.........WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Leaky: What! I shall lauch a wall of text filled with misconceptions and lies of truth that will send him into the depths of mount doom forever!
Jaknee: My hero.
Last edited by oninoakuma; Jun 21 2012 at 01:54 PM.
"The freeps largeness disappears when they see Plok's largeness"
I think that the best way to solve this is have all the players that declare this to be "EZ-mode" form a 6 man group similar to this freeps side. Simply try to pull something similar off.
Better yet would be to get Garny to form a 6 man creep group to fight them, then we shall see how EZ-mode it really is.
I think that the best way to solve this is have all the players that declare this to be "EZ-mode" form a 6 man group similar to this freeps side. Simply try to pull something similar off.
Better yet would be to get Garny to form a 6 man creep group to fight them, then we shall see how EZ-mode it really is.
Since the Tyrants and CGs have been solo'ed, I say everything should be declared EZMODING and leave it at that.
Karathyn Thrace
Psycho Mania
Omnia illa et ante fiebant, omnia illa et ante fient
Ita dicimus omnes
First, you assume way too much. My definition of a "Well-led, cohesive, well-played" raid comes from having followed a number of raid leaders (eg. Maggotstew, Ugmog, Belosh). I've also led some myself. So, it's not limited to experience with just one raid leader. Nor is it predicated soley on the ability to wipe a raid of equal or larger size. However, almost all of those others left before the advent of U6 and audacity.
Now, I have clearly acknowledged that what we're seeing is a result of people playing their classes and communicating. I will acknowledge that pulling it all off takes more than a basic degree of skill and know-how. But the point you consistently miss - that has been acknowledged by a freep player I respect above most - is that this is a level only one side can attain.
Yes, we have tried mixing up the tactics, deploying differently against mutiple targets, using everything we have. I'm no slouch with my warg, many in these groups know their classes. None of us are noobs. And still you end with the garnival winning at least 80% of the encounters, and many of these against twice its numbers.
OK, it's not cheating since they aren't using anything that isn't supposed to be there. All they're doing is using something that Turbine - in its typical shortsightedness - put there. But it is pretty much EZ-mode trolling ala PvP when they know the odds are stacked so heavily in their favor.
-pup-
From being in a raid led by 2/3 of those leaders I can tell you with confidence that they were able to pull off anything resembling "Well-led, cohesive, or well-played". However they were able to take a pug raid group up against another pug raid group with success. This is partially due to the fact that with an open raid, only a limited amount of coordination can occur. However I can say with certainty that none of them had a CC/Debuff target assist for example. How can you claim that they are well-led, cohesive, well played, when their tactics are not evolved beyond: charge enemy, attack the same target, hope to win.
Moving on to the second paragraph of your post we see a clear and blatant lie. How am I supposed to believe, that you have acknowledged that this is nothing short of skill when you say in your last paragraph, and I quote "But it is pretty much EZ-mode trolling ala PvP when they know the odds are stacked so heavily in their favor."
The fights that the so called Garnival engages in is actually heavily stacked in the creeps favor. The longer a fight lasts with defiler flies in the equation, the more advantageous it becomes for the creeps. A small group like that has no answer to the flies. In fact freepside in general has no answer to flies outside of stacking multiple HoH captains, which does not work in any sort of sustained small group fighting.
A question I would like to pose is this: If a group of Garny's Calibre did not exist, would people be crying "imbalance". Or would you all be happy with solo zerging for easy kills(points)?
How is that JUST BEING a creep player? I guess they come out of grams r7 audcaity and loaded with skills.
Three thoughts.
1> Freeps start at L1. Don't complain about R7 Audacity, skills, or rank grinds creepside without considering this fact. L1, no legendaries, 2-3 skills, virtually no gear, no virtues, no nothing.
2> I think there's a critical difference in definitions going on here. One person is stating exploit = to use everything the classes can to maximize efficiency. The other is saying exploit = cheating by abusing a bug/clitch in the code. Let's try to understand this is a very loaded word.
3> Here's my take. Players who group in groups to cover certain roles to provide synergy of skills AND who use builds that maximize healing and "tankyness" are not cheating. What they are doing though is a HUGE force multiplier compared to 2Xs their numbers in a pug with builds that are suboptimal for that style of engagement. (Note some builds are EXCESIVELY powerful in certain situations, but REALLY underpowered in others).
I think there ARE broken builds AND synergies...I am not convinced there are broken classes, or even skills (although I've said this before and I'll reiterate it now, there are PROBLEMATIC skills...those are the ones what lend themselves to being at the core of those broken synergies.)
The problem is due to the complex nature of freepside skills/builds there are FAR more of these "synergies" that can occur.
The reality is a lone visible red line champ is pretty solid...gear dependant, and cooldown dependant...but solid. But a blueline champ with healing and buff support? INSANE force far equal to many times his number.
This is where LotRO PvMP breaks down IMHO. There are very few "Freep" or "Creep" imbalances, but there ARE situational and synergistic imbalances that can be enormous.
I almost dropped a spear traited warden on my nub warg the other day...and he initiated combat, I had no hips, and no stuns fired on him. Just straight up dps and movement with sprint. So are wardens UP because a warg with 4 /played hours almost beat him?
But a shield traited warden can stand against several far more powerful wargs with very little exposure to death for an extended period of time...especially if they get their insignia off. So are wardens OP because they are so powerful?
Neither. There are certain warden skills/builds that are problematic and need to be looked at with how they work in the moors and how they're countered creepside.
The problem is Turbine has seemingly never really done this style of Case analysis. They need to recruit 100 or so VET players to test thousands of scenerios. Then look at the logs to determine where those break points are. But I honestly don't think they care enough to delve that deep.
Instead they'll throw some more dps or more morale at creeps and say yay, creeps are tougher. But it won't matter. Because the underlying issues won't be resloved.
And lets get this out there crystal clear...these issues exist on BOTH SIDES. There ARE plenty of situations and synergies that favor creepside. More favor freepside no doubt...but to ignore that this is more than "Freeps are OP" would never get any real solutions implemented.
IMHO anyhow.
Second Marshal Luc Brandenbuck ~Battlemaster~
Stalker's Enemy*Reaver's Enemy*Blackarrow's Enemy*Warleader-Foe*Weaver's Enemy*Defiler-Foe Champion:'The only thing our opponents can do that we care about is die.'-Graalx2
Really? so all people in his raid are just that bad eh? doesn't that sound almost statistically impossible?
If either side is getting beaten by groups 1/3rd their side, with a minimum of a group on one side, then yes, I say with all sincereity tht hardly any of those creeps were doing their jobs. Think about this, if you take only 3-4 creep players who were thinking on a higher level and not just button mashing that group would have wiped. Read Baslion's description of all the wargs running back and forth through tar for an example of single minded goals.
Originally Posted by Forza
I agree, that's not exploiting. Though, that doesn't mean minstrels are not almost as strong as Gandalf the White.
A bit exterme a comparison there imo. lol!
Originally Posted by Forza
Light armor is misleading Stat my old ally/enemy, test the dummies at grams and check for yourself what the really mitigation difference is between armor types. Also if you thought WL durability was sickening, imagine a WL that can heal for 2k average which each heal, and its heal induction taken down to 0.5 seconds. In other words, let me introduce you to today's minstrels
There's really no need to point out a minstrel's abilities to me. After all, Jaiyne is sitting no less than three feet from me as I type this.
Originally Posted by Forza
So what should he do instead? not attack freeps he finds with this raid after being farmed by freeps earlier that same day/night? What would you do in his place?
This reference puzzles me a bit. Plok said, the definition of explot was to use something to y our advantage or to manipulate. By webster's definition that may be true. However, that definition greatly varies from the one used in mmo's.
As for what I would do and what I would not do, well I think I've given quite enough time and direction to both freep and creep raids over the years that you, of all people, should know what I would do.
Originally Posted by Forza
I apologize this quote, I wish the forums had a better and simpler way to pull prior quotes. Experience and leadership should help, but they can only do so much when the balance gap widens the moment the strongest classes show up.
You've actually hit the nail on the head here, even if you didnt realize it. You see, my opinion is that the audacity sytem is actually another gating mechanism similar to what we had with freep pve gear not all that long ago. Creepside flexibility used to be a key strength for their side. Now, audacity gates the flexibility of creep raids moreso than ever before. Not only that, but the farther the game goes along, the more people tend to stick to their mains and that goes to both sides. People simply dont have enough time to level and gear their freeps or rank up and get enough audacity for their creeps.
Originally Posted by Forza
Why would it easier to roll out with numbers on creepside? Sounds like a biased comment to me, or is there logic behind that statement?
The logic I've used here is simply experience. In today's creep environment, you have not only Plok leding raids, but you also have Vin leading raids. I can't honestly say who the "every night" freep leader currently is atm.
Originally Posted by Forza
Where is the humility you mentioned earlier when you say get better? by saying that your implying that he, along with all the other creeps that bring up the issue of imbalance, have lesser abilities than our freep counter parts. Why would players one side be more skilled than the others? cheap mouse and keyboard for creep players?
My humility honestly shouldn't be called into question here as I boasted about nothing. My signature says nothing about the size of my epeen being bigger than anyone else's. It states my rank and title and a quote I like.
I say get better because the general fact is, they need to get better. If you take the freep group in question, you'd be hard pressed to find just as talented a six man group of creep players. I say this because it's my general opinion that raiding makes you lazy as a player. When you're rolling with numbers instead of skill, you don't have to be as in tune with your class and it's skills because your flaws are masked by numbers.
Originally Posted by Forza
Hey maybe people on freepside are right, maybe it's just that we suck on this side. I myself can't seem to outdps freepside healing so I might be doing something wrong, maybe I need to get better and try different trait builds, which I already did, but I'm sure it's something I'm doing wrong and has nothing to do with outdated creep skills, traits and builds system.
What I think you're missing here is that it isn't just about you and your individual build or character makeup. That freep group runs togeter consistantly. They are beyond simply looking at themselves and are thinking on higher level. What can one class do for the group? What can the combinations of classes do for the group? What needs to be done in certain situations? When you take some of these instances into account, the thought process can actually go on indefinately. Players only get that feeling when they truly mesh as a group and don't need to be told by others what to do when it needs to be done, it just gets done. In contrast, a raid of creeps being led by one person calling ALL of the shots, sometimes with agendas overcoming logic, isn't nearly as effective as the prior.
Originally Posted by Forza
The bottom line is that most of my targets get away, and most of my enemies can easily kill me not matter what rank they are nor how much experience they have in the moors as long as they are using one of those Freep Key Classes.
As a soloist, that's the environment you've chosen and really have to deal with it's strengths and weaknesses. If what you're saying is indeed true, that it doesn't matter who the opposing player is, then it's definately became the low water mark for creepdise.
Originally Posted by Forza
I wonder though if this is the case, does that mean that most hunters and Captains players that I find solo suck too? cause they seem to be the only freep classes I can effectively kill without breaking a sweat, really no challenge at all if I use my evade and perma slow captains? does that mean they have to get better too? Could it be that it has nothing to do with game mechanics? I'm far from killing them as fast as "the better players" using those other-freep classes can kill me, but I'm sure that just means that those freep players are more skilled.
Yes, it means exactly that. Also, it may be the fact that you were once known as Captain Nandir and you know a captains skillset inside and out. That helps, alot. Slows are a captain's achillies heal and your Ba class has them in droves.
Originally Posted by Forza
I won't tell you that all freep classes are OP, there are still a couple that are at a disadvantage against specific creep classes in a solo fight; I do think that wargs as a stealth class that chooses their fights, has plenty of tools to avoid being slaughtered and be effective at killing and running; however, the balance issue shows up when you approach the fights in a different was than a warg-pack would. The moment you engage a group with some of those really Strong Freep classes, you realize you don't have a chance at outdpsing their healing, or outlasting their survival skills.
So in essence you're saying it's now ALL about the classes and zero to do with the actual players playing them? I find that hard to beleive and find it pretty disrepsctful to those freep players who are good at what they do and not just by being the class they play.
Originally Posted by Forza
You might say I'm just QQing, my answer to that is play creepside (not freeping, no wargs/warpack) for a about a month during prime time, and then tell me what you think.
You may be forgetting, but I've been there and done that. Necrosiz, Poundpup and Creepto have all given their fair share of time in the moors. Maybe not in today's moors, but in a time I honestly believe was just as rough for creeps, if not moreso, than today is.
Last edited by leekofthewood; Jun 21 2012 at 04:35 PM.
1> Freeps start at L1. Don't complain about R7 Audacity, skills, or rank grinds creepside without considering this fact. L1, no legendaries, 2-3 skills, virtually no gear, no virtues, no nothing.
Good point..exactly how many times have level 1 freeps been zerged while working on there toons?
Yes freeps do have one heck of a grind,but they can do it in relatively safety.
A newly created creep also has a huge grind ahead of them but there is one big difference
So I now know how to give Leek a stroke. That's good information to have. Even though you know what I do on the forum for a reason it still makes for some positively entertaining reading.
Jaknee: Plok said Expolit and my name almost together directly to me like.........WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Leaky: What! I shall lauch a wall of text filled with misconceptions and lies of truth that will send him into the depths of mount doom forever!
Jaknee: My hero.
Plok, you know I agree with many of the issues that are brought up regarding the moors, but I have to say, this was not called for. I find it refreshing when a man these days speaks up or runs to the defense of his lady. This is something all couples should do. And before I get my head bit off, no, I do not think a woman needs protecting. Most of the ladies I know, including my missus can stand up for themselves. But standing for one another, taking your partners side is what marriage is all about. You can bet your fold encrusted loin cloth I would have been as quick to rush and speak up for my wife.
Support is not only sweet or endearing to see in a couple. it is a mark of a good relationship. Anyways, that is my say on this. Now back to killing each other with words. I find it so much more rewarding then PVP.
Pouncival-Rank 13-Leader of the Pouncing Pwny
We Pounce Because We Care
1> Freeps start at L1. Don't complain about R7 Audacity, skills, or rank grinds creepside without considering this fact. L1, no legendaries, 2-3 skills, virtually no gear, no virtues, no nothing.
Good point..exactly how many times have level 1 freeps been zerged while working on there toons?
Yes freeps do have one heck of a grind,but they can do it in relatively safety.
A newly created creep also has a huge grind ahead of them but there is one big difference
What we need is a mirror plain where creeps level up in much the same manner that freeps do. Running quests for the great Eye, or whatever. Then when they hit level 50, with traits and skills, they can enter the moors for the first time. There should still be quests they can do out of the Moors to continue to level.
Strip keeps and most NPC's from the moors, they are not needed. Let the moors be about fighting and not questing. Or better yet, make a gated world to PVP that is open from in Angmar, and all through Moria, Dunland and Rohan. Bring the war to life in the only real manner it can be done justice. Open world PVP that is entered by choice, never forced on those who do not enjoy it.
Pouncival-Rank 13-Leader of the Pouncing Pwny
We Pounce Because We Care
Ok, enough about how everyone is leaving for GW2. I wish everyone who leaves for it the best of luck, but using that as an excuse to a conversation? LMFAO..... Is that suppose to be like the I'm rank 15 so I don't care what you say effect? Anyway, I figured I might as well give my opinion of GW2 in this statement. The pvp seems to be as competitive as you make it which is really pushing me to try out the game. I almost went with plok's crew to play with them just because i know they have a couple good players in the bunch that could really make for interesting pvp. Then, after talking to them for a couple hours, I find out they never intend to do competitive pvp and just want to do open world pvp which is why they're trying to recruit everyone like crazy so that they can just zerg guild wars pvp like they do here. What ever, i'll just play with the other skilled people in his tribe who want competitive pvp, but after talking to a couple of them i find out they're thinking about leaving because they want a competitive pvp environment as well and might end up leaving them. This made me leave this crew, because there is no way that I'm going to a different game with people who just want to create the same pvp as in Lotro. If i want lotro based pvp, i'll just stick with Lotro instead of wasting my time zerging people in a different game. So, imo lotro will be a very good break from lotro as long as you don't plan to just go zerg the map over and over 75% of the creeps leaving this game will be planning to do.
tl;dr? I'm not going with the creeps of landroval because they all want to do is landroval pvp on GW2 instead of all the possibilities of GW2 pvp. I hope you all enjoy your new map of landroval pvp
Not sure how many people still remember this, but way, way back in the day, when Turbine was trying to justify nerfing conjunctions (FMs) in PvE, the logic they used was that it gave "skilled" players an unfair advantage over others. That's right, according to the company making this game, being more skilled than someone else is apparently cheating. Something to think about.
That aside (no one cares about my outdated, un-funny jokes and references anyway), someone not being terrible, in spite of being an unusual occurence, is not an exploit. It has always been the case, in this game and in every other MMO I've ever played that the majority of people on any side are at best mediocre. When most of your time is spent fighting against mediocre or worse players, naturally switching it up and playing against someone notably better will be jarring. The thing is, most groups won't even bother to change things up or improve, but will instead run straight to the forums and complain. From way back in the day when Yargax would post page-long rants any time freeps accomplished anything, to Hotdog, to whoever else came after that in whatever order they were in. The names change, the arguments stay the same. In fact, I'm sure if the forums weren't pruned every few years, I could dig up a thread with some of the same people who posted here posting similar arguments about a mechanically different issue that boiled down to the same thing.
To be fair, I don't know what the hell a "Garnival" is, nor do I care. The principle seems to be a group that takes advantage of the brilliantly designed (everyone who knows me knows I LOVE audacity!) new mechanic and class synergy to beat larger groups of the other side who are used to bum-rushing a similarly sized, uncoordinated zerg and exchanging kills. Sort of similar to what would happen with uruk heal, or defilers, or multi-spawn hatchlings or web the earth when all of those first appeared. Why am I mostly mentioning creep things? Probably because I mostly played a creep during that time...or maybe I'm secretly biased towards a side I don't play in a game I'm no longer overly enthusiastic about. Who knows...better yet, who cares? More importantly, every rant inducing strategy that wasn't outright cheating (freeps on rocks and zone boundary invulnerability, I'm looking at you!) could be and eventually was countered. And if this can't be (or if you personally can't), just don't fight them. It's a small map, to be sure, but not so small that a group of 5 or 6 can dominate it and shut down PvP. I'd give it a shot myself, but the thought of grinding more audacity makes me want to cut myself...I'll just stick to slow, tedious PvE.
Does audacity favor freeps? Sure it does. Is it an awful mechanic overall? Probably. Does that mean taking advantage of it is cheating? Well...no more than taking advantage of things like last stand, dying rage, feign death, uruk heal, or the myriad of other things that have been called broken over the years was. The pendulum swings from side to side, as long as complaining continues (or as long as the game manages to not shut down...not entirely sure how long that'll last at this point), Turbine will keep heavy-handedly balancing one way then the other. This time next year, it'll be freeps whining on the forums, mark my words.
TL;DR: Being better than your opponent is cheating, everyone should go pick flowers instead, this community used to be more fun.
Disclaimer: For the past year or so, my main creep has been a warg. Apparently that invalidates my opinion. Thank you for your time.
Saelraen Feywind, Third Worst Champion on Landroval
Ok, enough about how everyone is leaving for GW2. I wish everyone who leaves for it the best of luck, but using that as an excuse to a conversation? LMFAO..... Is that suppose to be like the I'm rank 15 so I don't care what you say effect? Anyway, I figured I might as well give my opinion of GW2 in this statement. The pvp seems to be as competitive as you make it which is really pushing me to try out the game. I almost went with plok's crew to play with them just because i know they have a couple good players in the bunch that could really make for interesting pvp. Then, after talking to them for a couple hours, I find out they never intend to do competitive pvp and just want to do open world pvp which is why they're trying to recruit everyone like crazy so that they can just zerg guild wars pvp like they do here. What ever, i'll just play with the other skilled people in his tribe who want competitive pvp, but after talking to a couple of them i find out they're thinking about leaving because they want a competitive pvp environment as well and might end up leaving them. This made me leave this crew, because there is no way that I'm going to a different game with people who just want to create the same pvp as in Lotro. If i want lotro based pvp, i'll just stick with Lotro instead of wasting my time zerging people in a different game. So, imo lotro will be a very good break from lotro as long as you don't plan to just go zerg the map over and over 75% of the creeps leaving this game will be planning to do.
tl;dr? I'm not going with the creeps of landroval because they all want to do is landroval pvp on GW2 instead of all the possibilities of GW2 pvp.
Our group will indeed have Plok as our Guild's leader over in GW2 but we have others that are also part of the leadership of which I am one. I have no idea who you even are but all this &&&& about how you talked with us and were told that we do not want to do competitive PvP and only want to zerg WvW is just a complete lie. We do in fact want to do the competitive PvP, we just were not doing much of it during the BWE's because we were all having so much fun in WvW. Not myself or Gell or Plok or any of us have made any kind of choice as a group to not participate in that facet of the game in any way. We also do not in any way want to go and make GW2's PvP experiences more LoTRO-like by playing in some specific manner. Through our experiences in the BWE it has been acknowledged by all of us that zerging is a very in-effective technique in that game because in order to dominate the map you need to attack and defend on multiple fronts. During the BWE's we were a relatively small crew and we poked a lot of holes in multiple zerg's attacks by various means.
Plok, you know I agree with many of the issues that are brought up regarding the moors, but I have to say, this was not called for. I find it refreshing when a man these days speaks up or runs to the defense of his lady. This is something all couples should do. And before I get my head bit off, no, I do not think a woman needs protecting. Most of the ladies I know, including my missus can stand up for themselves. But standing for one another, taking your partners side is what marriage is all about. You can bet your fold encrusted loin cloth I would have been as quick to rush and speak up for my wife.
Support is not only sweet or endearing to see in a couple. it is a mark of a good relationship. Anyways, that is my say on this. Now back to killing each other with words. I find it so much more rewarding then PVP.
I still thought it ws funny, thats what trolling is all about pouncy.
"The freeps largeness disappears when they see Plok's largeness"
Ok, enough about how everyone is leaving for GW2. I wish everyone who leaves for it the best of luck, but using that as an excuse to a conversation? LMFAO..... Is that suppose to be like the I'm rank 15 so I don't care what you say effect? Anyway, I figured I might as well give my opinion of GW2 in this statement. The pvp seems to be as competitive as you make it which is really pushing me to try out the game. I almost went with plok's crew to play with them just because i know they have a couple good players in the bunch that could really make for interesting pvp. Then, after talking to them for a couple hours, I find out they never intend to do competitive pvp and just want to do open world pvp which is why they're trying to recruit everyone like crazy so that they can just zerg guild wars pvp like they do here. What ever, i'll just play with the other skilled people in his tribe who want competitive pvp, but after talking to a couple of them i find out they're thinking about leaving because they want a competitive pvp environment as well and might end up leaving them. This made me leave this crew, because there is no way that I'm going to a different game with people who just want to create the same pvp as in Lotro. If i want lotro based pvp, i'll just stick with Lotro instead of wasting my time zerging people in a different game. So, imo lotro will be a very good break from lotro as long as you don't plan to just go zerg the map over and over 75% of the creeps leaving this game will be planning to do.
tl;dr? I'm not going with the creeps of landroval because they all want to do is landroval pvp on GW2 instead of all the possibilities of GW2 pvp. I hope you all enjoy your new map of landroval pvp
We have a great community coming with us to GW2 , Yes Plok is our chosen leader, we all thought he would be Ideal to lead us through GW2 but there are plenty of us who pretty much founded this idea together to go together who are going to help with leadership with EVERY aspect of the game. Yes we are mainly PVP oriented but we have intent to spread out and enjoy ALL aspects of the game when it comes to either PVE groups , PVE Raids , Structured PVP and WvWvW PVP. As for the Beta weekends yes we did Mainly WvWvW to be able to enjoy the weekend together and experience the leveling up and sharing information about the characters and skills. that was the main goal to join up together. We have Multiple very experienced raid leaders in our core and we are molding well together , it showed when we dominated ( again in multiple fronts ) through all WvWvW .
We have no intentions to mass recruit whomever whenever , we never set that goal . We are taking with us strictly friends we play/raid together and personal friends that like to play together as a community. If we don`t know who you are ingame creepside or freepside ( yes there are freeps that are interested in coming with us and we know them well as friends ) then most likely you aren`t coming with us.
So far tho , im VERY pleased with the amount of interest of our friends coming with us , when i first introduced the idea to my friends i never would have thought that we would have all our friends come with us . and im very happy and glad that Plok took the position as leader. Im eager to see the launch date soon! We WILL be an impact in GW2.
Gell
What does not kill you makes you stronger....
Though that which kills you makes your mother stronger....
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Originally Posted by robc73usa
Pouncival-Rank 13-Leader of the Pouncing Pwny
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