Thread: Changes to LM survivability post Audacity...

I posted here instead of the Moors section because I don't want be flamed by a hoard of creeps, though some may be inclined to do this anyway, enjoy.
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As a rank 9 LM (7Audacity) who likes to solo/small group play in the moors... I play much of my time late at night due to my work schedule, there is no raid to join. Since the onset of Audacity I have slowly but steadily seen my kills:deaths ratio decreasing. It was never impressive due to our class not being particularly durable or good at getting away from a bad fight, but now its worse.

I find that since Audacity I am having a harder time than ever for some obvious reasons:

As we all know, Audacity decreases incoming damage, but that doesn't seem to effect the amount of induction setback we receive when we are hit, nothing that Ive noticed reduces the setback, in fact. When fighting swarms of anything at any level, if they hit me, they knock back my inductions, or if a single target is hitting me fast enough (IE: a decent warg, by itself) I cannot induct any skills. I can stand there all day long and swing my staff in little circles above my head trying to induct LotRD and nothing will happen, because the warg is simply hitting me too many times/min and setting back my induction. It doesn't help that my incoming damage has been reduced 30% by audacity, my DPS is essentially set to 0 in this case.

Yes, yes we have a few skills that help with this, debuffs for one will slow their attacks, we have some DPS skills with no inductions, we have ISG with a decreased induction if traited, some staff skills, and of course the massively damaging Wizard's Fire...

We used to be able to negate this problem somewhat by stun/mez/rooting our opponent and stepping away to induct a skill. Each stun/mez/root could be counted on pretty well to get you at least one skill inducted and you could make it through a 1v1 often successfully against even a high ranked creep. This still involved keeping BE on a target for the 30% slow so they didn't immediately catch right up to you after their stun/mez/root wore off. This is no longer effective due to the cumulative effects of Audacity (-50% CC duration) + Diminishing returns + Pots + several creep skills = you are SOL after a few moments of a fight. (lets NOT even discuss Brands)

Kiting was another successful strategy to completing a 1v1, especially useful after Diminishing Returns had made your CC useless previously. This is less effective now due to the fact that many/most creep classes have A: superior slows to our own, B: run-speed buffs which are much greater than our slow, C: Massive Heals that if we try to kite them they just full heal themselves.

I will not attempt to in any way degrade BE in the moors, I Legacy it for 40M range and I feel that it is definitely our most effective skill in the Moors, or anywhere, possibly the game's most effective skill in the moors, due to its many facets which I will not get into. Regardless of this, it is not enough to see us through 1v1 or small group combat if we are being targeted by creeps as DPS target, which is often the case in small group combat (Obviously in 1v1) as we know, due to our light armor and other supporting/annoying skills.

I admit that I have not looked at actual data, but I feel confident enough to say that WoTC healing has not scaled up with our morale pool. I used to count on WoTC to give me a large boost to morale, enough to see me through a fight if I was getting beaten. Now I count on it to give me about 2k, often it does better, yes, but I dont expect to get more than 2k or so because I tend towards the unlucky I think. Back in Angmar/early Moria days, I could count on WoTC to heal about half of my morale... that would be about 4300 now... This is another factor in our decreased 1v1 potency but not the one I am particularly concerned about.

We have to stand still to induct any skills. We stand there... we stand and die if we are in a fight. When we run, we run and induct Wizard's Fire which does some small but not insignificant damage and then die while ranged classes who need not stand still to use their attacks follow behind and slow us/DPS us dead. This is oversimplification obviously, and I consider myself to be pretty good at 1v1 using LM (its my only class and I do not have time nor inclination to level another). I understand very well the details of kiting, dodging back and forth, when to staff strike/sweep, when to attempt an induction, basically the intimate timing of 1v1 etc. This having to stand still to do the vast majority of our DPS is another disadvantage, just to make note this is not something I wish to change, as it would fundamentally alter our class if we were able to move while using the majority of our skills and I do not wish for further unbalance, even if its in my favor.

***What I really WOULD like to see, and hat I would dearly love to have tested on Bullroarer/in Palantir by LOTRO's chosen elite, is whether or not Moors play would be negatively impacted by having LMs induction SETBACK decreased. I don't want to do away with inductions, I don't want to speed up inductions. I know that the Devs et al have been working to make PvMP play last longer, they don't want to see people dieing so quickly, this is why they shortened CC, and decreased incoming DPS with Audacity, but did NOT increase damage by this same mechanism. This is well and good, and I'm all for having longer fights, with less time spent running from the res circle. If LM induction SETBACK were decreased, even 25%, even if ONLY while in the moors, this would be a HUGE boon to our class in 1v1 and small group play, but would NOT otherwise negatively affect PVP or PVE.

Examples:
-We would be able to induct some skills. It might still take us a little longer than when not under fire, but we could get it done and it wouldn't be an exercise in futility to attempt inducting even our fastest induction against a well ranked warg or reaver.
-This would NOT speed up PVP. Our outgoing DPS would remain the same, our inductions would take just as long to induct, there would be no increase in our outgoing damage EXCEPT and only if we are the DPS target, and this merely moves our DPS closer towards baseline, never exceeding it.
-This may in fact even lengthen PVMP fights where the LM is taking damage.
-This would NOT change PVE in any significant way, LMs still would not be able to stand against large groups of even mid-level NPCs without some other support/strategy as currently.
-Combat where the LM is not the DPS target would be completely and entirely unchanged (I guess AOEs that hit the LM would setback inductions a little less, but this is negligible).

There are many possible solutions to strengthening LMs in the Moors, Most of them are too altering to the class and disruptive to either PvMP setting, PVE setting, or both. I find that this solution is the most simple and least impacting other aspects of the game. It does not change the role of the LM, it should be relatively easy to implement.

It could be implemented in any of the ways Devs implement other skills/improvements. This could be a series of passive traits that LM receives, each giving 5% less induction setback?
It could be tied to the Red trait line.
It could be tied to Tactically adept (this would be great since that is the purpose of this trait in any case, to improve castability of some damage)
It could be tied to Audacity and benefit every class, Hunters come to mind.
It could become a Legendary Legacy and I would swap it in in a heartbeat.
The % of setback reduction could be a static stat on either Legandary Staff or Legendary Book.
Im sure there are more but Im out of ideas.

Thank you for those who made it to the end...

Thoughtfully,
-Moribundus of Meneldor, The Inklings kin.

I agree 100%, if your in a group its not as bad, but if solo or small group LM's are a sitting duck now. Was at a 15-1 kill ratio, since the audacity update, its been dropped to about 10-1 & I have been playing my RK instead. I would love to also take my LM back to moors.

you have a lot of cd.

Versus a warg you can use a stun/burning staf sweep and run ancient craft after you need the scroll of parable for use the ent or can use the CALL OF valar chain light and all istant cast ... burning ember at start can help you in kite a bit and if you have 10% speed increasing from coffe you can avoid a lot of attack ...

Well atm lore master isn't so bad in solo, it's only NORMAL are the other class too much OP -.-
Tbh i can kill anyone with a bit of lucky ... if the enemy have a hight rank the dps become really low and you can trust only in a devastate else you will be death ...
But is the lore master style ... are the oter class too much OP and with all istant skill and survive skill ... that's ruin the game.

Originally Posted by Guiwinner

you have a lot of cd.

Versus a warg you can use a stun/burning staf sweep and run ancient craft after you need the scroll of parable for use the ent or can use the CALL OF valar chain light and all istant cast ... burning ember at start can help you in kite a bit and if you have 10% speed increasing from coffe you can avoid a lot of attack ...

Well atm lore master isn't so bad in solo, it's only NORMAL are the other class too much OP -.-
Tbh i can kill anyone with a bit of lucky ... if the enemy have a hight rank the dps become really low and you can trust only in a devastate else you will be death ...
But is the lore master style ... are the oter class too much OP and with all istant skill and survive skill ... that's ruin the game.

At the moment, lm is comfortably the weakest solo freep class. It's been said hundreds of times before and most agree on it both freep and creepside. However, the point also must be made that we're comfortably one of the strongest (if not the strongest) raid v raid freep class. Our ability to get off massive chains of aoe damage and cc when supported by heals cannot be undervalued.

However, the OP hit the nail right on the head as to our issue. In raid v raid, we can afford to hang back and let loose massive aoe bombs. If we have to get up close for a staff sweep for our crit chance increase, so be it. We can get an auto induction off with CttV for Ents and Parable for Lightning (or something to that effect). But the only reason we're even able to get up in that range is because we have heals supporting us. If I'm running solo and get in the middle of a mob of creeps, even with other freeps there, I'm going to be the first one targeted 1. because I'm a squishy lm and 2. they know if I get Ents, Lightning, and Gourd off, I'm effectively going to 5 or so of their morale bars down well below half (and probably kill anything without audacity).

I'm not saying I should be allowed to do that solo. The fact that we're so squishy counteracts our insane aoe dps when given the opportunity to get it off. However, you're darn right we should be able to do that against a solo warg or reaver. It's gotten to the point where if I'm toe to toe with a decent warg, most of my induction based skills will not get off. Against a reaver, it's not quite as bad, but I tend to be toe to toe with them significantly more often due to Resilience (which I will be the first to say was a totally necessary update for them).

I like that the kiting ability of lm's has been greatly reduced. Pre audacity, I could win most 1v1's against wargs and reavers without letting them touch me once after the very start of the fight. However, the fact that once we get in melee range, we're entirely screwed without the used of multiple cd's is a little silly. Reducing the effects of induction knockback, as the OP would said, would have very few effects beyond 1v1'ing or 1v2'ing on the lm. In pve, it'd do next to nothing. In raid v raid, if you have a raid on you, you're not getting anything off anyway. It in no way increases our dps and still would leave us pretty low on the freep food chain which I'm just fine with.

In short, totally ./signed.

Originally Posted by JDCass

In short, totally ./signed.

For me the point is the same, isn't the LM squishy ...

Lore master is a light armor class and is good what the LM is.

For sure need some update on pet and about some induction ( like daze or root ) but the point are the other light armored ...

Mini with 2/3k damage skill istant and 0 induction+ 100% healing ...
Rk istant skill 4/6k damage ... but can't self heal or only less hot ... anyway epic conclusion is already a big bust :P + healing debuff

Champ with bubble + sprint ... burg hips and more istant stun ...
Lore master need a trait for have istant stun but isn't really istant ... you need to stop you and daze when your skill hit the enemy ... you can lose like one sec for that ... and miss a good interrupt !

Anyway i think the other need a nerf !

This is what we expected when we first heard about audacity. I stopped playing my LM in the moors after that update, I am using my hunter now.

The solution is not that hard I think. Give us a skill with low CD that combined with a bonus set from the dps moors armour will give us setback immunity for X seconds. Should not be trait related, as outside of moors the induction set back should be back.

Example: Staff-sweep make us 4s setback immune when in the moors using the dps moors armour.

Combat for me in the moors is very predicable now. If I am solo and I get the jump on *most* creeps (a few high ranked wargs and reavers can take a massive beating, and I can't overcome that) I will win. I lead with Burning Embers and it's all downhill from there for the bad guy.

If I get jumped by anything r7 or above it's over but the crying. Audacity was touted to make fights last longer, I don't see it. When jumped I debuff first, firelore, windlore, whatever is needed, send the pet... I am usually half dead by then. I drop tar, go for a LotRD and a BE, hopefully there is enough left of me to kite... Most ranked creeps on my server eat a steady diet of cracked brands, so CC becomes useless.

In a raid, as a previous poster has mentioned, with support I am deadly if I get my crosshairs on a creep, the stuns, mezzes and slows (albeit tiny in duration) allow the group to reel in any creep, so yeah in a group with support we are great.

I really despise having to use parables to get skills off, those are the only non-athelas / celebrant items I carry, nothing store-bought, ever.

I still enjoy playing mine in the moors, but every night now I am the only LM on Silverlode that plays (there are a couple that make token appearances in the moors) but most LM's new to the moors get beat down early and never come back.

Originally Posted by Irin19

Combat for me in the moors is very predicable now. If I am solo and I get the jump on *most* creeps (a few high ranked wargs and reavers can take a massive beating, and I can't overcome that) I will win. I lead with Burning Embers and it's all downhill from there for the bad guy.

If I get jumped by anything r7 or above it's over but the crying. Audacity was touted to make fights last longer, I don't see it. When jumped I debuff first, firelore, windlore, whatever is needed, send the pet... I am usually half dead by then. I drop tar, go for a LotRD and a BE, hopefully there is enough left of me to kite... Most ranked creeps on my server eat a steady diet of cracked brands, so CC becomes useless.

In a raid, as a previous poster has mentioned, with support I am deadly if I get my crosshairs on a creep, the stuns, mezzes and slows (albeit tiny in duration) allow the group to reel in any creep, so yeah in a group with support we are great.

I really despise having to use parables to get skills off, those are the only non-athelas / celebrant items I carry, nothing store-bought, ever.

I still enjoy playing mine in the moors, but every night now I am the only LM on Silverlode that plays (there are a couple that make token appearances in the moors) but most LM's new to the moors get beat down early and never come back.

Pretty much this entirely.

The class is entirely too reliant on, as Akthuri put it, "getting the jump" on anything to be able to kill it. He was absolutely right. If I can BE a reaver 30 meters away, with a few exceptions, it's game over. But if it's r7 or so with a bit of audacity and they get a charge in on me (or a pounce w.e.), I stand little to no chance unless I blow more cd's than I'd care to ever do 1v1.

Originally Posted by JDCass

Pretty much this entirely.

The class is entirely too reliant on, as Akthuri put it, "getting the jump" on anything to be able to kill it. He was absolutely right. If I can BE a reaver 30 meters away, with a few exceptions, it's game over. But if it's r7 or so with a bit of audacity and they get a charge in on me (or a pounce w.e.), I stand little to no chance unless I blow more cd's than I'd care to ever do 1v1.

I don't die to reavers or wargs unless multiple jump me. Generally I would beat any reaver or warg (without hitting wisdom, lightning, ents, call to valar, tar, or kiting) on my server without dropping under 3k morale. The biggest problem with pvping on a LM IMO is having inductions setback so much from being damaged. No matter how skilled you are at mouse turning, the induction just will not go off if there is anything attacking you. This isn't gamebreaking but it's not fun having to strategically place every induction, including burning embers, which we should be able to get off easily. So to the OP, I agree we need less setbacks and interrupts on inductions from being damaged. What I do to counter the setbacks is I end up having to make tons of fast turns in the opposite direction to try to catch opponents off guard so I can get off part of an induction without them getting hits off since CC does pretty much nothing now. You should rarely be losing to reavers. Maybe a few wargs every now and then, depending on how skilled they are. Are you geared out?

./signed

This pretty much sums up my concerns exactly (as I posted on another thread that i found using search). When you Lotrd is continuously setback to interruption - i dont care if your the dalai lama, its time to ragequit.

I have to agree with this. What could also solve this is a new stance, where we give up something (pet or AOE maybe) to get rid of inductions altogether.

Originally Posted by Irin19

but most LM's new to the moors get beat down early and never come back.

This my LM is not my main - i am sitting at 7 Aud now 9.6K morale pool but i remember when i did not had aud and got 2 shotted by BAs.

If u are a casual player checking out the moors - you will get destroyed there nothing like unranked LM (or low ranked LM with no Aud) in the moors. Unfortunatelly such people will probably not go back.

In Regards to our Self Healz: My LM is Race of Man. WoC and Man heals are a joke compared to my Morale Pool (if they do not crit). Cannot say about WoC but Man heal has not increased since i started playing 3 years ago i think back when level cap was 60.

I'm not sure exactly what the issue people are having is when it comes to soloing/1v1s. I understand the problems with being an induction class and getting knockbacks, but we're by far the best equipped to deal with them (unless you count needful haste by hunters) because we're also a cc class, and we have a few non-induction based, highly damaging skill options for when things get bad. I almost never have issues 1v1 with wargs or reavers, or any other class that is known for consistently knocking back inductions, and I think it might have to do with not relying on purely inductions to do all the damage. I've been very surprised recently to see how few LMs still use Staff Strike cooldown on their LIs, especially considering I've consistently parsed much higher DPS using staff strike in my rotation even in PVE than without it (though that could have to do with my rotation). I'm definitely not saying I don't use induction skills in the moors, but I've had far more success not wasting time on an endless LoTRD induction and just using a short CC for my embers and ISG and working in some staff strikes and staff sweeps.

Anyway, I'm not trying to tell anyone how to play their class, as I'm sure everyone has a unique way of going about things; however I will say there are definitely ways to consistently win out there, and the LM is definitely not under powered in the moors when it comes to soloing/1v1s.

I agree with you but in order to be able to kill these high ranked creeps u need gear. IMO my LM is way more gear dependent than my Ward.

I need my Full Aud + Will Food + Perks + Resistance Food + ICMR regen food + Scrolls and tokens at all times to improve my chances.

And again I do not believe most random R6 LMs can beat a R12 Reaver - more or less u need the experience to do it and the gear.

Originally Posted by dookie123

I'm not sure exactly what the issue people are having is when it comes to soloing/1v1s. I understand the problems with being an induction class and getting knockbacks, but we're by far the best equipped to deal with them (unless you count needful haste by hunters) because we're also a cc class, and we have a few non-induction based, highly damaging skill options for when things get bad. I almost never have issues 1v1 with wargs or reavers, or any other class that is known for consistently knocking back inductions, and I think it might have to do with not relying on purely inductions to do all the damage. I've been very surprised recently to see how few LMs still use Staff Strike cooldown on their LIs, especially considering I've consistently parsed much higher DPS using staff strike in my rotation even in PVE than without it (though that could have to do with my rotation). I'm definitely not saying I don't use induction skills in the moors, but I've had far more success not wasting time on an endless LoTRD induction and just using a short CC for my embers and ISG and working in some staff strikes and staff sweeps.

Anyway, I'm not trying to tell anyone how to play their class, as I'm sure everyone has a unique way of going about things; however I will say there are definitely ways to consistently win out there, and the LM is definitely not under powered in the moors when it comes to soloing/1v1s.

^

It fascinates me to see how many LMs stand there in 1v1s with wargs/reavers spending half the fight trying to get off lightning or ents, or a single burning embers induction, only to find that they're 3/4 dead before they manage to get it off. Sometimes all you can rely on is 1/2 induction based skills throughout the entire fight, using movement/staff skills/wizard's fire (when you can't do anything else, might as well spam that, it does actually help especially if you've got tar down). Save your BE for when you can get off a blinding flash. You get a 2 second window in which you can actually get your induction off. Don't waste it. LMs are actually a very dangerous class at the moment because when played right, we have the capability to beat any creep class.

You CANNOT rely on most of your induction skills in a 1v1 against any reaver/warg who actually knows what he/she is doing. The only one you can really trust is ISG when traited with tactically adept, due to the extremely short induction. Another tip - don't bother wasting your ISG until you've hit successfully with staff sweep. Why? The crit proc. Such a simple thing you can do to increase the possibility of doing some nice burst damage, but generally under utilised. Don't forget your debuffs - get a SOP:C off and Fire-lore, trait in secret of tar and use it, stack dots when possible, but otherwise like Iinferno said, your best friends are staff strike, staff sweep, ISG, wizard's fire, BF+BE as a COMBINATION move. If you're kiting intelligently and think you have enough time to get another BE off (say, if your opponent is across the tar) do it. If you're sitting there being knocked back and you think sitting there casting a BE or (heaven forbid) test of will is going to help... Well, it won't. You'll die and blame turbine for making it too hard on LMs. Which isn't really true. We've got such a wide range of debuffs, flanks for self heals, a nice mixture of melee and tactical dps.

Not to mention BAs. Most BAs should be a cakewalk, plain and simple. The same for warleaders. Defilers you might struggle with but if you interrupt intelligently and have the DPS for it, you should generally be OK there as well. LMs, at present, are in a very good spot for 1v1s if played properly.

NOTE: I will admit, if you run into a branded warg or reaver in the open field who has max audacity and knows how to play their class, you will struggle a lot more. You can still win if you play intelligently and use kiting to get off inductions when possible rather than BFs, but without your CC it does become a bit more troublesome.

Originally Posted by Sellene

I agree with you but in order to be able to kill these high ranked creeps u need gear. IMO my LM is way more gear dependent than my Ward.

I need my Full Aud + Will Food + Perks + Resistance Food + ICMR regen food + Scrolls and tokens at all times to improve my chances.

And again I do not believe most random R6 LMs can beat a R12 Reaver - more or less u need the experience to do it and the gear.

I'll agree with you that the LM is to some extent gear dependent, but that goes for almost all the classes out there. However, I do thing you're exaggerating the need for gear a bit. I will consent, currently my LM is extremely well geared (4 FA staffs, 2 FA books, clasp necklace, about 4 bags of jewelry and about 5 armor sets including the stuff in the bank), but he hasn't always been, and although I can definitely say the gear makes a big difference in fights, but I cant remember a time when I would ever have considered my LM under powered or weak including when I had mediocre gear. In other words the LM is gear dependent to a point, but not so much so that it's impossible to win without the best of the best gear, just like every other class gear is an luxury but not a necessity. I also have never used perks, food, scrolls, or tokens in 1v1s, I'm sure they help chances but I've never seen any real need for them the way the LM has been for the past few years.

I hope my post doesn't sound condescending, I'm not trying to say "oh look at me i'm so awesome!" or anything like that. I'm just trying to point out that the LM really is a very powerful class in the moors right now, and maybe help some people who are struggling in 1v1s figure out some different approaches to fighting the more challenging of the creep classes.

Originally Posted by dookie123

I hope my post doesn't sound condescending, I'm not trying to say "oh look at me i'm so awesome!" or anything like that. I'm just trying to point out that the LM really is a very powerful class in the moors right now, and maybe help some people who are struggling in 1v1s figure out some different approaches to fighting the more challenging of the creep classes.

i have seen u 1v1 - i know u got skillz (I was on CM the other day scouting with a warg I am actually transfering my LM to E.)

The point i was trying to make was - i remember the first few times i brough my LM to the moors - no Aud and 7K morale pool - BAs used to 2/3 shot me down. So i know what a beating new LMs take at the beginning especially those with no Moors XP (running around without SI).

Of course even for new Creeps it is tuff at the beginning and it should be that way. I have seen RKs 2shot greenies as well.

So bottom line is u need Aud in order to beat good Creeps.

Originally Posted by Sellene

i have seen u 1v1 - i know u got skillz (I was on CM the other day scouting with a warg I am actually transfering my LM to E.)

The point i was trying to make was - i remember the first few times i brough my LM to the moors - no Aud and 7K morale pool - BAs used to 2/3 shot me down. So i know what a beating new LMs take at the beginning especially those with no Moors XP (running around without SI).

Of course even for new Creeps it is tuff at the beginning and it should be that way. I have seen RKs 2shot greenies as well.

So bottom line is u need Aud in order to beat good Creeps.

I'll agree with you there definitely, but that's the case for pretty much any class. I dont think that's any reason why the LM should get special treatment. When I came out on my rk with no audacity with no experience on him, or my hunter, I didn't stand a chance. I think that's an issue with the costs of audacity rather than the power of the LM.

What i don't understand is: why introducing a stat like audacity (or resilience in the 3-letters-game) and not decreasing damage and CC in the Moors in general?
Who think's it's fun to be killed by 2 shots?
Why isn't there any startetset with audacity to mae equipping for the Moors more fun?
I don't visit the Moors cause I don't think it's fun to be there without audacity, so why should I be there?
To be able to get audacity equip til it becomes fun? Why can't it be fun from the start?

Originally Posted by Tatharil

What i don't understand is: why introducing a stat like audacity (or resilience in the 3-letters-game) and not decreasing damage and CC in the Moors in general?
Who think's it's fun to be killed by 2 shots?
Why isn't there any startetset with audacity to mae equipping for the Moors more fun?
I don't visit the Moors cause I don't think it's fun to be there without audacity, so why should I be there?
To be able to get audacity equip til it becomes fun? Why can't it be fun from the start?

Thats kind of the challenge about moors you have to start from 1 audicity and get more as you rank improves if freeps could just get the gear without doing anything in moors then why should they bother going there?

and since creeps start at 1 it would be unfair if freep had more as when they start there.

My LM is a lowbie, but I always wondered why the lore skills self rooted the LM. Kiting with lore skills (especially with their long animations) would make LMs that much better without making a change at all.

Originally Posted by Rafnman

Thats kind of the challenge about moors you have to start from 1 audicity and get more as you rank improves if freeps could just get the gear without doing anything in moors then why should they bother going there?

and since creeps start at 1 it would be unfair if freep had more as when they start there.

Why not reducing the overall damage and CC in the moors on either side and adding some useful PvMP boni to the sets.
Moors aren't fun without Moors equip, but you need to go to the Moors to get this equip...

You don't visit ToO in yellow questgear, but you have to start in the moors without audacity.
Audacity itself as an itembonus is wrong in my opinion. The better solution would be reduced damage and CC in the Moors without any items. The Moors items should have useful Moors stats and boni, like moral, short setbackimmunity etc.

- XX% damage and yy% cc-duration in the Moors and everything would be fine.

If audacity is the only reason to get the moors-sets, then the sets should be reworked. Who needs radiance 2.0?

Originally Posted by Tatharil

Why not reducing the overall damage and CC in the moors on either side and adding some useful PvMP boni to the sets.
Moors aren't fun without Moors equip, but you need to go to the Moors to get this equip...

You don't visit ToO in yellow questgear, but you have to start in the moors without audacity.
Audacity itself as an itembonus is wrong in my opinion. The better solution would be reduced damage and CC in the Moors without any items. The Moors items should have useful Moors stats and boni, like moral, short setbackimmunity etc.

- XX% damage and yy% cc-duration in the Moors and everything would be fine.

If audacity is the only reason to get the moors-sets, then the sets should be reworked. Who needs radiance 2.0?

You do say something there but i kinda like the idea of you gaining something from actually playing moors maybe you should get audacity for each rank you get or something like that.

I would love if LM's no induction skills were usable on the move. I truly think this is very little to ask as the skills have no induction. It would give the LM alot better survivability as well with out changing the class much.

Originally Posted by Irin19

Combat for me in the moors is very predicable now. If I am solo and I get the jump on *most* creeps (a few high ranked wargs and reavers can take a massive beating, and I can't overcome that) I will win. I lead with Burning Embers and it's all downhill from there for the bad guy.

If I get jumped by anything r7 or above it's over but the crying. Audacity was touted to make fights last longer, I don't see it. When jumped I debuff first, firelore, windlore, whatever is needed, send the pet... I am usually half dead by then. I drop tar, go for a LotRD and a BE, hopefully there is enough left of me to kite... Most ranked creeps on my server eat a steady diet of cracked brands, so CC becomes useless.

In a raid, as a previous poster has mentioned, with support I am deadly if I get my crosshairs on a creep, the stuns, mezzes and slows (albeit tiny in duration) allow the group to reel in any creep, so yeah in a group with support we are great.

I really despise having to use parables to get skills off, those are the only non-athelas / celebrant items I carry, nothing store-bought, ever.

I still enjoy playing mine in the moors, but every night now I am the only LM on Silverlode that plays (there are a couple that make token appearances in the moors) but most LM's new to the moors get beat down early and never come back.

I'll come play with you some day Ak, once I finally get leveled up to 75. Just haven't been back long enough and I'm playing creep because it's more challenging...but I digress.

I think overall that LMs need one simple change; make a few more of our damage skills useable while moving. That's a HUGE plus and makes a big difference. Since LOTRO has terrible detection when it comes to determining whether your moving or not, giving LMs the ability to use BE or LotRD while moving would be a game changer. Make it a trait or just change the skill(s).

It wouldn't affect group play all that much because, well let's face it, a well-played group of freeps will ROFLstomp pretty much any group of creeps (unless they're all R10+ with heals) but solo LMs are pretty weak now and this would certainly increase survivability.

1v1 I have no problems on my LM. As long as the creep isn't branded I can easily take them down. Branded is a little more difficult because we rely on that initial stun/daze to get our first BE off, after that it is not so bad. Audacity helps us a bit because it lengthens fights. The longer the fight the more DoTs we get and the more our pet flanks.

However, when there are two or more creeps hitting on us at once it is impossible to do anything. I guess that is my biggest complaint because so many times I get the creep down to 1k and another one comes by and I just can't do anything after that.

Really all we need is a red trait that stops set backs, or maybe make that the effect of air lore. If I can induct I am in good shape, if I can't I die.

Inductions make sense to me -- it's a way to gate outgoing DPS to prevent a skill/class from doing too much damage. However, setbacks to inductions, because they aren't capped, can make a skill unusable. I don't see that as a valuable game-play mechanic -- it prevents the Devs from adding/improving/utilizing induction-based skills since against multiple opponents, the skill becomes unusable, and of course it is extremely frustrating to the player who effectively has one or more skills locked out. That's particularly bad for LMs who have so many induction-based skills, but affects other classes as well. There's tech in place for removing setbacks entirely -- rune-keepers can utilize that on one of their induction skills. What seems to be lacking is a setback cap -- something another game (which I won't name to avoid flames <grin>) utilizes. That cap limits how much the induction can be setback -- after the cap, the induction skill becomes non-interruptable.

Anyway, if there is no tech to place a cap on setbacks, such that an induction skill will ultimately fire no matter how many opponents are trying to interrupt it, then I would really like to see some way for LMs to have setback-free skills in the same manner that RKs have a setback skill (at least allow a red-traited LM to have setback free Burning Embers!).

You see all these people telling you how do able it is.. the you look at there stars.... yeah, I hate my lm in the moors I've geared her up two first agers one for raiding and one for my pvp.. No raid.. solo play= 0 rating. I have more fun on my warg, my kill death ratio is better.. I'm not much of a star hugger.. all in all the lm is just not fun anymore. bETTER OFF rollin a champ or warden if you perfer to solo.

Let's just say it's a good thing we can melee or we'd be SOL.

Timing is everything for a LM. Don't just stand there trying to get off a skill...

I agree with most of these posts, I run just under 8k moral and I survive fine. but get a half decent warg or reaver with the jump on me im toast due to induction set backs. but it is what it is and I dont expect any serious changes to help us with our induction issues. I wish they would though. I have noticed a k/d ratio drop though I was at 24/1 before mirkwood and due to work I had to stop playing, came back right after isengard released and now im sitting at 17/1. I mostly solo. Im not as good as the numbers show because FF is such a low population of pvmp players.

I totally agree lm's need some improvements but overall it's a great class, alot of fun to play and the best of all, it's not an OP class. At 1v1 i usually spar the higher ranked only, r9 and above mostly(sometimes a r7-9 if skilled) and those matches end with me winning some of the times or losing some of the times. I agree that the class is not so strong and you need to think about every move and it takes a long time to master the skills for that but it's so much fun to do so, it's a real challenge.
I talked to a r12 reaver who i spar alot and win around 50-60% of the time, he agreed with me that the class is weak but that against rk's(the lm's close relative, light armour) he stands no chance at all which in my eyes is just OP.


True i always try using as few cd's as possible, trusting debuffs, flanks and cc. This is what adds to the challenge, currently i use around 1cd like a heal or ents on him every spar and that's the fun and challenge, you don't need big blasting skills, TIME YOUR CC that way you get ENOUGH time to cast a cd like BE. WE ARE THE CLASS THAT THINKS? IN MY OPINION, no suicide runs most of the times, no trusting in big blasts but timing and thinking about what you do, planning.
You just have to realize that playing an lm is not playing a champ, if you want to aoe and survive easily go play a champ, if you wnat aoe and a challenge go play an lm

You can win at 1v1 but just adapt to what changed, true audacity &&&&s cc but you can still cast a quick BE with blinding flash in time, staf strike and sweep are extremely well skills, use them in the say way wargs use skills and kite trough fire of gourd. NEVER NEVER count on doing a cd skill with LotRD, it's a small damage skill, that's all.

Just remember that if you're a good lm, try using no cd's against creeps for fun and to keep it fair against them.

Finally i want to say that i do this cause of a high defensive build that allows me to survive alot, i have a 33.5%tact mit, 9k morale, 24%resist.
My tact is 109.6% with 15.2%crit chance(i'm trying to improve this)

I win alot of fights, when i got jumped by a r13 warg i won and i never saw him again, he's a tribie on creep and he said he understood that he shouldn't gank me or he'd get killed. Alot of wargs still need to learn that about me, if 2wargs r7 and below shop up, i'll get atleast 1 down.
When i got jumped at ta lawn by 3wargs(r5-8-7) i killed 1 the other at 300 and the other at 3k morale, it's all about how you choose to play, again staff strike and sweep with fire lore are critical, i did pop everything i had though.

On my server we have a r15 reaver, i spar him once in a while, he usually ends up at 4 out of 17k morale or dead, which means it's usually about crits or misses-resists.
Lm's can take on everyone they want, it's the just the image some new lm's give of of being weak that makes the class gets attacked alot.
Honestly it's a good balanced class that's far from OP but not bad either, it's just &&&& for new lm's to start out.

Also something i learned from playing creep is that alot of creep raid leaders like to go for lm's first is cause they do so much damage which i can totally agree, the improved sticky gourd is amazing, up to 4k on r5-6 creeps, ents has the same dam but an aoe stun to it, and lightning....
lm's have extreme aoe dam if left unchecked, i get why some like to take those out first.


I'd like to mention, yes a change can come cause RoR will shatter this nice balance i suppose, with alot of creeps getting boosts, the lm will need some specific changes, perhaps like defilers, shorter inductions or improvement of cc.

(srry for the long post)