(I did find some other threads on this topic, but they had devolved into "I don't want Achievements because I don't want LotRO to be like WoW" discussions.)
I'm playing some Diablo III now, and I really enjoy the Achievements in that game. Yeah, they're pretty similar to WoW's, I guess.
First, the interface for tracking deeds in LotrO could be improved. That's a fairly minor issue though.
For the most part, LotRO rewards are nice (TP, titles, virtues, etc). I do like Diablo's banner rewards though. They are purely cosmetic - you earn different graphics which you can combine to create a personalized banner. The banner shows up at your main quest hub, and people can port to you by clicking on your banner. (That's a nice feature, but I'm not suggesting it for LotRO.) You can also place your banner (like a Captain), just to show it - it hangs around for 30 seconds or so. I actually think that type of reward fits LotRO lore well, with all the heraldry and images that Tolkien developed.
You do earn points for Achievements in Diablo (and other games). I'm not sure what the points are for - maybe just bragging rights.
The type of Achievements is where things get interesting. LotRO has plenty of slayer deeds, and explorations, and general complete-the-content ones. It doesn't have any for silly/funny stuff. I'm sure that's quite intentional; there really is very little humor in the game (or the books, for that matter). Although I enjoy the humorous achievements in other games, they probably aren't appropriate for this one.
Diablo has Achievements for completing various parts of the game Solo and Co-op. LotRO has some of that (for example, all the deeds for the Barrow-downs Survival skirmish) - but I think they overdid that one. Personally I love deeds, and I've done almost every one in the game (on my main), but that's one set I have not completed. It seems like way too much to me. Or the one where you have to kill the 4 bosses in every possible order; I imagine most people will never even attempt that one.
I think my main observation is that I don't find LotRO deeds as much "fun" as Diablo achievements. I'm not sure why though. I do find it fun to earn achievements I didn't even know about. Diablo has a ton of these -- like killing a boss while avoiding his lightning attack. Sort of like LotRO challenge-modes. It gives you a fun reason to re-play the content.
What do you guys think? Can LotRO deeds be tweaked to be more fun, without hurting the mood of the game overall?
For me there is no functional difference between our Deed system and the Achievement system that you find in other games like Skyrim and Mass Effect.
Lotro's problem is that there are a massive number of the same kind of schievement. I will use the original Mass Effect to talk about.
1) In Mass Effect - there are two kill achievements - kill synethics and organics. Lotro has hundreds of kill critters. It is kill the same critter in multiple regions. There is boredom because you are doing the same thing over and over and over.
2) In Mass Effect - there is a group of skill usage achievements - one for each Biotic skill. Lotro has a bazillion of these class achievements for your skills. There is boredom because you are doing the same thing over and over and over.
3) Mass Effect - there is a romance achievement. Nothing like that in Lotro.
4) Mass Effect - there a group of skill usage achievements - one each weapon. Very similar to 2.
5) Mass Effect - there is a group of grouper achievements - one for each of the companions. Lotro does not have any achievements for doing content with specific classes in your group.
In summary, I see Lotro's problem for achievements as:
1) There are very few kinds of achievements.
2) There is too many of the same kind of achievement.
Mass Effect has fewer total achievements (40?) and seems to have more categories.
Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.
5) Mass Effect - there is a group of grouper achievements - one for each of the companions. Lotro does not have any achievements for doing content with specific classes in your group.
That's not quite true. As I mentioned, there are lots (perhaps too many) deeds for the Barrow-downs Survival skirmish. Many of those have to be done with a small fellowship, or full fellowship, or raid. Some have to be done with no duplicate classes in your group, etc.
There's also the Inn of the Forsaken, where you need one of each type (tank, healer, other) to complete the deed.
In summary, I see Lotro's problem for achievements as:
1) There are very few kinds of achievements.
2) There is too many of the same kind of achievement.
Mass Effect has fewer total achievements (40?) and seems to have more categories.
I agree that a very large percentage of LotRO's deeds are in a very small number of categories ("slayer" is by far the biggest one). If I have time, I'll see if I can figure out the actual percentages, and make a pie-chart or something. But there are other types; there just aren't very many of them.
I guess I just find them to be rather unimaginative. Slay 250 orcs; explore this region, etc, etc... Nothing wrong with some of that of course, but it's pretty boring. Slay 50 rare spawn named mobs would be a lot more interesting. Or kill every troll in Camp X before they can respawn.
That's not quite true. As I mentioned, there are lots (perhaps too many) deeds for the Barrow-downs Survival skirmish. Many of those have to be done with a small fellowship, or full fellowship, or raid. Some have to be done with no duplicate classes in your group, etc.
Not the same. There is no achievement in Lotro for completing Battle in the Tower 3 man with the 8 other classes in your group. Which would require a minimum of 4 completions.
I perceive this kind of achievement that you are talking about as different instances. Or another member of a very over populated achievement like all the Skirmish kill deeds. The size model are implemented are different instances implemented on the same map. It is very similar to the assignment maps for buildings and ships in Mass Effect. There are very few of these maps. Bioware came up with a little more variation in the locals, the goal and the scripting than Turbine does when they reuse maps for something like Battle of the Tower.
Originally Posted by Beleg
There's also the Inn of the Forsaken, where you need one of each type (tank, healer, other) to complete the deed.
Good point. Sadly - Isn't Inn of Forsaken the only content element that has an achievement of this type? Given the number of members in exploration or kill categories for group instances. We could use a few more of the in this category.
Originally Posted by Beleg
I guess I just find them to be rather unimaginative. Slay 250 orcs; explore this region, etc, etc... Nothing wrong with some of that of course, but it's pretty boring. Slay 50 rare spawn named mobs would be a lot more interesting. Or kill every troll in Camp X before they can respawn.
Exactly. Surely with the massive amount of content that Turbine has provided for this game. We could have a lot more achievement categories. I wasn't trying to do an extensive study. I am going from memory from a game that I have been playing currently.
Turbine employees play games. They are aware of what is currently available. Yet they have made little to no effort to make a list. Which of these can we add to Lotro. Get the tech in game to support one or more new deeds / achievements. Even when they added a new that I forgot about for Inn of Forsaken. It was use once and junk it.
Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.
Here's a quick chart. It's based on the deed list from http://lotro.allakhazam.com/db/deeds.html?mode=listall. It looks to be mostly up-to-date (it has Great River, etc). They categories they use are a bit weird, but it should be accurate enough for a comparison. The Reputation type is mostly for completing Quests I think. The Skill category is for class skills, and includes all classes.
I think it would be interesting to compare this to other games. If anyone knows of a web-page with a nice categorized list of achievements for another game, let me know and I'll produce a chart so we can compare.
You can look up Mass Effect achievements for all three games: http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Achievements
here. It has the base game and the DLC achievements for Mass Effect, Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3.
I do not know of any nice category listing. There are not that many achievements in the Mass Effect series.
Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.
I'm sorry but that graphic is not showing meta-deeds ok. or maybe it doesn't show the inside Raids meta-deeds, For example...
Saviour of mirkwood
Saviour of moria
Saviour of eriador.
And yet the graphic only shows 3...
I personally would love more Deeds to do, some achievements could be fun, but before thinking on that think on this: Have you ever done all deeds in Lotro? Unless i made that i won't ask for more deeds or achievements, there's a lot to work on yet, i even have my own list :P
Ok, here's a chart based on that Mass Effect page. I used the first word of the Requirement column to categorize them. Any with 2 or fewer was counted as "Other".
There are a few fun, mostly hidden, deeds around: "Blind Leaper" and "Well Travelled" in Moria, "Pork Chopper" and "Ridge Runner" among them. I was quite surprised to get the Fire Breath emote on my Minstrel for being cheered the requisite number of times
Granted, there are very few of them, but they do provide a bit of leaven for the overwhelming stodge of Slayer deeds.
Regardless of all the discussion up to this point...there's no need for an Achievement system. The Deed system does exactly the same thing without requiring any new architecture.
All you're really asking for is more deeds, and more creative deeds. I dont think anyone wouldn't /sign for that.
Its not like deeds all have to come with TP and Virtues....they could just be for a title, or a cosmetic, or an IXP rune, or just for fun
Regardless of all the discussion up to this point...there's no need for an Achievement system. The Deed system does exactly the same thing without requiring any new architecture.
All you're really asking for is more deeds, and more creative deeds. I dont think anyone wouldn't /sign for that.
Its not like deeds all have to come with TP and Virtues....they could just be for a title, or a cosmetic, or an IXP rune, or just for fun
Agreed - I'm not looking for a new system. Though I do think other games have a much nicer interface for tracking achievements than LotRO's. But it's okay.
I would certainly like more of the fun/interesting achievements -- even if they are a bit on the silly side. Though I certainly understand others might feel differently, and want to keep the more "serious" feel of the game.
And I'd love to see rewards like Diablo's personalizable banners - which would very much fit it with the lore, I think.
Regardless of all the discussion up to this point...there's no need for an Achievement system. The Deed system does exactly the same thing without requiring any new architecture.
All you're really asking for is more deeds, and more creative deeds. I dont think anyone wouldn't /sign for that.
Its not like deeds all have to come with TP and Virtues....they could just be for a title, or a cosmetic, or an IXP rune, or just for fun
We're on Steam now, it's par for the course to have an achievement system.
I think my main observation is that I don't find LotRO deeds as much "fun" as Diablo achievements.
That's because Turbine figured out that making them as BORING as they could was a good way to earn money. Make them boring and long and people will buy the virtues off of the LOTRO Store with TP.
NO MORE LEGENDARIES - This isn't a job, it's a game.
Or kill every troll in Camp X before they can respawn.
Well, there are those camps in Forochel you can flip exactly like this, so tech side is already in place - we are missing deeds
And while we're at it, I think something that rewards you not (just) for each deed but also for entire group of them, could be at least partial solution - and the biggest requirement would be... typing it all in. Saviour of Eriador - style, but for different activities or combinations. And then either keep current bloated mess of titles or have them tier up as well, with a possibility of keeping select few you happen to like a lot.
We could at least start from there and then add ideas like above, the ones that require a little more development power than Typing Master - anything that can make those poor deed horses feel less lonely is fine with me.
Last edited by Ferthcott; Jun 19 2012 at 05:42 AM.
That's because Turbine figured out that making them as BORING as they could was a good way to earn money. Make them boring and long and people will buy the virtues off of the LOTRO Store with TP.
Our deeds were long and boring at launch in 2007. At the time the concept of deeds was being developed there was no DDO Store, Lotro Store or any other store.
You can not blame our deed design on the Lotro Store which arrived in September, 2010 some three years after game launch. You have a valid point with deeds giving out Turbine Points after the launch of F2P that the long and boring will never go away.
There is no evidence that had Lotro stayed Pay To Play that deeds would have changed. Turbine did not make any significant changes in the years before the start of F2P development December 2009 or January 2010.
Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.
without any offense meant to the OP, who i will presume is a much more loyal customer than me (let alone an older supporter), i really have to start my reply in his own words..yes, this -would- bring Lotro a step closer to "other type of games"..just like getting a battle recount (some thread i was reading here yesterday) could lead to just that same outcome..
I understand and respect your opinion. There is however:
a) a thing called Pandora's box, and it's only the first step that matters, cause you once opened it, well, there you go really;
b) a notion best described as -difference-. I am happy to know you are enjoying your achievements in D3, as you said..maybe in WoW and Rift too..good and fine. Keep playing them. And when you come here, you can indeed enjoy that bit of a difference. It is this difference that has attracted your in-game lotro friends, it is this difference that has made you play lotro for so long. Careful what you ask for.
I too miss a lot of aspects one can find in other MMOs. I have only asked for one of those here, leaving everything else out. Why? Because of the above rules. That achievements' page you seek has immense consequences. I started WoW during vanilla, and i played it till WOTLK. Ask me about those consequences at any time you find convenient.
.. it is this difference that has made you play lotro for so long...
An interesting observation for sure. I'm not sure I agree in this case, but it's something to think about -- especially when one considers adding in more of the fun/silly/humorous achievements...
That's because Turbine figured out that making them as BORING as they could was a good way to earn money. Make them boring and long and people will buy the virtues off of the LOTRO Store with TP.
Fun deeds dont have to be tied to a reward. You can keep the really good rewards (TP, virtues) tied to grindier, time-sink type deeds, while fun deeds just give lesser, cosmetic, or no reward.
The only tangible benefit would be increasing your quest log size - but I imagine most players are maxed out, anyway, and even if you're not, you very rarely ever hit your quest limit.
The only tangible benefit would be increasing your quest log size - but I imagine most players are maxed out, anyway, and even if you're not, you very rarely ever hit your quest limit.
I wish. I seem to hit my maximum number of quests about every fifteen minutes, but that's probably more due to me wanting to see and do EVERYTHING all at once, and not being able to pace myself properly.
You can also place your banner (like a Captain), just to show it - it hangs around for 30 seconds or so. I actually think that type of reward fits LotRO lore well, with all the heraldry and images that Tolkien developed.
I really don't like this idea for the reason that people would abuse it, cluttering up common areas with banners strewn everywhere. What I'd like instead are banners for housing.
It doesn't have any for silly/funny stuff. I'm sure that's quite intentional; there really is very little humor in the game (or the books, for that matter). Although I enjoy the humorous achievements in other games, they probably aren't appropriate for this one.
Obviously, you don't have done the social hidden deeds yet.
Pork-chopper (for slaying one boar in each of the zones of pre-Book XIII LOTRO - and yes, that includes this single boar in Angmar), pie-eater (for eating every type of pie), the Loved (for being /kissed 100 times)...
Not speaking of the festival deeds, which grant you the skill associated to the consumable, provided you perfom it enough times (and enough is many many ). And the chicken-deeds. And Floyd & Dewitt. And that particular session-play where you were sent as a chicken in the Moors. And I must be forgetting some of them (the well in the Crossing's Room, the Blind Leaper...).
Moreover, even if the deeds in themselves are not that funny, associated titles are sometimes quite enjoyable (I'm French, so I could not say which particular title would suit me well in english, but in french, some are very funny - or were, like "empêcheur de planifier en rond", which was sadly re-translated in the latest update).
This said, I'd be glad to see more "specific" deeds, including slaying certain named ennemies (just like the Champions of Annuminas, or the bosses in the instance deeds) instead of just increasing one's slaying content (as a "non-violent" class - understand, a burglar, who doesn't feel the need to kill everything he sees - I'm always far behind in terms of slaying deeds, as I don't need to kill more than needed for the quests).
And more quests for completing "idiot" things (like slaying lvl 1 animals - forbidden to the elves), juming from silly places, finding hidden zones, and so on.
Deeds for grouping would also be enjoyable (yes like the deeds in the Survival skirmish). And why not some for completing Fellowship Maneuvers?
I don't think LOTRO's lacking achievments (considering how my deed log is still quite full), but I'd gladly see even more of them, and new ideas would be warmly welcome.
I really don't like this idea for the reason that people would abuse it, cluttering up common areas with banners strewn everywhere. What I'd like instead are banners for housing.
Agreed; I was just explaining how Diablo works. The banner only stays up for about 15 seconds, I think. I like the idea of banners for housing.
Originally Posted by Skro-Noleth
Obviously, you don't have done the social hidden deeds yet.
Yes, I've done almost every deed in the game (except for PvMP ones). I like the hidden social deeds. I would like to see more of that sort.
What's the difference between deed and achievement?
Achievement has more letters.
Having cleared that up, some light comedy . . .
Pseudolus: [Speaking of the girl Hero says he loves] A common courtesan in the house of Lycus? Hero: Is that bad? Pseudolus: There's no way to make it sound like an achievement!
I would love to see more of the fun exploration or social deeds, especially the hidden sort that we get to discover ourselves (for example, there really should have been a title for finding the rabbits in Enedwaith and Great River areas!). Having more secrets to discover, along the lines of the Floyd and Dewitt or the Ridge-Racer/Blind Leaper types, would appeal to the explorers among us who get weary of the slayer deeds sometimes. And I think some music or dance related deeds, or other such achievements for us RPers would be nice too.
/signed for more creative deeds and rewards. Great thread!
Post Master Online status:
Reputation:
Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty
Grand Member Online status:
Reputation:
Poster of Note Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Droid's Combo-button Mastery for Wardens (AHK script): http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.p...button-Mastery
Grand Member Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
Junior Member Online status:
Senior Member Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
Century Member Online status:
). And the chicken-deeds. And Floyd & Dewitt. And that particular session-play where you were sent as a chicken in the Moors. And I must be forgetting some of them (the well in the Crossing's Room, the Blind Leaper...).
Senior Member Online status:
Grand Member Online status:
Reply With Quote
Posting Permissions
