Good question. Here's a very interesting article about fun from Colin Johanson, lead content designer for some other MMO. It's all about, fun. The paragraphs that hit me in the eye:
"The answer can be found in the mechanics and choices made in subscription-based MMOs, which keep customers actively playing by chasing something in the game through processes that take as long as possible. In other words, designers of traditional MMOs create content systems that take more time to keep people playing longer. If this is your business motivation and model so you keep getting paid, it makes sense and is an incredibly smart thing to do, and you need to support it.
When your game systems are designed to achieve the prime motivation of a subscription-based MMO, you run the risk of sacrificing quality to get as much content in as possible to fill that time. You get leveling systems that take insane amounts of grind to gain a level, loot drop systems that require doing a dungeon with a tiny chance the item you want can drop at the end, raid systems that need huge numbers of people online simultaneously to organize and play, thousands of wash/repeat item-collection or kill-mob quests or dailies with flavor text support, the best stat gear requiring crazy amounts of time to earn, etc.
But what if your business model isn’t based on a subscription? What if your content-design motivations aren’t driven by the need to create mechanics that keep people playing as long as possible? When looking at content design for Guild Wars 2, we’ve tried to ask the question: What if the development of the game was based on…wait for it…fun?"
While I disagree that the subscription-based model is the cause, the "grind = content" attitude is very ingrained in both MMO developers and players. ANet is talking pretty big about dismantling that concept, but it's yet to be seen how well they can put their (our?) money where their mouth is. From what I've read, it's sort of a mixed bag currently.
A factor that isn't mentioned there is that gamers--particularly good gamers--can chew through content far, far faster than any reasonable team can develop it.
A factor that isn't mentioned there is that gamers--particularly good gamers--can chew through content far, far faster than any reasonable team can develop it.
--W. H. Heydt
Old Used Programmer
Then there are players like me that don't ever want the game they enjoy playing to end, or in other words, they try to never actually get to endgame. For me, the best part of a game is how your character develops and what he/she acquires along the way(both skills and items) while exploring every nook, cranny and conversation in the game, not just racing to endgame content which in most mmos is raiding for equipment so you can raid some more, oh and of course bragging rights for having got there....
Unfortunately this "journey" kind of gameplay, in most current models, is less profitable for the stockholders because their developers haven't tapped into the ready and willing market for cosmetic choices and hobbies that allow said players to expand their game without taking away from those who prefer to hack and slash their way to the end so they can move on to the next "newly released" game, or penalizing those who are more patient and would rather take an even longer road to acquire those special items, albeit while paying a subscription fee to do so.
LoTRO has probably done as good a job at "tapping" as any, unfortunately they are doing so in a manner that is making their longtime subscribers question whether they've just become another wallet to be siphoned as quickly as possible, instead of the valued loyal member that they had previously been treated as.
When looking at content design for Guild Wars 2, we’ve tried to ask the question: What if the development of the game was based on…wait for it…fun?"
LOTRO is the only MMO I've played over the last 5 years where I have had fun for over a month so they must be doing something right.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
Civ II rules after all these years......
A factor that isn't mentioned there is that gamers--particularly good gamers--can chew through content far, far faster than any reasonable team can develop it.
Only if that content is disposable, one-time-use content. FFXI (and I'm sure other games, as well) has had dynamic content (example: Besieged) since early '06, and six years and 24 levels later it's still relevant to the playerbase and still draws hundreds of players each occurrence. That's just one event, though. Build an entire game around that concept and you can have an endless supply of something interesting to do without relying on rote repetition or artificial time sinks.
Turbine made a halfhearted attempt at adding dynamic content (Annuminas, Forochel), but quickly abandoned it when it became obvious that the playerbase would rather obsessively hump the Rift (for worthwhile gear) than do something fun and interesting (for what amounted to fugly cosmetic outfits). Go figure.
Only if that content is disposable, one-time-use content. FFXI (and I'm sure other games, as well) has had dynamic content (example: Besieged) since early '06, and six years and 24 levels later it's still relevant to the playerbase and still draws hundreds of players each occurrence. That's just one event, though. Build an entire game around that concept and you can have an endless supply of something interesting to do without relying on rote repetition or artificial time sinks.
Turbine made a halfhearted attempt at adding dynamic content (Annuminas, Forochel), but quickly abandoned it when it became obvious that the playerbase would rather obsessively hump the Rift (for worthwhile gear) than do something fun and interesting (for what amounted to fugly cosmetic outfits). Go figure.
Hey now, I liked the Annuminas heavy armor set at 50. I was rocking 4.4k morale at the end of SoA.
"Sam thinks it a queer place, but I think he likes it, too." - Frodo
"If you're in advertising or marketing, kill yourself." - Bill Hicks
None of that correlates to Lotro, where they have accelerated the pace you go through the game and leveling is so quick, you out-level a quest hub having done only a portion of the content (I couldn't even imagine it with VIP rest XP).
If you really want to learn about fun, read about Flow, a psychological explanation of what provides "fun", or the most joy.
You might be surprised at how closely Lotro (and the general MMO experience) fits that, particularly the challenge meeting the reward, losing yourself in the activity, etc. (Ever notice that easy piddling quests offer minimal reward, while the harder challenges offer more, ever wonder why? Now you know why simple festivals give fluff and hard instances give goodies. Now you know why there's a bigger carrot at the end of a long grind. And why grinds without carrots, virtue deeds for example, are generally detested.)
However none of that has to do with the subscription model. And since Lotro now has multiple subscription models (monthly subscribers, lifetimers, F2P, and people who do both, a hybrid), the generalizations of that article don't really apply. If anything, it frees them from those constraints.
They don't seek to keep people on the subscription path, they expect some churn, and instead continually draw in new folks--thereby negating the need to draw out the existing content. And it's working, as evidenced by their increasing how much XP folks get from level 50 onward a few updates ago.
"Sometimes survival comes down to not being hit. Actually, most times." -the chicken skill, Bob and Weave
If you really want to learn about fun, read about Flow, a psychological explanation of what provides "fun", or the most joy.
Neat stuff, but carrot-on-a-stick game design doesn't get me there. There's nothing intrinsically rewarding about simple, repetitive tasks (just ask any factory grunt), nothing challenging about "on farm" content, and nothing skillful about waiting for the RNG to roll in your favor. The reward at completion doesn't factor in; flow (as presented in that article, at least) is about the reward for participation, and there's precious little of that in traditional MMO design.
Also, that concept of flow has very little to do with "fun". Fun is entertainment; flow is engagement, and the two don't necessarily go hand-in-hand.
Only if that content is disposable, one-time-use content. FFXI (and I'm sure other games, as well) has had dynamic content (example: Besieged) since early '06, and six years and 24 levels later it's still relevant to the playerbase and still draws hundreds of players each occurrence. That's just one event, though. Build an entire game around that concept and you can have an endless supply of something interesting to do without relying on rote repetition or artificial time sinks..
I disagree.
I love Besieged and Campaign, and do them a lot as I like the free-form chaotic nature of unorganised 'group' activity (100 people killing Medusa is awesome ), however your idea that an entire game could be successfully built around such a concept think I flawed: if that's all there is to do then even 'dynamic' content like that (and let's be honest here, Besieged is pretty rigid in how it works, and the only really 'dynamic' aspects of Besieged and Campaign in the randonmess of the enounters) will become boring.
Also, the FFXI playerbase is still grinding gear in 2012 as it was in 2006, they're still grinding gil for relics, cruor (sp?) for AF3 in lolAbyssea, etc. Besieged, Campaign and one or two other game mechanics are simply entertaining diversions for brief periods between the grinding sessions.
GW2 will fail, I have no doubt, to bring about a significant new type of MMO. I'm not saying it will 'fail' as a game, by all accounts it has some features that players will enjoy and, after all, GW1 was a bit different from the more conventional MMO and did very well.
I've asked myself this question a lot when playing LotRO and for many of their systems I've come to the conclusion that it's not fun and that enjoyment couldn't have even been among their design objectives. For example I find it impossible to believe that anyone would really think people would enjoy picking flowers for an hour. Other examples include the way fishing and slayer deeds have been implemented but there are numerous other systems in this game that I simply cannot believe anyone designed to be fun or as anything other than the grind explained in the article.
I usually choose not participate in these activities as much as I can and I look forward to playing GW2 to see how much truth there is to their claim. From what I've seen in the beta weekends it certainly seems to have some truth.
-Esty
Did we need another Guild Wars 2 vs LOTRO thread? I mean, really? Did we? Is there anything left to say? Is anyone really going to change their mind?
Just because a Lead Developer says something in an interview doesn't mean GW2 is better. Ooooo! He said 'fun'! It must be fun then!
There are many different games to suit many different tastes. We are all well aware that GW2 is on its way and it's soooo big! Yup. And some of us, myself included, have already bought the game. This is the LOTRO forum. Not the Guild Wars 2 vs LOTRO forum. This is general discussion. About THIS game. Meaning the actual game. Like stuff in the game.
Well we had to have SOMETHING replace the SW hype. So I guess GW2 is the flavor of the quarter.
I have lost track of all the games that were going to destroy LotRO. So this will last a few more months until GW2 is released, then many will run off and play and after the cheap introduction sub fee period is gone, folks will be back as they have always done over the last 5 years.
Then a new XYZ game will be announces and we will get a new hype thread. LOL
One of the biggest annoyances I have with players is the belief in the following equation: something takes a long time = hard = fun.
This belief tends to lead to just throwing more monsters into a zone to fight through or run through or the grind where you need to get a bunch of stuff to succeed. Yet, these things don't neccessarily make something hard or fun. Witness the criticism over Moria. Nothing in Moria (out of the instances) was hard, it just took a while to get somewhere because of so many individually easy fights that didn't add up to anything hard either, even if you pulled large groups. Yet people still seemed to equate lots of easy mobs slowing down your movement speed to hard and fun.
Hard is actually having to break out of your standard button mashing button sequence and think about your surroundings, think about the way your skills actually work. This doesn't even require group play (another pet peeve. Just because something requires a group or raid doesn't mean it takes more skill). LOTRO is a beautiful game and I enjoyed the PvE to a point, but there's very little challenging in the PvE. I wish they could put more mechanics modelling freep vs creep fights where you need to make split second decisions and not just button mash. The epic quest in the Misty Mountains where you fight the Nazgul I remember as being one of the more challenging fights, though it was my first character so not sure how it would seem now.
I played Guild Wars alot and it was a blast. I liked the level cap of 20 because it really took out the grind and forced you to get better by just knowing your skills better (plus fighting elite bosses to cap your best skills). However, I heard so much criticism over the level cap from people so ingrained into believing a game could not be fun if you weren't grinding out levels. One of the reasons I like all the quests in LOTRO is because it allows you to change how you level with new alts. I hate having to do the exact same sequence of quests everytime I play a game, which is how most games do it.
Last edited by avengingbananaslug; Jun 20 2012 at 11:30 AM.
I used to be quite dismissive, TBH. I remember seeing an early promo video & thinking, not my cup of tea.
Wasn't until the press beta prior to the start of pre-purchase w/beta access that my tune changed. Seeing a youtube vlogger free roam around Divinity's Reach tweaked my curiosity.
The exploration side of me KNOWS, this will be fun. I have never been curious about PvMP here, but WvWvW there looks ridiculously fun. The questing is presented in a much more organic fashion, but at the end of the day, it is questing. For me, not a problem as I don't mind taking that route. The more co-operative encouraged gaming is going to be a breath of fresh air. In my early days here, I used to help people, until I found out that is frowned upon. So now I tread extra careful, but it still feels unnatural to me. So really looking forward to that aspect. No more drama over ore nodes, etc.
Going to be a new learning curve with combat, but this would not be the first time I've had to relearn things. Also will be nice to never again have to sympathize for folk spending 2 (plus) hours making LFF calls for a tank, or healer. So that is just plain ole RELIEF to me.
As long as things are balanced out sufficiently for launch and the progression curves aren't terribly steep, I think I am going to have a blast working my way up to the most challenging content.
I guess I am also grateful to see someone not wholesale copy the WoW model (or what has become to be know as.) So another refreshing change there.
And visually, deeply satisfying. Soo... Overall, it definitely looks like fun to my eyes.
My main issue with participating in the closed beta for Guild Wars 2 was the lack of incentive to level up. You had essentially obtained all your skills for each weapon by level 15. Each subsequent level was more or less the same thing.. no new skills to look forward to, same strategy, no more customization.
I think you need a grind to have something to work towards. Guild Wars 2 didn't have that from the months I played. Since it's F2P though, I suppose this will work for them. They'll probably focus on pushing out expansions faster that may add new gameplay features.
Wow. Incredible article. Thank you for linking it.
One thing I took from this is their business model. They took the model one step further than most games, including this one in my opinion.
At the core of any MMO their model is to make money. It seems that arena net has incorporated their vision into this model. For example their vision is fun, they believe that they can derive their income by providing "fun". More "fun" = More money.
Compare this model with other games.
Providing a Grind = Money
Herding players into RMAH = Money
Ranking/achievement separation from other players = Money
Threat of performance (P2W) = Money.
Dynamic content = Money
Scripted content = Money
Each one of these models works, as they currently represent mechanics of several mmo's out there. If you saw these vision models on paper which one would you play?
*Lotro is still my favorite and tons of fun. With the exception of RMAH and P2W I think all of these are healthy and necessary portions of a successful game.
...your idea that an entire game could be successfully built around such a concept think I flawed: if that's all there is to do then even 'dynamic' content like that (and let's be honest here, Besieged is pretty rigid in how it works, and the only really 'dynamic' aspects of Besieged and Campaign in the randonmess of the enounters) will become boring.
See, I think it could work.
Besieged may not be the best example (it's old, tied to a very grindy traditional MMO design, and was something of a departure from the rest of FFXI), but it's the only one I have personal experience with (the few times I dinked around in Campaign don't count any more than the 3-4 Annuminas runs I conned people into trying).
Expand on the concept so it's less structured, then apply it to multiple aspects of the game (PvE, PvP, crafting/resource gathering, weather, seasons, etc.) and I think you'd have a solid foundation to build an amazing game on. At the very least, a structured system where you have a chance for a different encounter than you did the last time is better than one where it's identical every run.
Either way, we won't know for sure until someone actually pulls it off.
Originally Posted by Kerin_Eldar
Also, the FFXI playerbase is still grinding gear in 2012 as it was in 2006, they're still grinding gil for relics, cruor (sp?) for AF3 in lolAbyssea, etc. Besieged, Campaign and one or two other game mechanics are simply entertaining diversions for brief periods between the grinding sessions.
Yeah, FFXI itself hasn't really changed that much. I love certain aspects of the game to death (XNMs, the job system, the underlying mechanics, certain boss fights), but taken as a whole I'd never claim it's anything other than an old-school carrot+stick MMO.
Originally Posted by Kerin_Eldar
GW2 will fail, I have no doubt, to bring about a significant new type of MMO. I'm not saying it will 'fail' as a game, by all accounts it has some features that players will enjoy and, after all, GW1 was a bit different from the more conventional MMO and did very well.
Those were my thoughts, also.
Originally Posted by avengingbananaslug
One of the biggest annoyances I have with players is the belief in the following equation: something takes a long time = hard = fun.
Amen to that. It absolutely blows my mind that some people don't make a distinction between those concepts.
Ah good, this is no longer in general discussion, so I don't have to kid glove my post to make it fit there any longer.
The MMO industry has gone stale. Sales have been declining across the board. It is overdue for a kick in the backside.
Unfortunately, suits are still oblivious. Copycat, follow the money, deadbeats; with puppy dog trained, pee on the paper followers.
They are more likely to throw in the towel and say the industry just isn't viable, then step out of the mold.
Obviously GW2 can't throw everything out of whack as some things need to be a tad familiar.
My 2 biggest concerns:
1.) Instead of copying WoW, new game devs will just copy GW2. It isn't about copying, it is about innovation & inspiration. Tried & true counts, certainly, but why is that an excuse for laziness? Mimicry is certainly flattering, and if floating in the wake of the big guy is easier than making your own, by all means... but at some point, the comfortable, just becomes complacent. Why get stale?
2.) New pie hype & dirty corporate fingers. The hype over GW2 is attracting attention. Folk who aren't part of the innovation process should have the good sense to stay the heck back from it. Nexon is a cause for concern. Can they add to the potency, or will they just dilute things? Grass roots tend to have roots, top down tends to topple. Basically ArenaNets success can also draw out the sharks. External pressures from power players and all that.
Anyway, glad this is no longer in the general section as maybe a legitimate discussion can happen now. The hypersensitivity over a This Vs That was well misplaced IMO. I will continue to play LotRO. This unique IP should be kicking over a few industry sacred cows itself.
Ah good, this is no longer in general discussion, so I don't have to kid glove my post to make it fit there any longer.
The MMO industry has gone stale. Sales have been declining across the board. It is overdue for a kick in the backside.
Unfortunately, suits are still oblivious. Copycat, follow the money, deadbeats; with puppy dog trained, pee on the paper followers.
They are more likely to throw in the towel and say the industry just isn't viable, then step out of the mold.
Obviously GW2 can't throw everything out of whack as some things need to be a tad familiar.
My 2 biggest concerns:
1.) Instead of copying WoW, new game devs will just copy GW2. It isn't about copying, it is about innovation & inspiration. Tried & true counts, certainly, but why is that an excuse for laziness? Mimicry is certainly flattering, and if floating in the wake of the big guy is easier than making your own, by all means... but at some point, the comfortable, just becomes complacent. Why get stale?
2.) New pie hype & dirty corporate fingers. The hype over GW2 is attracting attention. Folk who aren't part of the innovation process should have the good sense to stay the heck back from it. Nexon is a cause for concern. Can they add to the potency, or will they just dilute things? Grass roots tend to have roots, top down tends to topple. Basically ArenaNets success can also draw out the sharks. External pressures from power players and all that.
Anyway, glad this is no longer in the general section as maybe a legitimate discussion can happen now. The hypersensitivity over a This Vs That was well misplaced IMO. I will continue to play LotRO. This unique IP should be kicking over a few industry sacred cows itself.
Ah, that felt good!
If GW2 causes Blizzard to make changes with WoW that remove the Holy Trinity from that game, then I will see that ArenaNet has made a direct impact on the industry. Blizzard is pretty apt to make changes when they see how the wind is blowing, so if they follow ANet's lead on this, you can be sure that the industry as a whole will also borrow from ANet's innovations, or simply innovate themselves (in a few cases).
My main issue with participating in the closed beta for Guild Wars 2 was the lack of incentive to level up. You had essentially obtained all your skills for each weapon by level 15. Each subsequent level was more or less the same thing.. no new skills to look forward to, same strategy, no more customization.
I think you need a grind to have something to work towards. Guild Wars 2 didn't have that from the months I played. Since it's F2P though, I suppose this will work for them. They'll probably focus on pushing out expansions faster that may add new gameplay features.
Just my two cents.
Yes it is easy to unlock your weapon skills, but you seem to have discounted the utility skills. The ones that are unlocked via skill points. On BWE2 My mesmer made it to level 31 and still had quite a few utility skills to unlock, not to mention elite skills which aren't even available until level 30. If you only made it to level 15 then I can tell you that you really didn't even begin to see how your skills work together to synergize yet at that point. Around level 20 or so you will start to notice that the skills you have are situational and depending on which ones you bring to the battle, and how they work together when slotted on your skill bar you just might get you're butt handed to you a few times..lol. I know I did.
[On-Topic]
Personally I don't need grind of any kind. I had a blast exploring areas and finding new events and locations. Games should be fun & not work. Spending All day staring at my screen because my cook has to make food for herself and alts it's not fun, It's grind. Even the crafting grind is going the way of the DODO bird in GW2.
When you have the type of world where you happen upon various "quests" simply by exploring and not running for the NPC who has the marker over their head, you are almost guaranteeing a different leveling experience for a player who chooses to roll alts, as well as each player. The exception too that being the player who finds one path on their first toon & sticks to that path with alts.
When you make sure that no matter what level a player is they can still enjoy any content in any area, you remove the requirement too have repeatable content, because you can double, triple or even quadruple the amount of content available fairly easily. This also means you can add new content anywhere at any level and no one person is left out because they are too high to participate. While some people may genuinely enjoy raiding & repeatable content, it's been my experience while conversing with many others in the mmo community, that quite a few people find it at least annoying if not out right painful to have to run repeatable content to get the best items, gear, etc, only to have it outdated or relegated useless when the next level cap is added.
I personally don't mind doing an instance because that instance drops something that will look really cool on my character, and if I don't get the rare cool looking drop, but still get something well that's okay too, because at least I'm getting something. But to have to grind an instance because I need gear to grind another instance is not fun and not acceptable which is why most of my characters on LOTRO and WOW have never seen top end raiding gear. I don't want to take a few hours to run some content on the chance that I "Might" get some loot should the RNG favor me, or because I have to have x amount of tokens from the content to get it.
Playing a game shouldn't feel like work, it should feel like a game. The grind most MMO's have packaged and sold us for so long as a way to stretch out gameplay is not just not fun for a good portion of the game playing community. This fact seems to be evidenced in the way that most MMO's that have been out for any length of time, normally have a huge surge of activity from returning players because something new was added to it for people to experience.
I think Arena Net is on too something by making sure it's fun, because I mean if a game isn't fun then it by it's very definition does it really deserve to be called a game?
Last edited by MrsAngelD; Jun 21 2012 at 12:56 AM.
Reason: Spelling & Grammar
My main issue with participating in the closed beta for Guild Wars 2 was the lack of incentive to level up. You had essentially obtained all your skills for each weapon by level 15. Each subsequent level was more or less the same thing.. no new skills to look forward to, same strategy, no more customization.
I think you need a grind to have something to work towards. Guild Wars 2 didn't have that from the months I played. Since it's F2P though, I suppose this will work for them. They'll probably focus on pushing out expansions faster that may add new gameplay features.
Just my two cents.
The class skills and traits are really quite important. If you tried out sPvP, you'd notice a world of difference playing your character there vs. in PvE.
STROZZAPRETI 10/X6|RIGATONI 8|GNOCCHI 7|MACCHERONI 7|RAVIOLI 6|FUSILLI 6 ASTERIX|CHARAKHA|KHAGATAI|VORO RIP Nidor, we miss ya.
The class skills and traits are really quite important. If you tried out sPvP, you'd notice a world of difference playing your character there vs. in PvE.
True, but I think that amulets and sigils had a large part in that.
-----------------
Lot's of us are looking for something new. I'm tired of the same grind in MMO's. The sort of "oh, you'll die alot unless you grind X armour." Next expansion, X armour is useless, because Y armour is now here.
GW2 offered lots of fun. The small time in PvE I had I enjoyed, but got distracted. I was trying to do renown hearts and noticed a Dynamic Event nearby, then completed the rest of the chain.
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Browsing the forums till GW2 is released.
Some major expert in propaganda and marketing bla bla has convinced you that there is the first game ever that considered 'fun' as the prime motivation ?
Judging by this mind-bending bull they are keep talking. They are either afraid of nobody will be interested in that super casual pvp fest with xbox controll scheme. Or Anet is preparing the biggest F2P fraud till now.
If you want something fresh and inovative play tera. It looks so good its frightening. And it plays so smooth that it becomes a truly new mmo experience - sub based.
If you want something fresh and innovative play Tera. It looks so good its frightening. And it plays so smooth that it becomes a truly new mmo experience - sub based.
Combat may be tight, but another Korean style grinder. I wasn't interested in Aion, nor does Tera do anything to peak my interest.
If you think it is new... heh.
To be frank... not with a ten foot pole. *shudders*
Well, it's important to bear in mind that we all have different definitions of "fun". Some like exploring, some like PvP, some like solving puzzles, and there are even some that like the mindless gear grind.
For me, personally, it's exploration and marveling at a beautifully developed gameworld. That's what's kept me in LOTRO all this time, and when time permits I still do it. I love lore, and I love story.
So using those criteria and judging by what I've seen with...um, kittens...so far--yes, it's fun.
Some major expert in propaganda and marketing bla bla has convinced you that there is the first game ever that considered 'fun' as the prime motivation ?
Judging by this mind-bending bull they are keep talking. They are either afraid of nobody will be interested in that super casual pvp fest with xbox controll scheme. Or Anet is preparing the biggest F2P fraud till now.
If you want something fresh and inovative play tera. It looks so good its frightening. And it plays so smooth that it becomes a truly new mmo experience - sub based.
Propaganda didn't convince me, my husband, or friends that GW2 is fun..playing the game did...lol.
Some major expert in propaganda and marketing bla bla has convinced you that there is the first game ever that considered 'fun' as the prime motivation ?
Judging by this mind-bending bull they are keep talking. They are either afraid of nobody will be interested in that super casual pvp fest with xbox controll scheme. Or Anet is preparing the biggest F2P fraud till now.
If you want something fresh and inovative play tera. It looks so good its frightening. And it plays so smooth that it becomes a truly new mmo experience - sub based.
#2 dumbest post on the forums, yay!
Aside from that, I haven't personally played GW2, but I am still massively excited for it. As a GW1 and Lotro founder, it's rather clear to me, and many others, that Anet are trying to change some of the decade long bland, stale MMO mechanics. And, with that, it appears to be a whole lot of fun.
As another aside, GW2 is really only being overly hyped by the players, not Anet themselves. So, blaming Anet for not creating the best thing ever really isn't fair at all. IMO, it will probably get overall Skyrim like praise. Skyrim freshened up the RPG market, but not without some flaws, and GW2 seems to be on the same track.
I think Arena Net is on too something by making sure it's fun, because I mean if a game isn't fun then it by it's very definition does it really deserve to be called a game?
Yes. My comment was aimed towards this specific lines you wrote. 'Anet is on too something ...'
And to be honest at the moment I am having trouble if I still be able to see Lotro as a 'game' like you described it.
Combat may be tight, but another Korean style grinder. I wasn't interested in Aion, nor does Tera do anything to peak my interest.
If you think it is new... heh.
To be frank... not with a ten foot pole. *shudders*
Could it be the character graphics style that isn't to your taste since this game certainly has its own grinding too(tasks/deeds/rerunning dungeons/skirmishes for drops so you can move on)? I do really like LoTRO's graphics style even though it would be very nice if we had a bit more character customization, but for gameplay I'm holding out for ArcheAge because it seems to be the first game on the horizon that harks back to my UO sandbox memories, albeit with much younger(FF style) looking character models. I'm more worried that they will do the typical f2p/p2w style that has been all the rage rather than a good solid sub based game. :/
Now if it's the lore that keeps you, I doubt you're going to find anything else that has works such as Tolkien to draw from... and try to stay within the boundaries of. I know alot of people slam WoW for it's "lore", but I've been reading the books that came after and I have to say they are engaging and have definitely made that game more than just a place to hang out when I got tired of deeding or waiting for a group so I could play through the quest line in this one. Whether the story and gameplay in ArcheAge will meet expectations, who knows, though as a sandbox much of that will be up to the people who play it but the teaser videos from their beta testing surely do look like everyone is having fun!
None of that correlates to Lotro, where they have accelerated the pace you go through the game and leveling is so quick, you out-level a quest hub having done only a portion of the content (I couldn't even imagine it with VIP rest XP).
Really? None of that?
From the first post: " loot drop systems that require doing a dungeon with a tiny chance the item you want can drop at the end, raid systems that need huge numbers of people online simultaneously to organize and play, thousands of wash/repeat item-collection or kill-mob quests or dailies with flavor text support, the best stat gear requiring crazy amounts of time to earn,"
Sounds all too familiar to me.
By being both subscription-based and F2P at the same time, LOTRO has an even wider variety of fleecing strategies from both business models to choose from. LOTRO just doesn't employ all of those strategies. In this case, Turbine had simply chosen to make levelling easy and instead pile all of the grind into other aspects of the overall gameplay. If a character isn't at end-game, that character certainly has little motivation to invest more in LIs, virtues, raid buffs, stat tomes, PVP consumables, amongst other things.
Originally Posted by Stevo6
The small time in PvE I had I enjoyed, but got distracted. I was trying to do renown hearts and noticed a Dynamic Event nearby, then completed the rest of the chain.
Not directed at you in particular, but I want to quote this because it's one of the main things uninformed and new players to the game are misunderstanding.
You are not supposed to focus on the renown hearts specifically. The basic objectives of the hearts appear to be close approximates to the traditional types of quests that we're all so used to by now, so it's hard to get out of that habit.
Players who fill one heart with menial tasks and then move on to grind the next heart are missing the point and missing out on a lot of content, i.e. the dynamic events, and rewards and EXP. The hearts are just there as hints on where some dynamic events might take place. The basic objectives of the hearts are just there for you to kill some time before the next event pops up. The dynamic events are not "distractions". If you participate in and follow through with the event chains, the hearts will fill up naturally as a side effect. The events are the actual quests, so-to-speak, with storylines and cause-and-effects. The hearts are more like LOTRO's reputation vendors in that sense.
GW2's PVE experience is very skewed towards exploration and "completionism", which works well for people who like exploration. Players who are too used to the traditional questing structure do need to drop the "grind this quest hub, move on to next quest hub" mentality though.
GW2's PVE experience is very skewed towards exploration and "completionism", which works well for people who like exploration. Players who are too used to the traditional questing structure do need to drop the "grind this quest hub, move on to next quest hub" mentality though.
That was my biggest hurdle in enjoying Bethesda's single player RPG, Skyrim. In fact, that hurdle was so big that by the time I over came that hurdle in dropping the quest hub mentality I had to start over and make another character to enjoy the game the way it was meant to be played.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
Civ II rules after all these years......
Could it be the character graphics style that isn't to your taste since this game certainly has its own grinding too(tasks/deeds/rerunning dungeons/skirmishes for drops so you can move on)?
I was referring to Tera. I didn't really want to go to much into it, because if bastardoGrande is happy there, then I don't want to bash a game someone is enjoying. I hope he finds his niche & is happy playing there. So I only stated the one positive thing I know for a fact about Tera; it's combat system is very solid (tight.)
I do have a list of things I don't like beyond the Asian style grinder elements. If I were to start that list with:
-Elin
-
The smart among you will probably understand the gist of what else would be the top items on that list.
Anyway, this thread is about how game monetization models effect design & how subscription based games, design with maintaining a players sub in mind.
GW2 won't be designing around a subscription model. They will have a cash shop. So we shall see if they design the cash shop around the game, or the game round the cash shop. I, and pretty much everyone who is showing interest in GW2 is hoping it is the former, rather than the latter.
Originally Posted by BellusDuFenna
If GW2 causes Blizzard to make changes with WoW that remove the Holy Trinity from that game, then I will see that ArenaNet has made a direct impact on the industry. Blizzard is pretty apt to make changes when they see how the wind is blowing, so if they follow ANet's lead on this, you can be sure that the industry as a whole will also borrow from ANet's innovations, or simply innovate themselves (in a few cases).
Time will tell. Pandaria looks entirely like a contrivance to me. I wonder how long Blizzard will keep 'Titan' on the back burners.
If GW2 does hit, I expect we'll see Blizzard pull Titan out from hiding and start working on it in more 'official' ways. If it doesn't, I would expect them to milk the industry behemoth for a few more expansions.
As far as dropping the Holy Trinity? I don't think so. WoW players are some of the best trained MMO'ers out there.
Turbine has been locking and deleting the GW2 threads, which speaks for itself what they are worried about.
I don't think being worried is the reason. The reason I say that is because when Rift was coming out they were locking and deleting all references to that game, and nothing was done about the Star Wars the Old Republic MMO. And the SWTOR threads had all sorts of LOTRO bashing and doom predictions too.
I'm guessing it's some sort of contract issue or the threads getting too nasty and mean.
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
Civ II rules after all these years......
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Originally Posted by whheydt
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