Thread: Gandalf the White vs The Witch King of Angmar

Originally Posted by Vilnas

I could be mistaken, but it is my understanding that not all of the Nine were present when Gandalf was attacked at Weathertop. Just a point of clarification - I don't mean this as a comment on Gandalf's power one way or the other.

There were 9. At dawn, Gandalf went south in the hopes of drawing them away from Weathertop so that Frodo (whom Gandalf knew was on his way) could pass there. Only 4 followed Gandalf, 5 remained sneaking around Weathertop.

Reps all around, great discussion thread...loving it.
After having read Tolkien's books concerning ME many times (though it's at least 20 years ago, so forgive me one or the other incosistency on my side ), I would surely agree, that the WiKi was a match for Gandalf, but finally Gandalf would prevail.
On the other hand, I think it is dangerous to just eluminate the strengths' of mind, skill of arms, etc. as the decisive arguments for who would best whom.
Both, the WiKi and Gandalf have had their bad moments:
- the WiKi being sneaked up and stabbed by a hobbit and finished off by an overambitious girl just grown out of puberty,
- and well Gandalf wasn't far from taking the final splash by jumping off a tree in a desperate attempt to take some of the goblins and wolfs with him if you remember from the Hobbit, after the party of Gandalf and the Dwarfs had escaped their capture by the goblins in the Misty Mountains - not very convincing either for a maia and one of the most powerful in ME....
Though the story of the Hobbit has to be seen in a different conceptual light then LotR, nonetheless it thus, if nothing else, clearly highlights Tolkien's "inconsistencies", or is it actually one of the general hidden themes which lead through all of ME history, that ".....even the smallest person (circumstance) can change the course of the future".......
Here an Istari having been chased up a tree by a number of goblins and some wolfs, later destroying a Balrog (though being "defeated" himself as well...) and facing off the biggest evil next to Sauron in "modern" ME times, and there the head of the nine, second in command after Sauron, being stabbed by Hobbit and finished off by beforementioned girl, while priorly having succesfully ruined kings, kingdoms and cities over the last few thousand years...., ah well shame on you Mr. Nazgul.

In the end, I must admit, I guess they were kind of equal in power in ME (!), but required special circumstances to beat the other: the WiKi had good chances to best Gandalf when the surrounding conditions were right (close to Sauron's power, darkness, fear all arround him, etc.), and Gandalf had good chances, if the conditions were favourable for him (hope prevails, enlightened spirits, etc.).

Just my thoughts.

Originally Posted by Mithernil

In the end, I must admit, I guess they were kind of equal in power in ME (!), but required special circumstances to beat the other: the WiKi had good chances to best Gandalf when the surrounding conditions were right (close to Sauron's power, darkness, fear all arround him, etc.), and Gandalf had good chances, if the conditions were favourable for him (hope prevails, enlightened spirits, etc.).

Just my thoughts.

I agree with this assessment.

Originally Posted by Mithernil

Reps all around, great discussion thread...loving it.
After having read Tolkien's books concerning ME many times (though it's at least 20 years ago, so forgive me one or the other incosistency on my side ), I would surely agree, that the WiKi was a match for Gandalf, but finally Gandalf would prevail.
On the other hand, I think it is dangerous to just eluminate the strengths' of mind, skill of arms, etc. as the decisive arguments for who would best whom.
Both, the WiKi and Gandalf have had their bad moments:
- the WiKi being sneaked up and stabbed by a hobbit and finished off by an overambitious girl just grown out of puberty,
- and well Gandalf wasn't far from taking the final splash by jumping off a tree in a desperate attempt to take some of the goblins and wolfs with him if you remember from the Hobbit, after the party of Gandalf and the Dwarfs had escaped their capture by the goblins in the Misty Mountains - not very convincing either for a maia and one of the most powerful in ME....
Though the story of the Hobbit has to be seen in a different conceptual light then LotR, nonetheless it thus, if nothing else, clearly highlights Tolkien's "inconsistencies", or is it actually one of the general hidden themes which lead through all of ME history, that ".....even the smallest person (circumstance) can change the course of the future".......
Here an Istari having been chased up a tree by a number of goblins and some wolfs, later destroying a Balrog (though being "defeated" himself as well...) and facing off the biggest evil next to Sauron in "modern" ME times, and there the head of the nine, second in command after Sauron, being stabbed by Hobbit and finished off by beforementioned girl, while priorly having succesfully ruined kings, kingdoms and cities over the last few thousand years...., ah well shame on you Mr. Nazgul.

Just my thoughts.

You have to remember Gandalf the Grey was not allowed to wield his full power, he was known as a great wizard, not an all-powerful demi-god. Another point to reflect on is that Gandalf the White's power was pure and not corrupted like Sauron's. The Witch King possessed (or was possessed by) a smaller amount of corrupted power and although he was a creature of the Shadow, he had been a man...and no man, not even Beren, could face the full power of a Maia. And lastly, as has been explained, Gandalf was in the GUISE of man and not a man. I personally do not believed he fell under the prophecy.

Yup - I skip watching that scene also. Some people just think that The Witch King is stronger because he taunted Gandalf with the words: "Old fool, old fool! This is my hour, Do you not know death when you see it?'
Gandalf could have easily done the same. If they engaged in a one versus one(somehow), Gandalf would've been the winner.

Originally Posted by Mithernil

- and well Gandalf wasn't far from taking the final splash by jumping off a tree in a desperate attempt to take some of the goblins and wolfs with him if you remember from the Hobbit, after the party of Gandalf and the Dwarfs had escaped their capture by the goblins in the Misty Mountains - not very convincing either for a maia and one of the most powerful in ME....

Actually if i'm remembering things correctly - there were several hundred wargs initially, followed later by what was probably the entire contents of goblin town. So I don't think we are talking about just a few wolves and goblins, more like 2 armies.

Maia or not I think overwhelming numbers are going to win out.

So I don't think that particular incident is reflecting too badly on Gandalf's uberness at all.